Here's why I am accepting the vote numbers (for now)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

The popular vote is reflected in all of the close/swing state totals as well, and they also compare positively to 2000 totals.
Pop. Vote = 51-48.
OHIO (51%)(48.5%)
IOWA (50.1%)(49.2%)
FLORIDA (52.1%)(47.1%)
NEVADA (50.5%)(47.9%)
NEW MEXICO(50%)(48.9%)
COLORADO(52.2%)(46.6%)

I am not saying there wasn't EV fraud, but the numbers generally agree in an across the board analysis.
If someone is breaking it down in a more detailed analysis to prove otherwise, please steer me to it.

I also believe the exit polls were flawed because a lot of Bush Republicans simply refused to participate. If anyone has evidence to the contrary I am open to that too.
I believe a lot of the evangelicals would not want to do anything to cooperate with the much hated 'MSM'.

[bullimiami]

1. you see and you do not believe.

this was a landslide the other way my friend. you know what bush is, what he has done, he has his base but he surely got less votes than 4 years ago. the rest is kerrys.

[On the Road]

2. How Did Bush Steal Votes in Democratic Counties with Paper

punchcards or optical scan? The huge increase in Republican turnout was deep and widespread. The polls were correct -- Kerry had a clear lead in the late polls. It's simply that an amazing number of registered Republicans turned up at the polls.


On Edit: Please show me something different. I don't rule out fraud at all. I just want something to go on other than a claim it couldn't have happenned.

[LisaL]

3. The paper ballots are added up

through a tabulator (computer).
Unless you re-count them manually, you can easily cheat with paper ballots.
:eyes:

[On the Road]

7. How Did All These Bush Moles Infiltrate Dem-Controlled Precincts?

I'm not saying that you can't cheat with paper. You simply need control of the vote-counting process.

Look at the county and precinct-level results. The effect was across the board geographically.
:eyes:

[Carolab]

20. It's not that, either

the results from the precincts are tabulated at a CENTRAL location, under the protection/guidance etc. of the elections supervisors/secretary of state.

The NATIONAL secretary of state, by the way, is MARY KIFFMEYER, the secretary of state in Minnesota. She has been in constant communication with Hans von Spakovsky--the head of Ashcroft's Voting Section--throughout the year trying to figure out ways to disenfranchise voters. She even tried to get a whole bunch of registrations thrown out in Minnesota from our two largest counties--but a judge stopped it. She had designed a new, longer, more complicated registration card and insisted that people needed to use that instead (at the very end, of course). Also, this year the ovals we had to fill in on our ballots were bigger than in previous elections so it took forever to fill each in solidly with a ballpoint pen.

[On the Road]

28. OK, So Both the Central Location and the Local Precinct Know the Count,

and that should prevent the central location from changing the totals, no?

If the central count doesn't match what was reported by the precinct, there's a problem. I thought the local and state numbers were reconciled before a count is certified -- if they're not, they certainly should be.

I'm really glad to see so many people poring over the details trying to find fraud. It may exist at a local level. But the trend of very heavy Republican turnout was a national phenomenon across Democratic- and Republican-controlled areas.

[LisaL]

4. How about this for a start?

Magical extra votes that are added up to Bush's lead to OH. Apparently, more people voted for Bush than there were actual voters. The only reason it was noticed is because it was simply impossible for Bush to get these votes since there was not enough actual voters to vote for him.
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/election/election-president.php?story=dispatch/2004/11/05/20041105-A6-01.html

[On the Road]

13. I Think Every Report of Type Should be Followed Up

And having more votes than voters certainly qualifies. Maybe an egregious example like this is what it takes for a statewide investigation. The articles says that all polling stations are being verified before the votes are certified.

I completely believe that fraud was possibly and probably committed at the local level. I do not believe that a 51-48% Bush win proves fraud until it's shown more specifically.

[FlaGranny]

5. The most interesting thing happened

in the early morning hours of 11/3 when the West Coast votes started getting tabulated and added to the totals. These three west coast states all went for Kerry but the vote margin between Bush and Kerry INCREASED. I watched it happen, hour after hour. Everyone was expecting it to decrease when these votes started coming in. More votes started coming in for Kerry than for Bush at that point, but the margin for Bush increased!!!

[jdj]

9. optical scan ballots are read electronically.

also:

there are stat. analys. all over this board, to not find them, just don't look for them.

[On the Road]

17. A Human Being Has to Read Those Ballots

and for fraud to occur, that person has to be a Republican operative with the will and opportunity to commit fraud and not be detected. To believe that happened in Democratically controlled precincts counties requires a huge suspension of disbelief.

In the last election in Florida, you had some counties with a majority of Democratic voters whose local government was Republican. That is a situation ripe for fraud. And in some counties, such there's prima facieevidence that fraud was committed, such as Escambia County:

http://www.failureisimpossible.com/essays/escambia.htm

Any irregularities or strange patterns should be investigated. I'm glad people are doing this. I wish that people (including Greg Palast) would WAIT to make charges of a stolen election until evidence of this kind emerges.

[robbedvoter]

6. I am with Crispin Miller in wandering about the extra 8 million

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/11/04/election_reactions/
index1.html
"
First of all, this election was definitely rigged. I have no doubt
about it. It's a statistical impossibility that Bush got 8 million more
votes than he got last time. In 2000, he got 15 million votes from
right-wing Christians, and there are approximately 19 million of them
in the country. They were eager to get the other 4 million. That was
pretty much Karl Rove's strategy to get Bush elected.

But given Bush's low popularity ratings and the enormous number of new
voters -- who skewed Democratic -- there is no way in the world that
Bush got 8 million more votes this time. I think it had a lot to do
with the electronic voting machines.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

10. Here's my feelings about the 13 million new voters

9/11 and the ensuing fear- real or artificially whipped up by Bush, would absolutely HAVE to bring more people to the polls.
Also, the Bush strategy was designed to bring people out to vote against Kerry- whom they portrayed as best they could as being a threat to their safety- ABK if you will. Kerry's apparent "flip floppy" attitude (known as nuance) is how they painted Kerry as being untrustworthy in the WOT.

[Pirate Smile]

8. One problem we had with the popular vote is that CA and NY didn't vote

in large numbers. The percentage turnout I saw today on Washington Journal was low - CA was dead last. Non-swing state Dem voters did not turn out in the huge numbers they could have and then we would have won the popular vote.

[msongs]

11. about CA you may be incorrect because

according to KNX radio Los Angeles this morning turnout was a record, surpassing turnout for Clinton in 92.

Msongs
Riverside CA

2005 Beatles calendars out now
www.msongs.com/gallery_three.htm

[Pirate Smile]

15. Was that in numbers of voters or percentage who voted? I'm talking about

the percentage.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. Yep. New Jersey we underperformed as well.

Bush 1,284,173 (40.3%) Gore 1,788,850 (56.1%) Nader 94,554 (3.0%) Others 19,649 (0.6%) Total 3,187,226
Bush 1,587,494 (46.5%) Kerry 1,799,320 (52.7%) Nader 18,614 (0.5%) Others 11,058 (.003%) Total 3,416,686

Bush performed 124% better than 2000
Kerry did only a fraction of a percent better than Gore, and WORSE than Nader and Gore combined.

[nickfaldo7]

12. I agree

I don't want to give up either, but the fact of the matter is that the percentage of the popular vote 51% to 48% in favor of Bush is basically the same percentages that Bush had over Kerry in the polls leading up to the election, including the day of the election.

...and let's face it there are more stupid people than there are smart people in America.

Two other thoughts:
1. Evangelical Christianity is not religion...it is a cult.
2. As far as voter fraud and conspiracy, there is no honor among thieves. I can't fathom that a monumental conspiracy by Diebold or any other election-related entity could get away with widespread fraud. Someone, even the most-diehard conservative, would talk.

[silvershadow]

16. I would tend to agree with your point about fraud, except

that this is nothing new. They have been doing it for years, and perfecting it. It probably wasn't centrally organized, as in a giant conspiracy, because it didn't have to be. It was more like a series of smaller conspiracies, all local. (All politics is local, don't ever forget that). They just concentrated on stealing Ohio from us. Nothing will ever make me believe otherwise.

[RBHam]

18. It was done by a hacker

Anyone with the right code can change the numbers.

It IS INDEED a grand conspiracy.

The four voting machine companies are all owned and operated by Republicans. The software was written by Christian reconstructionists.

Go to www.blackboxvoting.org and try to save your country before it's too late.

[nickfaldo7]

19. i see your point

but i need something substantial...there is a pulitzer prize waiting for the journalist who figures it out.

[shanti]

29. pulitzer? i doubt it

more like a body bag...:-(

[jacksonian]

21. BIG QUESTION

if the Bush people avoided the exit polls like the plague - HOW DID MORALITY GET TO BE THE TOP ISSUE IN THE EXIT POLLS?

1) Maybe the exit polls were right.

2) Or the moral issues aren't what people think they are. Maybe the left has morals as well.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. Well then just add 3% to that total as well

so that 25% thought moral issues were the most important.

[jacksonian]

23. it's still a circular argument

if the exit polls are gamed, why do we see what we see?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. the exit polls are flawed

I said this Tuesday as everyone began to prematurely celebrate.

[jacksonian]

25. then the information is no good, right?

so who knows what?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. It's not 100% good is all

Shit, according to the experts, even the real polls are fallible for at least .1%.

[jacksonian]

27. ah, see you had to change the position

before there was talk of something systemic: a different reason R's would talk to pollsters vs D's. Because in order to explain the results, which do not seen like random error, you have to say there was real thing out there. Maybe you're right, I don't know. Then there is this claim of values coming up in exit polls that were skewed toward Kerry. Dems for values? Not so far fetched. Maybe there's an explanation for both phenomena. I don't know.

That is exactly my point, and error is another factor. We really don't know.