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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:02 AM
Original message
Madsen's latest: any inquiring minds who want to know?

From JamBoi:

I had the privilege to talk to investigative reporter Wayne Madsen recently and found that his Votergate 2004 investigation has taken an interesting turn. He now strongly suspects that a number of interlocking networks of true-believing religious right Dominionists and cynical corporate NeoConservatives have come together to perpetrate amazingly widespread vote rigging. He believes the election fraud was so wide spread that it not only tipped the election in Ohio in favor of Bush, but padded the national popular vote in favor of Bush and turned a number of U.S. Senate and House races in favor of the Republican contestants.

<snip>


http://jamboi.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/22/23354/955
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. He is right. The Christian takeover of our vote and country....
This is no theory! These people are nuts and have achieved their goal with this last election theft...

http://memes.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3667&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

<snip>

Voting in the USA: A Tale of Two Brothers


You've heard of the song The Day the Music Died? Well, today is the Day Democracy Died. Actually, that day probably came about 4 years ago, the first time Bush stole the election. Or even earlier, as I will reveal....

Once upon a time there were two brothers: Bob and Todd Urosevich. In the 1980's, with the financial backing of the right-wing extremist Christian billionaire Howard Ahmanson, Bob and Todd founded a company called American Information Systems (AIS) that built voting machines. They were also certified to count votes.


It is interesting to note that back then there was no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry. Even more interesting is the fact that this is still true today. Not even the Federal Election Commission (FEC) has a complete list of all the companies that count votes in U.S. elections.


http://www.dangerouscitizen.com/Articles/1090.aspx

<snip>

The mysterious reference is apparently a note of thanks to Howard F. Ahmanson Jr. and his wife Roberta, a wealthy and secretive Orange County, Calif., couple who have generously funded the anti-evolution movement and other right-wing causes that advance their fundamentalist Christian outlook.

Howard Ahmanson, however, is no ordinary fat-cat. The savings and loan heir has maintained a long-time relationship with Christian Reconstructionism, an extreme faction of the Religious Right that seeks to replace American democracy with a harsh fundamentalist theocracy.

Reconstructionists believe conservative Christians should take "dominion" over American society. Under their version of "biblical law," the death penalty would be required for over a dozen categories of offenders, including adulterers, homosexuals, witches, incorrigible children and those who spread "false" religions. They regard the teaching of evolution as part of a "war against Genesis."

Ahmanson served for over two decades on the board of directors of the Chalcedon Foundation, Rousas J. Rushdoony's Reconstructionist think tank that serves as the intellectual center of the movement. Ahmanson has also generously supported the Foundation's work.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. do these types of "christians" exist? Absolutely. I've gone to church
with them in the past. There is almost a sort of "take-over" superiority in their "salvation" and they do believe in having an end-times event occur ...
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. the worst and scariest sort of "Christian"...
and not unlike the Taliban except they have a lot more power and money...

:scared:
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
100. yes, and they're all leftbehindseries reading nutbars
who think they're getting sucked up into heaven because God's on their side. Someone should clue them in that the rapture happened yesterday and all the innocents were sucked up via tidal wave, they missed the boat I guess.

I also know a few of these people personally, they're completely mental and very unbalanced and very self righteous. They believe in God's mercy alright, but only for their kind, not for those who are different from THEM.

Hypocrites to the nth degree.
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zimba Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
71. Please, its not Christian types, its
psuedo Christian types. Just like it's not voter fraud, it's election fraud. Okay, yes?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. I agree...
I should have put Christians in quotes as I usually do!

Welcome to DU zimba! :)
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #71
90. It's FAKE PHONY POWERMONGER Christian Types; Not really Christians
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 11:12 AM by lonestarnot
More like a cult than Christ like. People who are lead around by a nose ring, that do not consider anything but what they are told by their leader. Afraid to think or oppose.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
84. A History of Vote Rigging: 1933-2004 (from www.bilderberg.org/wwiii.htm)
Edited on Fri Dec-24-04 01:31 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
(This is a fascinating history of the forces behind election fraud that range from Depression-era corrupt businessmen to Cold Warriors to theocratic billionares. They've spent 70 years preventing democracy in the USA for the profits of conquest and the glory of...themselves.

I don't think this is being handed out in orientation packets for 19 year-old army recruits on their way to Iraq for an 'up-armored'...Fallujan Freedom Frenzy. But it damn sure ought to be in high schools and colleges. Give the gift of education to the young folks in your life this holiday season.

Sources are down at the bottom, pun intended.-JOM)
--------------------------------------------------
Vote Rigging: how organised criminals have stolen U.S. democracy
    Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 06:18 PM   
   
    Hi-Tech computer voting is now the order-of-the-day in America. In 
October 2002, the US Administration passed the Help America Vote Act 
(HAVA) which authorised the funding of $4 billion for states to use the 
Direct Recording Election system (DRE) equipment which would have to 
meet certain standards (set by the Act ) by the year 2006, at which 
point, they (the states) will be under obligation to have purchased 
said new equipment. As of December 2003, 36 states have agreed to these 
obligations. <1> Note that in DRE, votes are stored electronically, 
and, as such , therefore under proprietary ownership of the equipment 
companies: the voter is therefore denied access!

As always, the above needs to be seen within an historical context if 
it is to be properly assessed, and the following facts, at first 
glance, may seem to be of little pertinence to the opening paragraph - 
but, hopefully, this will be clarified by the further facts that follow.

In 1933, in answer to the economic Depression that prevailed then, FDR 
set up the Business Advisory Council (BAC) - a cabal of prestigious 
corporate capitalists who would subsequently become a crucial adjunct 
to the US Department of Commerce. This depression lasted throughout the 
‘30’s into the very early ‘40’s as evidenced by queues of jobless, 
among whom it soon became common knowledge that there was no need to 
apply at certain companies if you were either a Jew or Irish.

In 1961, JFK was elected president by a very small majority and 
appointed Republicans to all his cabinet posts -but that of Secretary 
of State. Not long after, as noted by G. William Domhoff in his book 
‘The Powers That Be’: the BAC had “...made a unilateral withdrawal from 
its quasi governmental status in 1962”, and dropping the term 
‘Advisory’ from its title, it would from now on be known as ‘The 
Business Council’ (BC). The reason for this break in relations was that 
JFK’s Secretary of Commerce, Luther H. Hodges, had demanded a more 
open-style Council, the chairman of which, Ralph Cordinger (of General 
Electric), had become involved in a gigantic price-fixing scandal in 
the electrical equipment industry. As a result, the Council declared it 
would become an ‘independent organisation’ which would offer its advice 
to all agencies of government. Domhoff added “Despite the fact that the 
Business Council was no longer an official advisory group to the 
Department of Commerce, it continued the prominent role it had 
developed during the Eisenhower administration, supplying 
businesspeople for government positions and meeting regularly in Hot 
Springs with government officials. It was especially close to the 
Johnson administration.”<2> The BC was not pleased with JFK.

(The following events of JFK’s presidency will, of necessity, heavily 
rely on Mark Lane’s book, ‘Plausible Denial’ - inasmuch as it is the 
most comprehensive published coverage of the assassination - to say 
nothing of the attendant cover-ups. After all, Lane was personally 
involved in much of the legal activity in this affair, and had much 
access to documents)

But before going further, it is important to note that JFK had 
inherited another brewing problem: namely, the Cuban revolution of 1959 
had led to the expulsion from that island of the American Mafia, who 
were soon co-opted by the CIA in the latter’s secretive plans to 
‘remove’ Castro. A dangerous precedent was hereby set in motion.

In April 1961, the CIA-led ‘Bay of Pigs’ operation against Cuba failed, 
and, as Col. L. Fletcher Prouty confirms to Mark Lane, JFK decided to 
dismantle the CIA by initially firing top officers Allen Dulles 
(Director), Cabell (deputy Director - whose brother was Mayor of 
Dallas), and Bissell (Director for Plans). Prouty added that “..The 
task of breaking up the CIA was scheduled for 1964, after the foreseen 
Kennedy re-election”. (NB: From ‘55 to ‘63, Prouty had held the 
following key positions: chief of special operations in (a) the Joint 
Chiefs of Staff; (b) the Office of the Secretary of Defense; and (c) 
The US Air Force.) <3>

In the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs fiasco, JFK set up the Cuban study 
group to determine the future of the CIA (Dulles was part of that 
group!). This resulted in the three National Security Action Memoranda 
(NSAM) 55, 56, & 57 aimed at drastically curbing any future CIA 
activities. This turned out to be a somewhat futile gesture on 
Kennedy’s part - the illegal activities of the CIA continued. <4>

Soon after being elected, and on the advice of his administration 
(mainly Republicans, as noted above), he had authorised a 12-fold 
increase in US troops to be sent to Vietnam - to the satisfaction of 
the Military-Industrial complex. It did not take him long to realise 
his mistake. In 1963, now determined to withdraw the 16,000 American 
troops from Vietnam, JFK sent Gen. Maxwell Taylor and Sec. of Defense 
Robert McNamara to Vietnam to ‘prepare’ a report known as the Trip 
Report (already drawn up by Maj. Gen. Victor Krulak & Col. Prouty) 
recommending such withdrawal. (Understandable, when it is recalled 
that, as Senator, he (JFK) had visited Vietnam in 1951 and written the 
following complaint in his book “Strategy of Peace” (p.89): “In 
Indo-China we have allied ourselves to the desperate effort of a French 
régime to hang on to the remnants of empire.There is no broad general 
support of the native Vietnam government among the people of that 
area.”)

Now, this Trip report was duly signed and delivered to the president. 
Result? The very crucial NSAM 263 of 2nd October 1963 which called for 
the immediate removal of 1000 ‘military advisers’ and a timetable for 
the withdrawal of all remaining troops. According to Col. Prouty: “The 
Pentagon was outraged. JFK was a curseword in the corridors”. On the 
10th of November 1963, Prouty was posted to the South Pole by Maj. Gen. 
Edward G. Lansdale, CIA liaison to McNamara. He was therefore not in 
Dallas when JFK was assassinated on November the 22nd. <5>

The dissimulative manner in which the investigation of the 
assassination was conducted by the police, the FBI, the Warren 
Commission, and the conniving media - all accompanied by numerous 
contradictory statements - naturally aroused suspicion in the eyes of 
many, including witnesses to the assassination. Now, suspicion, in the 
absence of rational facts, prompts assumptions, one of which is a very 
common-sensical one: namely, in view of the facts above, it was now 
self-evident that JFK’s relationship with the CIA and the 
Military-Industrial Complex (as was Eisenhower’s wont to call it) was 
of such an inimical nature that he was now regarded as a threat to the 
latter’s strategy of global domination - and would therefore have to be 
killed sooner rather than later - preferably before the coming 
election. Indeed, in 1979, the House Select committee on Assassinations 
concluded that JFK was assassinated ‘as a result of a conspiracy’. As 
for the consequences of such an act - the Establishment’s 
economic/political clout was such that they were confident of their 
ability to cope with them. They wasted no time - with not a little help 
from the new president, LBJ, who had had little love for JFK. Now, it 
was becoming increasingly necessary to cover the whole matter with a 
veil of secrecy, with much assistance from the corporate-owned media - 
but more crucially, subsequent elections would have to be better 
‘controlled’ in order to ensure that the JFK débacle would not be 
repeated. The new hi-tech computerised machines would later prove 
essential to this aim.

Secrecy was of paramount importance to this project, and the first step 
taken to ensure this was the unpublicised setting up, in August 1964, 
of the News Election Service (NES), a consortium of the three major 
television networks: ABC, NBC and CBS (CNN was to join later), plus the 
Associated Press wire service, the New York Times, the Washington Post 
and other news-gathering organizations, their job being to compile 
computer-voting results at election time and feed them to the major 
media. That this veil of secrecy was later lifted (but only to a 
certain extent), was due to the investigatory work of two brothers, Jim 
and Ken Collier - entrepreneurs - who wrote a book ‘Votescam:The 
Stealing of America’ which exposed in comprehensive detail how votes at 
elections were being manipulated from now on. But it must be hastily 
added that the major book chains banned publication of the book (though 
it is now available on the internet. <6>). The Colliers knew what they 
were writing about: Ken had run for Congress in Florida in 1970.

It goes without saying that, in order to gain a clearer understanding 
of any subject matter, it is helpful to view it from an historical 
perspective - and so it is with the matter of voting methodology. It 
should come as no surprise to learn that the paper-balloting system was 
first adopted by Australia in 1856: after all, this was in effect a 
symbolic gesture on the part of the many British/Irish who had 
previously been expelled from their homelands to a strange land 
thousands of miles away, there to serve their prison sentences on 
criminal charges! These (now) Aussies were merely giving Britain a 
2-finger salute: “Up yours, you Pommies!”. The Pommies got-the-message 
and subsequently adopted this method of voting - which they still 
follow to this day. (In America, as of 1996, only 1.7% of registered 
voters used this system!).

The subsequent evolution in voting methods, from the mechanical lever 
machine of 1892; through the punchcard, as used in the 1964 
‘primaries’; to the marksense optical scan; to the latest Direct 
Recording Electronic (DRE) system (see opening para. above) - all 
reveal one significant, indisputable fact: namely, voting methodology 
has become not only increasingly complex , but, more importantly, more 
vulnerable to being manipulated illegally. This is not to say that the 
simple paper ballot cannot be rigged (after all, a vote can be ‘bought’ 
in more than one way) - but it is verifiable - whereas the subsequent 
methods (particularly the more recent ones such as the DRE) are not 
verifiable, because of the legally-held proprietary rights of the 
machine owners. In simple terms - the voter has no access to the 
vote-count!

One of the earlier punch-card voting devices used was the 
Harris-designed IBM Votomatic. “The punch card machine was first used 
officially in 1965 in Fulton and DeKalb Counties, Georgia. .. problems 
often occur with the ballot when it is put through the reading machine. 
Although punch card machines are extremely fallible”, they were widely 
used <7> “After several years, IBM realized that the Votomatic voting 
machine... was actually a Pandora's box...and IBM eventually sold its 
rights in the company after IBM's president, Thomas Watson, read an 
article that implied he might be trying to install IBM voting machines 
in enough precincts to win him the first electronically rigged election 
for President of the United States”.... “With voting machines attached 
to telephone lines it was possible to meddle with the actual vote from 
a telephone miles away. Getting caught was not possible. ‘Deniability’ 
and ‘untrackability’ were built into the secret source codes that 
animated the machines.”.... “Most Americans did not realize that such 
an anti-democratic virus had infected their vote. Most do not realize 
it today.” <8>

Spurred by reports and rumours of earlier cases of vote-rigging in Dade 
county (when, in a referendum held in1959, the 27 municipalities had 
lost their autonomous powers to an outside, elitist group, the Metro) 
the Collier brothers decided that one of them, Ken, would run for 
Congress against the sitting Democrat congressman, Claude Pepper, in 
the 1970 election in Dade County, Florida. Pepper won in what the 
brothers soon realised had been a manipulated, rigged vote involving 
county officers, police, FBI, and judiciary! They were shocked, but 
determined - and their subsequent years of detailed, thorough 
investigation only confirmed their earlier fears. Vote-rigging was 
alive and well in America - to say nothing of corruption in the higher 
reaches of the Justice System in Washington!

One episode covering the Collier’s investigation in the aftermath of 
the 1970 election is pertinently fascinating: again, they had learned 
from earlier rumours/reports (see above) that the 1,648 mechanical 
lever vote machines used in their election were probably stored at the 
Opa-Locka airport hangar (Jim had learned to fly there)., and the 
brothers were determined to see them - and learn from them. They 
obtained a court order and went to said hangar - to find the machines 
there. Producing their court order, and indicating one of the machines 
stored there, Ken asked the man in charge “How can you rig this 
thing?”. The man, assuming that their presence had been authorised, 
explained that there were 2 simple ways: either by putting decals over 
the counter, or by predeterming the counter reading “by shaving the 
plastic wheel inside so that it slips ahead 100 or 200 or 300 votes. 
Any good mechanic can do it with a razor blade.” And he gave them a 
shaved ‘predetermining’ counter to keep. <9> They now had another item 
of evidence in hand - and there were many more to come! (These 
machines, made by Automatic Voting Machine Co. of New York were 
evidently not as efficient as the later more complex computer machines 
that were to follow).

As unearthed by the Collier bros. from the Library of Congress: in 
1980, a study was commissioned by the CIA-linked Air Command and Staff 
College in cooperation with the University of New Mexico to examine the 
US electoral system. This important, candid study was subsequently 
distributed to selected government agencies. Following are brief quotes 
from same (NB: underlining is this author’s): "The United States 
government has no elections office and does not attempt to administer 
congressional elections.”...“The responsibility for the administration 
of elections and certification of winners in the United States national 
election rests with a consortium of private entities, including 111,000 
members of the national League of Women Voters.”...“In the case of 
counting actual ballots on national election night, public officials 
have abdicated responsibility of aggregation of election night vote 
totals to a private organization, News Election Service of New York 
(NES)”..“ This private organization performs without a contract: 
without supervision by public officials. It makes decisions concerning 
its duties according to its own criteria.”...“The question and 
accountability of News Election Service has not arisen in the nation's 
press because the responsibility NES now has in counting the nation's 
votes was assumed gradually over a lengthy period without ever being 
evaluated as an item on the public agenda.” <10>

In 1990, due to a merger, NES became Voter Research & Surveys (VRS), 
which, in turn, in 1993, became Voter News Service (VNS), which, 
because of its exposed vote-rigging activities, was disbanded in early 
2003 - to be replaced by the National Election Pool (NEP), a consortium 
of ABC, AP, CBS, CNN, Fox, and NBC, “to provide tabulated vote counts 
and exit poll surveys for the 2004 major presidential primaries and the 
November general election. These six major news organizations, in a 
joint decision, have appointed Edison Media Research and Mitofsky 
International as the sole provider of exit polls for the most important 
political races of 2004. The AP (group) will tally the vote”. <11>..A 
case of many differing titles - but basically all the same consortium! 
- perhaps best exemplified by the facts that the president of Mitovsky 
International, Warren Mitofsky had been (a) executive director of the 
CBS News election and survey unit from 1967 to 1990; (b) started and 
directed Voter Research & Surveys from 1990 to 1993,”; and (c) had 
started the CBS News/New York Times Poll in 1975 and directed it for 
CBS for its first 15 years.” (He had even “conducted the only exit 
polls for the Russian presidential elections in 1996 and 2000”; polled 
for the 1993 and 1999 Duma elections; and in 1994, “conducted 
the only exit poll and quick count for the Mexican presidential 
election”). <12>

The following examples of vote-rigging of a high profile nature should 
serve to illustrate the endemic corruption in the system:

(A) In 1988, ex-CIA Director George Bush snr. was elected President. As 
is well-known, the New Hampshire primary is a crucial forerunner for 
any presidential candidate. Senator Robert Dole was the clear favorite 
for theRepublicans - but Bush snr. won unexpectedly. How come? The 
Governor of New Hampshire was one John Sununu, a computer engineer, and 
the computer voting machine being used was a ‘Shouptronic’ Direct 
Recording Electronic (DRE) voting machine, supplied by Ransom Shoup, 
who “had been twice convicted ofvote fraud in Philadelphia.”.. “It 
completely lacked an ‘audit trail,’ an independent record that could be 
checked in case the machine ‘broke down’ or its results were 
challenged.”... “A source close to Gov. Sununu insists that Sununu knew 
from his perspective as a politician, and his expertise as a computer 
engineer, that the Shouptronic was prime for tampering. The concept is 
clear, simple and it works. Computerized voting gives the power of 
selection, without fear of discovery, to whomever controls the 
computer.” On becoming president, Bush appointed Sununu Chief of Staff 
in his administration. <13>

(B) Chuck Hagel was CEO of American Information Systems (AIS), a 
computer voting machine company, until 1995, when he resigned in order 
to run for the Senate in Nebraska in 1996. He unexpectedly won and thus 
became the first Republican to do so in 26 years! AIS counted the 
votes. In 1999 AIS merged with Electronic Systems & Software (ES&S). In 
the following 2002 election, Hagel retained his seat, this time by a 
landslide (83%). ES&S counted the votes!

AIS had been founded by brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich, in turn funded 
by the Howard F. Ahmanson Co. - who therefore still have a stake in 
what is now ES&S. (Howard Ahmanson belongs to the Council for National 
Policy, a hard right wing organization, and also helps finance The 
Chalcedon Institute, a fundamentalist religious group). The parent 
company of ES&S, in turn, was McCarthy & Co., founded in the ‘90’s by 
Michael McCarthy who subsequently acted as campaign director to Hagel 
in his two elections - and is now Chuck Hagel's treasurer. Further, 
Hagel had been president of McCarthy & Company, but resigned following 
his election in ‘96 - but remains a major investor in the company!. It 
is of pertinence to note here that ES&S also has a connection to the 
Bush family. Jeb Bush's first choice as running mate in 1998 was Sandra 
Mortham who was a paid lobbyist for ES&S and received a commission for 
every county that bought its touch-screen machines. <14>

(C) Jeffrey W. Dean was the senior vice president and a director of 
Global Election Systems in 2000 and 2001. He had been released from 
prison in August 1995 after having served a sentence for theft in the 
first degree. “Defendants thefts occurred over a two-&-a-half year 
period.” While in prison, he had become friends with John Elder, who 
had subsequently been released in November 1996 after doing 5 years for 
cocaine trafficking. After release, Dean and his wife became owners of 
Spectrum Printing & Mailing (the funding for this remains a mystery) - 
and in 2000 sold this firm to Global Election Systems (GES) for $1.6 
million - as a result of which, Dean served as Snr. Vice-President and 
director of GES (noted above). In January 2002, GES was bought out by 
one of the larger computer-voting companies, Diebold Election System, 
who, in 2001, had contracted to build voting machines for GES. Dean was 
retained as consultant for Diebold.

On 4th February 2002, John Elder (see above) was made general manager 
of the Printed Products branch of Diebold. Weldon O’Dell, CEO of 
Diebold, had donated over $200,000 to the Republican Party in the 2000 
and 2002 campaigns - but is better known for his recent letter in which 
he promised to deliver Ohio’s votes to George W. Bush in 2004! <15>

(D) Database Technologies (DBT Online) was founded by Hank Asher, and 
was a company involved in the George Bush jnr. election fraud. The 
group once had a data management contract with the FBI. However, this 
was terminated following allegations that Asher was associated with 
Bahamian drug dealers. In 1998, the state of Florida signed a $4 
million contract with (DBT Online), which later merged into 
ChoicePoint, for the purposes of providing a central voter file listing 
those barred from voting. (As of 2002, Florida is the only state which 
hires a private firm for these purposes).. The state Florida contracted 
with DBT in November 1998, following the controversial Miami mayoral 
race of 1997. The 1998 contracting process involved no bidding and was 
worth $2,317,800!

On 17th April 2000, at a special Congressional hearing in Atlanta, 
ChoicePoint Vice-President James Lee testified that Florida had ordered 
DBT to add to the list voters who matched 80% of an ineligible voter's 
name, and on February 16, 2001, DBT Senior Vice-President George Bruder 
testified before the US Civil Rights Commission that the company had 
misinformed the Florida Supervisors of Elections regarding the usage of 
race in compiling the list.

ChoicePoint Vice President Martin Fagan admitted that at least 8,000 
names were incorrectly listed in this fashion when, the company was 
passed on a list given by the state of Texas, these 8,000 names were 
removed prior to the election.He described the error as a "minor 
glitch". He is also quoted as saying “"Given the outcome of our work in 
Florida and with a new president in place, we think our services will 
expand across the country." In January 2000, Pennsylvania terminated 
its contract with ChoicePoint after alleging that the firm had 
illegally sold citizens' personal information. In 2002, ChoicePoint 
generated earnings of $200 million on revenue of $791 million. The 
company employs 3,500 people at 52 locations within 26 states. <16>

(E) According to Mark Lewellen-Biddle of Purdue university, “the three 
largest voting machine companies in America are Election Systems and 
Software, Sequoia and Diebold”, Sequoia being the second largest “with 
roughly one third of the voting machine market. In 1999, the Justice 
Department filed federal charges against Sequoia alleging that 
employees paid out more than $8 million in bribes. In 2001, election 
officials in Pinellas County, Florida, cancelled a $15.5 million 
contract for voting equipment after discovering that Phil Foster, a 
Sequoia executive, faced indictment in Louisiana for money laundering 
and corruption.” <17> And for good measure, Alex Lefebvre added that 
Sequoia is largely controlled by the British cash-printing firm De La 
Rue, whose parent , “private equity firm Madison Dearborn, is a partner 
of the Carlyle Group, the investment firm that employs the current 
president’s father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush.” <18>

The above examples are by no means comprehensive , but they are surely 
adequate enough to illustrate that the criminal element could only have 
permeated the electoral process - and for so many years - with, at the 
very least, the connivance of the higher echelons within the political 
structure of the country. Which brings us back to the Help America Vote 
Act of 2002 (a duplicitous misnomer, if there ever was one!), and its 
effect on the coming presidential election this year - to say nothing 
of its effect on the crucially important ‘primaries’ very soon. Of one 
thing we can be sure: the votes will once again be rigged, as 
illustrated above, and confirmed as promised by Weldon O’Dell of 
Diebold above - unless the American enfranchised public wake up very 
quickly and take the matter into their own hands. There is little sign 
of this so far.

The very concept of democracy is at stake.


ENDNOTES
<1> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/dec2003/vote-d24.shtml.
<2> www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ruling_Elites/Policy_Formation_TPTB.html
<3> “Plausible Denial” by Mark Lane 1992 Plexus Publishing ltd. (p. 98)
<4> Ibid (pp 99,100)
<5> Ibid (pp102,103)
<6> http://www.votescam.com/orderbook.html
<7> http://nairobi.mwc.edu/~rdean8it/HIST200R/types.html.
<8> “Votescam: The Stealing of America” by James & Kenneth Collier 2000
Vistoria House Press (pp18,19)
<9> Ibid. (pp84-88)
<10> Ibid. (pp22,23)
<11> http://www.exit-poll.net/pool.html..
<12>
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/election/
2001844416_exitpolls27.html.
<13> op.cit.”Votescam” (pp13-16)
<14> http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/INF307A.html.
<15> http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00191.htm.
<16> http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChoicePoint.
<17> http://www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=490_0_1_0_C
<18> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/dec2003/vote-d24.shtml.


This is on http://www.bilderberg.org/wwiii.htm   
       

Vote Rigging: how organised criminals have stolen U.S. democracy | 
 
| postnuke | spc.org | bilderberg.org | infowars.com |




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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'd like to see a little more evidence, and a little less speculation.

Just MHO, but there it is.


MDN
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I think the Religious Right's participation in *'s efforts...
has been well documented with the MSM. The question is: how far would they go to advance their agenda? I know that they can be disruptive, an exteme example would be the guy who bombed the abortion clinic. Perhaps some of them have had access to anthrax? :shrug:

Madsen is asking for help in establishing connections for evidence:

<snip>
He is wondering if we can dig up connections between the various voting machine companies and the Dominionists. For example Rapp with Triad, O'Dell with Diebold and Ahmanson( I've forgotten whether he was w/ ES & S and or Sequioa). We can help him and our selves by exploring any possible Dominionist connections with these members of the voting machine Co.s. His thought is that there may not be one giant conspiracy involved here, but rather interelated small conspiracies that happen to have similar aims and methods. A sort of coincidental conspiracy if you will. (Now we can get both the Coincident Theorists and the Conspiracy Theorists together on the same page). :-)
<snip>
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. No question about their involvement as a powerful interest group, but:
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 09:09 AM by Mike Niendorff

an interest group is one thing, whereas a criminal conspiracy is quite another. All I'm saying is: we progressives need to be careful what we pin our credibility on, because letting ourselves get baited out onto one crazy limb after another is a sure-fire way to lose that credibility. But by all means, regardless of anything else I've just said, we must follow the evidence where it leads, so I guess I'm just advising caution and care.


MDN

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. I agree...
and I wouldn't want to focus everyone's full attention on this one development. There's too much going on elsewhere.
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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. We are way ahead of you
Believe, this is where we were weeks ago and you will not believe what we have dug up. Stay tuned...
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I have to admit.....
I'm not surprised if any off this is true. It's the detail of the specific organizations and individuals involved, and how far up they go in the government, which will be most interesting.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. SCOTUS Justice Scalia said democracy interferes with God's will.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 07:11 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
And it was important for believers like him to fix that.

He really said this. He believes in the Divine Right of Kings and says that is why government can kill "evil-doers."
(And, I suppose, torture them, too. 'Daddy sez I can torture and kill you so I must obey Him.')

Be very very afraid of this Christo-Fascist psychosis; There are many like him now in the Congress, Senate, and White House AND IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE SPANISH INQUISITION IN RED-WHITE-AND-BLUE.


Here's what Torquemada/Scalia wrote in 2002 for a speech called 'God's Justice and Ours' about the 'validity' of the death penalty.

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/scalia.htm

>snip<

"The reaction of people of faith to this tendency of democracy to obscure the divine authority behind government should not be resignation to it, but the resolution to combat it as effectively as possible.

We have done that in this country (and continental Europe has not) by preserving in our public life many visible reminders that—in the words of a Supreme Court opinion from the 1940s—“we are a religious people, whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being.” These reminders include: “In God we trust” on our coins, “one nation, under God” in our Pledge of Allegiance, the opening of sessions of our legislatures with a prayer, the opening of sessions of my Court with “God save the United States and this Honorable Court,” annual Thanksgiving proclamations issued by our President at the direction of Congress, and constant invocations of divine support in the speeches of our political leaders, which often conclude, “God bless America.”

All this, as I say, is most un–European, and helps explain why our people are more inclined to understand, as St. Paul did, that government carries the sword as “the minister of God,” to “execute wrath” upon the evildoer."

>SNIP>

NOBODY EXPECTS...THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Well, Scalia is full of it.
"One nation, under God" was inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, IIRC, by the Knights of Columbus (and I'm probably wrong about that part of it).

The founders of this country were clearly for a separation of church and state, and that's why this country has, until recently, been a united one despite our differences.

Politics and religion don't mix. They are inherently antithetical.

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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Exactly! I don't ever remember God or Christ being politicians, do you?
Scalia is killing and giving a bad name to my religion, that fake ass phony! I'm sick and tired of these lunatics talking about how their disgusting, evil ways are God's will. Pardon my language, but BULLSHIT!!
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. I hate to say this,
but do you suppose the churches are receiving monetary gifts (kickbacks) for spreading "the message"? Their thinking is so weird, so off-the-wall, & they're all in sync with the same oddball speak.
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Interesting question. I wouldn't think the churches themselves are
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 08:47 PM by TexasChick
receiving monetary gifts, but I bet dollars to donuts that these people actually spreading "the message" are. Sort of like, dealing with the Devil "under the table", so to speak, to keep the dealings from prying eyes, IMHO.


Edited to add IMHO.
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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Tax exempt status
These people make a ton of money off what they do and there is ZERO financial oversight into what is going on.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #53
92. Why do you think that was one of the first things Bushitler did in 2001?
Faith Based Initiatives! The freak knew precisely how to hide things right under everyones noses.
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pick_a_dilly Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #49
82. YES --- the whole 'faith based social programs' ...
the whole 'faith based social programs' = PAYOFF $ TO WR 'christian' supporters ...

in essence 'christian' groups are given big $ to work on social problems ------ it is the privatization on social services.

interestingly i so not think one $ has gone to a group other than c'christian' ---- jewish, muslem, buddist ect have been locked out.

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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Scalia is representative of the 'Killers for Christ' we are now facing.n/t
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. I wonder how much of this is game talk, though.
If Scalia actually believes this, he's nuts.

I have faith in God -- it's the churches I've lost faith in. Their teachings are very strange these days.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. Sure hope you don't mean ALL churches!
Some of us are actively speaking out against the policies of this administration! :hi:
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #61
66. Oh, of course not! :)
Edited on Fri Dec-24-04 01:50 AM by 8_year_nightmare
In fact, the other night I saw a tv commercial advertising a church, & unfortunately, only the last part of it grabbed my attention (& my husband's, too). It made a point of welcoming ALL people of all creeds, including a gay couple! My husband & I looked at each other & we both commented on how all churches should have the same Christian values as that one claimed it had. I thought it took a lot of courage & character for a church to take such a stand in this political climate.

And you're the best, RevCheesehead. :yourock:
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. Aw, geez, you're sweet!
The ad. you saw was produced by the United Church of Christ (UCC). Some of the network folks are refusing to air it, because they believe it is "too political."
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Thanks, RevCheesehead. That is the one!
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #69
83. I saw that commercial here in McKinney/Dallas area. I give that church
props for being brave here in RW Fundie central!
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks for posting. Please continue to keep us informed.
All the best to you, jamboi & Madsen.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. MUST SEE/HEAR-
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 08:57 AM by Al-CIAda
Audio & Video
Download audio and video documenting the Rise of Dominionism (no charge, no copyright)
or order CDs, DVDs and other materials.

"The Rise of Dominionism"
recorded October 11, 2004, 44 minutes
MP3-
http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/audio_dominionism_oct6.mp3

Realplayer-
http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/audio_dominionism_oct6.ram

--------
http://www.theocracywatch.org/audio-video.htm

Must see/hear!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
87. Hi Al-CIAda
Are you working with KingoftheJungle? I received his document...
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. No sir, I am not,
But I should add my appreciation to any information that you see fit to pass along.

Thank you.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
54. Your very welcome!
Anything new that I learn from Jamboi will be posted here.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. I believe! I knew this had happened from the exit polls, just not who did
getting Church groups to do it is a brilliant strategy cause people will commit all kinds of crimes for God under the assumption that His law trumps man's law.
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Kellis Donating Member (663 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. why was he tombstoned?
I didn't know jamboi was tombstoned.When did that happen?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. You can email me at....
[email protected]

I'd strongly recommend that no one discuss this here.

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. I appreciate Jamboi's research.
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walkbyfaith7 Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
9. I've always believed that's how Arnold got to be Gov of Calif.
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Ditto!
n/t
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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
10. We are in the process of putting together all the evidence...
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 11:47 AM by KingoftheJungle
and will probably release the bulk of it around december 29th or so. I have no idea when Madsen will release his article but our mutual sources are compiling everything we have uncovered in the last few weeks into a comprehensive PDF file for public viewing. In the meantime, email me at
[email protected]
and I'll send you a letter we sent to Arnebeck that gives a general picture of who is involved and evidence that shows that justice Moyer and senator Dewine were fraudulantly elected with the aid of this powerful group.

When I first got involved with this investigation I thought is was far-fetched disinformation hooey, but practically every day that goes by we are uncovering more and more evidence and linking more and more people, companies, and government officials together into the conspiracy. You will not believe how tangled this web is.

I apologize for not providing any hard evidence at the moment. Please understand that the reasoning behind this stems from the fact that our biggest obstacle in the investigation occured as soon as these groups caught on to us and started deleting information and sources off the internet left and right, so we must back up what we have (hence the PDF coming out) before we release the data. Please be patient, this thing is huge and it will be well worth it when it is available.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I have been hearing more & more concerning this topic of late
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 11:32 AM by GetTheRightVote

it will be nice to been better informed on it so we can look out for it on the local levels as well.

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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. This is bigger than local stuff
We are talking about an international fringe religious group with deep ties to the CIA, the Bush administration, and a number of major corporations, including most (if not all) of the voting machine/database companies such as Yang, Triad, Deibold, etc. In the document sent to Arnebeck, we have included a list of members including a brief bio on each one. Email me for a copy.
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
51. I did email you, and haven't heard back. n/t
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #51
70. got it, thanks. NT
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Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Thx from the bottom of our hearts, for all you do!
And, blessing to Jamboi and Mr Madsen.
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
89. That weird religious-government group
Does anyone remember a very long piece in -- I can't remember if it was Harper's or the New Yorker -- about this shadowy religious group that is made up of very powerful, wealthy individuals? Many of them, of course, in government. They have these big annual breakfasts in D.C. And there is a house somewhere where a few of them live, in the suburbs, I think, of D.C. Or further out in the country.

It was started by a religious fanatic who decided that the way to save the world was not by enlisting the help of everyone, but to concentrate on the rich and powerful. And he did that.

I can't remember the name of it, if it has one. But it is real. And this journalist posed as one of them and went and stayed in the house for a while.

This isn't a secret so much, as no one really knows what they are up to.

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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #89
105. the family....in Harpers?????
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hoosierblue Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. We already knew/believed that...
How's the evidence part coming?
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propagandafreegal Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yes, we need to PROVE it. nm
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. Thought so.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. and the really funny, i knew this election nite
after bush did yellow room interview. started thinking it about 4, 5 central time.

yup yup. a duh for me, wink
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. Howard Ahmanson, Christian Dominionist assoc. w/ Iran-Contra
gave the Urosevich brothers the money to start their first voting machine company. The Urosevich brothers are now at the helms of ES&S and Diebold - which count 80% of the votes. Ahmanson has got to *hate* Kerry -- Kerry was the Senator who pushed for investigations of the Contra-cocaine scandal (CIA selling crack inside US to send money to the Contras).

I can believe Saudi association somewhere along the way, but really thought WM was off track in his first articles.

The Chrisitan Dominionists and corporate/military Project for the New American Century NeoConservatives are THE key. Go Wayne!

:kick:



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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. You're on the right track
Email me and I'll send you the letter, which includes a list of the main members of the organization we are investigating along with brief bios on each one. Ahmanson is (was?) definately a key player.

[email protected]
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Know anything about a Russian born businessman named
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 05:22 PM by seemslikeadream
Alex Kantarovich?
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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-25-04 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
86. Aside from...
http://lists.topica.com/lists/networkamerica/read/message.html?mid=1303274028&sort=d&start=254

not much. Seems very interesting though, thanks for pointing it out.

Got anything else to add on this guy? Email me
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
68. I thought your heart wasn't in this Lion.n/t
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
73. Hey-be careful, friend. This is probably why Gary is no longer with us.
The stakes here are the highest possible. Gary had insight in this direction and his absence underscores the liklihood that these dots do indeed connect as suggested.

We've all noticed the unusually devisive troll activity on this site post-Nov 2nd and 'those' people-of-interest don't spend much time where they needn't.

As the international game goes badly for them, they might put more energy into preventing a domestic front from being opened by these dots.

So please keep up the work on that front and be in it for the long haul, ay?

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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. I'm placing my bets...
that Madsen is going to bite the dust before I do. Although to be honest I have seen at least three plainclothes undercovers in new Toyota SUVs (all same make, model with different colors) doing survelliance either on my street or at a party I was at last saturday. However, my role in this is minimal and they are probably unrelated events, and my newfound paranoia is in effect. Just pray that Madsen or my sources get this information out before something unfortunate happens, as one of them has apparently already been targeted by the same Nigerian scammers Madsen mentioned in his earlier articles (trying to lure him with bogus lottery winnings) and several of our sources of evidence have been deleted off the internet. I know they are on to us but I do not know to what extent.

Its a real shame about Gary, and whats worse is that practically nobody is looking at the possibility that he was murdered. I would really like to have gone through his computer and phone records to see what he was up to before he died, as he was complaining about being followed all the time and witnessed government people breaking into and out of his house on several occasions before he was murdered. I read somewhere that he was working on a new CIA drug ops piece, and I think that probably had something to do with it.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. I've been receiving a ton of Nigerian scam email....
Edited on Fri Dec-24-04 06:01 AM by AntiFascist
at one of my email addresses, it seems relatively harmless if you don't act on it. Just don't travel to Lagos to pick up the winnings, I've heard of people getting asassinated that way.
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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. I've seen a copy of one of the emails
Edited on Fri Dec-24-04 05:30 AM by KingoftheJungle
And I think you would have to be a severely mentally handicapped person to even consider falling victim to such a blatent load of bullshit. If I would have known email scamming was so easy I would have quit my day job a while ago (shit, nobody says I can't right now either ;-) )
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. I KNEW IT!!!! The USA can't be stupid enough to elect Scrub!! n/t n/t
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. The Majority of AMericans voted for Kerry--
Thats clear--23 states had exit poll to results discrepancys of 2% or more.

Kerry WOn--we can prove it--
Get ready to march

[email protected]

http://www.51capitalmarch.com/
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. I live in California...
you can bet your sweet bippy that's how "girlie man" got into office...nothing has been the same since 2000.................
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Ahhh a Laugh in quote--very cool--good reference--LOL
Get your signs ready be prepared to hit the streets.

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /


[email protected]

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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. me too
my first (and better be last) electronic voting in alameda county. i could have sworn i heard a flush when i confirmed my vote.

so how come bustamante was ahead in the polls? gee, must have been some of those inaccurate polls (like the 2004 exit polls).
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DavidFL Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. Harper's published an article in 2003 about "The Family"
Jesus Plus Nothing

<snip>

Ivanwald, which sits at the end of Twenty-fourth Street North in Arlington, Virginia, is known only to its residents and to the members and friends of the organization that sponsors it, a group of believers who refer to themselves as “the Family.” The Family is, in its own words, an “invisible” association, though its membership has always consisted mostly of public men. Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as “members,” as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.). Regular prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense, and the Family has traditionally fostered strong ties with businessmen in the oil and aerospace industries. The Family maintains a closely guarded database of its associates, but it issues no cards, collects no official dues. Members are asked not to speak about the group or its activities.

<snip>

Rest of article here: http://www.harpers.org/JesusPlusNothing.html?pg=1

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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #32
91. thanks for that --
I remembered that article, couldn't remember its name. Is that the group that is behind this?

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #32
98. aka "The Fellowship" or "The Foundation"
http://www.4religious-right.info/secret_theocrats.html

Meet 'The Family'

By Anthony LappôU(Excutive Editor of GNN.tv. He has written for The New York Times, New York, Details, and Salon, among many others.)

June 13, 2003

It sounded like a reality show on the PAX network: Six conservative politicians living in a DC townhouse owned by a fundamentalist Christian organization. What happens when you stop being polite and start finding Jesus?

In April, the AP broke the story that six U.S. congressmen were paying the bargain rate of $600 a month each to live together in a swanky DC townhouse owned by a secretive fundamentalist Christian group known as the Fellowship or the Foundation. Many, understandably, were curious. Who is this organization, and what is its agenda?

The group, the AP reported, is best known for holding the annual National Prayer Breakfast at the White House, which offers scores of national and international heavy hitters the opportunity to praise God in close proximity to the President. In the article, the congressmen boarding at the house denied owing any allegiance to the group, and several professed ignorance of even the most basic facts about the organization. Little else was reported about the group's history, motives or backers.

There is a reason for that. The Fellowship is one of the most secretive, and most powerful, religious organizations in the country. Its connections reach to the highest levels of the U.S. government and include ties to the CIA and numerous current and past dictators around the world.

Last month, Harper's magazine published a rather extraordinary article by Jeffrey Sharlet, editor of the irreverent web site killingthebuddha.com and co-author of the upcoming "Killing the Buddha: A Heretic's Bible" (Free Press). The piece chronicled Sharlet's three-week semi-undercover stay at Ivanwald, the Fellowship's mansion:

Ivanwald, which sits at the end of Twenty-fourth Street North in Arlington, Virginia, is known only to its residents and to the members and friends of the organization that sponsors it, a group of believers who refer to themselves as "the Family." The Family is, in its own words, an "invisible" association, though its membership has always consisted mostly of public men. Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as "members," as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.).

Regular prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense, and the Family has traditionally fostered strong ties with businessmen in the oil and aerospace industries. The Family maintains a closely guarded database of its associates, but it issues no cards and collects no official dues. Members are asked not to speak about the group or its activities. The organization has operated under many guises, some active, some defunct: National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, the National Leadership Council, Fellowship House, the Fellowship Foundation, the National Fellowship Council, the International Foundation. These groups are intended to draw attention away from the Family, and to prevent it from becoming, in the words of one of the Family's leaders, "a target for misunderstanding."

The Family's only publicized gathering is the National Prayer Breakfast, which it established in 1953 and which, with congressional sponsorship, it continues to organize every February in Washington, D.C. Each year 3,000 dignitaries, representing scores of nations, pay $425 each to attend. Steadfastly ecumenical, too bland most years to merit much press, the breakfast is regarded by the Family as merely a tool in a larger purpose: to recruit the powerful attendees into smaller, more frequent prayer meetings, where they can "meet Jesus man to man."

If this all sounds like something out of a conspiracy theorist's wet dream (or paranoid nightmare), you're right. Sharlet's account of his three weeks of "man to man" interaction can only be described as disturbing and downright bizarre. In fact, it was so creepy many accused him of making the whole thing up.

So what did Sharlet find?

GNN: You went undercover into this house. Who were you posing as and what were you trying to find?

SHARLET: Actually, I was posing as myself. I write about religion. A friend said go check it out, it's an interesting place. I went not knowing the politics. Within a few days I began to see things were not at all what I expected. This was connected to a pretty vast political network. Still it was quite a pleasant place to live. These people had a different approach than I did, but I was interested in learning. As time went on I started hearing more and more disturbing talk.

That's when I started keeping my ears open. I didn't go in undercover, but I suppose I left undercover. But I told them who I was, I never told a lie.

GNN: Some people have called your story a hoax.

SHARLET: I've got lots of letters from people saying this has got to be a hoax, or please tell me it's a hoax or curiously from people who know a little too much to be saying the things they were saying.

GNN: What are some this group's core ideas and what level of secrecy is involved here?

SHARLET: The goal is an "invisible" world organization led by Christ ? that's what they aspire to. They are very explicit about this if you look in their documents, and I spent a lot of time researching in their archives. Their goal is a worldwide invisible organization. That's their word, and that's important because it sounds so crazy.

What they mean when they say "a world organization led by Christ" is that literally you just sit there and let Christ tell you what to do. More often than not that leads them to a sort of paternalistic benign fascism. There are a lot of places that they've done good things, and that's important to acknowledge. But that also means they might be involved with General Suharto in Indonesia and if that means that God leads him to kill half a million of his own citizens then, well, it would prideful to question God leading them.

GNN: Who are these guys, and how many are there?

SHARLET: The only estimate was made by Charles Colson, Nixon's chief dirty tricks guy who went on to become the head of Prison Fellowship Ministries. Right before he went to prison the founder Doug Coe turned him on to Christ. Colson said there are about 20,000 people involved in the U.S. But you aren't really supposed to talk about it.

I always say to interviewers, "This is not a conspiracy." There's no secret badge or anything. It's much looser. This is how the vast right-wing conspiracy works, by being associates, friends.

GNN: But they speak of themselves as operating in terrorist-like cells.

SHARLET: Yes, they do. Inside your cell, you might know six or eight guys.

Let me give you a real quick history. In 1935, Abraham Vereide starts it. By the 1940s he has about a third of Congress attending a weekly prayer meeting. In the mid-50s, he gets Eisenhower's support.



It's sort of stabilized now. By the mid-60's, they sort of realized they didn't want too many people. Too many people dilute the organization.

One scene I saw was Congressman Todd Tiahrt, Republican from Kansas, who seemed as if he was interviewing to be in the organization. He was very nervous. The leader of the organization was asking him questions, sort of leaning back and testing him. I think he wanted into this network, and he would fumble a little by talking about abortion. They don't really care about abortion. They are against it but they aren't really concerned about it.

GNN: What are their core issues then?

SHARLET: The core issue is capitalism and power. The core issue they would say, is love. There are a lot of different things love means. They will always work with both sides of the issue. I saw some correspondence with Chinese officials before Deng Xiao Ping was in power. They had some very clandestine associations with senior Chinese officials, and were told Deng was a guy they could do business with. So that was fine with them.

GNN: When you say 'do business,' was it all about actual business deals?

SHARLET: I wouldn't say it was all about business deals. But if you happened to be praying with someone and you were done praying and said, "Hey, I have some F-16s to sell..." They would deny there is any connection.

They are pretty careful about those kinds of things. They will never say, "We are out here to help set you up in business." They will always help out their friends. "Let me introduce you to someone. The Prime Minister of Malaysia is coming."

GNN: It sounds to me like some sort of extended Skull and Bones, an Old Boys Network crafted onto a religious context.

SHARLET: The religious context is real. The Old Boys Network is about business. This is about more than business. This is about maintaining a certain kind of power, a certain view of how power should be distributed. The Episcopalian Old Boys Network was a lot more easygoing than this. This is a lot more militaristic. Really at its fundamental core, almost monarchist. We would be told time and time again, "Christ's kingdom is not a democracy" This is their model for leadership. They would often say, "Everything you need to know about government is right there in the cross - it's vertical not horizontal."

GNN: In that vein, reading your article I got the impression they are praising guys like Adolph Hitler and Ghengis Khan ? a lot. Is that a fair assessment of your intention?

SHARLET: In fact, Harpers made me cut back on that stuff. 'We know it's true, but this is already so much to absorb.' That's why I included that line at the end of the story. The leader of the group is having dinner with the younger members of that group and is talking about the bond, the covenant. And he says, "Can anyone think of someone who had a covenant?" And the answer, of course, and everyone knows it, is "Hitler."

This goes back to the 1960's, Vereide was instructing young men by having them read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich ? "Look at what those guys did." But they will say, "We are not trying to kill Jews." What we are talking about is imagine if you took the "Hitler Concept," and they'll use that phrase, the Hitler Concept, to work for Christ, or the Mao Concept. We're not right wingers, they'll say. You can use the Mao Concept.

GNN: Define what they mean by Hitler Concept.

SHARLET: A loyal leadership cadre, which is interesting because guys like Hitler and Stalin were famous for purging, but they seem to focus on a couple of guys. "If two or three agree" is a phrase they use a lot. If you can get together and focus you can accomplish anything. You don't need to sway the electorate. You don't need to convert everyone to Christ. Everyone doesn't have to believe in Christ, and that's where they differ from other fundamentalists. Some fundamentalists really distrust them for that. "We need to convert everyone, the high and the low." The Family says, "No we don't need the high." All these guys Hitler, Lenin, Pol Pot and Osama bin Laden is another guy they cite a lot, are guys who understood the power of a political avant garde. That's what they mean by the Hitler Concept. Also keeping your message simple, and repeating it again and again because there is only one message and it is "Jesus Loves." You can express lots of different things with that term.

I always try to play the devil's advocate. They are not the traditional right wing bad guys. They have been able to do what they do for so long because no one has been looking for this kind of thing.

A lot of this is already in the culture, take "Ghengis Khan Business Secrets," for instance, the admiration authoritarian leaders.

GNN: Here's where I'm confused. To me they sound like Nietzsche. They don't sound like Jesus Christ. They sound like they are creating the Nietzschean superman above the moral universe the rest of us slaves live in. SHARLET: I don't think I mention Nietzsche in the article, do I? GNN: I don't think so.

SHARLET: That's really perceptive of you. Many of them love Nietzsche. They think he's fascinating.

GNN: But he hated Christianity. He was the ultimate amoralist.

SHARLET: I know it's weird. There is one really wacky fundamentalist group that thinks Doug Coe could be the Anti-Christ. They're not sure yet, they might need to shave his head and see if he has the mark of the beast.

They have gotten into trouble with a lot of evangelical groups. They invited Yasser Arafat to the National Prayer Breakfast. They've boasted, and I don't know if it's true, that they had special permission from the State Department to bring anyone they wanted to the Cedars, that they'd brought some Sudanese on the terrorist list to their mansion headquarters and they'd love to get Osama bin Laden down there.

GNN: But where does Christ fit into all of this? This seems like a lot of Old Testament stuff, not the new , meek-shall-inherit-the-earth Jesus part.

SHARLET: That's an interesting point. For them, Jesus is just a regular guy, a buddy, a guide, the standard evangelical stuff, no sex. It's sort of a weird hipster puritanical view. If you met them you wouldn't think they were uptight.

GNN: Actually, they sound like complete homophobes to me.

SHARLET: They definitely think homosexuality is a sin.

GNN: But they seem like they can't stand women.

SHARLET: They're just not that interested. It's a very gendered point of view. Jesus is everywhere. Jesus is right there with you on the basketball court.

But at the upper levels there is this weird emphasis on the Old Testament. It's in the story, they talk about King David, who in some ways was a really bad guy. They are really interested in the biblical concept that whether you are good or bad it doesn't matter, what matters is whether you are chosen. That's part of the Hitler Concept. It doesn't matter whether Hitler was good or bad, Hitler was chosen for leadership. That was part of God's plan. Nothing happens that isn't part of God's plan. GNN: Let's cut to this house where these six congressmen are living on C Street in DC. What is the connection, if any, to the Bush Administration? The White House seems to have its own relationship to religion and people who are influencing them on religious issues. Is there a relationship here?

SHARLET: Yes, though I will say it is not exclusively Democrat or Republican. They say there are six guys at the C Street house, there were eight when I was there. They say there is one for members of Parliament in England, and I think there are similar ones in other capitals. The house is constantly rotating. Steve Largent used to live there. John Elias Baldacci, a conservative Democrat who is now the governor of Maine. As for the Bush connection, there is Ashcroft. I discovered in their archives a correspondence between Ashcroft and Coe that began in 1981. Al Gore at one time referred to Doug Coe as his personal hero, which is easy to believe. Doug Coe is an incredibly charming man. The Bushes have visited the Cedars many times, but all presidents have. Bush Sr. when he was Vice President was hosting dinners for Middle Eastern ambassadors there. There are going to be people at all levels.

GNN: When you say someone "is a part of it" what does that mean? Are you in or out, or is it a loose thing?

SHARLET: It's a loose thing. But there are levels of participation.

GNN: Are they codified like the Masons or something?

SHARLET: There is an inner core group that is codified in their documents, called the Core. I don't know who is in it other than Doug Coe. The documents I saw only went up to the late 80's with senators, congressmen, and a lot of military men. Before he died, Senator Harold Huges was Core. Former Senator Mark Hatfield used to be Core, and may still be. In the AP article, there is an Air Force officer who I hadn't known about. Then there are associates, usually about 150 associates and they are the key individuals in their areas, and then there are the people who are in a cell with an associate and they are very close. And then there are close friends. Senator James Inhofe, Republican from Oklahoma, is frequently, for instance, referred to as a close friend. President Museveni of Uganda is a close friend. There is no membership card. In all of their letters there is a paragraph that says this is a private, confidential relationship and we don't talk about it when they are recruiting a new person into the group.

GNN: Are there formal events and meetings, other than this national prayer breakfast?

SHARLET: There are literally thousands of governors', mayors', prayer breakfasts around the country. Some of those probably launched forty, fifty years ago and have long since lost their connection to the mothership, as it were. But that's the idea. They're part of the movement. The system is in place, that we should turn to God to make all our decisions. Up until the 1970's, they had Core meetings around the world, but that's as far as I saw in the documents.

GNN: So how scared are you of this group? Are they a force for fascism or some sort of cult-like group with big connections that comes and goes?

SHARLET: I think they are definitely a force for fascism. I think a lot of the way the world looks is a result of their work. They were instrumental in getting U.S. government support for General Suharto, for the generals' juntas in Brazil. Just take those two countries alone, they are two of the biggest countries on Earth. Those countries might have been progressive democracies a long time ago had it not been for U.S. support for those regimes ...

GNN: But don't you think the CIA and the U.S. government's own agenda had a lot to do with those decisions? SHARLET: Yeah, but they made those connections.

GNN: What are the connections between the CIA and the Fellowship?

SHARLET: A lot of their key men in a country would be the intelligence officers in the American embassy. Throughout their correspondence, that's the kind of guy they would like to have involved. They always had a lot of Army intelligence guys involved, Pentagon guys. Doug Coe in the early 70's was touring the frontlines in Vietnam with intelligence officers and South Vietnamese generals. That's the level of connections they are talking about, like the Salvadoran general Carlos Eugenios Vides Casanova and Honduran general Gustavo Alvarez Martinez . They are the people who brought those people in. They said you need to meet this person. That's how it works.

Their diplomacy can affect some good things, like the truce in Rwanda. They had a lot of connections with the South African regime, where they were generally a moderate, even a progressive force. But it's kinda hard to name a nasty regime around the world that doesn't have really well-documented connections to them. Franco was a hold-out. So they started winning over a bunch of ministers in the Franco regime and then they went to Franco and said this is a good group, we can do business with them.

GNN: Why hasn't there been more mainstream press on this?

SHARLET: Lisa Getter of The Los Angeles Times, a Pulitzer prize winning investigative reporter, did a piece on it, but there was no follow-up. I got a little press out of it when my article came out. There is a big reason there hasn't been a lot of press about it and that's the war. On the other hand, and this isn't a conspiracy theory, if they can't see it then it's not there. I mean if you read that your local congressman is sitting there saying Hitler is a leadership model, the local paper should at the very least call up and say, "Congressman Tiahrt do you believe Hitler is a good leadership model?" If he had said, "Noam Chomsky is a great philosopher" then there'd be an investigation in a minute.

Why they are not following up on it? I don't know. Partly because it's so crazy, and partly because there is this idea that religion and politics are separate and religion is a personal thing. The media has always been pretty dumb when it comes to religion. In the New Yorker profile of John Ashcroft they talk about his weekly prayer breakfast, Steve Largent, in The New York Times, same deal. I think they interviewed him while he was living at the house. The reporter never asked, "Hey, how did you get involved in this? Is this something that existed before you?" The reporter sort of implied it was Largent's idea for the weekly prayer breakfasts. It hasn't been that secret. The New Republic did an exposîZn the late 60's, early 70's, and no one really followed up. Robert Scheer did a piece on it in Playboy in the 1970's.

GNN: Any fallout from the members?

SHARLET: I've talked to several who swear we are still friends. One guy did say, I'm paraphrasing, 'You're a traitor and you'll be dealt with as a traitor.'

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space PO Box 652 Brunswick, ME 04011 (207) 729-0517 (352) 871-7554 (Cell phone)
http://www.space4peace.org [email protected]
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. Makes sense...
Religions tend to be totalitarian and Christianity loathes humanism, the driving force behind the Enlightenment. The US "Charters of Freedom" grew out of the Enlightenment, so why would "true-believing religious right Dominionists" want to see democracy flourish?
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. huh?
Religion is totalitarian?
Christianity loathes humanism?

Upon what do you base these assertions?
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satori Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
35. Madsen I guess is still working on it
Madsen emailed me a few days ago, so I would guess he is still working on the vote rigging issue. He told me he would follow up on a possible vote fraud expert that contacted me asking for help.

I trust him much more then Conyers or Moore.

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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Thats not going to cut it here.
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satori Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Why does everyone here so trust conyers and Moore?
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 07:11 PM by satori
Why does everyone here as you say on DU think that Conyers or Moore will help you so much? Look at Farahkan and the Conyers affair at the Jewish Journal at http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=9576

The Journal says that:

Other CBC members have provided a Capitol Hill platform for Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan. When Farrakhan returned from a recent Mideast "peace mission," it was CBC founder Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.) who provided him a forum, as if he was a legitimate statesman, not a garden-variety bigot.

If everyone as you say on DU will not be TOLERANT of anyone that questions the motives of Moore or Conyers, why is that?

It seems to me that Rove would want someone that the liberals thinks represents them to be in reality a supporter of anti-Semitism such as Conyers and Moore.

And I can give you my own opinion about Moore. He was funded and created by Rove. How else could someone that is also a anti-Semitic political thinker end up becoming am award winning so called liberal?

I would never give him an award if I was one of the judges.

And all my research of the liberalism as a liberal Democrat of thinkers such as Gandhi MLK and others have a long history of success for liberal causes and none of them are anti-Semitic. http://www.turnleft.com/libgood.html I don't see any of the Marxist movements that Moore is a product of having achieved anything that liberals and liberalism has.

Did the million man marches modeled after the Farrakhan idea for social change work to stop the Iraq War when 20 or 30 million sheeple marched on the streets around the world? No

Did pacifist’s anti-war protesters that were much less in number and certainly not in any way ant-Semitic stop the Vietnam War? Yes. And even MLK supported them that were opposed to the anti-Semitics by saying that those that hate Zionist Jews hate all Jews and they should not be tolerated by the black community.

The Indians from Gandhi’s India have no anti-Semitic political philosophies and they kicked the British out of their country by pacifist non-violent actions.




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ArmyMajor Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. How is Moore Anti -Semitic
And how come all your sources are Jewish lobby groups.

Is Marxism anti-Semitic in particular?

Is Moore a Marxist?
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satori Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Michael Moore the Rove created liberal of the year 2004 award
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 09:26 PM by satori
http://sibbyonline.blogs.com/sibbyonline/michael_moore/

August 12, 2004
Michael Moore a Leninist

I still remember when David Horowitz told me that Michael Moore is a Leninist. Bejamin Shapiro’s column just happens to make the same argument. Excerpt (I highly recomment reading the whole thing):


Fahrenheit 9/11 gets help offer from Hezbollah

Samantha Ellis
Thursday June 17, 2004
The Guardian

Meanwhile, in the United Arab Emirates, the film is being offered the kind of support it doesn't need. According to Screen International, the UAE-based distributor Front Row Entertainment has been contacted by organisations related to the Hezbollah in Lebanon with offers of help.

http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,12589,1240819,00.html

.Toronto Free Press

Michael Moore is a Terrorist...by Association

by Marcus J. Goldman, MD

July 13, 2004


Moore, a virulently anti-war, peace-loving man, has offered his hand to Hezbollah--a death dealing, virulently anti-Jew, peace-hating terror group Hell bent on destruction. The Guardian recently reported that Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11 will get 911-style help from Hezbollah. Moore’s distributing company, Front Row, will reportedly not reject an offer of help from Hezbollah. The movie industry publication Screen Daily reported: "In terms of marketing the film, Front Row is getting a boost from organizations related to Hezbollah which have rung up from Lebanon to ask if there’s anything they can do to support the film." Front Row Managing Director Gianluca Chacra stated that "We can’t go against these organizations as they could strongly boycott the film in Lebanon and Syria."

That not a single liberal democrat of national prominence has come forward to even remotely question Michael Moore, his message or the baggage he carries, is astounding. Since he remains silent on Hezbollah, Moore’s convoluted trademark logic dictates that he supports the eradication of Jews. Michael Moore, should he not renounce his links to Hezbollah, must be seen as aiding and abetting terror.
http://www.torontofreepress.com/2004/ed071304.htm

Cubans flock to see ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’
Anti-Bush theme resonates with Castro’s message
http://www.walterlippmann.com/moore.a.html

Why I turned my back on AntiWar.com
by Anthony Gancarski Wednesday February 11, 2004 at 06:59 PM

http://utah.indymedia.org/print.php?id=7523

But in the end, it wasn't Ismail Royer that hastened my departure from Antiwar.Com. It was the suspiciously overexposed Groucho-Leninist Michael Moore. Weeks ago, this hack of all trades wrote an essay pimping the familiar "Anybody But Bush" position that the "antiwar" campaign of 2003 had morphed into. Moore took a suspiciously nuanced position in his Antiwar.Com piece, "Dean Supporters, Don't Give Up."

I mentioned that Lyndon LaRouche may have cause to sue Howard Dean for gimmick infringement, suggesting that Dean and Moore both were more products of a suspiciously well-funded cult/branding campaign than of legitimate political discourse. Such claims went too far for Editorial Director Raimondo, who described my column as a "compendium of literary and political no-no's."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=3270

Moore’s enthusiasm with communism extends into popular culture. He directed a video for the now defunct-communist band, Rage Against the Machine. Rage -- who must have set aside their left-wing values long enough to ink a multi-million dollar deal with Sony records – feature a reading list on their website that includes some of counterculture’s recent champions: Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn and Susan Faludi. The site also features some more noteworthy ‘readings’ like Lenin’s ‘State and the Revolution,’ Che Guevera’s ‘Guerilla Warfare,’ and Karl Marx’s ‘Capital, Volume One.
Michael
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ArmyMajor1 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. My Word.....
Is this the direction DU is going…Banning solid lefties and replacing them with people like sartori?

This post and its’ premise are truly alarming.

Moore is an American hero.

Even if you don’t agree with his politics.
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satori Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #55
64. I could be wrong but I doubt it
During the 2000 election while I went to Indymedia as a liberal Democrat, I found most of what they say in those articles to be true. It was a regular mantra of them the Moore groupies Democrats are the same as Republicans, if they had a choice between voting Republican or Democrat they would vote Republican.

As soon as I told them I was half Jewish a pack of them would attack me saying that I was a Zionist Jew, and that I should be a good Jew and not a bad one and want to move to Israel. Then they would say that is why they have to have the suicide bombings so that they would scare Jews so that they would leave Israel or scare people from wanting to move to Israel.

Moore never came on Indymedia once and told them to stop picking on the Jews.

I was actually shocked to see that most Jews have had the same experience with the Moore Groupies when I did a Google on Moore when I would respond to questions like yours. I did not know that his groupies had such an impact on so many even liberal Jews that are probably not even a pacifist like me.

They most of them were Green Party members that sounded like they were Republicans before they became Green.

Don't believe everything you read in the media. I had first hand experience with them. They hate Democrats, Liberals, especially pacifists because they think that a Marxist violent revolution is the only thing that will bring a true democracy to the world.

They despise Gandhi and his non-violent principles but Michael Moore is a god to them.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #64
88. I'm willing to concede that Moore may not be the most....
in depth documentarian, and that productions such as "Hijacking Catastrophe" approach the issue of aggressive Zionism in relation to current administration directions much more carefully.

Do you think that the conservative media may be partially to blame for the Moore following's reaction by equating "neocon" with "Jewish" in stating that anyone who is anti-neocon must therefore be anti-Semitic? And, I should also note, that the reason for the conservative media doing this is partially because of the paleo-conservative (non-neocon) tendencies towards anti-Semitism. The bottom line is: there are plenty, if not a majority, of Jews who are not neocons.

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NotNInch Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #55
74. Truly Alarming - Well Said
This is just a different version of "You're either with us or against us".

Again whole groups of people are being marginalized. Imbedded prejudice is clouding reality. This is the poison we must avoid to move toward a better world of inclusion. Enuf said . . . .
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. I agree and I think we need to be very careful...
when we identify any particular group as representing "the enemy" in identifying precisely what elements or which behaviors within that group we have issues with. As Jamboi himself has just revealed on his DailyKos blog, he identifies himself as an Evangelical Christian, albeit one with Progressive values. In past posts I have been highly critical of Fundamentalist Christians, often referring to "them" as a group and making broad generalizations. In reality there are good and bad people in every group, even amongst the most historically evil of social movements.

The immediate focus should be: who are the criminals, how were they connected, and what were their motivations? The broader context of Dominionism and conservative Christianity are really side issues, which may be important in a culturual context.
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satori Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #75
81. Well you miss the point I made
I think you and others miss the point I made. The way one spots whom are the rotten or the good apples of the group such as the Moore anti-Semitism toward the Jews is if Moore protests and opposes the anti-Semitism in his own group, such as how MLK did for example.

For example if a pack of rabid anti-Semitic left wing Marxist want to ridicule and insult a fellow protester that want to oppose a war because of what happens to be his religious or ancestry and Michael Moore says nothing then that shows that he supports the bigotry.

When MLK was confronted with that issue he quickly spoke out against it as being unbecoming the dissent movement saying that those that are intolerant of the Jews because they see them as Zionist Jews is in reality just bigotry to Jews because he said that it is just anti-Semitism of the Jew.

While Moore, Farrakhan, and Conyers openly say that those that oppose the Zionist Jew are true progressives and protesters.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #52
63. OMG! This is so over-the-top, it is ridiculous!
Michael Moore and Karl Rover??
Howard Dean??

Oh - just saw Lyndon's name - now I remember why the previous posters went bye-bye.

This has been most entertaining! :hi:
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satori Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. Well it is a fact Moore worked for the Nader campaign in 2000
Well during the 2000 election Moore worked full time on the Nader Campaign and most liberals such as myself thought that a vote for Nader was a vote for Bush. I and others worked on some groups like Greens for Gore to get Nader voters to vote Gore in swing states, and Rove actually spent more $$$ on the Nader ads in which the Nader raiders wrote in swing states then Nader himself spent for his ads. This so upset the Nader raiders in the Nader campaign that they defected to the Democrats because they would say they never intended to write ads for Rove and the Republican Party.

Moore did not defect when the facts were out that Rove was spending more $$$ on PR in swing states then even Nader was to run Nader's anti Gore ads.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Why do you trust him more than Conyers?
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satori Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Well I don't agree with Conyers politics
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 07:24 PM by satori
I don't agree with Conyers politics concerning his support of the anti-Semitic views of the PLO, Arafat and Louis Farrakhan. As a pacifist most of my models are Gandhi, MLK, Franz Franz Jägerstätter and others and all of them are very much opposed to the political philosophy of Anti-Semitism.

http://www.geocities.com/munichseptember1972/the_kgb_man.htm
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=9576
http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/JEK/08/09.html
http://www.jdl.org/position/moore.shtml
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #43
80. Some Deep Reflection
Edited on Fri Dec-24-04 08:39 AM by AntiFascist
As the year draws to a close and we celebrate the holidays (or not) I look upon these threads as a small sampling of the problems that currently exist in the larger world: Fundamentalist vs. Progressive, Arab vs. Jew, Democrat vs. Republican, Religious vs. Atheist, Moore vs. anti-Moore, etc. With the help of the internet and world-wide discussion and communication my hope is that 2005 will allow us to achieve an incremental improvement towards peace and well-being for every human no matter how one cuts across humanity. Let's get past this first problem and the future will be more exciting than you or I can possibly imagine.

On edit: the future is exciting, not exiting, sheesh!
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #80
93. Good post.
I'm with you, bro.

Or sis.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
44. No shit.
I discovered this four weeks ago when researching CyberNET. Amway/Quixtar, Legatus, Council for National Policy, Heritage Foundation, Freemasons, check them out.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #44
99. and the Manhattan Institute
scary
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
47. I've believed this from Day 1...

it not only tipped the election in Ohio in favor of Bush, but padded the national popular vote in favor of Bush and turned a number of U.S. Senate and House races in favor of the Republican contestants.


I don't believe for a second that all those Republicans were voted into office -- especially in today's climate. And I don't see a lot of happy faces walking around, do you? ;)
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
56. What the hell does THIS mean?????
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 10:46 PM by ailsagirl
This is the kind of stuff that gives me nightmares...

Madsen wrote:

"I may be out of touch for a few days but what I can say is that the people in charge of the USA right now are extreme wackos who are bent on the End Times and an extinction level event. I covered Rwanda genocide and Middle East terrorism but never encountered anything as crazy as these people."
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Well, what do you THINK it means? n/t
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I don't know
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 11:01 PM by ailsagirl
But I didn't finish reading all the information on that page so I'm doing that now.

Whatever it is, it sounds pretty bad.

But plausible?

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thjay Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
59. what's up with JamBoi?
Jamboi was tombstoned from DU on Dec 15th or 16th after a story posted on the dailykos.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=169513&mesg_id=169673&page=

... but Jamboi still posts at dialykos. I don't know who or what to believe anymore.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I wouldn't give the initial post on DailyKos much credence....
when it was first posted, for some reason I thought it had been posted by kos himself, but it turns out it had been posted by a former (tombstoned) DUer who may have been angry about something. Jamboi has explained to me that he knows very little about LaRouche and didn't understand what this all about.

If you want to know anything more, you can email me at [email protected] .
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phantomvotes Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #60
72. George BUSH declared the colonies in a state of rebellion
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #72
85. Kick
In an age of universal deciet, the truth seems revolutionary-
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/alex_jones-stand_up.mp3
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #85
95. A Conservative Christian Republican says listen to whistleblower Sibel D.
Karl Schwarz's letter to Bush
http://www.rense.com/general58/demand.htm

Karl Schwarz's open letter to Eliot Spitzer titled: A Conservative Christian Republican says listen to whistleblower Sibel D. Edmonds
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112004Schwarz/112004schwarz.html

Entire transcript of John Stadtmiller' National Intel Report w/ Karl Schwarz (in progress)
http://www.rense.com/general60/interviewwithkarlschwarz.htm

Audio Archive of John Stadtmiller' National Intel Report w/ Karl Schwarz
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0412/20041206_Mon_Stadtmiller.m3u

Karl's website
http://www.karlschwarz.com/

Karl Schwarz's expose "Pop Goes the Bush Mythology Bubble", Parts 1, 2, & 3
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120404Schwarz/120404schwarz.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/121004Schwarz/121004schwarz.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/121704Schwarz/121704schwarz.html
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Debbie13 Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #95
101. Anyone want to sign petition http://www.justicefor911.org/
To get the 9/ll investigation?

http://www.justicefor911.org/
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #59
104. I hope I don't get tombstoned for posting this, but.....
Tombstoned DU member Bozos for Bush has just posted a retraction of his comments, in your link, about tombstoned DU member jamboi. He admits that he was wrong about jamboi being part of a disinformation campaign.

http://dus-bozos-for-bush.dailykos.com/

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Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
96. My thoughts exactly...
I've always thought the same thing. It seemed a little too neat how Bush "won" the election, and the popular vote, AND we lost the House and Senate at the same time. All this when there was such an ENORMOUS surge of new voter registration on the part of Democratic supporters, we have probably the most hated President EVER as an incumbent, with low pre-election approval ratings to boot, and yet he and his minions sweep the election?

I don't buy it.

Now, we are finding, as in the case of WA state, that the Democratic candidate actually actually WON the governorship once a recount was done.

I wonder how many other Democratic candidates won that we don't know about?
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
97. Daschle And Castor Were Two Such Victims
Good work! I've believed it all along. In addition to installing Kerry in the White House, I wonder if we still have a chance to block Mel Martinez' installation in the Senate in favor of the true victor, Betty Castor?

http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/KerryPreparingGroundsToUnconcede.htm

Kick for Kerry!
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bmoney07 Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #97
102. True - I am still perplexed on how Castor recieved more votes than Kerry??
Rememeber this is Florida - evrybody and their long lost cousin voted for president. Secondly anyhting to get her in Washington and Smelly Martinez outta of here-
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
103. Jeb Bush's last election -- his opponent went to get court to...
get a recount -- the presiding judge ruled in favor of Jeb stating the "source code was proprietary property of Diebold and they said no. If you saw-heard Jeb's opponent it was like comparing Kerry to *
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