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Statement on the Bev Harris situation

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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:31 PM
Original message
Statement on the Bev Harris situation
Over the past two years Bev Harris has received a great deal of support from the members of Democratic Underground, in her research, publicity efforts, and fundraising. In return we have played host to an 18 month-long squabble between Ms. Harris and other verified voting activists, and have even been threatened with lawuits by Ms. Harris herself. Despite this, we have publicly remained mostly silent on the verified voting squabbles.

We believe verified voting is a topic of crucial importance, and have been uncomfortable taking sides on an issue which, frankly, we should all be on the same side of anyway. Therefore we have kept most of our correspondence with the various factions private and attempted to cool things down behind the scenes. Like all issues discussed at DU, we have tried to focus the discussion of verified voting on the topic at hand, and not on the personalities of the participants. However, in light of the recent troubles, we feel compelled to make a statement.

In 2003 Bev Harris, along with a few other verified voting activists, were banned from DU for engaging in personal squabbles on the message board after they were repeatedly instructed to stop. Around that time, Ms. Harris threatened us with a libel lawsuit, claiming that we could be held responsible for comments made by other message board members who doubted the credibility of her project. She never followed through on this threat and we never heard from her lawyers.

Ms. Harris was reinstated shortly afterwards, after agreeing to put an end to the problems that got her banned in the first place. Nonetheless, those problems periodically recurred after her reinstatement. A few weeks ago, Ms. Harris again used our website to threaten DU with lawsuits, in her postings, in private messages to other members, and in rude alerts she sent to the moderators.

We sent a message to Ms. Harris telling her to stop hassling our moderators and members, and informing her that if she had a legal concern, she needed to contact us directly. We also let her know that her continued participation on this message board was dependent upon her behavior. The legal threats stopped, but we received no response from either Ms. Harris or her lawyers.

This is our personal experience with Ms. Harris. We cannot confirm or deny the veracity of claims made by others, including many former colleagues, her former publisher, and Keith Olbermann. But we can confirm that the claims made by others about Ms. Harris are not inconsistent with our own experiences.

We have remained as patient as possible in our dealings with Ms. Harris because we believe that the topic of verified voting is a crucial one. We were prepared to sacrifice a certain amount of tranquility on the message board if verified voting was being discussed in a generally positive manner.

Ms. Harris's recent spat with Keith Olbermann has made positive discussion of verified voting increasingly difficult on DU. For over a year and a half, our members have been split into pro- and anti-Bev factions, and recent events have only exacerbated that division. Yet this morning Ms. Harris returned to DU and started posting as if nothing had happened, while making liberal use of the alert button to complain to the moderators about our enforcement of the message board rules. At this point our patience finally ran out.

The fact that the disruptions have continued, despite repeated warnings from the administrators, leaves us with no other option but to bar Bev Harris from posting on this website. We no longer believe that it is productive to allow her to use DU as a platform to promote herself while simultaneously trashing us, our moderators, and others who have been previously supportive of her cause.

We still remain firmly committed to promoting discussion of verified voting, and we wish Ms. Harris well in her efforts to shed light on this important issue. From now on, we encourage all of our members to focus on discussing the verified voting issue itself, rather than the personalities involved.

-----------------

This thread will remain open until further notice. Again, we would like to remind everyone to take care to avoid personal attacks. Thank you for your continued cooperation.
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   Replies to this thread
  - 12/03/04 is there any new info about the Bev BBV issue ?  texpatriot2004   Dec-03-04 01:33 PM   #1 
  - No, that ended the same way  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 01:37 PM   #10 
  - Oh, that's what the post above was referring to...that she  texpatriot2004   Dec-03-04 01:41 PM   #19 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-03-04 05:21 PM   #233 
        - Please. Try reading the rest of the thread  crispini   Dec-03-04 05:23 PM   #236 
        - You really should get all the facts  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 05:39 PM   #252 
        - That's exactly my problem with what's happened here.  aquart   Dec-04-04 01:26 AM   #485 
           - I must disagree with part of your statement.  bearfartinthewoods   Dec-04-04 09:40 AM   #540 
           - The firebrands carry the torch.  aquart   Dec-04-04 03:15 PM   #626 
              - most "firebrands" direct their fire at the opposition...  RememberTheCoup   Dec-04-04 03:33 PM   #630 
                 - And you can point to specific examples in history?  aquart   Dec-04-04 05:12 PM   #651 
                    - just common sense  RememberTheCoup   Dec-04-04 05:40 PM   #657 
                    - I'm a professional historian, and I can assure you that many...  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 08:16 PM   #692 
                       - Mr. Historian, do you think the elections will ever be credible?  Higans   Dec-04-04 08:28 PM   #694 
                       - I said that I am an historian, not a fortune teller.  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 08:34 PM   #696 
                       - Mr. "Higans," do you think you could be any more...  T Town Jake   Dec-05-04 02:28 AM   #746 
                       - Historian or psychiatrist? Mental illness? I really do not know what to  Sperk   Dec-04-04 11:00 PM   #711 
                          - Blah, blah, blah - bleh - blah, blah...  T Town Jake   Dec-05-04 02:19 AM   #744 
           - I agree 100% with you....we've been screaming for 4 years for the  Sperk   Dec-04-04 10:53 PM   #710 
           - Carrie Nation was a bug-eyed puritan fanatic...  T Town Jake   Dec-05-04 02:08 AM   #739 
        - "The Baby?" Yes, I would agree that Bev's temperament has been...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 05:47 PM   #258 
        - The lawsuit threats did it for me. :(  Ladyhawk   Dec-03-04 11:48 PM   #437 
        - Go to the archives...  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 06:07 PM   #268 
  - "focus on discussing the verified voting issue" Amen! Principles over per  jamboi   Dec-03-04 02:04 PM   #67 
  - Hey, I have heard that saying before elsewhere, not here.  texpatriot2004   Dec-03-04 02:17 PM   #91 
  - I agree...  AntiFascist   Dec-03-04 03:28 PM   #161 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-04-04 03:36 PM   #631 
     - You obviously haven't read the background links.  RememberTheCoup   Dec-04-04 05:04 PM   #646 
     - From what I saw this week, it looked as if she was under major attack  genius   Dec-04-04 07:36 PM   #683 
        - You've Got To Be Kidding  IAMREALITY   Dec-04-04 07:38 PM   #684 
           - Watch her interview with Dean or "Invisible Ballots" or check on her  genius   Dec-04-04 07:42 PM   #686 
              - I'll give her 2% Credit, Nothing More. 90% is Mass Delusional  IAMREALITY   Dec-04-04 07:44 PM   #689 
                 - And what are you doing to prove Bush cheated?  Constitution   Dec-04-04 08:36 PM   #697 
                    - Everything In My Power  IAMREALITY   Dec-04-04 09:08 PM   #699 
     - Sorry, I'm a personal responsibility type of perrson  Walt Starr   Dec-04-04 05:31 PM   #654 
  - Wow. (eom)  msgadget   Dec-03-04 01:34 PM   #2 
  - My exact thoughts too.  wicket   Dec-03-04 01:35 PM   #4 
  - Earl, Incredible Post!  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 01:34 PM   #3 
  - Content, but no delivery. Just as I suspected.  joeunderdog   Dec-03-04 05:07 PM   #227 
  - Bar none, this is the BEST POST on this topic ever.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 05:23 PM   #234 
  - Is there any documenation of this ANGER....I'm not saying I don't believe  Sperk   Dec-04-04 11:14 PM   #714 
  - Fair enough.  YellowDoginthehouse   Dec-03-04 05:46 PM   #257 
  - Not to sound PolyAnna, But...  suziedemocrat   Dec-03-04 08:54 PM   #359 
  - How many people would even know the terms "blackbox voting"  Eric J in MN   Dec-04-04 11:23 AM   #558 
     - I agree with you to some extent and appreciate what she's done.  joeunderdog   Dec-04-04 01:13 PM   #590 
     - Republicans aren't worried because they own the voting machine companies.  Eric J in MN   Dec-04-04 04:44 PM   #641 
     - No spies  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 06:00 PM   #662 
        - Good leaders have to trust people to make the movement broad...  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 08:28 PM   #695 
     - Hmmm....  Stand and Fight   Dec-04-04 06:03 PM   #664 
  - The bottom line here is that it should be about voting and not about  xultar   Dec-03-04 07:20 PM   #291 
  - Works for me.  Goldmund   Dec-03-04 01:35 PM   #5 
  - Are you serious?  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 01:38 PM   # 
     - It's when you click on their profile. n/t  crispini   Dec-03-04 01:46 PM   #31 
     - Here  Goldmund   Dec-03-04 01:51 PM   #45 
        - That is just Too Goddam funny!  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 01:55 PM   #50 
        - DU is so awesome it is vital we protect it's integrity.  SomthingsGotaGive   Dec-03-04 02:28 PM   #108 
           - YOU ARE 1,000,000% RIGHT  HeyManThatsCool   Dec-03-04 05:31 PM   #244 
        - It says "He Disrupted....Poorly". Maybe we need "She Disrupted poorly" n/t  regularjoe   Dec-03-04 03:31 PM   #163 
  - It is sad that it has come to this....  dennis4868   Dec-03-04 01:36 PM   #6 
  - my feelings exactly )c: n/t  MadAsHellNewYorker   Dec-03-04 01:57 PM   #54 
  - Two bridges burned in two days  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 01:36 PM   #7 
  - 2 - No one bridge burned. n/t  texpatriot2004   Dec-03-04 01:43 PM   #26 
  - After you have burned all the bridges....your left on an island  righteous1   Dec-03-04 02:56 PM   #144 
  - Where will she go to publicize her findings now?  cry baby   Dec-03-04 01:44 PM   #27 
     - Her website? n/t  ohio_liberal   Dec-03-04 01:46 PM   #33 
        - Will MSM take her website seriously?  cry baby   Dec-03-04 01:49 PM   #42 
        - The website...  ohio_liberal   Dec-03-04 01:53 PM   #47 
        - She spent more time at DU than at her own website.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:18 PM   #96 
           - I know  ohio_liberal   Dec-03-04 02:37 PM   #119 
  - Good decision  info being   Dec-03-04 01:36 PM   #8 
  - Some people just do not work well with others  meisje   Dec-03-04 01:37 PM   #9 
  - Earl, we haven't "met" on the boards...  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 01:38 PM   #11 
  - I'd like to add to that.  Left Brain   Dec-03-04 03:03 PM   #150 
  - Thank you very much.  Melinda   Dec-03-04 01:38 PM   #12 
  - (sigh of relief)  troubleinwinter   Dec-03-04 01:38 PM   #13 
  - And the axe came down. Looks like it had to be done. Sad situation n/t  Pepper32   Dec-03-04 01:38 PM   #14 
  - "Use DU" was certainly the right term  nothingshocksmeanymore   Dec-03-04 01:38 PM   #15 
  - thank you for addressing the issue with us...  hlthe2b   Dec-03-04 01:39 PM   #16 
  - Going forward: how can we de-monopolize this issue?  LoZoccolo   Dec-03-04 01:41 PM   #17 
  - May not answer your question,  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 01:44 PM   #28 
  - Where is this letter, please? The link provided would not open for me.  tsuki   Dec-03-04 02:02 PM   #64 
  - letter from members of Congress to Blackwell  Zan_of_Texas   Dec-03-04 08:28 PM   #339 
     - Enforce that those crucial questions be answered!  beets   Dec-04-04 02:05 PM   #609 
  - Hear, hear! The letters are one of the best things to happen  Turn CO Blue   Dec-03-04 05:09 PM   #228 
  - Unfortunate  BlueWolff   Dec-03-04 01:46 PM   #34 
  - There ARE other groups  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 02:22 PM   #101 
  - Just wanted to add a contact  DemOperative   Dec-03-04 04:47 PM   #208 
     - Good group  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 05:31 PM   #246 
        - Don't forget VotersUnite.org  Quick n Low   Dec-04-04 12:37 AM   #458 
  - LoZoccolo, I think you've hit on an important issue that applies elsewhere  Walt Starr   Dec-03-04 05:41 PM   #254 
     - important issue Walt  m berst   Dec-03-04 06:12 PM   #270 
     - Walt, that's a very important point.  yardwork   Dec-03-04 08:19 PM   #331 
  - Although I applaud the patience of the administration  Malikshah   Dec-03-04 01:41 PM   #18 
  - It Would Have Become a Thread Anyway  DoveTurnedHawk   Dec-03-04 02:09 PM   #72 
  - Gee Earl...  Triana   Dec-03-04 01:41 PM   #20 
  - Thanks for filling in some of the background for those of us who are  atommom   Dec-03-04 01:42 PM   #21 
  - What hope is there  Ardee   Dec-03-04 01:42 PM   #22 
  - An excellent decision, EarlG.  Fenris   Dec-03-04 01:42 PM   # 
  - Damn shame, but it sounds like a reasonable & defensible position...  Darknyte7   Dec-03-04 01:42 PM   #23 
  - Sad that we cannot all work together :( n/t  billie_   Dec-03-04 01:42 PM   #24 
  - Especially during such fragile times : ( n/t  goclark   Dec-04-04 09:15 PM   #703 
  - dirty laundry  november3rd   Dec-03-04 01:42 PM   #25 
  - Sometimes there is a certain amount of truth to be found in dirty laundry  info being   Dec-03-04 01:44 PM   #29 
  - Rumours run rampant 'round here  Feathered Fish   Dec-03-04 01:45 PM   #30 
  - Well Since you only have 29 posts I can see why you might not understand  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 01:46 PM   #35 
  - Because  Winamericaback   Dec-03-04 01:48 PM   #40 
  - Typically we do not discuss why DU members are banned  EarlG   Dec-03-04 01:49 PM   #43 
  - Thank you , I appreciate your being open with us so much.  bunny planet   Dec-03-04 02:11 PM   #79 
  - I'm glad, too...  rainbow4321   Dec-04-04 01:19 AM   #483 
  - Bev has made herself a 'public' figure  DoYouEverWonder   Dec-03-04 03:10 PM   #153 
     - I was wondering the same DYEW...  leftchick   Dec-03-04 03:52 PM   #180 
  - Peddle it elsewhere. This isn't the time or appropriate thread for it.  T Town Jake   Dec-03-04 01:51 PM   #46 
  - Actually I REALLY appreciate it!  TruthOutDawg   Dec-03-04 01:57 PM   #53 
  - Resources for Recount  Zan_of_Texas   Dec-03-04 08:41 PM   #349 
  - I think this was the best way to approach this issue  intelle   Dec-03-04 03:49 PM   #176 
  - The High Road  HeyManThatsCool   Dec-03-04 05:39 PM   #253 
  - lots of us, like me, have followed some of this and have become  bobbieinok   Dec-04-04 07:42 PM   #687 
  - good decision  Snivi Yllom   Dec-03-04 01:46 PM   #32 
  - I applaud the fairness and objectivity of the Admins...  T Town Jake   Dec-03-04 01:47 PM   #36 
  - I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Admin.  Coventina   Dec-03-04 01:47 PM   #37 
  - agreed.  Lerkfish   Dec-03-04 04:09 PM   #188 
  - I'm a newbie, but lurked a long time  lulu in NC   Dec-03-04 09:40 PM   #394 
  - Well, done, moderator, and best of luck to Bev  KathmanduKid   Dec-03-04 10:46 PM   #423 
  - Good decision, now let's move on!  Razorback_Democrat   Dec-03-04 01:47 PM   #38 
  - Price of responsibility  Old Mouse   Dec-03-04 01:47 PM   #39 
  - We here in the Maat household support you fully, EarlG!  Maat   Dec-03-04 01:49 PM   # 
  - There was so much fighting going on that I was afraid to ask  spotbird   Dec-03-04 01:49 PM   #41 
  - Does anybody have Bev Harris' birth date information?  JD Lau   Dec-03-04 01:49 PM   #44 
  - Perhaps that, her social security number and major credit cards would  nothingshocksmeanymore   Dec-03-04 01:58 PM   # 
  - No kidding  Razorback_Democrat   Dec-03-04 02:01 PM   #63 
  - Good Lord, you can go to just about any astro site on the web,  JD Lau   Dec-03-04 02:07 PM   #69 
  - LOL  Goldmund   Dec-03-04 02:01 PM   #62 
  - How about sleep deprivation and stress?  CyberChas   Dec-03-04 02:06 PM   #68 
  - Yeah, but different people handle stress and sleep depriviation  JD Lau   Dec-03-04 02:11 PM   #80 
  - Sounds like a uranus transit, almost.  YellowDoginthehouse   Dec-03-04 09:13 PM   #374 
  - I hear you  jbnow   Dec-03-04 10:00 PM   #409 
     - I was really getting Scorpio and Pluto issues ...  sunnystarr   Dec-05-04 12:08 AM   #720 
  - Thank you Earl.  saracat   Dec-03-04 01:53 PM   #48 
  - Are you sure it's the real Bev Harris  JoMama49   Dec-03-04 01:54 PM   #49 
  - Karl Rove in Drag -- *shudder* -- LOL n/t  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 01:58 PM   #55 
  - karl in drag..... doesn't look a bit like Bev!  nostamj   Dec-03-04 02:29 PM   #110 
     - LMFAO  ohio_liberal   Dec-03-04 02:39 PM   #121 
     - This is hysterical...LOL!!  intelle   Dec-03-04 04:01 PM   #184 
     - yes..but add the right wig!!  DemOperative   Dec-03-04 04:53 PM   #214 
  - They have her IP adress.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:00 PM   #57 
  - I was wondering that too.  Dolphyn   Dec-03-04 02:00 PM   #58 
     - Without DU, she wouldn't be doing ANYTHING in Florida.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:15 PM   #86 
        - Maddy...I noticed this too  intelle   Dec-03-04 04:07 PM   #187 
           - Used  Unforgiven   Dec-03-04 09:07 PM   #372 
  - Another win for the repugs in the divide and rule philosophy  jmatthan   Dec-03-04 01:55 PM   #51 
  - Bev wouldn't have been on Malloy or any other media forum  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:01 PM   #60 
  - Sorry, but I have heard a lot of  jmatthan   Dec-03-04 02:17 PM   #92 
     - You miss the point.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:38 PM   #120 
     - Yep, it goes waaaaay back and is in the DU archives  Walt Starr   Dec-03-04 02:42 PM   #126 
     - and ultimately, the whole case of electrion fraud will be nowhere  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 03:05 PM   #152 
     - actually Skip Fox IIRC used to post a compendium of BBV issues  nothingshocksmeanymore   Dec-03-04 04:11 PM   #190 
     - where IS Skip Fox today??  DemOperative   Dec-03-04 04:55 PM   #219 
        - He still posts but is busy and is probably still in mourning, I imagine  nothingshocksmeanymore   Dec-03-04 04:59 PM   #223 
     - The earliest reference I have come up  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 05:43 PM   #255 
     - You're exactly right about the historical aspect  Faun Otter   Dec-03-04 04:25 PM   #199 
        - Faun Otter is on a very short list of names of people in the U.S.  bleever   Dec-03-04 08:48 PM   #353 
     - Hey Jacob  SomthingsGotaGive   Dec-04-04 04:04 AM   #518 
     - Jacob, could I get  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 10:57 AM   #551 
  - It is difficult for a strong personality to throw themselves into a fight  tsuki   Dec-03-04 02:09 PM   #73 
  - And none of those are really MSM. Preaching to the choir.  saracat   Dec-03-04 03:03 PM   #148 
  - NO  HeyManThatsCool   Dec-03-04 05:43 PM   #256 
  - OFGS! Whatever you gave you gave to what you thought was a good  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 09:33 PM   #388 
  - I knew it was bad, but I had no idea that it was THAT bad.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 01:56 PM   #52 
  - Let's Keep Supporting Keith Olbermann  ClarkUSA   Dec-03-04 02:15 PM   #87 
     - I have emailed him twice, thanking him for his journalistic efforts.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:40 PM   #124 
        - I wonder if anybody will email him this Thread Post n/t  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 02:47 PM   #135 
        - I emailed him too today, thanking him for his objectivity and  rockedthevoteinMA   Dec-03-04 02:48 PM   #137 
  - Very sorry to hear this about Bev.  Casablanca   Dec-03-04 01:58 PM   #56 
  - Back To Issues  stirringstill   Dec-03-04 02:08 PM   #70 
  - End of the story.  crispini   Dec-03-04 02:00 PM   #59 
  - Good decision  Miami Liberal   Dec-03-04 02:01 PM   #61 
  - I'm sorry, but I don't agree this is Bev's fault as you imply  Ducks In A Row   Dec-03-04 02:03 PM   #65 
  - And I am sick and tired of you calling anyone who has issues with Bev a  nothingshocksmeanymore   Dec-03-04 02:09 PM   #71 
  - Clarification  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 02:33 PM   #114 
  - regarding the salaried employee issue----  carolinalady   Dec-03-04 02:46 PM   #133 
  - Maybe she does draw a large salary....  AntiFascist   Dec-03-04 03:45 PM   #172 
  - What I have suspected all along is that...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 03:53 PM   #181 
  - If that is the case she should consider running for office as a  Lone_Star_Dem   Dec-03-04 08:18 PM   #330 
     - It wouldn't be that far fetched for her to do so as a Republican.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 08:51 PM   #355 
        - I didn't know about it until I read it a couple of days ago here.  Lone_Star_Dem   Dec-04-04 12:29 AM   #455 
  - I agree, it's about a movie or video rights  high density   Dec-04-04 02:10 AM   #503 
  - As will many people  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 03:47 PM   #174 
  - Ahh...but it's all in the archives of DU  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:47 PM   #134 
  - Thank you!  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 03:31 PM   #164 
  - you should be banned from using the work "freeper" n/t  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 02:11 PM   #77 
  - Or just the first part of the sentence.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:17 PM   #93 
     - Thing is, with repetition...  LoZoccolo   Dec-03-04 02:21 PM   #100 
     - The problem is, there is no opinion of theirs to disagree with.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:35 PM   #116 
        - So if the LePlore thing was just a PR stunt....so what....I hope you  Sperk   Dec-04-04 11:32 PM   #717 
     - I did, I did -- even if in private messages.  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 03:39 PM   #169 
  - But has she been honest?  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:12 PM   #82 
  - I like KO and I'm not a freeper  cry baby   Dec-03-04 02:16 PM   #88 
  - I second that! I wish the best for all involved.  regularjoe   Dec-03-04 03:19 PM   #157 
  - Boy, Ducks, I'd be very interested to hear, why, exactly,  crispini   Dec-03-04 02:18 PM   #94 
  - It reminds me of GWB  HeyManThatsCool   Dec-03-04 05:48 PM   #259 
  - Wooohooooooo Keith!  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 02:25 PM   #106 
  - Olbermann was fired from Faux for not spouting RW BS. I'll take Mr. O  mzmolly   Dec-03-04 05:26 PM   # 
  - Olbermann worked for Fox? Ewwwwwwww! When was that?  IStriker   Dec-03-04 09:49 PM   #401 
  - can you see where this would lead?  m berst   Dec-03-04 06:48 PM   #279 
  - m berst...  Chili   Dec-04-04 05:10 AM   #523 
     - thanks Chili  m berst   Dec-04-04 06:00 AM   #526 
  - Good post, Ducks in a Row.  genius   Dec-04-04 07:24 PM   #679 
     - On The FlipSide  IAMREALITY   Dec-04-04 07:35 PM   #682 
        - Good leaders are productive. They get RESULTS  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 08:23 PM   #693 
           - Maddy, I agree with you COMPLETELY  IAMREALITY   Dec-04-04 09:10 PM   #700 
           - Yes, indeed I did. I was responding to Ducks  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 09:17 PM   #704 
           - The best leaders NEVER take credit  Walt Starr   Dec-04-04 10:11 PM   #709 
  - Good bye and Good Riddance to Bev  Broken Acorn   Dec-03-04 02:03 PM   #66 
  - I was thinking..  HEAVYHEART   Dec-03-04 02:10 PM   #74 
  - Bump and kick  HEAVYHEART   Dec-03-04 02:14 PM   #83 
  - Hear hear! Verified Voting is too VITAL to be reduced to personalities  glitch   Dec-03-04 02:10 PM   #75 
  - Some people simply do not have the capacity to communicate with others  Jersey Devil   Dec-03-04 02:11 PM   #76 
  - She Threatened to Sue Over "Cleanup Crew"?!?  DoveTurnedHawk   Dec-03-04 02:17 PM   #89 
  - Yes, there are still several threads on it in the Voting Issues forum  Jersey Devil   Dec-03-04 02:35 PM   #117 
  - Here's the specifics on the trademark  Faun Otter   Dec-03-04 04:50 PM   #211 
     - From this it looks like it is quite possible that Ms. Harris may be  carolinalady   Dec-03-04 04:53 PM   #217 
        - It doesn't work like that  Faun Otter   Dec-03-04 06:24 PM   #274 
           - Thanks--sorry for my ignorance. :)  carolinalady   Dec-03-04 06:30 PM   #276 
           - Yes....I had a big problem with her outburst on that. Thought about it  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 09:11 PM   #373 
              - I'm no expert on this  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 09:14 PM   #375 
                 - I was on DU lurking within the first five months...I've been here a long  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 10:07 PM   #411 
                    - then your statement isn't exactly correct...  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 10:10 PM   #413 
                       - yes...that's what I said....she built on what DU computer code  KoKo01   Dec-04-04 11:59 AM   #567 
                          - Check this post  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 12:36 PM   #576 
  - Yes, it is laughable. She claimed a phrase in the common lexicon was...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:45 PM   #130 
  - It was "BBV Clean Up Crew"  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 03:37 PM   #167 
     - It's so transparent, isn't it? She wasn't worried about protecting her...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 03:59 PM   #183 
  - Yeah, that's what made me go, "WTF?" n/t  Ladyhawk   Dec-04-04 12:11 AM   #444 
  - Yes, she did  illuminaughty   Dec-04-04 02:49 AM   #509 
  - Good call  Shopaholic   Dec-03-04 02:17 PM   #90 
  - Thanks for diplomacy  SueZhope   Dec-03-04 02:11 PM   #78 
  - Behind the scenes things are different than they appear  StClone   Dec-03-04 02:12 PM   #81 
  - I'm wondering how much of what she said is even true.  Ladyhawk   Dec-04-04 12:18 AM   #445 
     - crossed my mind earlier today...  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 12:22 AM   #448 
  - With Regret, I Agree  Vinnie From Indy   Dec-03-04 02:14 PM   #84 
  - See that's the thing, though  Donailin   Dec-03-04 08:06 PM   #322 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-03-04 08:10 PM   #326 
     - We're all hypocrites, that's not the point  Donailin   Dec-03-04 08:23 PM   #334 
        - No YOU don't get it  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 08:25 PM   #336 
        - This is nuts:  Donailin   Dec-03-04 08:45 PM   #351 
           - has nothing to do with learning a lesson  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 08:49 PM   #354 
        - Honestly, I don't believe she will ever find a smoking gun  Walt Starr   Dec-03-04 08:28 PM   #338 
        - she said she has it !!!  SomthingsGotaGive   Dec-04-04 05:15 AM   #524 
     - This is the best-moderated site I've seen, and I too have thousands  yardwork   Dec-03-04 08:34 PM   #344 
     - She's been one step from "finding the smoking gun" for months...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 10:07 PM   #410 
     - Make that years  unfrigginreal   Dec-04-04 10:40 AM   #548 
     - Impartial observer?  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 10:09 PM   #412 
     - "biased exclusive forum" - sheer nonsense...  T Town Jake   Dec-03-04 11:10 PM   #428 
        - My word for the day  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 01:08 AM   #478 
           - Of or relating to the spleen?  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 01:10 AM   #479 
  - Sorry for you guys  sonoradesertdem   Dec-03-04 02:15 PM   #85 
  - Ok  HEAVYHEART   Dec-03-04 02:18 PM   #95 
     - I don't think so.  chimpy the poopthrower   Dec-03-04 02:39 PM   #122 
     - ever see this site?  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 02:44 PM   #129 
     - Thanks for the link.  HEAVYHEART   Dec-03-04 03:26 PM   #160 
     - Thanks for responding. I appreciate it.  HEAVYHEART   Dec-03-04 03:25 PM   #159 
     - LOL Now tha's a NEW one.  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 03:38 PM   #168 
  - The same scenario engulfed the founder of MADD  Straight Shooter   Dec-03-04 02:19 PM   #97 
  - Nice post, Straight Shooter  intelle   Dec-03-04 04:43 PM   #206 
  - this deserves a  bunny planet   Dec-03-04 02:20 PM   #98 
  - BEV IS NOT PERFECT. NO ONE IS. BUT SHE HAS DONE A LOT MORE GOOD THAN BAD.  TruthIsAll   Dec-03-04 02:21 PM   #99 
  - None of us deny that she's done a lot.  LoZoccolo   Dec-03-04 02:22 PM   #102 
  - BBV Is far from a household word  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 02:25 PM   #105 
  - Agreed. n/t  Pepper32   Dec-03-04 03:03 PM   #149 
  - Once again. I agree.  saracat   Dec-03-04 03:13 PM   #154 
     - Saracat...I agree...n/t  intelle   Dec-03-04 04:48 PM   #210 
  - So is Bev's Accountant  Vinnie From Indy   Dec-03-04 02:28 PM   #109 
  - Lovely analogy  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:29 PM   #111 
  - Horrible analogy.  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 04:06 PM   #186 
     - I agree  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 04:14 PM   #193 
        - You've got it buddy!  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 05:59 PM   #264 
  - It seems to me that we (on the whole) are grateful...  cry baby   Dec-03-04 02:33 PM   #113 
  - Were your particular posts banned or did you have to create another  Sparkle   Dec-03-04 02:46 PM   #132 
  - DU apparently did more to make BBV a household word.  saracat   Dec-03-04 02:55 PM   #141 
  - Would love to see actual evidence of all this.  KatieB   Dec-03-04 03:46 PM   #173 
  - Read the OP.  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 04:10 PM   #189 
  - Thanks . You saved me the trouble. Sheesh , the link is right in  saracat   Dec-03-04 04:21 PM   #197 
  - Do you have the search feature? True curiosity to get to the bottom of it?  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 05:57 PM   #263 
  - Saracat....you are wrong about that...and I usually agree with you, but  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 04:56 PM   #220 
     - I appreciate her work. I just meant DU gave her a forum.  saracat   Dec-03-04 05:37 PM   #250 
     - Karl Rove and Tom DeLay's Ego seemed to have "Triumphed." I leave  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 06:23 PM   #273 
     - Get the word out.  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 07:26 PM   #292 
     - Agreed. I sent just the BBV like to many and hundreds of new people  fearnobush   Dec-04-04 07:47 PM   #690 
  - She is not a *little*  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 03:35 PM   #166 
  - I agree with you....she brought the issue forward and got "publicity" for  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 04:13 PM   #191 
  - A mixed bag, like most of us  Proud2BAmurkin   Dec-04-04 01:11 AM   #480 
  - No....YOU TIA have done EXEC LENT work.  SomthingsGotaGive   Dec-04-04 05:41 AM   #525 
  - no one accused you of anything  foo_bar   Dec-04-04 11:41 PM   #718 
  - My hat goes off to the DU administrators  Walt Starr   Dec-03-04 02:23 PM   #103 
  - Wow, I didn't realize Ms. Harris was like that.  Sparkle   Dec-03-04 02:23 PM   #104 
  - Are you aware of her history?  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:36 PM   #118 
  - Maybe she'll start selling bandaids?  Walt Starr   Dec-03-04 02:48 PM   #136 
  - Well...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:51 PM   #139 
  - Why not, *ush is getting a book overnighted?  djmaddox1   Dec-04-04 03:43 AM   #516 
  - Yup  intelle   Dec-03-04 04:52 PM   #213 
  - Disgusting  sepia_steel   Dec-03-04 02:51 PM   #140 
     - I think you have captured it  intelle   Dec-03-04 04:53 PM   #216 
  - Excellent decision  SheWhoMustBeObeyed   Dec-03-04 02:27 PM   #107 
  - Thank you  GoPsUx   Dec-03-04 02:31 PM   #112 
  - Bev who?  DubyaSux   Dec-03-04 02:34 PM   #115 
  - I don't know enough about what's happened to comment, but . . .  OneBlueSky   Dec-03-04 02:40 PM   #123 
  - It is not a secret that I have been very skeptical of Bev,  Truman01   Dec-03-04 02:41 PM   #125 
  - Just a thought or two for the moderators....  geo   Dec-03-04 02:43 PM   #127 
  - Just a point  Walt Starr   Dec-03-04 02:46 PM   #131 
  - some prophet once said:  Donailin   Dec-03-04 06:26 PM   #275 
     - I try not to forgive people until they at LEAST stop smiting me.  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 06:37 PM   #278 
     - It's not a question of forgiveness -- not even close  Eloriel   Dec-03-04 08:36 PM   #346 
        - Thank you for mentioning that there are many others  cry baby   Dec-03-04 11:14 PM   #429 
  - LOL! Your whole premise is flawed.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 02:49 PM   #138 
  - Listen to Maddy...  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 04:17 PM   #194 
  - Delete Dupe  saracat   Dec-03-04 03:18 PM   #155 
  - Apparently not. The "time out" didn't work.  saracat   Dec-03-04 03:18 PM   #156 
  - Already a second chance, and KO is reporting the same behavior.  smartvoter   Dec-03-04 03:20 PM   #158 
  - Thanks geo--"stressed to the max" was my first thought.  anamandujano   Dec-03-04 04:47 PM   #207 
  - You are fairly new (as am I)  intelle   Dec-03-04 05:13 PM   #229 
  - Another thought:  intelle   Dec-03-04 05:17 PM   #230 
  - Strong move, EarlG.  americanstranger   Dec-03-04 02:44 PM   #128 
  - great reply  dwickham   Dec-03-04 02:55 PM   #142 
  - Thank you for letting us know what & why.  Rainbowreflect   Dec-03-04 02:55 PM   #143 
  - Had to be done.  Old and In the Way   Dec-03-04 02:57 PM   #145 
  - thanks for posting this explanation  thinkingwoman   Dec-03-04 02:59 PM   #146 
  - I didn't realize the the history........... thanks for sharing nm  propagandafreegal   Dec-03-04 03:02 PM   #147 
  - Well said!  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 03:05 PM   #151 
  - The Legal Threats Make it Very Difficult for DU  ribofunk   Dec-03-04 03:31 PM   #162 
  - Very well stated, EarlG  DancingBear   Dec-03-04 03:33 PM   #165 
  - More patience than she deserved  Mick Knox   Dec-03-04 03:41 PM   #170 
  - DO NOT BAN BEV  KatieB   Dec-03-04 03:43 PM   #171 
  - It's already done. But, don't you think you need to question that...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 03:48 PM   #175 
  - Is someone trying to discredit her work with this personality focus?  KatieB   Dec-03-04 04:17 PM   #195 
  - Can't you see that if the personality gets in the way of the work...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 04:20 PM   #196 
  - Many folks feel Michael Moore's "Personality" gets in the way of His Work!  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 07:09 PM   #284 
     - Bev is NO Michael Moore.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 07:42 PM   #303 
        - There are parts to the "Votergate Documentary" which seem to show that  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 07:54 PM   #313 
           - Ya know, regardless...  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 07:57 PM   #315 
           - Yes...I see your point here...but don't we have room for both Moore & Bev?  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 08:04 PM   #321 
              - Not sure I agree the media has loved it  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 08:08 PM   #324 
                 - Look at this proof that the media didn't love her ! Read Olberman's  saracat   Dec-04-04 04:49 AM   #521 
                    - I read that too Saracat, and it really made me nervous -  rockedthevoteinMA   Dec-04-04 12:17 PM   #570 
           - Sorry KoKo, but its DUers like you who are disrupting the cause....  AntiFascist   Dec-03-04 08:24 PM   #335 
              - My read of your post is that you think I haven't watched "Votergate" and  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 08:51 PM   #356 
                 - No, I think we are being a little too self-centered about all of this....  AntiFascist   Dec-03-04 09:27 PM   #383 
  - It's her own behavior that's the problem. What good is the work  smartvoter   Dec-03-04 04:37 PM   #203 
  - Seriously! I'm sorry,  Donailin   Dec-03-04 06:17 PM   #272 
     - Ugly? Many here were attacked - threatened with law suits, slimed  robbedvoter   Dec-03-04 06:49 PM   #280 
     - allegations  Donailin   Dec-03-04 07:32 PM   #295 
        - Felt The Need To Expand For You  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 07:35 PM   #298 
        - Camparing Bev to Hitler????  Donailin   Dec-03-04 08:31 PM   #340 
           - Sighhhhhhhh  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 08:33 PM   #342 
              - Proof. (Like playing whack-a-mole)  Donailin   Dec-03-04 08:52 PM   #358 
                 - Yup  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 08:55 PM   #361 
                    - I think Tailgunner Joe McCarthy is a good Bev comparison.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 09:17 PM   #376 
                    - Maddy,  americanstranger   Dec-03-04 09:29 PM   #384 
                    - Thanks!  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 09:37 PM   #393 
                    - Love The Analogy/Imagery n/t  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 09:31 PM   #386 
                    - Now that  Donailin   Dec-03-04 09:57 PM   #408 
                    - And again. .  Donailin   Dec-03-04 09:54 PM   #406 
        - How about look at it this way  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 07:36 PM   #300 
        - OK  Donailin   Dec-03-04 10:42 PM   #421 
           - You and I agree more than we disagree  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 10:47 PM   #424 
           - Olbermann was a sportscaster, Bev was a"Clinton Cigar" salesperson.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 10:49 PM   #425 
           - Hmmm....  Stand and Fight   Dec-04-04 06:28 PM   #670 
           - While Bev was selling those Clinton Cigars...  high density   Dec-04-04 03:34 AM   #515 
              - nice article  Donailin   Dec-04-04 09:40 AM   #539 
        - Allegations, my sweet ass!  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 09:07 PM   #371 
        - Now this sheds some light.  Donailin   Dec-03-04 11:00 PM   #426 
        - After hours of reading  Donailin   Dec-04-04 07:56 AM   #531 
           - Apology happily accepted  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 12:13 PM   #568 
           - Integrity matters  Donailin   Dec-04-04 11:12 PM   #713 
           - No apology necessary to me  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 12:38 PM   #578 
              - Same  Donailin   Dec-04-04 11:09 PM   #712 
        - You ask for proof  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 09:41 PM   #395 
        - chill  Donailin   Dec-03-04 11:06 PM   #427 
        - Blah, blah, blah...  T Town Jake   Dec-05-04 01:43 AM   #736 
     - Let me tell you something.  americanstranger   Dec-03-04 07:17 PM   #289 
     - Someone accused YOU of being a freeper? Wow. :)  Ladyhawk   Dec-04-04 12:42 AM   #462 
     - To whom do you refer as "the OP?"  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 08:56 PM   #362 
     - Read some archives -  Faun Otter   Dec-03-04 09:30 PM   #385 
        - Ah, you are right  Donailin   Dec-04-04 08:05 AM   #532 
           - Donailin LOL  IAMREALITY   Dec-04-04 10:24 AM   #545 
           - My God  Donailin   Dec-04-04 11:17 PM   #716 
           - Thanks for taking the time to read  Faun Otter   Dec-04-04 12:45 PM   #583 
              - No problem., Peace!  Donailin   Dec-04-04 11:15 PM   #715 
  - I am beginning to think "yup"  intelle   Dec-03-04 05:28 PM   #240 
  - You should be asking her why she behaves this way.  smartvoter   Dec-03-04 03:50 PM   #177 
  - Do you think we'll lose people over this?  smartvoter   Dec-03-04 03:52 PM   #179 
  - Appear to be in the distinct minority KB  righteous1   Dec-03-04 03:54 PM   #182 
  - I 'm sure there are two sides to the story.....  liberalnurse   Dec-03-04 04:05 PM   #185 
  - She has obvious delegation of authority problems  Jersey Devil   Dec-03-04 04:38 PM   #204 
  - Biting?  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 05:57 PM   #262 
  - once again, democratic in-fighting  emcguffie   Dec-03-04 04:31 PM   #201 
  - I can tell your from first-hand experience  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 05:24 PM   #237 
  - never forgetting  emcguffie   Dec-03-04 05:53 PM   #261 
     - Not at all,  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 06:03 PM   #267 
  - It's too important to leave to someone  americanstranger   Dec-03-04 06:08 PM   #269 
  - The e-voting fraud issue is/was always bigger than Bev, Countless DU-ers  robbedvoter   Dec-03-04 05:50 PM   #260 
  - Thanks for a reasoned and gracious explanation. DU is the best managed  milkyway   Dec-03-04 03:51 PM   #178 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-03-04 04:13 PM   #192 
  - Good work  indigo11153   Dec-03-04 04:22 PM   #198 
  - Good Call.... Personal Bickering is a Sad, Absurd Waste of Time!! n/t  americanwhothinks   Dec-03-04 04:30 PM   #200 
  - I support the DU admins 100% on their decision  yardwork   Dec-03-04 04:34 PM   #202 
  - but its a sad day for those of us in FLA!!!  flyarm   Dec-03-04 04:53 PM   #215 
  - You're not the first to talk about shut-out volunteers  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 04:58 PM   #221 
  - Now THAT's a tragedy.  crispini   Dec-03-04 05:04 PM   #226 
  - Please give Keith O our regards. His work is greatly appreciated.  mzmolly   Dec-03-04 05:33 PM   #248 
  - Yes, and tell him that  crispini   Dec-03-04 07:00 PM   #283 
  - since you know him, a silly question?  emcguffie   Dec-03-04 06:32 PM   #277 
  - answer to your question  flyarm   Dec-03-04 09:24 PM   #380 
  - Thanks for sharing this  illuminaughty   Dec-05-04 04:49 AM   #755 
  - WOW!  gorbal   Dec-03-04 04:59 PM   #222 
     - Believe me, you're not the only one.  JohnnyCougar   Dec-03-04 05:31 PM   #247 
  - I agree with Earl's decision 100%  MichaelHarris   Dec-03-04 04:41 PM   #205 
  - Well it had to be done. I respect this decision by the owners of DU.  cat_girl25   Dec-03-04 04:47 PM   #209 
  - ya know, when I told this to my husband last night...  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 04:52 PM   #212 
     - It's the tackiest damn thing I've ever heard  Eloriel   Dec-03-04 08:58 PM   #365 
        - uh uh... should I admit this...  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 09:01 PM   #367 
  - THANK YOU!!!!!  JohnnyCougar   Dec-03-04 04:54 PM   #218 
  - Good call - not a minute too soon. Issues over personalities -  robbedvoter   Dec-03-04 05:02 PM   #224 
  - I applaud your decision.  BlackVelvet04   Dec-03-04 05:03 PM   #225 
  - Well that settles it for me  Must_B_Free   Dec-03-04 05:17 PM   #231 
  - Do you have something else to say?  LoZoccolo   Dec-03-04 05:25 PM   #238 
  - Bev Harris is self destructive...  bevb   Dec-03-04 05:19 PM   #232 
  - Bev  dawn_fayhe   Dec-03-04 05:23 PM   #235 
  - Dawn, I am just curious  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 05:26 PM   #239 
  - HI THERE!  dawn_fayhe   Dec-03-04 05:29 PM   #243 
     - Ah, okay  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 06:14 PM   #271 
  - Which conservatives?  LoZoccolo   Dec-03-04 05:28 PM   #241 
  - If the work was so "important" to her.  Fud   Dec-04-04 05:04 AM   #522 
  - You want to see whose fault this is? Read these DU archival links:  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 06:00 PM   #265 
     - Wow.  crispini   Dec-03-04 06:50 PM   #281 
     - Holy crap...who's that Melinda on the second to last thread?  JohnnyCougar   Dec-03-04 07:43 PM   #304 
     - You buyin?  Melinda   Dec-03-04 09:50 PM   #402 
        - Okay--I will buy!  JohnnyCougar   Dec-03-04 11:15 PM   #431 
     - Sad. Really. Really. Sad.  yowzayowzayowza   Dec-03-04 07:57 PM   #317 
     - Thanks for this. I have only read three of them so far. This is some good  Bethany Rockafella   Dec-04-04 12:00 AM   #440 
  - Excellent Post  HeyManThatsCool   Dec-03-04 05:29 PM   #242 
  - Kick her while she's down, eh?  goodhue   Dec-03-04 05:31 PM   #245 
  - You jest?  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 05:34 PM   #249 
  - urgh - never mind  taken   Dec-03-04 07:18 PM   #290 
  - Down? As in "down in Florida"?  robbedvoter   Dec-03-04 05:38 PM   #251 
  - Thanks so much EarlG  symbolman   Dec-03-04 06:02 PM   #266 
  - Whatever her personality issues are, we can't afford to ban Bev Harris  ElementaryPenguin   Dec-03-04 06:54 PM   #282 
  - Look at it another way...  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 07:13 PM   #286 
  - I disagree...  regnaD kciN   Dec-03-04 09:42 PM   #396 
     - um... I'm not sure  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 09:50 PM   #403 
        - I'm not implying that Bev is blameless...  regnaD kciN   Dec-04-04 01:04 AM   #474 
           - lot of us are doing lots of things  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 01:08 AM   #477 
              - I'm a newbie (see # posts)  Im with Rosey   Dec-04-04 07:21 AM   #528 
  - "An ally of the likes of Joseph Stalin"?  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 07:17 PM   #287 
  - If you are an American, YOUR country was an ally of Joseph Stalin  ElementaryPenguin   Dec-03-04 07:28 PM   #294 
     - What? So what!  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 07:43 PM   #305 
     - Yeah, and then came the Cold War and the threat of...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 10:37 PM   #419 
  - Yeah, what you said. This is a sad day.  taken   Dec-03-04 07:17 PM   #288 
  - And that's why the 'gods'  dweller   Dec-04-04 01:53 AM   #491 
  - Elementary  IndyPriest   Dec-03-04 07:48 PM   #306 
  - Unbelievable  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 09:50 PM   #404 
  - the good news is  garybeck   Dec-03-04 07:09 PM   #285 
  - precisely !  SomthingsGotaGive   Dec-03-04 07:28 PM   #293 
     - it dosn't look lik he's been banned n/t  JohnnyCougar   Dec-03-04 09:44 PM   #398 
  - Thank you EarlG, Elad, Skinner, and all DUers that have contributed  Swamp Rat   Dec-03-04 07:34 PM   #296 
  - ??  vol5516   Dec-03-04 07:34 PM   #297 
  - It has been speculated on  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 09:57 PM   #407 
  - I suggested it the other day, and was told I was projecting!  bunny planet   Dec-04-04 04:06 PM   #636 
  - Don't Understand - Why Ban Bev Now?  krag   Dec-03-04 07:35 PM   #299 
  - Not About That  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 07:37 PM   #301 
  - You're Completely Missing th e Point.  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 07:50 PM   #308 
  - GACK! An Academic Response when the person is really asking "Why Now?"  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 07:57 PM   #316 
  - Thank you, KoKo. n/t  IndyPriest   Dec-03-04 08:16 PM   #329 
  - aaaccckkkk!  dweller   Dec-04-04 02:03 AM   #498 
  - I agree 500 percent with you  DanSpillane   Dec-03-04 08:09 PM   #325 
  - Apparently, you know nothing about how projects work  JohnnyCougar   Dec-03-04 09:48 PM   #400 
  - democracy may not survive W, but it can surely survive banning Bev  robbedvoter   Dec-03-04 09:02 PM   #369 
     - LOL @ your header.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 09:21 PM   #377 
  - Thanks for doing this  CarbonDate   Dec-03-04 07:40 PM   #302 
  - Results of The Poll  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 07:50 PM   #307 
  - You should post the other answers too n/t  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 07:51 PM   #309 
  - Ya know, YOU coulda done it....  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 07:53 PM   #311 
  - LOL...  Stand and Fight   Dec-03-04 07:52 PM   #310 
  - Yeah,  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 07:55 PM   #314 
  - That's 50 TOTAL votes  Cornus   Dec-03-04 07:53 PM   #312 
  - link to poll please nt  spotbird   Dec-03-04 07:58 PM   #318 
  - see? I can be helpful (link to poll)  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 07:59 PM   #319 
     - Yep your helpful, thanks! nt  spotbird   Dec-03-04 08:01 PM   #320 
  - I demand a recount!  symbolman   Dec-03-04 09:36 PM   #392 
     - Check the dumpster.  americanstranger   Dec-03-04 09:47 PM   #399 
     - you ask too much... I will NOT part with my M&M's! n/t  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 09:53 PM   #405 
  - I think this is bad, mainly because there is no replacement  DanSpillane   Dec-03-04 08:07 PM   #323 
  - She Didn't Work For Us  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 08:12 PM   #327 
  - The first rule of management  Walt Starr   Dec-03-04 08:32 PM   #341 
  - She made herself the center of the movement on purpose...  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 08:44 PM   #350 
     - Well..."Maddy" you seem to feel about Bev the way I feel about "Tweety."  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 09:21 PM   #378 
        - I don't have blind hatred of Bev, if that is what you are insinuating.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 09:34 PM   #390 
           - That is because...  ZombyWoof   Dec-05-04 02:01 AM   #738 
  - Andy?  wiggs   Dec-03-04 08:14 PM   #328 
  - I know it's totally unbelievable but, maybe, just maybe, Bev...  Junkdrawer   Dec-03-04 08:20 PM   #332 
  - What Are You Talking About??? Whales Eat PLANKTON!! n/t  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 08:22 PM   #333 
  - Not all whales eat plankton...  Junkdrawer   Dec-03-04 09:24 PM   #381 
     - True. Pearl, Mr Krabs daughter, doesn't. But how many whales  robbedvoter   Dec-03-04 09:34 PM   #391 
        - Hmmm...Pearl "eating" Plankton...  Junkdrawer   Dec-03-04 09:42 PM   #397 
        - Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 10:40 PM   #420 
  - You are correct  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 10:13 PM   #414 
  - It's a shame it had to come to this.  Lone_Star_Dem   Dec-03-04 08:25 PM   #337 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-03-04 08:34 PM   #343 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-03-04 08:36 PM   #345 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-03-04 08:47 PM   #352 
  - Most folks I've seen here are "name changers." ???? and then there's  KoKo01   Dec-03-04 09:02 PM   #368 
     - I didn't change my name because of Bev Harris  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 09:23 PM   #379 
     - Newbie here, no name change  IndyPriest   Dec-03-04 09:32 PM   #387 
     - Name changing ended on November 22  Walt Starr   Dec-04-04 10:35 AM   #546 
  - Odd is most certainly the word  Malikshah   Dec-03-04 08:52 PM   #357 
  - Me, neither...  T Town Jake   Dec-03-04 09:00 PM   #366 
  - will Bev sue anyone who says "BBV"?  garybeck   Dec-03-04 08:37 PM   #347 
  - I Certainly Hope Not...  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 08:40 PM   #348 
  - That like saying Coke is going to sue us for saying the work Coca-Cola  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 08:54 PM   #360 
     - I know LOL  IAMREALITY   Dec-03-04 08:57 PM   #363 
  - How about "alleged" BBV?  robbedvoter   Dec-03-04 08:57 PM   #364 
  - She can't, because DUers came up with the term "black box voting"  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 09:24 PM   #382 
  - Correction: The Duer named David Allen (Plan9_Pub) came up with it  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 10:43 PM   #422 
  - No, she can't.  plan9_pub   Dec-03-04 10:27 PM   #418 
  - Fair enough. n/t  wrate   Dec-03-04 09:05 PM   #370 
  - It was about time. Sorry it ended this way.  valis   Dec-03-04 09:33 PM   #389 
  - I'm still up for peace between all DU members  AnIndependentTexan   Dec-03-04 10:21 PM   #415 
  - hehe -- there's dysfunctions in all families ;) n/t  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 10:25 PM   #417 
  - I am really shocked at this thread....  higher class   Dec-03-04 10:25 PM   #416 
  - OMFG -- KO AND DU. DECIDE TO DROP BEV HARRIS?!?!?!  Imagevision   Dec-03-04 11:29 PM   #433 
  - perplexing...  AmyCrat   Dec-03-04 11:39 PM   #436 
  - And another new poster weighs in with expert commentary...  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 12:24 AM   #451 
  - while 8 month old T_T_J chimes in with  dweller   Dec-04-04 01:14 AM   #481 
     - Well, to be perfectly honest...  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 01:39 AM   #489 
  - YOU'RE SO RIGHT. WHILE EVERYONE DISSES BEV, ROVE IS HAVING A BIG LAUGH  TruthIsAll   Dec-04-04 07:32 AM   #529 
     - Nah, Rove would be quaking now because we've ditched the baggage  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 12:42 PM   #582 
     - "Maybe I'm naive"....  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 02:10 PM   #612 
  - Shocked! I'm shocked I tell you!...  T Town Jake   Dec-03-04 11:29 PM   #434 
  - the correct reply  dweller   Dec-04-04 12:23 AM   #449 
     - higher class comes from my original statement tag at DU...  higher class   Dec-04-04 10:47 AM   #549 
  - Damn that was a well written notice!  Bethany Rockafella   Dec-03-04 11:14 PM   #430 
  - Welcome to DU.  Maddy McCall   Dec-03-04 11:21 PM   #432 
  - This is a very bad mistake. I hope you reconsider. I rely on DU  ConsAreLiars   Dec-03-04 11:39 PM   #435 
  - Nice response-- and so very very needed.  Malikshah   Dec-03-04 11:55 PM   #438 
  - ask yourself why  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 12:02 AM   #441 
     - Actually-- with the lack of control here  Malikshah   Dec-04-04 12:07 AM   #442 
        - Lack of control?  americanstranger   Dec-04-04 12:38 AM   #460 
        - If she's objective, she'll read the links I posted for her below.  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 12:53 AM   #470 
        - Here's how long this has been brewing.  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 12:51 AM   #469 
           - Yup same old mob mentality  Malikshah   Dec-04-04 09:17 AM   #535 
  - Get your Bev Harris updates here -  americanstranger   Dec-03-04 11:58 PM   #439 
  - seems there is a willy nilly policy related to payment for records.  rodeodance   Dec-04-04 12:37 AM   #459 
  - I have great respect and admiration for many here on DU.  ConsAreLiars   Dec-04-04 01:00 AM   #473 
  - A moment of your time, if I may  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 01:31 AM   #486 
     - Deleted - wrong spot  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 01:45 AM   #490 
     - David. I accept that you acted in good faith.  ConsAreLiars   Dec-04-04 02:41 AM   #508 
        - I respected her work as well  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 10:49 AM   #550 
           - David, I am so desperately sorry....  ohio_liberal   Dec-04-04 11:05 AM   #553 
  - I sent BBV $100 that I couldn't afford.  buddysmellgood   Dec-04-04 12:10 AM   #443 
  - I read her posts at here site and I don't think she gets it.  smartvoter   Dec-04-04 12:18 AM   #446 
  - I read this over there and for the first time got downright mad  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 12:20 AM   #447 
     - Her posts are bizarre. She just doesn't see it.  smartvoter   Dec-04-04 12:25 AM   #452 
     - volken mind-meld again SV :P  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 12:27 AM   #453 
     - and I supposed it's a conspiracy now since the other VC thread was closed  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 12:28 AM   #454 
        - It didn't take her long to say we're part of the fraud problem, or  smartvoter   Dec-04-04 12:33 AM   #457 
        - IMO, this is an example  Eloriel   Dec-04-04 11:12 AM   #554 
     - Instead of trying to mend fences she goes to war - reminds me of the movie  Jersey Devil   Dec-04-04 12:30 AM   #456 
        - Yeah. Wonder how many people out here that gave her $$$ are going to blow  smartvoter   Dec-04-04 12:38 AM   #461 
           - ya know I didn't even THINK of that!!!  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 12:44 AM   #465 
              - Well, the work is important.  smartvoter   Dec-04-04 01:06 AM   #476 
     - I read it... and laughed  salin   Dec-04-04 12:26 PM   #572 
  - I'm broken-hearted  Rev. Day-Bu   Dec-04-04 12:24 AM   #450 
  - Yeah That's A Shame! What's For Breakfast?  Vinnie From Indy   Dec-04-04 12:42 AM   #464 
  - In the sense that she transformed herself  salin   Dec-04-04 12:37 PM   #577 
  - You are so deep in the bullshit that you can't see clearly.  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 12:47 AM   #467 
  - LOL! Maddy, don't beat around the bush, tell us how you really feel.  smartvoter   Dec-04-04 12:50 AM   #468 
  - It's the "Bev is bigger than DU" posts that are the most outrageous.  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 12:56 AM   #472 
  - It's a deep, wide river  Rev. Day-Bu   Dec-04-04 02:24 AM   #507 
  - not taking sides, just sayin':  Chili   Dec-04-04 04:47 AM   #520 
  - "...I'm afraid you'll see even less of me after this" Well, boo-hoo...  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 01:18 AM   #482 
     - Have fun!  Rev. Day-Bu   Dec-04-04 02:18 AM   #506 
  - In these darkest of days that i've ever lived  dweller   Dec-04-04 12:42 AM   #463 
  - It's human nature to not want to admit  symbolman   Dec-04-04 12:46 AM   #466 
  - You are right. Sadly.  smartvoter   Dec-04-04 12:54 AM   #471 
  - Who wants some punch?  Forkboy   Dec-04-04 01:06 AM   #475 
  - hit me  dweller   Dec-04-04 01:20 AM   #484 
  - Perhaps some counseling would help her.  ClintCooper2003   Dec-04-04 01:35 AM   #487 
  - She threatened to sue DU. DU rightfully canned her.  Proud2BAmurkin   Dec-04-04 01:38 AM   #488 
  - BEV CLAIMS GEORGE BUSH ON HER SIDE!!!!  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 01:54 AM   #492 
  - David... I'm getting ready for bed and this may give me nightmares (g)  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 01:57 AM   #493 
  - Most of the folks over there  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 02:06 AM   #500 
     - Archive.org will host her video  high density   Dec-04-04 03:58 AM   #517 
  - So now she claims McCokespoon is a supporter of counting votes? BWAAAA  Proud2BAmurkin   Dec-04-04 01:57 AM   #494 
  - Delusional, isn't it.  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 02:00 AM   #497 
  - And she admonished her minions from using the word "freeper" since...  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 01:58 AM   #495 
  - Ummm  Ronbrynaert   Dec-04-04 02:05 AM   #499 
  - I don't no which is harder to buy  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 02:09 AM   #501 
  - That's IT! That's what I needed so I can go to bed  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 02:10 AM   #502 
  - Oh, Jeesuz-unbelievable-Keerist....  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 02:59 AM   #511 
  - This Thing is Huge---and BBV is too small--  marions ghost   Dec-04-04 04:21 PM   #638 
  - he ordered her book so he could know how to steal the election  Faye   Dec-04-04 02:13 AM   #504 
  - And the are the people  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 02:18 AM   #505 
  - I read the stuff over there and it was chilling.She really appears to  saracat   Dec-04-04 02:58 AM   #510 
  - tombstoned (nt)  Jersey Devil   Dec-04-04 03:09 AM   #512 
  - I meant on her site!  saracat   Dec-04-04 04:08 AM   #519 
  - All of the above. No allegiance. She was selling a newsletter  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 09:40 AM   #541 
  - Amazing, isn't it?...  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 03:33 AM   #514 
  - Is this for real???  propagandafreegal   Dec-04-04 08:09 AM   #533 
  - Link:  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 09:28 AM   #536 
  - Well, here's her edited version of what happened here  Walt Starr   Dec-04-04 09:37 AM   #537 
  - I see  temperancedissent   Dec-04-04 10:03 AM   #542 
  - uh, so the dems stole it, that's why DU banned her! Playing her new  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 10:24 AM   #544 
  - Well, fuck me. I knew it.  F.Gordon   Dec-04-04 10:58 AM   #552 
  - I remember that  symbolman   Dec-04-04 04:21 PM   #637 
  - So, what part isn't true?  thephaseshift   Dec-04-04 12:40 PM   #580 
     - perhaps because it suggests  salin   Dec-04-04 01:01 PM   #587 
     - The DU moderators had absolutely nothign to do with her banning  Walt Starr   Dec-04-04 03:25 PM   #628 
  - Good God Amighty! David, that's incredible! Did she get bought off by  KoKo01   Dec-04-04 12:49 PM   #585 
     - If I was overly aggressive toward you...  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 01:49 PM   #601 
     - No problem. we are all upset by this.... Sometimes I'm not very clear...  KoKo01   Dec-04-04 01:56 PM   #605 
     - I posted it as soon as I saw it  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 05:10 PM   #650 
  - Damn that outta learn me from now on  temperancedissent   Dec-04-04 01:59 AM   #496 
  - Thank you, DU!  boi1946   Dec-04-04 03:29 AM   #513 
  - After Reading Post from people so blinded by BEV  GoPsUx   Dec-04-04 06:45 AM   #527 
     - Ha ha ha ha!  LoZoccolo   Dec-04-04 09:39 AM   #538 
  - I find it a bit distressing  LanternWaste   Dec-04-04 07:46 AM   #530 
  - LOL-how 'bout the night she "banned herself" from DU?  fishnfla   Dec-04-04 08:42 AM   #534 
  - That was the day she went off on me  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 10:35 AM   #547 
     - Well, you knew this would prompt me to ask, yet again  RedEagle   Dec-04-04 01:50 PM   #602 
     - Why do you want to know?  RememberTheCoup   Dec-04-04 02:23 PM   #614 
     - Because David has never answered the question  RedEagle   Dec-04-04 02:36 PM   #618 
     - But why did you ask in the first place?  RememberTheCoup   Dec-04-04 02:45 PM   #621 
     - There are two sides to every story  RedEagle   Dec-04-04 04:41 PM   #640 
     - Actually there are five or six sides  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 12:44 AM   #723 
     - He asking this question to set me up for  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 12:54 AM   #726 
     - David did answer the question  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 12:45 AM   #724 
     - Because, even though Bev is gone, she will remain...  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 03:11 PM   #624 
        - Sycophats and Bev Bots.....  RedEagle   Dec-04-04 04:55 PM   #643 
     - Ahhhh, Jeeze....  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 03:30 PM   #629 
     - I have addressed this issue in the past, and answered the question  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 12:28 AM   #721 
     - I remember. She must have known she was in the wrong, or felt guilty  fishnfla   Dec-04-04 03:45 PM   #632 
  - Admins made the only sane decision  Generic Other   Dec-04-04 10:11 AM   #543 
  - I've re-read most of the posts here and feel as bad as I did when I read  higher class   Dec-04-04 11:12 AM   #555 
  - "I thought the enemy was someone else"  F.Gordon   Dec-04-04 11:39 AM   #565 
     - Just how do politicians who have stolen from us benefit from Bev H's  higher class   Dec-04-04 01:44 PM   #598 
        - unless all who criticize  salin   Dec-04-04 02:03 PM   #608 
        - Don't ya know? I'm just a poser  F.Gordon   Dec-04-04 02:37 PM   #620 
  - Bev backpedals from the claim, then repeats it  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 11:17 AM   #556 
  - Who has she "hassled"? I'm skeptical.  thephaseshift   Dec-04-04 11:21 AM   #557 
  - Ha ha ha ha.  LoZoccolo   Dec-04-04 11:24 AM   #560 
  - Skeptical is good. Stay this way then read what Walt Starr and David  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 11:28 AM   #562 
  - Not convinced yet  thephaseshift   Dec-04-04 12:15 PM   #569 
     - Sorry, but getting to the truth requires hard work  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 12:29 PM   #573 
     - All right, I give up  thephaseshift   Dec-04-04 12:35 PM   #575 
        - So, that  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 12:42 PM   #581 
     - Oh, that's a load...  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 12:34 PM   #574 
  - Then you need to start reading...  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 12:22 PM   #571 
  - READ THE THREADS  illuminaughty   Dec-05-04 06:16 AM   #756 
  - Divide and Conquer  Nightjock   Dec-04-04 11:23 AM   #559 
  - I agree with you.  LoZoccolo   Dec-04-04 11:25 AM   #561 
  - This statement is anti-thetical to DU and Dems  higher class   Dec-04-04 01:01 PM   #588 
     - I tried, I begged, I pleaded...  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 05:54 PM   #660 
        - I am just as sympathetic to your position as I am to hers because I  higher class   Dec-04-04 07:52 PM   #691 
        - Ohhhh, David...  hlthe2b   Dec-04-04 10:03 PM   #708 
  - No--we're weeding out the less credible among us and I'm sorry  Shopaholic   Dec-04-04 11:30 AM   #563 
  - But wouldn't the fascists who stole the election know people would be  nothingshocksmeanymore   Dec-04-04 11:34 AM   #564 
  - I am not on the same side with anyone who thinks Dems stole it, W  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 11:42 AM   #566 
  - Exactly!  waldnorm   Dec-04-04 01:03 PM   #589 
     - Thanks Waldnorm for your words of wisdom  marions ghost   Dec-04-04 06:12 PM   #668 
  - Now Skinner is part of the conspiracy  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 12:39 PM   #579 
  - Amazing projection of all her qualities, deeds....SOP.  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 12:49 PM   #584 
  - After reading the whole thread... I hate to admit  salin   Dec-04-04 12:58 PM   #586 
  - please focus  xiamiam   Dec-04-04 01:21 PM   #591 
  - Issues over personalities - what Elad, many of us were saying without  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 01:27 PM   #592 
  - DU has been (is) important in my life, as well  salin   Dec-04-04 01:28 PM   #593 
     - Her cause? I have had enough of this! She hardly pioneered the cause  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 01:40 PM   #596 
        - point taken - and good info - however I used the term  salin   Dec-04-04 01:47 PM   #600 
  - More than a shame Earl,  beets   Dec-04-04 01:29 PM   #594 
  - scan the thread for posts  salin   Dec-04-04 01:39 PM   #595 
  - 1st time on this thread, but I would give her  beets   Dec-04-04 02:18 PM   #613 
     - Uh-huh...do you really think you're fooling anybody? (n/t)  T Town Jake   Dec-04-04 04:00 PM   #635 
     - You Blew My Cover...I'm Bev!  beets   Dec-04-04 05:06 PM   #648 
     - Give her what she wants?  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 06:10 PM   #666 
        - Kindly enlighten, what you see as best possible scenario  beets   Dec-04-04 06:55 PM   #677 
           - It will be very hard  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 12:05 AM   #719 
              - Sorry I can't quite buy all you're saying re the machines, which have been  beets   Dec-05-04 12:47 AM   #725 
                 - There is a big difference  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 01:03 AM   #727 
  - See # 492, 537. We'll porsue it with those who actually want it!  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 01:43 PM   #597 
  - Jesus Fucking Christ !!!  WillyT   Dec-04-04 01:45 PM   #599 
  - disagree with you on this  salin   Dec-04-04 01:52 PM   #603 
  - I Gotta Admit...  WillyT   Dec-04-04 02:03 PM   #607 
     - personally  salin   Dec-04-04 02:09 PM   #610 
  - OMG! LOL! Bev = Thomas Paine?  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 01:53 PM   #604 
  - part McCarthy, part Nixon  salin   Dec-04-04 02:00 PM   #606 
  - LOL !!! - No... I'm Not Equating Bev With Thomas Paine...  WillyT   Dec-04-04 02:09 PM   #611 
  - Hey Willy T...you and I have no axes, but Roxanne was getting BBV  nothingshocksmeanymore   Dec-04-04 02:30 PM   #615 
  - Untrue statements abound about facts  RedEagle   Dec-04-04 02:32 PM   #617 
  - Thank you for your thoughtful post  indigoblue   Dec-04-04 03:15 PM   #625 
  - Another Rovian wedge for Karl. Now, the DU.  lthuedk   Dec-04-04 06:58 PM   #678 
  - #492, #537 #584: Bev posts on love for W, freepers and sliming Skiner  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 03:52 PM   #634 
  - Bev's story of Bush's wanting the book is old  RedEagle   Dec-04-04 05:26 PM   #653 
     - REDEAGLE - youre saying very important and very powerful things here  faithnotgreed   Dec-04-04 09:04 PM   #698 
     - So it';s Beverly uber ales - just like for the freepers W can eat babies  robbedvoter   Dec-05-04 12:36 AM   #722 
  - You've done a good job here in pointing out the one-sided nature  Malikshah   Dec-04-04 04:57 PM   #644 
  - RedEagle=BBV.org Board of Directors Member  Boredtodeath   Dec-04-04 10:03 PM   #707 
  - Dear NotREDFacedEagle:  symbolman   Dec-05-04 08:09 AM   #759 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-04-04 02:37 PM   #619 
  - I;ve gotta disagree, without Bev we'd probably be light years ahead  Walt Starr   Dec-04-04 03:45 PM   #633 
  - wow I had no idea all this was going on  Kellis   Dec-04-04 02:32 PM   #616 
  - As a Relative Newcomer to this issue  BlueDog2u   Dec-04-04 02:53 PM   #622 
  - W bought the book ? Right. Want a deal on some swampland?  smartvoter   Dec-04-04 02:58 PM   #623 
  - Man, she can't even get the basics of the Olbermann thing right.  crispini   Dec-04-04 03:19 PM   #627 
  - Big difference....not to her  JohnnyCougar   Dec-04-04 04:31 PM   #639 
     - Hey, there's my graphic!  americanstranger   Dec-04-04 05:36 PM   #656 
        - Awesome!! My brother showed me it in an e-mail.  JohnnyCougar   Dec-04-04 05:52 PM   #659 
           - Not at all!  americanstranger   Dec-04-04 06:03 PM   #665 
  - Imagine George Bush breathing a big sigh of relief.....  AntiFascist   Dec-04-04 04:55 PM   #642 
  - No He Ain't  IAMREALITY   Dec-04-04 04:59 PM   #645 
  - Man, that is the best post ever.  Gregorian   Dec-04-04 05:06 PM   #647 
  - he,he,he.!!!!!  AntiFascist   Dec-04-04 05:13 PM   #652 
  - That post is way to good ...  SomthingsGotaGive   Dec-05-04 01:12 AM   #730 
  - Would that be an El Presidente cigar?  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 06:10 PM   #667 
  - from Susan Clarke: letter to Olbermann re Bev  nmoliver   Dec-04-04 05:07 PM   #649 
  - That letter is a bit inaccurate.  americanstranger   Dec-04-04 05:48 PM   #658 
  - Additionally, if BH *is* a party to ANY suit, she can't serve anything  Melinda   Dec-04-04 05:57 PM   #661 
  - Bev's schedule wouldn't be so "grueling" if she'd shared responsibilities  Maddy McCall   Dec-04-04 09:15 PM   #702 
  - This is a completely bogus letter.  saracat   Dec-04-04 06:20 PM   #669 
  - The author asserts s/he is a "pro se litigator" ... a non-lawyer  Melinda   Dec-04-04 06:30 PM   #671 
  - Yeah . I caught that, but ya gotta admit ,the legalese is hilarious!  saracat   Dec-04-04 07:29 PM   #680 
  - Exposeuse=former poseur (noun, feminine)  robbedvoter   Dec-04-04 06:30 PM   #672 
  - Heeheehee  intelle   Dec-04-04 06:33 PM   #673 
  - If you would be so kind  plan9_pub   Dec-04-04 06:46 PM   #676 
     - Susan Clarke's address  nmoliver   Dec-05-04 06:44 AM   #757 
  - My condolences to those who have been used and abused by Bev Harris...  RememberTheCoup   Dec-04-04 05:34 PM   #655 
  - I agree 100%  Vinnie From Indy   Dec-04-04 06:02 PM   #663 
  - A post you won't see on BBV today  Fly by night   Dec-04-04 06:42 PM   #674 
  - I know about New Hampshire too. Any others?  Fly by night   Dec-04-04 06:45 PM   #675 
  - Apparently they have decided to spread as much dirt about DU as they can  saracat   Dec-04-04 07:33 PM   #681 
  - Interesting. Now exactly who is being "back biting" and "unproductive"...  AmyCrat   Dec-04-04 07:39 PM   #685 
  - Sure, NOW DU is 'unproductive...'  americanstranger   Dec-04-04 09:17 PM   #705 
     - afs was "Brad Majors"  GrapesOfWrath   Dec-04-04 09:26 PM   #706 
        - IIRC, "Brad Majors"  Pastiche423   Dec-05-04 01:06 AM   #729 
           - I do remember that!  GrapesOfWrath   Dec-05-04 08:01 AM   #758 
  - Ugggh. i thought Bush* stealing the election was the ultimate in pain...  hlthe2b   Dec-04-04 09:11 PM   #701 
  - I don't know who's right or wrong so I'll give everybody reasonable doubt.  kerry-is-my-prez   Dec-04-04 07:42 PM   #688 
  - Reinstating Bev Harris  Jeff Fisher   Dec-05-04 01:05 AM   #728 
  - Jeff, have you READ any of the evidence  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 01:18 AM   #731 
  - Mr. Fisher, I'm William Jefferson Clinton.  LoZoccolo   Dec-05-04 01:21 AM   #732 
  - That was pretty good.  americanstranger   Dec-05-04 01:28 AM   #733 
  - Mr. Fisher,  JohnnyCougar   Dec-05-04 02:12 AM   #741 
  - Welcome, Mr. Fisher  hlthe2b   Dec-05-04 09:28 AM   #772 
  - Bev salary revealed  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 01:32 AM   #734 
  - David... I side with you on a lot of these issues, but  AmyCrat   Dec-05-04 01:38 AM   #735 
     - Let me explain why that sticks in my craw  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 01:57 AM   #737 
        - I do understand...  AmyCrat   Dec-05-04 02:09 AM   #740 
        - I don't believe  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 02:34 AM   #748 
        - As someone who lives in Seattle,  Whirled Peas   Dec-05-04 02:13 AM   #742 
        - that's what it's like in NY  AmyCrat   Dec-05-04 02:23 AM   #745 
           - It seems that both places are quite expensive. The bottom line, I think,  Whirled Peas   Dec-05-04 02:32 AM   #747 
              - I can think of  plan9_pub   Dec-05-04 02:38 AM   #749 
                 - Look, the previous poster asked for someone from Seattle...  Whirled Peas   Dec-05-04 02:44 AM   #750 
        - All Truth Known is History btruth twisted becomes myth  phantomvotes   Dec-05-04 02:17 AM   #743 
  - Not good news for us or the cause  Chomskyite   Dec-05-04 02:52 AM   #751 
  - Oh dear.  cat_girl25   Dec-05-04 03:06 AM   #753 
  - I don't think you've even read the thread.  JohnnyCougar   Dec-05-04 03:12 AM   #754 
  - Before this thread gets locked.....  cat_girl25   Dec-05-04 03:03 AM   #752 
  - Posted wrong spot  Junkdrawer   Dec-05-04 08:20 AM   #761 
  - WONDER ABOUT THE MOTIVES OF SOME PROLIFIC POSTERS HERE?  tommcintyre   Dec-05-04 08:14 AM   #760 
  - Do you realize what you are admitting to?  republicansareevil   Dec-05-04 09:16 AM   #767 
     - Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this whole thread "stalking" Bev?  Junkdrawer   Dec-05-04 09:18 AM   #768 
        - Um, no. Do you know what "stalking" is?  republicansareevil   Dec-05-04 09:29 AM   #773 
  - So, was pillorying Bev the point of this thread?  Junkdrawer   Dec-05-04 08:28 AM   #762 
     - I don't think that was the intention of the admins, I think they were used  tommcintyre   Dec-05-04 08:39 AM   #763 
     - I can't think of anyone else banned from here with a trashy 700+ post...  Junkdrawer   Dec-05-04 08:44 AM   #764 
        - No.. but the admins couldn't control that.. I was orchestrated after  tommcintyre   Dec-05-04 08:53 AM   #765 
           - That's true. But the admins had many tools at their disposal...  Junkdrawer   Dec-05-04 09:00 AM   #766 
              - most banned posters aren't also public figures  republicansareevil   Dec-05-04 09:21 AM   #769 
              - What I can say with reasonable certainty is:  tommcintyre   Dec-05-04 09:21 AM   #770 
              - Motive for keeping it open? And if we had locked it, then what?  Skinner   Dec-05-04 09:30 AM   #774 
     - So you condone the behavior of Bev Harris?  Boredtodeath   Dec-05-04 09:27 AM   #771 
 
texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. 12/03/04 is there any new info about the Bev BBV issue ?
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:40 PM by texpatriot2004
What's new with BH and KO today 12/03/04? Are they still in a pissing contest? Oops, I asked the question and then read the post above. I think DU did the right thing. I think they were very patient and ultimately had no choice. I think she did it to herself.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. No, that ended the same way
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:23 PM by plan9_pub
KO told her she was not welcome on his show. Bev dropped her threats on her site and tried to pretend none of it happened.

I expect we will see a lot more proxies for Bev in the future.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

edit: typo
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Oh, that's what the post above was referring to...that she
replied as if nothing happened. Gee, that's too bad.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
233. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #233
236. Please. Try reading the rest of the thread
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 05:26 PM by crispini
before you comment.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #233
252. You really should get all the facts
before posting.

I am a apalled that Markos and the DU moderators sit in front of their computers, within reach of their coffie, within easy driving distance (at least) of their beds, and trash Bev, who is OUT THERE, ON A LIMB, RISKING the WRATH of the IRS to PUBLISH here and at KOS.

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as Kos is concerned, but you seem woefully misinformed about Bev's contribution to this effort.

MANY people risked their financial health and their liberty pursuing this cause. Are you aware of this? Can you name any other them?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #252
485. That's exactly my problem with what's happened here.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 01:29 AM by aquart
Bev is the name out front.

Are there other people working on this? Quietly and with deep devotion to this cause? Yes.

But Bev is the name out front.

I've done a quick scan here. You're all right. Okay?

But the tactless showman, the Carrie Nation with the hatchet, is the name that goes in the history books. Were others working on prohibition? Yeah. But Carrie had the hatchet. DAMNED offensive, that hatchet. Woman had no tact and didn't know her place.

The name out front MUST take the extreme position. Why? Because no one reasons with the reasonable. Why not? They're so reasonable. Because you don't have to. Because a reasonable person can be talked out of anything. Look at Gore in 2000. Look at Bush. Bush was unreasonable and took office. Gore was reasonable and didn't.

The name out front must set the boundary and it needs to be far out. THEN the hard-working anonymous heroes step in and reason with the panicked other side. God, have NONE of you ever gone on strike?

The name out front HAS to be seen. HAS to upset people. HAS to cause uproar and ranting. Frothing at the mouth ranting. ONLY then will the other side begin to negotiate.

Hundreds, maybe thousands, won't get credit for the work they've done, but Bev and her irritating descent on LePore's undeserved party WILL be noted. It HAS been noted.

The FIRST obstruction to any change is the injunction to behave nicely. Don't rock the boat. Be polite. Don't upset people. Bev isn't behaving nicely.

From where I sit, that means she's doing her job.

The sad thing is that it's OUR mouths that are frothing, WE who are demanding she behave nicely. We're acting like the DLC. Like the RNC.

If we want this job done, we NEED her and her name out there, pissing people off. Bev is the target. Bev is, obviously, taking the hits.

She isn't harming the cause. The ones screaming "PLAY NICE!" are the ones who don't recognize that we NEED someone out there on the far edge.

I understand completely the Mods' position. The attack here the past few days was stunning and, I thought, well-orchestrated. It consumed the place. Bev is now out of DU.

My school history book had a cartoonist's illustration of wild-eyed Carrie Nation and her hatchet. I still remember it.






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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #485
540. I must disagree with part of your statement.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 09:42 AM by bearfartinthewoods
The person out front should be the level headed one who doesn't engage in the kind of stunts that garner the type of publicity as has been mentioned. The front person is the reasoned voice that puts out the facts, calmly and with clarity. The need is for credibility. The firebrands should not be in the lead.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #540
626. The firebrands carry the torch.
They light the way.

Samuel Adams, for instance. Marat.

The firebrands blaze the trail. They can't do that from the rear.

But, historically, their fate is almost always to be discarded and maligned by the movements they made possible.

Oh, lookee.
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RememberTheCoup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #626
630. most "firebrands" direct their fire at the opposition...
...not at those who are working for the same cause.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #630
651. And you can point to specific examples in history?
You know for a fact that other trailblazers were too pure for petty infighting? <Give me a minute. I have to stop laughing.>
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RememberTheCoup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #651
657. just common sense
If you want to argue that the traits of successful trailblazers include a tendency to turn on the very people trying to help them, go right ahead. Perhaps YOU should be the one citing examples. And I would not characterize Bev's actions as mere "infighting" -- she's caused a lot of harm to a lot of people. Since you are not one of her victims, I guess it's easy to trivialize.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #651
692. I'm a professional historian, and I can assure you that many...
leaders of grassroots efforts were not plagued with the types of mental illnesses that Ms. Harris has exhibited.

Firebrands who turn on their supporters assure their movements defeat. And I can name numerous of those.
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Higans Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #692
694. Mr. Historian, do you think the elections will ever be credible?
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 08:28 PM by Higans
i.e. Paper Ballots, independant auditing. or is our voice silenced for ever by the hackers?
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #694
696. I said that I am an historian, not a fortune teller.
My personal belief, as far as the future goes, is that Americans won't tolerate democracy being stolen from them by anyone.

I forsee paper opti-scan ballots, or at least paper receipts for computer voting. I prefer the former.

For the first half of the 19th century, the main argument among Americans was whether or not the founders had tried to steal true democracy from Americans through the implementation of the Constitution. So there is an historical precedent for what is going on now. We still have the constitution, but I doubt that unverifiable computer voting will be around in 20 years.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #694
746. Mr. "Higans," do you think you could be any more...
...obvious as a pinch-hitter for a fraud like Bev Harris?
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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #692
711. Historian or psychiatrist? Mental illness? I really do not know what to
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 11:02 PM by Sperk
beleive anymore....Every post I have ever seen of Bev's (including on her own site) sound extremely reasonable. I'm trying to keep an open mind because you and others have made comments about terrible confrontations with her although I don't know specifically what they were. You and others don't seem to be handling them very professionally either.

For example, I read many, many of your posts and I know HOW you feel about her, I read many a name calling posts but I still don't know what she did that turned you against her. The gist seems to be that she wants to have all the lime light. If so...why not let her...there are bigger issues here. Do you see what I'm saying? We all want the fraud issue brought forward and I think going against her PUBLICLY is very damanging.....the evilduers will use it against us in the end.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #711
744. Blah, blah, blah - bleh - blah, blah...
...yet still more predictable horseshit from the professional Bev Bots... :eyes:
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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #485
710. I agree 100% with you....we've been screaming for 4 years for the
Dems to STOP being so passive....so NICE!!!! I think Bev is doing a great job and the fact that Olberman would cut her off without ever talking directly to her, tells me the fix was in.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #485
739. Carrie Nation was a bug-eyed puritan fanatic...
...who helped spawn the silliest amendment to our Constitution ever. Prohibition was later, thankfully, repealed, thanks to liberals I steadfastly admire like FDR. If Carrie Nation were alive and out & about today, she'd be Jerry Falwell's biggest fan, and a regular poster over at Free Republic. Odd indeed is your choice of role models...

Despite that, the analogy still doesn't quite fit: Carrie Nation truly believed in the principles that animated her ridiculous crusade; your hero Bev, on the other hand, is little more than a crude charlatan and increasingly transparent con artist. She hurts the cause she presumes to speak for far more than she helps it. At least Ms. Nation had something to show for her efforts - the quixotic and now long-repealed 18th amendment. All Saint Beverly has is a lengthening trail of burned bridges, shattered relationships, and ugly encounters with just about everybody she comes into contact with. And zero credibility, as has been proven over and over and over and over again.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #233
258. "The Baby?" Yes, I would agree that Bev's temperament has been...
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:01 PM by Maddy McCall
quite immature.

But BBV is not Bev's baby. It belongs to all of the activists who began the BBV efforts, who contributed in vast ways to the BBV book, who funded her dubious trips around the U.S.

Just because "the baby" is gone does not mean that the bathwater has been drained. Perhaps MORE will get accomplished, now that the most divisive figure ever at DU is out of the way. The true activists in this movement will continue their efforts, of that I have no doubt.

Beware the charlatans.

Links from one of the many Bev controversies at DU:

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And there are links within links. Read them all and come back to discuss this. I'll be waiting.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #258
437. The lawsuit threats did it for me. :(
No one should threaten to sue as a first recourse over something so trivial. It was freaking me out because I want to help with the possible election fraud issue, yet I felt uneasy about Ms. Harris.

Now that she's been banned, I feel better. I may be able to get myself in gear to help with this again.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #233
268. Go to the archives...
Go to the DU archives, do the research, take in all the information, and then form your opinion before you attack the founders and moderators or other DU members. Nothing is worse than the unfounded, ill-formed, and hot-headed opinion. You'd do yourself great service by reviewing the roots of this thread. You'd do us all a great service by being fair and balanced in your replies to what is a very reasonable approach to a very volatile situation.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
67. "focus on discussing the verified voting issue" Amen! Principles over per
sonalities!
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #67
91. Hey, I have heard that saying before elsewhere, not here.
Look, I apologize if I offended you. I thought this thread was a continuation of the other. I made a mistake. I was just looking to find out what happened regarding this issue.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
161. I agree...
Bev has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that voting systems, including the extremely important Diebold central tabulators, can be easily hacked. Anyone who has seen the recent movie posted on the internet featuring her (Votergate the Movie) can see a demo of how this is done. (Basically it involves opening a GEMs database file into MS Access -- notice the MS, as in MSNBC?)

Anyway, I feel that Bev has pretty much accomplished the main part of her task, now it is up to others to continue the work of investigating the recent election to see how such corruption was put into action and how far it went in fixing the election results.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
631. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RememberTheCoup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #631
646. You obviously haven't read the background links.
You have it backwards. Bev is the one who has been doing the attacking -- attacking people who are "helping our side". But I suggest you read the background links in this thread first.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #646
683. From what I saw this week, it looked as if she was under major attack
The trouble is that her real name was used in these attacks. If you post something, using a real person's real name, you better make sure that it is not false and malicious.

I can understand why she was concerned - just based on the seeming groundless attacks I've seen against her. Most people would be outraged if a group they were trying to help allowed people to present false attacks against them. I think any other Democratic leader in her position would have reacted in the same way.

A lot of people may not know the good she has done. If this election is overturned, it will be 90% or more her doing.

No voters registration information is required for DU. Groups like Democrats.com work to make sure that their members are not Republicans. Maybe the DU might want to require more information when it signs up new members. It's odd that after all the information about all the DU postings of voter fraud made the news, we had an increase in members and attacks on Democrats and those trying to overturn the election. Maybe there's a connection.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #683
684. You've Got To Be Kidding
"If this election is overturned, it will be 90% or more her doing"

That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this almost 700 post thread yet...
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #684
686. Watch her interview with Dean or "Invisible Ballots" or check on her
post-election work and the freedom of information requests she filed. This woman is working her tail off while the DNC is sitting around and pretending Bush won.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #686
689. I'll give her 2% Credit, Nothing More. 90% is Mass Delusional
And that 2% is the best estimate figure from REALITY, a true legally document IQ certified Genius, rather then merely a moniker.

:)
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Constitution Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #689
697. And what are you doing to prove Bush cheated?
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #697
699. Everything In My Power
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 09:13 PM by IAMREALITY
(but don't worry, I won't ask you for money to help and will continue to provide any evidence for FREE without DELAY as soon as I come across it, and won't threaten you with a lawsuit if you say something I don't like. You have my word)
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #631
654. Sorry, I'm a personal responsibility type of perrson
Bev is the root cause of Bev's problems.

Blaming it on Republicans is as bad as Republicans blaming everything bad on homosexuals.
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msgadget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wow. (eom)
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. My exact thoughts too.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Earl, Incredible Post!
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:37 PM by IAMREALITY
I am extremellllllly relieved to find that the top of DU is this objective and that my personal beliefs on the situation were not in fact as far off center of DU culture as I feared.

I have always believed that trouble makers, regardless of righteous convictions, are still counter-productive.


I do firmly support Bev's mission, as I agree we all should, but I do not condone that attacking anybody aas she consistently has done is ever productive to ANY cause.

Thank you for putting some 'REALITY' on this subject.
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
227. Content, but no delivery. Just as I suspected.
I wondered why there was so much activity--dozens of lawsuits, press releases, etc.--but no real traction or breakthroughs in local or federal courts or in the court of public opinion. I donated to BBV because I believe in the project, but I have been wondering if they are managed by the emotion/anger of the cause rather than a sensible, credible plan. Bev's pprobably amazingly overwelmed in this high stakes game and has lost some composure.

Has anyone else wondered why Bev just doesn't seduce many people into "believing" despite having a tremendously compelling cause? I think she is on solid ground in asserting that these voting machines cheat voters and candidates, and I know this is of interest to most Americans, press included. Where are the breakthroughs in garnering support?

It seems that Bev has problems getting along with others. She seems like someone whose anger needs containment so that her credibility and the credibility of the cause can be where it needs to be at such an important time in history. If she comes across looking like a loose cannon, then the merits of her--and OUR--cause get dismissed.

Good speakers have to present well in addition to being organized and having good material. It looks like Bev just has the material, and that BBV needs a new face to their cause.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #227
234. Bar none, this is the BEST POST on this topic ever.
Excellent and insightful. :thumbsup:
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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #234
714. Is there any documenation of this ANGER....I'm not saying I don't believe
you but it's like the WMD....not much evidence to condemn someone on. Even if she's a hothead off the record...that's not the same thing as doing it publicly. Many people are hot heads off the record.

Seems to me her biggest offense is theatening too many lawsuits...maybe it's just her way of saying..."Hey, guys, I'm not kidding!"

I'm not making any judgements about the Mods cutting her..it's their website and their call and we can always check her site out if we want....I guess I'm trying to say....I see A LOT of smoke (mostly name calling) and NO FIRE.
:shrug:
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #227
257. Fair enough.
The attitude expressed here is fairly even handed, so I have no complaints to raise.

The mods gotta do what they gotta do to maintain order...
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #227
359. Not to sound PolyAnna, But...
Uncontroled emotions, especially anger, can be a sign of a nutritional diffeciency. Lots of vitamins and minerals control moods. I used to lose my temper a lot. Now I eat a lot better, and I take some great vitamins. It DOES make a difference.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #227
558. How many people would even know the terms "blackbox voting"
or "verified-voting" if not for Bev Harris?

You're criticizing her because everyone isn't aware of these issues?

Compare the number who know about these issues now to the number who did in 2002.


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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #558
590. I agree with you to some extent and appreciate what she's done.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 01:14 PM by joeunderdog
But for a cause that is so universally important--even to honest Republicans--I am disappointed about missed, crucial opportunities for this historic moment in time. The Oberman thing is a big PR blunder, and dissing DU and its constructive criticism is a mistake that we can't afford right now.

To be fair, Bev has had to be cautious of spies and sabateurs and even her own safety, so her guarded approach to trusting "helpers" is understandable. She clearly needs to hire the right people to help with this. But I worry that she has lost the ability to recognize supports and accept help--necessary elements of taking this to the next level. "Me against the world" isn't getting it done.

She went into this like a child star who stumbled onto a radio hit, and needs a new manager now that she is on the big stage. The Game is now On. Unfortunately, her weakness is in not recognizing and using constructive resources available to her.

And we are losing in the most important court...the court of public opinion.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #590
641. Republicans aren't worried because they own the voting machine companies.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 04:45 PM by Eric J in MN
That isn't Bev's fault.

Sequioa is for sale. A Democrat should buy it. Then Republicans would oppose blackbox voting.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #590
662. No spies
To be fair, Bev has had to be cautious of spies and sabateurs and even her own safety, so her guarded approach to trusting "helpers" is understandable. She clearly needs to hire the right people to help with this. But I worry that she has lost the ability to recognize supports and accept help--necessary elements of taking this to the next level. "Me against the world" isn't getting it done.

I'm sorry, I just don't by her claims. I have seen no spys, no sabotuers, only Bev's paranoia. The only hacking incident I am aware of was a script-kiddie who took down the .com site last Fall.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #662
695. Good leaders have to trust people to make the movement broad...
and acceptible to the grassroots. IF they don't, the movement will die in infancy.

Bev's two paranoid flaws are paranoia and narcissism. Those are the two most lethal flaws a movement leader can possess, as far as sabotaging a movement.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #558
664. Hmmm....
My knowledge of black box voting emerged as a result of talking to someone who told me about this website about a year ago. I've been lurking since then, but that is where I learned about the nefarious system of black box voting.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
291. The bottom line here is that it should be about voting and not about
personalities. Which I totally agree with in this situation. I'm just sad that this episode will overshadow all that we've brought to light in the last month.
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. Works for me.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:36 PM by Goldmund
But how come I can't find her tombstone?

Edit: Nevermind, I found it...
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Original message
Are you serious?
Tombstoned isn't just a term but an actual moniker given to somebody banned?

How do I view that? (if that is the case and I'm not just missing somethin)
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
31. It's when you click on their profile. n/t
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
45. Here
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. That is just Too Goddam funny!
Thank you both for that. I had no idea getting tombstoned was more than just symbolic!

DU is awesome. I love that graphic!
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
108. DU is so awesome it is vital we protect it's integrity.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:29 PM by SomthingsGotaGive
Thank you for listening everyone this has been a tough time for us all.

Now lets kick some ass.

Great job DU Admin.

I will now drop this subject!
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #108
244. YOU ARE 1,000,000% RIGHT
Protecting the integrity of DU should be our priority.
It is our best forum to discuss issues with eachother- and get the word out.
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regularjoe Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
163. It says "He Disrupted....Poorly". Maybe we need "She Disrupted poorly" n/t
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. It is sad that it has come to this....
:-(
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MadAsHellNewYorker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. my feelings exactly )c: n/t
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Two bridges burned in two days
Quite an achievement.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. 2 - No one bridge burned. n/t
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
144. After you have burned all the bridges....your left on an island
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. Where will she go to publicize her findings now?
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Her website? n/t
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Will MSM take her website seriously?
I hope so!
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. The website...
It will either sink or swim on its own merits, I imagine
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
96. She spent more time at DU than at her own website.
:shrug:
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #96
119. I know
I guess that will be changing soon.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good decision
Lending unquestioning support to an egotistical PR personality is never a good idea.
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meisje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. Some people just do not work well with others
Too bad really, where would she be without DU?
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Earl, we haven't "met" on the boards...
but I just want to commend you for trying to remain objective, and for handling whatever has transpired (obviously a lot of it long before I got here) in a professional way.

Keep up the great work.
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Left Brain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
150. I'd like to add to that.
As a newbie, it really helps to have the background information. Thank you for posting it, AdminEarl.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you very much.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM by Melinda
As one who spent hundreds of hours doing legal research for BBV during the years 2002 and 2003, I too am appalled by the events over the course of the last 18 months.

Many of us feel very used. More important, many of us are hurt and angered that this issue has been reduced to ego.

Thank you for this.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. (sigh of relief)
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. And the axe came down. Looks like it had to be done. Sad situation n/t
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:39 PM by Pepper32
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. "Use DU" was certainly the right term
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. thank you for addressing the issue with us...
I take no sides and respect your decisions.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. Going forward: how can we de-monopolize this issue?
Other people have pointed out that it's unfortunate - and surprising, actually - that this huge issue was pretty much tended to by one organization led by one strong personality and just a handful of staff. How would you all suggest that we proceed - should we try to lobby a more established and accountable group or groups to take on this issue?
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. May not answer your question,
But right now I find the news that the House Judiciary Committee (albeit the Dem branch) sent a 15 page amazing detailed letter to Katherine Blackwell, and are scheduling public hearings on fraud/iregularities, extremely encouraging/exciting. This paired with the rising each day focus on Ohio are now my strongest hopes for all this.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
64. Where is this letter, please? The link provided would not open for me.
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
339. letter from members of Congress to Blackwell
http://www.spidel.net/ohblackwellltr12204.pdf
14 page letter


December 2, 2004

Letter to Kenneth Blackwell
Ohio Secretary of State


BRIEF EXCERPT
Spoiled Ballots

According to post election canvassing, many ballots were cast without any valid selection for president. For example, two precincts in Montgomery County had an undervote rate of over 25% each -- accounting for nearly 6,000 voters who stood in line to vote, but purportedly declined to vote for president. 33 This is in stark contrast to the 2% of undervoting county-wide.34 Disturbingly, predominantly Democratic precincts had 75% more undervotes than those that were predominantly Republican.35 It is inconceivable to us that such a large number of people supposedly did not have a preference for president in such a controversial and highly contested election.

Considering that an estimated 93,000 ballots were spoiled across Ohio,36 we would like to know the following:

11. How many of those spoiled ballots were of the punch card or optical scan format and could therefore be examined in a recount?

12. Of those votes that have a paper trail, how many votes for president were undercounted, or showed no preference for president? How many were overcounted, or selected more than one candidate for president? How many other ballots had an indeteminate preference?

13. Of the total 93,000 spoiled ballots, how many were from predominantly Democratic precincts? How many were from minority-majority precincts?

14. Are you taking steps to ensure that there will be a paper trail for all votes before the 2006 elections so that spoiled ballots can be individually re-examined?

....

If you have any questions about this inquiry, please contact Perry Apelbaum or Ted Kalo of the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff at (202) 225-6504

Signed,
John Conyers
Tammy Baldwin
Jerrold Nadler
Melvin Watt
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beets Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #339
609. Enforce that those crucial questions be answered!
That congressional letter was dated thurday 12-2. There are no outstanding names among those who signed it. Prediction: Mr. Blackwell ignores it because he will address nothing unless his feet are to the fire and a higher court forces him to answer. Result: Waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, Kerry had better get a backbone soon, if not, he may not get anything above local dogcatcher in '08. It's been 12 years since the dems had anything resembling a pleasant surprise.
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
228. Hear, hear! The letters are one of the best things to happen

since the Selection!
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BlueWolff Donating Member (337 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Unfortunate
I have been a supporter and find this unfortunate...I see now that unless Bev changes her ways and shows PROOF ...N O W ...that she is on the up and up..she risks much work by many being dumped into the annals of conspiracy..We ALL know that not to be true..you can be crazy but you have to back it up with PROOF...SHOW THE TAPES NOW BEV...My friends and I have contributed lots of money and I am really upset at her!!!
**********To the DU staff...from now on PLEASE let us know of problems like this so we can make better judgements on WHERE to put our hard earned money...
Thanks
Blue Wolff
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
101. There ARE other groups
I've got links to a number of them at blackboxvoting.com, which since emails have just started to come in, I wish to clarify a few points about:

1) I am not interested in taking up from Bev (never was). I have been pretty badly mangled on the periphery of the issue and have no desire to move to the center.

2) I prefer to keep my site a news site to help guide people to other groups and resources and keep them abreast of the news.

3) I am not interested in raising money and do not want to open that Pandora's Box. I am one person and will just muddle along as I can. If you want to help, I can use some folks to help me keep news and links up to date. At some point I would like to shift the site to a different software package which would allow cooperative posting of news story's like the LBN forum here at DU.

(That said, if some rich and generous soul wants to come invest in my publishing company and bring more humor to the world, let's talk. <G> ;)

4) As to what folks can do, I offer a short term and a long term suggestion:

Short term: Focus on a few locations, not multi-state shotgun attacks. We are too few, our money too scant for such an attack to work. Ohio and Florida seem to have problems, but Ohio now has the House Judiciary Committee asking questions and seems to me the logical target. This means GET OUT ON THE STREETS IN OHIO. If a handful of GOP thugs were able to thwart a legitimate recount WHY can't we get people to protest for a legitimate recount? And let's not shoot for a handful, lets shoot for 10,000+. That will bring the cameras running, as it did for the GOP in 2000.

Long term: It's a local issue. Annoy the hell out of your election officials, but take a lesson from Bev's flame out. Be polite, but annoying. Don't run in making wild claims and warning of conspiracies no matter how much you believe them to be true. Stick to the facts:

ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES ARE INSECURE AND INACCURATE AND MUST BE REPLACED WITH A SYSTEM THE VOTERS BELIEVE IN AND RESPECT!!

The reason you harp on this is because we have tons of HARD PROOF to back it up. Write letters, call in to local talk shows, haunt civic groups and churches. This is very much a local issue were people DO make a difference.

4) I am committed to working on this problem in my home state (NC) and will continue with those efforts. My fellow North Carolinians are welcome to make a nuisance of themselves with me.

David Allen
www.plan9.org
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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DemOperative Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #101
208. Just wanted to add a contact
http://www.verifiedvoting.org .

Have LOTS of folks who spun off from Bev when they saw a problem nearly a year ago.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #208
246. Good group
which I feel chagrined for not linking to. I am WAY behind on site maintenance.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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Quick n Low Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #246
458. Don't forget VotersUnite.org
Which is run by two former members of VerifiedVoting and a former admin from BBV.

Some of the best work out there, hands down.

Check out the Myth Breakers document they compiled:

http://www.votersunite.org/takeaction/mythbreakers.pdf

Keep up the good work David!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
254. LoZoccolo, I think you've hit on an important issue that applies elsewhere
It behooves DUers to insure that when issues are uncovered in the future, they are not allowed to devolve into a cult of personality. I think that if we looked into several issues over the past few decades, many of the failures on the left have been related to this issue.

I don't know how we overcome this issue as ego becomes an issue for any person put into the spotlight. We should be cognizant of the fact that this is a problem that can occur in any investigation and work to insure nothing gets monopolized.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #254
270. important issue Walt
Why does it have to always be either hero or villain, to be worshiped or destroyed? Why not healthy skepticism and open-mindedness?

No leader will ever do and say each and every thing to each and every person's complete satisfaction. Expecting this of our leaders puts a burden on them that not only prevents many leaders from stepping forward, but it makes it difficult for them to be effective when they do. This also divides the community in bitter and unnecessary ways.

I can't think of one liberal or progressive leader who has not alternately been treated as either the second coming or the devil incarnate here, often on the most flimsy and superficial evidence.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #254
331. Walt, that's a very important point.
Here on DU, the admins and mods do a great job containing this exact issue. Their responses and decisions are even-handed and thoughtful. They do not allow egos to run rampant

The Democratic Party could do well to follow the leadership model here at DU. So could all of us who are liberals, progressives, lefties, greens, or whatever we call ourselves.

On the whole, the Democratic Party is mostly averse to following leaders. That is one reason why that other party has been able to fool half of America into following them, even though their policies harm the majority in order to enrich the very few.

We need to rethink our teamwork model, imo.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. Although I applaud the patience of the administration
It might have been better as an announcement rather than a thread.

Just a suggestion.

In the end, this whole brouhaha is quite scary to see. Herding cats indeed.

Alas for Democracy.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
72. It Would Have Become a Thread Anyway
Hell, it would have become a dozen threads. At least this way, there is one centralized place for discussion, which is one of the fundamental tenets of this board.

I applaud and support Admin's decision.

DTH
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
20. Gee Earl...
...ya shoulda been a lawyer! You guys do a great job managing this very busy site. I haven't kept up with all the pissing and moaning vis a vis Bev Harris, but I trust your judgement - it seems solid, given the background of the issue.

Rock on...

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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for filling in some of the background for those of us who are
still relatively new here. It sounds like you made the right decision!
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. What hope is there
if we continue to engage in pissing contests rather than work constructively and together towards common goals. Not that I am not guilty of lack of patience on occasion (well maybe too frequently) but the left has a long and checkered history of fragmentation and ego driven brawling.

It is noteworthy to see how the various factions on the right have put aside differences to achieve goals......
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Original message
An excellent decision, EarlG.
:thumbsup:
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Darknyte7 Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. Damn shame, but it sounds like a reasonable & defensible position...

I realize I'm a newbie, but I truly hope we can move on from this.
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billie_ Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sad that we cannot all work together :( n/t
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
703. Especially during such fragile times : ( n/t
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november3rd Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. dirty laundry
couldn't you have just barred her without making a public announcement? What difference do the details make now?
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Sometimes there is a certain amount of truth to be found in dirty laundry
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Feathered Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Rumours run rampant 'round here
better that it's discussed by admin instead of DUers who only know 1/2 the story.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Well Since you only have 29 posts I can see why you might not understand
This was an extremely heated issue which garnished some realllly strong opinions between DU'rs. A statement in 'public' like this was absolutely necessary since this issue had grown so large. I applaud them completely in their handling of this.

Welcome to DU! :hi:
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Winamericaback Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Because
Her staunch supporters would pretty much start flaming the admins for banning her without knowing the reason.

Also its their site, if they want to let us know why then they can :)
Its an open community, I think they shared the info with respect to that.
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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. Typically we do not discuss why DU members are banned
and it is our preference not to. However, this is an atypical situation. We felt that it was important for everyone to understand why we have made this decision.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
79. Thank you , I appreciate your being open with us so much.
As a relatively new member, who has not been following the original postings from Ms. Harris here (did see the most recent I'll sue you exchange though), I was alarmed that her position as a self-proclaimed spokesperson for this cause was doing more harm than good. I just hope she hasn't done too much damage already, or potentially could do more. I think some of what she's done is important work, I just hope she has the sense to get someone more amenable (and stable) to be the pr person for BBV, otherwise its credibility will devolve further. If she does have good evidence of fraud in Florida, I hope she can figure out a way to get it out there without stomping on any more toes in the process.
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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #79
483. I'm glad, too...
Cuz coming to DU and seeing SO many threads either started because of or highjacked by the fight was getting on my nerves...no matter what parties were involved. Weeding thru/scrolling past them was a pain in the ass.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
153. Bev has made herself a 'public' figure
She is no longer just another anonymous poster.

The only thing I don't understand is how does she have so much time to harass people here, when she's suppose to be up to her ears in this voter fraud stuff? No wonder she missed the deadline for filing that lawsuit in FL.

Unfortunately, Bev has allowed herself to become the story and a good investigator always tries to avoid that.

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #153
180. I was wondering the same DYEW...
time is of the essence now. Or so I was told.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
46. Peddle it elsewhere. This isn't the time or appropriate thread for it.
(n/t)
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TruthOutDawg Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. Actually I REALLY appreciate it!
I've had my concerns based on stunts like that retirement party "service" of LaPore and other communications from BH and I've given money to BBV.org but I've been somewhat uncomfortable with that decision and torn between giving money to BBV.org and other groups like verifiedvoting so I found this really helpful. For the most part, those of us on this site don't have a single dime to spare and it's really important that we make the best decisions about who to support and how to support them. THANK YOU DU for trying as hard as you did and for making the hard decisions AND for the transparency of process!!!!!
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
349. Resources for Recount
A beginning of a list of some of the organizations currently involved in recounting and protecting the vote.....

RESOURCES FOR RECOUNT

The Alliance for Democracy -- The organization was founded by journalist Ronnie Dugger, who wrote one of the first major pieces warning of voting machine flaws, in 1988. Cliff Arnebeck is also a leader in this organization -- he's a litigant in the contest of elections in Ohio. http://www.thealliancefordemocracy.org /

C.A.S.E. -- Citizens' Alliance for Secure Elections http://www.caseohio.org

Green Party -- The Greens and Libertarians raised over $200,000 to run the Ohio recount -- still raising money and helping mobilize possibly 2500 volunteers needed in Ohio. Now calling for recount in NM and NV. www.votecobb.org

Libertarian Party -- www.badnarik.org

Nader -- calling for a partial recount in NH raising funds www.votenader.org Kevin Zeese, Campaign Spokesperson (202) 265-4000

Black Box Voting.org -- www.blackboxvoting.org Bev Harris & crew doing multi-state audit and forensic work on elections, currently investigating counties in Florida

Help America Recount -- a 527 working with the National Ballot Integrity Project and BlackBoxVoting.org to raise funds for recounts, audits and court challenges in Florida & fraud audits in New Mexico and Nevada. www.helpamericarecount.org

Voters Unite -- www.votersunite.org has a growing collection of over 380 articles on voting anomalies in the November 2004 election. Also, a map of where these happened in the US.

Evidence of Possible Election Fraud -- a nice compendium of sources http://shadowbox.i8.com//stolen.htm

Common Cause Ohio -- part of recount effort in Ohio (614)-224-2497 www.commoncause-ohio.org/ccause/home.htm commoncauseohio@aol.com

Votergate -- 30 Minute video, free online, of voting anomalies, etc. -- needs money to continue to investigate and make a longer film. http://www.votergate.tv

Votewatch -- http://www.votewatch.us wants $250,000 to do a professional statistical analysis of the election which can be used as hard evidence of fraud

Verified Voting.org -- www.verifiedvoting.org

Stolen Election 2004 -- current list of protests etc. http://stolenelection2004.com/demos.html

True Majority -- www.truemajority.org founded by Ben of Ben & Jerry's fame

Electronic Freedom Foundation -- www.eff.org moving under the Open Records Act, which allows people to see government records, to gather information, including the impoundment of voting machines, in some counties in Florida, Ohio, New Mexico and Pennsylvania that had serious problems with the machines. Local counsel are needed to help with this effort. Contact Cindy Cohn at cindy@eff.org

N.C. Coalition for Verifiable Voting -- www.ncvoter.net

Election Protection Coalition -- http://www.electionprotection2004.org Multicultural coalition of dozens of organizations. Over 15,000 problems reported to their hotline on election day; over 25,000 volunteers mobilized. Note collection of stories at http://www.electionprotection2004.org/edaynews.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Other states' groups:

California Voter Foundation http://www.calvoter.org /
Georgia www.countthevote.org
Texas Safe Voting http://www.safevoting.org
~~~~~~~~~~~


Secretary of State of Ohio, Ken Blackwell, Republican www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/ General Telephone Number (Toll Free): 1-877-767-6446

GAO - contact, support thorough investigation of election machinery, processes: http://www.gao.gov/fraudnet/fraudnet.htm

Congressman Rush Holt wrote HR 2239 for voter verified paper ballot, also has a site on voting http://www.counteveryvote.org /

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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
176. I think this was the best way to approach this issue
Many of us would have been wondering what happened, and the moderators would have been plagued with a lot of questions to that effect.

I think this was handled appropriately, and with great wisdom.

:yourock:
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
253. The High Road
I think Earl did a GREAT job of communicating- bluntly & to the point- WHY the decision was made.

He was right to do so- having Bev banned WITHOUT explanation would have opened another can of worms as people started making wild accusations. DU doesnt need to be defiled with wild accusations.
He was honest and upfront- something I think most of us agree is the best way to conduct business.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
687. lots of us, like me, have followed some of this and have become
confused and upset over what's going on

it's helpful to have one coherent summary from one viewpoint (DU's)

and why oh why can't democrats dump egos and work together instead of spending so much time and energy fighting with each other????
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
32. good decision
it was primarily a one way relationship from what I can tell benefitting her and BBV
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
36. I applaud the fairness and objectivity of the Admins...
...you put up with the disruptions from that quarter far longer than I would have - and did so with patience and grace. Now, finally, perhaps some semblance of peace can return to the threads where this topic is an ongoing discussion.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
37. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Admin.
You have handled this difficult situation with great tact and cool-headedness.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
188. agreed.
I was uncertain where to fall on this issue, and then decided I didn't need to...I applaud the level headed management here
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
394. I'm a newbie, but lurked a long time
It's too bad Bev "doesn't play well with others," but the DU Admin. did indeed handle the whole thing with patience and tact.
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Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
423. Well, done, moderator, and best of luck to Bev
I think the original post was very well written. I'm sorry that divisiveness has entered the DU world. Perhaps one day we'll move past it.

I appreciate your clear communication to us. This is not about being pro or con Bev. It's about having constructive discussion.

Thanks.
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Razorback_Democrat Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
38. Good decision, now let's move on!
get back to cracking the election fraud!!!!!!

get away from distractions like "who's telling the truth" etc. etc.

Thanks Earl!
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
39. Price of responsibility
I have the greatest respect for those who pay the emotional toll of moderating a political forum during such a volatile time.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Original message
We here in the Maat household support you fully, EarlG!
DU has provided invaluable emotional support, an outlet for my progressive views, and has been a catalyst for progressive networking and org. growth. I appreciate your work and am a proud donor!

Sorry that it came to this, but your post was very well-written. I intend to support voting system auditing, monitoring, and improvement efforts. There are many good ways to do this, however.
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spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
41. There was so much fighting going on that I was afraid to ask
how releasing the information about the tapes would tip the hand of the offenders in Florida? They knew how they cheated, assuming they did, they had another copy of the tape to study for differences so it didn't follow to me that releasing the information publicly would do anything harmful to her effort.

It seemed that the release would be entirely beneficial, thousands of heads to analyze the data, as well as lending her much needed credibility.

This was a good decision on the part of the moderators although I feel bad for Bev and her supporters, the fighting just had to stop.
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
44. Does anybody have Bev Harris' birth date information?
As long as we are in the mode of "looking at Bev" one way or the other...

I have been a practicing astrologer for many years and had done searches for Ms Harris' birthdata on the internet with no success in these past weeks. I'm not interested in anything other than just her birth date(if you have anything else, such as place or time of birth that would be great, but it's not necessary). I'd be curious to know what sort of planetary problems she is dealing with.

I can surely understand DU's position, and also feel you have done very well to maintain your objectivity...just as a wise parent. Sometimes you must go for the "tough love" aspect.

Thanks for any info.

JD
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:58 PM
Original message
Perhaps that, her social security number and major credit cards would
give a better reading.

Apologies if you are sincere, but I find asking for someone's personal info on a political forum to be very inappropriate and would hope even if someone HAD the info they would not tell you.
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Razorback_Democrat Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
63. No kidding
that would be inappropriate for any reason

astrologer?
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
69. Good Lord, you can go to just about any astro site on the web,
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:15 PM by JD Lau
especially Lois Rodden's and get personal data for ANY public
figure. Try it yourself. I have both Eliz Edwards and John Edwards charts, Kerry's chart...Gore's chart.

If you think this is inappropriate, then fine. Guess I'll just keep looking elsewhere...

I'll post the URL for Rodden's site and you can see for yourself, just what data is available for personal research. Just as voting records are available.....


Here's the Rodden site URL...Astrodatabank.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/Links.htm

Check out your favorite "famous people"

Yes, this is a sidenote and a monumental waste of energy, but for those of us wondering about the dynamics of the continuing election process, Ms. Harris' info would make a nice counter to all I have regarding Bush and Cheney.

Nevermind. Energy better turned in many other directions.

JD
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. LOL
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CyberChas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
68. How about sleep deprivation and stress?
That can make a person a bit "gritchy" as well.

Charlie Levenson
Portland, Oregon
CLL2001@Gmail.com
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #68
80. Yeah, but different people handle stress and sleep depriviation
in different ways. I, personally, don't know all that many people that threaten lawsuits when sleep deprived. ;)
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
374. Sounds like a uranus transit, almost.
Geez, louise! All he wants is her date, time and place of birth. He/she doesn't care about anything else, just those numbers. You'd think he was asking for really personal information, or something. Calm down.

JD, email her and ask her. She'll probably tell you.
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
409. I hear you
You can't help but wonder. Some Mars/Mercury/Pluto issues? Where's the Leo...and so on.
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sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #409
720. I was really getting Scorpio and Pluto issues ...
maybe combined with a strong Saturn placement which would explain the control issues. Of course it could be an eight house Leo sun as well and we may both be right lol.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
48. Thank you Earl.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:00 PM by saracat
This was a wise and thoughtful decision. You are to be commended for your patience. You have taken a stand for the protection not only of the crediblity od DU. But the credeibility of the Voter fraud issue in general.I am sure this will go a long way to rebuilding confidence in this issue. Thank you again. You guys rock! :yourock:
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JoMama49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
49. Are you sure it's the real Bev Harris

Or Karl Rove in drag?
JoMama.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Karl Rove in Drag -- *shudder* -- LOL n/t
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #55
110. karl in drag..... doesn't look a bit like Bev!
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #110
121. LMFAO
It's Barbara Rove :D
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #110
184. This is hysterical...LOL!!
Thank you for making me laugh!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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DemOperative Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #110
214. yes..but add the right wig!!
That's a horse of a different color

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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. They have her IP adress.
They know things you and I don't.

Bev crucified herself. DU admin nor Rove didn't have to do it for her.
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Dolphyn Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. I was wondering that too.
With everything she's doing in Florida, it's hard to believe that she'd have time to sit around flagging messages at DU ...
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
86. Without DU, she wouldn't be doing ANYTHING in Florida.
DU was Bev's springboard and remained her greatest avenue to solicit. (She even solicited TODAY on DU!)

Now she has no DU.
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
187. Maddy...I noticed this too
I contributed to her site after the election, and, while I did not take an active role in the discussions about KO and Bev, I was thinking that, as a donor, I, as well as all other donors, deserved some evidence of the fruits of our donations.

And, I noticed that she talked about additional expenses today...and requested more donations. I wondered about this as we hadn't really seen any evidence that our money was really at work.

I believe in this cause, but I am not sure that it is being well-served by Bev and her group.

I feel used. But, as they say, "live and learn"...

:-)
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #187
372. Used
and probably the last short term hope dashed to the rocks. A hope that there could be redemption for this country. We may have turned the corner now. And there may be no return in the foreseeable future.
Looks like a mighty long road ahead.
Yea, Used!
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jmatthan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
51. Another win for the repugs in the divide and rule philosophy

Sad, but that seems to be what American democracy is about - handing victory to the opponent.

Just by the way, unlike most of you I did not hear about Bev Harris and BBV from DU - it was through talk show hosts Mike Malloy, Thom Hartmann, Peter Werbe and Mike Webb.

Do recall what I wrote about ego!!!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu Finland
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Bev wouldn't have been on Malloy or any other media forum
without DU. Period.
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jmatthan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
92. Sorry, but I have heard a lot of

people on these shows which have NEVER been featured on the DU forum (during my time here).

Please try to stop thinking inside of a small box audience of around NOW 60000!!

If I am not wrong when I joined DU is was only half that number!!!

My "small" findians worldwide community is over 80000.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #92
120. You miss the point.
Bev would not have even attached to the issue of BBV had it not been for DU, where the BBV was already developing when she latched on.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #120
126. Yep, it goes waaaaay back and is in the DU archives
Bev Harris did not originate the idea that these new voting machiens were a bad idea.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #126
152. and ultimately, the whole case of electrion fraud will be nowhere
without the MSM -- so it's not a bridge you wanna burn.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #126
190. actually Skip Fox IIRC used to post a compendium of BBV issues
in editorials on a daily basis when no one was paying attention to the issue. He did the same thing with Halliburton. This was a few years ago.
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DemOperative Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #190
219. where IS Skip Fox today??
Masterful researcher. I tried to get him to go to work for the party, but to no avail.

I LOVED his stuff when I only lurked
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #219
223. He still posts but is busy and is probably still in mourning, I imagine
he lost his father last year
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #126
255. The earliest reference I have come up
with on the topic is a Symposium in Boston in 1986.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Faun Otter Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #120
199. You're exactly right about the historical aspect
And thanks, Earl.

I feel safe posting on DU again.

Faun
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #199
353. Faun Otter is on a very short list of names of people in the U.S.
who were making the case within hours of Kerry's concession that "This is wrong. We can prove it."

I feel like this early moment was like another Boston Tea Party. A bunch of good minds got together and said, "What the fuck???" And "What are we going to do about it?"

It is turning out to be historical in its ramifications.

I salute you.
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #92
518. Hey Jacob
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 04:47 AM by SomthingsGotaGive
Do some homework and stop lecturing Americans on how to deal with agent provocateurs.

Search the archives...if you are not a member use the goggle advanced site search feature.

Either way search...

Bev + Evidence + Donations


In the Time you've been here have you ever seen Bev or anyone from BBV ever say...

"look there is only three of us. there is no way we will be able to go through all of the info everyone is sending us. please also send copies to the other BBV organizations to speed the process up."


Did she ever hire any more staff with the donations in order to at least deal with phone and email messages?


Instead she sat back let everybody send her their vote fraud tips and data analysis and never looked at ANY of it.

How could she. ALL three of them are gallivanting around Florida reliving their glory days this time with a film crew.

Sooooo

Professor Democracy, Which do you think is better...

Letting a tumor fester and grow for the sake of unity during your slow painful death.

or

Radical invasive surgery to remove the tumor, while immediately traumatic, the patient lives.


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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #92
551. Jacob, could I get
your views on this post by Bev on her on site?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Please keep in mind when you read this how many people from Bev's legions have accused us of working for Karl Rove.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
73. It is difficult for a strong personality to throw themselves into a fight
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM by tsuki
like this without it becoming "ego." It is the reason why so many "crusaders" are seen as misfits and egomanics by their contempories and heroes by future generations who see only the accomplishments.

I wish Bev Harris well. I respect the Admin's decision.

I shall be following her work, as all other groups.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
148.  And none of those are really MSM. Preaching to the choir.
Any of us could get on those shows in a nano second.
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
256. NO
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 05:44 PM by HeyManThatsCool
It is NOT a "win" for the republicans.
You cant think like that!

edited to add: A win for the republicans would be if we all rolled over, grabbed the kool aid jug and started gulping. We aren't about to do that
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
388. OFGS! Whatever you gave you gave to what you thought was a good
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 09:34 PM by KoKo01
cause! Bev's stuff convinced one freep type and two friends Repugs in my own circle of friends,that there was something wrong with our voting. So If that's just three folks for me...how many others did the research DU'ers did for her contribute to waking up folks.

I hate to hear this "Lost Cause Stuff." I'm so down in the dumps it's hard for me to see up...but in this case whatever you gave to get the message about BBVoting out was worth it. Just forget the "leader." I'm not fond of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton...but when you need 'em they are their with their mouths...

Just trying to "buck you up" not dis you here...
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
52. I knew it was bad, but I had no idea that it was THAT bad.
You made the right decision. Now let's get down to the real business of voter fraud.

:toast:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
87. Let's Keep Supporting Keith Olbermann
KOlbermann@MSNBC.com

Question:
Will Bev's damaged standing affect the fight for election reform? Like it or not,
her work and her website is identified with the fight for paper-trail verification.
David Dill of Verified Voting disappointed me after the election when I thought
he'd at least raise questions.

Let's all try to make it to Columbus, OH tomorrow and DC on Tuesday.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #87
124. I have emailed him twice, thanking him for his journalistic efforts.
He's a true advocate for us.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #124
135. I wonder if anybody will email him this Thread Post n/t
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #124
137. I emailed him too today, thanking him for his objectivity and
saying that I hoped he hadn't received too many off the wall emails yelling at him about Bev... I haven't commented on this much because I am new, but I have read all the evidence that has been provided. I think we need to let Keith now that he is doing the right thing by remaining objective, because that IS his job. I know I might get flamed for saying this, but really, we need to stay calm, and think before hitting send. Keith is the only one covering this - we need to respect him for it, and thank him. Just my two cents.

And thank you Administrators for clearing this up for me, I didn't know what to think over the past few days with all the mud slinging. :)
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
56. Very sorry to hear this about Bev.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM by Casablanca
And a good response from the moderators. The cause of verified voting is far too crucial to have it shot down by her overplaying the lawsuit activism game, if that is the case.
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stirringstill Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
70. Back To Issues
Lawsuit threats never win friends.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
59. End of the story.
Seen it before -- some people just let ego get in the way. Sigh.
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Miami Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
61. Good decision
now we can move on to other issues.
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Ducks In A Row Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
65. I'm sorry, but I don't agree this is Bev's fault as you imply
Bev Harris has been kind enough to share what's happening. I for one am grateful for the dialog.

It's sad that DU piles on because Bev isn't toadying up to some people the way those people want.

But that's not Bev's fault, seeing how she gets along quite well with people who aren't being primadonna. Mike Webb doesn't have problems with her, yet Keith Oblermann does. Randi Rhodes doesn't have problems with her.

I think it's especially rude to make this announcement in the middle of what is a crucial time for Florida. And it's esp. stupid in light that Keith Oblermann's bullshit seems to be the catalyst for this bull.

Well, if it's a choice between a Keith Oblermann, whose only two jobs are to get ratings and not bash bushco, and Bev Harris, it's Bev all the way.

Btw, banning Bev and not the freepers who followed Keith O. lead is the height of hypocrisy.



Its' too bad DU seems to be playing into the hands of the MSM, bushco, and the freepers at this time. And sad. And very disappointing.






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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. And I am sick and tired of you calling anyone who has issues with Bev a
FREEPER. We are not the ones who sold Clinton Cigars, she is. If ANYONE might possibly be the enemy, I think it would be the one who CONNIVED Du'ers into writing a book for her, all the while she denying that was what she was doing. I would think the freeper would be the one that callously SOLD Clinton Cigars. I would think the freeper would be the one that took TOTAL control of the project from the MANY activists who had been working it. I would think the Freeper would be the one who REPEATEDLY misrepresented the facts and the shielded the project from other known liberals. I would think the freeper would be the one who advised others not to file a qui tam lawsuit then FILED ONE HERSELF.

So please refrain from calling anyone names unless you know all the facts. I WATCHED DU write that book for her.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #71
114. Clarification
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:34 PM by plan9_pub
I would think the freeper would be the one who advised others not to file a qui tam lawsuit then FILED ONE HERSELF.

She just didn't advise other people not to file qui tams, she falsely accused other people of doing so and publicly VILLIFIED them. When she was remined of this fact in July, she CATEGORICALLY DENIED ever accusing anyone and dared people to prove she did. When BURIED with said proof, she then sulked and said she was not going to post on DU anymore, but came back and used DU to raise money for her "foundation" (which according to an email she sent me, she is the only salaried employee of).

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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carolinalady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #114
133. regarding the salaried employee issue----
We will know soon enough exactly how much money has been donated and exactly how much she is paying herself. I did some research today on her 501(c)3 and found a web site called Guide Star. I was able to get her EIN number. It looks like she got her IRS classification this year so the tax records are not yet available, but they will be after she files this year. This is a free website to use and you can check any charity's financials. I will be curious to see the report.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #133
172. Maybe she does draw a large salary....
but I suspect that she has an interest in the movie that is about to be released and which probably owns the copyright to the video that everyone is screaming about. From what is posted on the web, it looks a bit like F911, but not quite as dramatic.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #172
181. What I have suspected all along is that...
she took donations from people supporting BBV efforts, and then did the "activism" part, which will then be used in the documentary.

So basically it appears that the 501c3 is propping up the profitable business. They are disconnected on paper, but only on paper.
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #181
330. If that is the case she should consider running for office as a
Republican.

:)
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #330
355. It wouldn't be that far fetched for her to do so as a Republican.
She's an opportunist of the nth degree. You've heard about her hocking those "Clinton Cigars" during the impeachment for five dollars each?

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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #355
455. I didn't know about it until I read it a couple of days ago here.
It appears I didn't know alot of things until a couple of days ago. I feel like a putz on so many levels. The Clinton Cigars were just vulgar, the whole thing makes me ill.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #172
503. I agree, it's about a movie or video rights
I think she figures that she has at least a movie on the scale of "Outfoxed" on her hands. This was made clear by the fact that Votergate.tv uploaded a film to Archive.org, and then it was removed after "rights" issues appeared. Now Votergate.tv is hosting the film through other websites that do not require the video to be in the public domain. The fact that Harris mentioned that two or more different entities are fighting about various videos, plus the entire MSNBC ordeal, makes me think that her main motivation here is to cash out the video to the highest bidder. If she didn't care about the money, the raw video would have been released already. (Of course there's always the possibility that the video simply does not exist or is not worth the tape it was recorded on.)
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #133
174. As will many people
Given what she cost me in lost revenue and legal fees.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #114
134. Ahh...but it's all in the archives of DU
And she can't delete that. Evidence is there of her qui tam craziness.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #71
164. Thank you!
After reviewing the archives I could not agree with you more!
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #65
77. you should be banned from using the work "freeper" n/t
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #77
93. Or just the first part of the sentence.
How many times has he done this. ON every single post in which people agree with him, he calls us freepers, as does all of the others who have flooded DU in the past couple of days.

I guess that was the marching orders they were given. Disarm any attacks agains the Bev by replying that if you disagree, you must be a freeper or a "repuke."
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. Thing is, with repetition...
...it just becomes more and more of a joke.

What's funny is it seems that I almost always disagree strongly with someone who has to go around making those accusations to try to protect their delicate opinion.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #100
116. The problem is, there is no opinion of theirs to disagree with.
They just spout the same things over and over, and when you point out their errors, they revert to calling you freepers.

I would have loved to have had true, intelligent dialog with anyone on "her side" over this, but there was no way. I tried to point out that she didn't "serve papers" on LePore, because it was just a "courtesy copy" that she handed LePore, that she did it for attention, because LePore had already been served. The real legal service had happened that morning at LePore's office and attorney.

I would have loved to have heard someone justify a different opinion on the matter. Instead, they attacked me with the most outrageous insults. They didn't level-headedly discuss the point I had made; they didn't offer any real defense of her position.

Instead, they called me a "mad cow," a "freeper," a "Rove operative," and a "Repuke." Then they attempted to create a flame war to get the thread shut, which they did, before Skinner and Earl realized the context in which all of this had happened. Funny how truth has a way of emerging, given a couple of days.

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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #116
717. So if the LePlore thing was just a PR stunt....so what....I hope you
don't get offended, I'm just trying to understand this. I'm talking just specifically about the Leplore thing now...if she was showboating, why is that so bad? It seems like that Repugs are killing us with their PR stunts...God knows they're not getting votes on the issues.

I think the Dem party has had the smarter and more professional people for a long time....and were getting killed...why? Maybe Bev isn't the answer but we sure do need to start shaking things up a little.

And to tell you the truth....It make take a back-stabber (if she is one) to get to these people (Repugs). I think the biggest weakness the Dems have had is that they think they have "opponents", but with this group, they have "enemies" and they better come to grips with that.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #93
169. I did, I did -- even if in private messages.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 03:44 PM by Stand and Fight
Your posts actually caused me to give vent to my own reservations via private messages to you. Upon thoroughly researching the archives there was only one logical conclusion to make. I strongly feel that the admin has made the best decision.

If this recount effort does not work -- in our favor -- I am going to lobby the people here to lobby their congressional representatives to push for impeachment of Bush and company. I started to mention it yesterday in a thread, but backed off as it occurred to me that it would only serve to deflect from our current ongoing efforts. I just have to be patient and hope that just is served -- preferably before the chimp is out of office. I don't want to be one who takes away from the current strategy, and I most definitely don't want to be deemed a "FReeper" by anyone.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. But has she been honest?
DU hasn't piled on Bev because she doesn't kiss up. Everyone here gave her many chances. But when we saw the way she not only alientated BUT ATTACKED the people who were instrumental in doing the research and writing the chapters of "her" book, we understood what she was doing.

If bev didn't want this announcement made during this "crucial time," (and if you know anything about her, you know that everytime suspicion is raised about her methods and her objectives, she develops a crisis) then she shouldn't have come on DU and ignored the rules that DU admin had laid out for her.

People who are fans of Olbermann are not freepers. How dare you? Just because we don't share your point of view does not make us freepers...do you realize you are calling the very founding members of DU freepers? You have a lot of gall.

So that's the way you are going to sum it up...We are being manipulated by Rove. LOL! Actually, DUers are NOT easily manipulated. Bev's tombstone demonstrates that, doesn't it.

Kudos to DU admin, who, through the years, have weathered much bigger storms than Bev. DU's still here. Will BBV.org still be around in six months? I think not.

:toast:
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #65
88. I like KO and I'm not a freeper
I've followed Bev and BBV for a while and donated to her cause. Why can't you see that there are those of us that want BOTH to survive?
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regularjoe Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
157. I second that! I wish the best for all involved.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #65
94. Boy, Ducks, I'd be very interested to hear, why, exactly,
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:22 PM by crispini
you are completely, 100%, always in Bev's court? When there are threads here on DU showing Bev's inability to approach difficulties in a reasonable manner, and NUMEROUS long-time reputable posters who have stories to relate that jibe with the behavior above.

Seriously. You don't seem to be very objective to me. What is your substantive evidence for your faith that Bev is behaving appropriately, and ALL of the people who have interacted with her and are attesting to her difficulty to work with are not?
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #94
259. It reminds me of GWB
and how people blindly follow him even though in their hearts they know he is (a) WRONG and (b) NOT SMART

Just because Beverly claimed she had proof of fraud doesn't make it so. Just because Bush told America that he had to stay president or we wouldn't be safe didn't make it so.

Sad to say that alot of people do things to further their careers, their profiles. They enjoy the adulation. I believe Beverly falls into that category.

And frankly, if she realy has any evidence- she will be busting her hump to get it out there now that she has lost almost all credibility
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
106. Wooohooooooo Keith!
Let's go K O !!!

Olbermann, You Rock man, Keep up the great work in your objectivity!!!!!!!

:yourock:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:26 PM
Original message
Olbermann was fired from Faux for not spouting RW BS. I'll take Mr. O
over the primadonna Ms. Harris any day ... if I have to choose.

I wish Bev well, but the way she's treated people here, and handled this situation does not deserve respect.
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IStriker Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
401. Olbermann worked for Fox? Ewwwwwwww! When was that?
I never knew he worked there but my cable only got Fox about 2 yrs. ago and I'm sorry I have to pay for it since I never look at it. UGH! I remember him from ESPN hockey and never knew what happened to him when they fired him.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
279. can you see where this would lead?
"...the freepers who followed Keith O. lead..."

What you are saying is that there is only one possible position for a person to take on an issue, or the person will be accused of being on the side of evil. People with the solid credibility of decades of liberal activism as well as thousands of intelligent, detailed and passionate posts on liberal and progressive positions here have been maligned and smeared simply because they raised questions about things that public figures, such as Harris, were doing. Many of the most aggressive people who then piled on to "accuse the accusers" had little in the way of credentials or a track record themselves.

So I am not telling you that you are too paranoid, rather perhaps you are not paranoid enough. The issue here, though, is not whether one should be suspicious or complacent, aggressive or passive, rather it is one of how we manage suspicion in such a way that innocent people don't get destroyed and so that the community doesn't get ripped apart and thus weakened. See what I mean?

And then, by extension, DU gets smeared with the same suspicions.

"Its' too bad DU seems to be playing into the hands of the MSM, bushco, and the freepers at this time."

Can you see how suspicion can grow and grow until it destroys everyone? Can you see how that resultant climate of acrimony and suspicion is the thing that most plays into the hands of the opposition?

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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #279
523. m berst...
I just wanted to say that I've been sorta following this from a distance since it blew up yesterday (the day before?), and your posts are some of the most reasonable, rational, even-handed posts of the bunch.

Great post.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #523
526. thanks Chili
Thanks for the kind words. There have been some amazing battles the last few days here. They seem to follow the same script - true believers; a bunch of aggressive cheerleaders with one liners; intolerance of any skepticism; innocent people sucked into one "side" or the other; accusations and innuendo; suspicion and hostility - all circling around these complex and problematic "research" efforts that someone is supposedly suppressing.

- Mike
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
679. Good post, Ducks in a Row.
And I think we should be allowed to call freepers freepers. We all know they are here. It's no secret. We cannot allow their squabbles with those standing up for democracy to result in a loss of good leaders. When that happens, democracy loses and the bad guys win.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #679
682. On The FlipSide
"We cannot allow their squabbles with those standing up for democracy to result in a loss of good leaders. When that happens, democracy loses and the bad guys win."

Nor can we allow our LEADERS to act in irresponsible, threatning, self-serving, inappropriate, immature, obnoxious and arrogant ways. For that too can hurt our efforts and help the bad guys win.

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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #682
693. Good leaders are productive. They get RESULTS
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 08:26 PM by Maddy McCall
The best leaders know their weaknesses and delegate authority to others who are better suited for particular facets of activism. Sometimes they are the ones behind the scenes who receive absolutely no acclaim.

Good leaders don't hog the spotlight and push others who have authentic interest away. They don't allow their personal flaws to sink the interest of the greater good.

Now, you tell me, how has Bev Harris demonstrated that she is a good leader?
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #693
700. Maddy, I agree with you COMPLETELY
Did you respond to the wrong post maybe?

:)
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #700
704. Yes, indeed I did. I was responding to Ducks
Thanks for pointing that out. :-)
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #693
709. The best leaders NEVER take credit
They ALWAYS insure those who have been delegated the real work get all of the credit!
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Broken Acorn Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
66. Good bye and Good Riddance to Bev
I fully support DU's decision and professional way of handling this situation. Unfortunately, some people just never learn :(
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
74. I was thinking..
EarlG, how about anchoring this thread so that it remains at the top of the pile? Just for a day or so. I commend you for this statement and I think everybody should see this. We all know how threads get buried very quickly on this forum.

Just a suggestion. My hat's off to you.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #74
83. Bump and kick
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
75. Hear hear! Verified Voting is too VITAL to be reduced to personalities
"From now on, we encourage all of our members to focus on discussing the verified voting issue itself, rather than the personalities involved."

There are many, many people working on the issue.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
76. Some people simply do not have the capacity to communicate with others
From what I have seen Bev is a pretty good investigator and has done a lot of hard work, slogging through thousands, maybe millions of pages of highly technical information to bring computerized voting to the forefront as an issue. Frankly though, with her limited staff and resources I doubt she could take it beyond that and have the capacity to investigate elections as they happen without a great expansion of her efforts, manpower and money.

From what I understand she has had many offers of personal services from DUers to accomplish that but due to her desire to remain in complete control of BBV she has rebuffed all offers and in some cases even expelled those who were already on the BBV staff when their levels of influence exceeded that which she was willing to personally accept.

My only personal experience with her was a few weeks back when she was haranging DUers who were just trying to help her with threats about suing them over the use of the term "Cleanup Crew" which I frankly doubt could possibily be trademarked or copyrighted since it is such a generic term.

Reading all the posts by those who have interacted with her in the past over the past few days just reinforced my impressions and then when I read that she basically bombed KO with abusive and threatening calls and mail and now your post explaining that DU was subjected to basically the same thing I think you had no real choice and want to commend you for an almost infinite amount of patience in your actions.



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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
89. She Threatened to Sue Over "Cleanup Crew"?!?
What a fucking joke.

DTH
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #89
117. Yes, there are still several threads on it in the Voting Issues forum
and Skinner posted about it somewhere though I cannot recall where, stating that she had also threatened to sue DU over the term's use by posters, attempting to get DU to police the posts and delete or lock any that used the term.

I asked her a few questions about it (I am a lawyer but not a patent lawyer), since there are no TM or copyright designations of any kind that I could see on her website and her responses were, imo, clipped, arrogant and dismissive.
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Faun Otter Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #117
211. Here's the specifics on the trademark
Searching trademark ownership can be done at this site:

http://www.uspto.gov /

I think the term as used was more likely to qualify as a service-mark since there is no tangible object to mark. As I read it, Bev claims "Clean Up Crew" or some arrangement of that term including the letters BBV, is a trademark belonging to her. If it is pending, a record might not show up but the US Patent and Trademark Office report that...

Word Mark
CLEAN UP CREW

Goods and Services
IC 003. US 052. G & S: Hand Soap and Hand Cleaner and Skin Cleanser. FIRST USE: 19820300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19820300

Registration Number
1280383

Registration Date
June 5, 1984

Owner
(REGISTRANT) Huntington Laboratories, Inc. CORPORATION INDIANA 968 E. Tipton St. Huntington INDIANA 46750

(LAST LISTED OWNER) Ecolab Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 370 Wabasha Street N St. Paul MINNESOTA 55102

While I may not trust certain parts of our government, I think the PTO records are probably quite good. This is strong evidence that any registration of the service mark 'Clean Up crew' is, at best, pending. It is not a registered trademark belonging to Harris.

Faun
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carolinalady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #211
217. From this it looks like it is quite possible that Ms. Harris may be
using someone else's trademark.
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Faun Otter Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #217
274. It doesn't work like that
A trademark shows the origin of an item. If Bev uses the term "Clean up crew" to try to sell some sort of hand cleaner, the possible confusion as to who orignated the soap would be a problem. If I simply call a group of people a "clean Up Crew" I am not trying to pass them off as a type of hand soap from another company.

Here is a good source of basic information on trademarks, copyrights and patents (Called intellectual property as a group)
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic /

Faun

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carolinalady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #274
276. Thanks--sorry for my ignorance. :)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #274
373. Yes....I had a big problem with her outburst on that. Thought about it
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 09:27 PM by KoKo01
and decided she was trying to "distance herself from DU" so as to position BBVoting as "non-partisan." I figured: "Hey if Kerry and DNC/DLC can do it maybe Bev is right and she slammed us because she was afraid Drudge and Coulter crowd would immediately label her as a "Democratic Agitator with Tinfoil." So...as pissed as her really agressive, threatening, remarks were...I figured we needed all the help we could get because most of us were in shock, dead brained, crying our eyes out or in caves at that point figuring we were "left as garbage" by our candidates.

So...I said...give her a break on this. :shrug: But, I didn't spend hundreds of hours giving her info for free, I only had a brief negative encounter with her and did a little early "name search," when she was first "nosing around" about BBV. The folks who did all the computer stuff are the ones who feel stiffed and I can see why...

But, still. She put it together and "went on the road" and woke up alot of folks to what was going on. How could we all have jumped on this election without something already there to build on. :shrug:
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #373
375. I'm no expert on this
and older-timer DU'ers can speak more to this -- but maybe you should do more research.

From what I know DU pre-exists BBV.org, and is at least a big part of the reason BBV.org got started.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #375
411. I was on DU lurking within the first five months...I've been here a long
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 10:09 PM by KoKo01
time. Bev brought it together and got researchers on it. The earlier studies were done by professors and were just hanging out there in the "ether."

So, that's why I've been posting about this. I was here when it started and watched it progress the warts and all... I've been here 3 and 3/4 years. DU was founded on Inauguration night 2000. Or, should I say "Installation Night." :D
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #411
413. then your statement isn't exactly correct...
"But, still. She put it together and "went on the road" and woke up alot of folks to what was going on. How could we all have jumped on this election without something already there to build on."

something wasn't already there to build on -- she built on ideas from DU.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #413
567. yes...that's what I said....she built on what DU computer code
investigators found in their research. Although Bev has said she found the GEM's code from Diebold online herself, I believe. She couldn't have figured out how hacking could occur without the DU investigators.

:shrug:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #567
576. Check this post
for a tad more on how the code was found.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #89
130. Yes, it is laughable. She claimed a phrase in the common lexicon was...
HER trade name, which is utter bullshit.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #130
167. It was "BBV Clean Up Crew"
and she didn't "own" BBV.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #167
183. It's so transparent, isn't it? She wasn't worried about protecting her...
"trade name." She was trying to silence a groundswell at DU that was actually getting something done in election fraud investigations. She was afraid that they were about to steal her thunder, so she threw a roadblock up in front of some very dedicated and prolific activists.

To me, that was the beginning of the end for her, as well as the action by her that exposed what she is truly made of.

I hope that DU's Clean Up Crew will continue in their efforts and use their Clean Up Crew name again! It is THEIRS if they want it because it is a common lexicon terminology.

If Bev were truly concerned about the fraud, over her desires for self-promotion and enriching her pocketbook, she would have applauded any efforts DUers were undertaking on the same issue she PRETENDS to care so much about.

That one episode showed me that Bev is in this for Bev, and Bev only.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #89
444. Yeah, that's what made me go, "WTF?" n/t
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #89
509. Yes, she did
And at the time I had no fucking clue that she used the term "clean up crew" on her web site.
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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. Good call
in my opinion. It's a shame it came to this but I think it was the only choice that could be made.
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SueZhope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
78. Thanks for diplomacy
Looks you you folks did your best to work things out for the bigger cause.
Sounds like you were very patient along the way, putting principles over personalities
I can imagine this being difficult decision to make

Thanks for clarifying the DU position on the situation
Im sure you did what was best for the the group.

Bev can still continue her important work
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
81. Behind the scenes things are different than they appear
All her reports of being hacked and fearing for her safety had me thinking her a Grassroots fire brand pushing for our cause.

EarlG's enlightening posts is welcome if not dispiriting. Bev may have pushed the envelope in several areas of BBV investigation while testing DU as an online community. Bev can still make a contribution and she already has. This information sure lends credence to the attacks she received here and at BartCop Forum.

I hoped it was not the case but she may need to be marginalized for our protection. I wish her the best.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #81
445. I'm wondering how much of what she said is even true.
Did she get hacked? Was she threatened? Was there a media blackout? Once she started threatening to sue over a silly phrase she claimed as her own, I started thinking we were being led on.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #445
448. crossed my mind earlier today...
not being led on, but how much "media blackout" has to do with her. Now, I don't for one minute think ALL of it is her, and I can't say if it's a substantial part of it, but with what has transpired over the last 48 hours, I couldn't help but think "if she deals with people like this all the time it's no wonder no one will put her on air".

It's all very sad, no matter how you slice it.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
84. With Regret, I Agree
I support the DU Admin. in their decision. It is time for Bev to stop sowing rancor and start producing results beyond publicity stunts. I could not agree more completely with the sentiment that it is critical that the issue of vote fraud move forward on a broad front and that more efforts by other people and groups are supported.

I wish Bev luck and I hope she does have the smoking gun, but the DU moderators don't have to pay the price for her odd behavior.

"Hence it comes about that all armed prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed prophets have been destroyed."

Niccolo Machiavelli
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #84
322. See that's the thing, though
If she DOES discover the smoking gun, what support will she get from this place?

That's why I, an impartial observer who only heard of Bev on Nov. 3rd and who has posted here only since the 8th or 9th just hoping and praying and emailing and donating to anything that looks promising can say with all clarity that the infighting can come back to bite everyone in the ass.

An as an aside, all the folks here who bash Bev's ego while simultaneously spouting off to "newbies" proclaiming how their 1000 plus posts give them some kind of authoratative credibility is just bunk. All it demonstrates is that you spend most of your time in this biased exclusive forum. I have over half a million posts over the course of ten years in multiple forums from religion to politics to science and beyond. What that makes me is well rounded and able to see what you folks in this bubble of yours cannot seem to conceive:

NEVER BURN YOUR BRIDGES. It may may you feel vindicated and self important at the time, but it is UNWISE.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #322
326. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #326
334. We're all hypocrites, that's not the point
The point of my post which you FAIL to address is this:

What if BEV FINDS THE SMOKING GUN????

Or are you now going to hope she doesn't?

Or if she does will you cut off your nose to spite your face??

You just don't get it.

Burn away Baby. . . :-)
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #334
336. No YOU don't get it
What good does it do for her to find the smoking gun if she's seen as a loon who can't control her temper?

I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #336
351. This is nuts:


"What good does it do for her to find the smoking gun if she's seen as a loon who can't control her temper?

I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics."

::::blinking rubbing me eyes, am I reading this correctly??:::::

So it's okay if she finds it--the proof that Bush stole the election and perp walks are televised while Bush goes down in shame and is replaced by our rightfully elected candidate-- so long as BEV HARRIS learns a lesson in the process?? The result of Democracy being restored to the American People would be secondary to Bev's education?


O man. You can't possibly be serious.

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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #351
354. has nothing to do with learning a lesson
Read it AGAIN

"I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics."

If she finds it but no one will LOOK at it or recognize it or tell anyone else about it or listen to her case (because she DOESN'T adjust her behavior and they think she's a nut), what GOOD does it do? NONE. It won't have any impact on anyone or anything except for a handful of people who know about it.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #334
338. Honestly, I don't believe she will ever find a smoking gun
If one is ever found, it will be an activist in it for the principle instead of the money.
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #334
524. she said she has it !!!
Several times !!

The boy who cried wolf.

She is the one who told us it was OK to use the F word.

Last night on Mike Web he asked her point blank.

"Do you smell Fraud in OH, FL, Washington, or ANY other state."

She said...

"I think there are activities consistent with it in varying degrees."

WTF


Is that the same as weapons of mass destruction program related activities?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #322
344. This is the best-moderated site I've seen, and I too have thousands
of posts on dozens of sites ranging over many topics.

The admins and mods here at DU are very thoughtful and evenhanded, and they do a wonderful job herding all 60,000 of us cats, plus the dozen or so deliberate disruptors who are here at any given time.

I don't know all the details of this case, but I've been here long enough to see some very petulant and unhelpful behavior. The admins did what they had to do in this instance.

As for random DUers who say silly and unwelcoming things, well, in any group of this size you are going to run into folks who are having a bad day, don't get along well with others, etc.

I welcome you to DU and hope that you will stay with us!
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #322
410. She's been one step from "finding the smoking gun" for months...
she keeps getting close to the smoking gun, and donations peak. See the pattern?
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #410
548. Make that years
She supposedly had the smoking gun from the 2002 elections but I guess she needed to keep it hidden to 'further the cause.'
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #322
412. Impartial observer?
If she DOES discover the smoking gun, what support will she get from this place?

If her evidence is TRUTHFUL, she'll make the Late Breaking News forum like every other story.

An as an aside, all the folks here who bash Bev's ego while simultaneously spouting off to "newbies" proclaiming how their 1000 plus posts give them some kind of authoritative credibility is just bunk

It gives many of us credibility because:

1) We been here longer and have seen the woman in action attacking her own allies.

2) Some of us, such as myself, have known her longer than you, and are VERY acquainted with her tantrums (and have the scars to prove it.

3) We are all a little suspicious of newly minted users who all seem to be posting in Bev's defense.

NEVER BURN YOUR BRIDGES. It may may you feel vindicated and self important at the time, but it is UNWISE.

LOL!!!! Absolutely correct! Now, will you tell Bev, or shall I?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #322
428. "biased exclusive forum" - sheer nonsense...
...Perhaps you haven't been paying attention (sycophants rarely do when it comes to criticism of their heroes) but if you'd bothered to read through the thread you might have discovered that your messiah was given to bouts of online splenetic rage, repeated false accusations directed towards others, and juvenile temper tantrums. The Admins bent over backward to give her a fair shake, and for their trouble all they got was more horseshit shoveled their direction at nearly every turn. Enough was finally enough. Go peddle your fairy tale someplace else.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #428
478. My word for the day
"splenetic"

Cool.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #478
479. Of or relating to the spleen?
or I assume you mean definition #2 -- LOL :D

Dictionary.com

1. Of or relating to the spleen.
2. Affected or marked by ill humor or irritability.
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
85. Sorry for you guys
Earl, Elad and Skinner that it had to come to this. Sorry for Bev too that she just had to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she simply cannot control her wild imagination or her temper. Hope she gets some professional help. She's her own worst enemy.

Pretty sad day, but you did the right thing. Thanks, Guys.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #85
95. Ok
Let me show my stupidity. I heard that Bev Harris is Bush's cousin. Is this true?
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chimpy the poopthrower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #95
122. I don't think so.
There is another Duer who is a distant cousin of Bush - LynneSin, I believe?
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #122
129. ever see this site?
http://www.bushrelativesforkerry.com /

Some relatives of Bush (cousins)

(Bev isn't part of this)
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #129
160. Thanks for the link.
I didn't see any names of Bush's cousins on there. Just some links.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #122
159. Thanks for responding. I appreciate it.
I guess my post really was a stupid one since no one else responded! lol.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #95
168. LOL Now tha's a NEW one.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
97. The same scenario engulfed the founder of MADD
A very good cause, but somewhere along the way she confused her personal agenda with the agenda of the organization, and became somewhat of a prima donna. MADD eventually replaced her.

It's a double-edged sword. I hope Bev can stand back from herself, view the situation objectively, and move forward with a perspective which will benefit democracy. She is extremely talented and bright and has done all of us a tremendous service.

That being said, I feel a cloud has been lifted from DU. Thank you, Earl. Very fair and balanced summary :)
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #97
206. Nice post, Straight Shooter
I am a newbie, and, while I believe I have a fairly good handle on the Bev/DU connection (read archives and recent posts), I have been wondering what went wrong with Bev. She IS obviously bright, and she has done much good.

I, too, hope that Bev will "stand back from herself"...maybe this will be all that is needed for her to make some professional decisions to further her work.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

I hope so.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
98. this deserves a
Kick! :kick:
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
99. BEV IS NOT PERFECT. NO ONE IS. BUT SHE HAS DONE A LOT MORE GOOD THAN BAD.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:22 PM by TruthIsAll
No one is perfect. She may be a little hot-headed. So am I.

I am dissapointed to see this concerted effort to bring her down on DU, regardless of any disputes in the past.

HELL, I WAS BANNED ONCE ALSO. SO DOES THAT MEAN I'M NOT CREDIBLE?

I GOT PISSED OFF AT ANOTHER DUER WHO WAS A TROLL. I LET HIM HAVE IT AND FOR THIS I GOT BANNED. BUT MY INTENTIONS WERE ALWAYS GOOD. BY THE WAY, THAT TROLL WAS LATER BANNED FROM DU AFTER PISSING OFF SCORES OF OTHER DUERS.

Bev has made BBV a household word.

You should all be grateful.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. None of us deny that she's done a lot.
Not even the original poster of this thread.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #99
105. BBV Is far from a household word
Which is part of the problem.

No one denies she's done great work. It's her PR skills that are potentially HURTING the whole effort (and her OWN efforts). Good intentions aren't an excuse for unprofessional behavior.
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #105
149. Agreed. n/t
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #105
154. Once again. I agree.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 03:13 PM by saracat
Terrible PR skills. But having read her reply this morning to the film crew person, I think there is something else going on. How do you forget such a meeting? And then recall another one when pressed? Very weird. I wouldn't give her a dime. I haven't but I directed some of my wealthier friends to. They gave as a result of the results of the election and not knowing where to turn. I am beginning to think she may have preyed on our desperation.

BTW, Thanx for locating and posting that thread!
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #154
210. Saracat...I agree...n/t
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #99
109. So is Bev's Accountant
It's like closing time at a bar.
"You don't have to go home Bev, You just can't stay here"

If Bev is truly the Moses of this issue, let her cast her rod toward heaven and bring forth manna or strike the rock and bring forth water. According to her, she, ultimately, is the one that doesn't need DU and she has acted accordingly. Her work is not diminished one iota by being banned from DU. Her fund raising might take a hit, but in the end her much talked about "trash bag" and "poll tape" evidence will speak for itself. I wish her luck!!!!
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. Lovely analogy
:-)
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #109
186. Horrible analogy.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 04:07 PM by Stand and Fight
Bev Harris, while many things, is no where near the greatness of Moses to even invite even a comparitive analogy. Not one single iota near enough to be compared with those in history who have trumpeted transparency in freedom and put their own desires, egos, and ambitions aside for the greater good. I see no indication whatsoever of that here. There are such things as shameless self-promoters who do so without ever actually verbalizing it. Actions can speak louder than words, but actions speak infinitely louder when accompanied by harsh and irrational words.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #186
193. I agree
The way I have seen (from Bev's posts and elsewhere) Bev talk to people, especially those that disagree, is completely the wrong way to present yourself when you are representing something as important as she is. Some can say 'ahhh, but look who she's dealing with,