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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:31 PM
Original message
Statement on the Bev Harris situation
Over the past two years Bev Harris has received a great deal of support from the members of Democratic Underground, in her research, publicity efforts, and fundraising. In return we have played host to an 18 month-long squabble between Ms. Harris and other verified voting activists, and have even been threatened with lawuits by Ms. Harris herself. Despite this, we have publicly remained mostly silent on the verified voting squabbles.

We believe verified voting is a topic of crucial importance, and have been uncomfortable taking sides on an issue which, frankly, we should all be on the same side of anyway. Therefore we have kept most of our correspondence with the various factions private and attempted to cool things down behind the scenes. Like all issues discussed at DU, we have tried to focus the discussion of verified voting on the topic at hand, and not on the personalities of the participants. However, in light of the recent troubles, we feel compelled to make a statement.

In 2003 Bev Harris, along with a few other verified voting activists, were banned from DU for engaging in personal squabbles on the message board after they were repeatedly instructed to stop. Around that time, Ms. Harris threatened us with a libel lawsuit, claiming that we could be held responsible for comments made by other message board members who doubted the credibility of her project. She never followed through on this threat and we never heard from her lawyers.

Ms. Harris was reinstated shortly afterwards, after agreeing to put an end to the problems that got her banned in the first place. Nonetheless, those problems periodically recurred after her reinstatement. A few weeks ago, Ms. Harris again used our website to threaten DU with lawsuits, in her postings, in private messages to other members, and in rude alerts she sent to the moderators.

We sent a message to Ms. Harris telling her to stop hassling our moderators and members, and informing her that if she had a legal concern, she needed to contact us directly. We also let her know that her continued participation on this message board was dependent upon her behavior. The legal threats stopped, but we received no response from either Ms. Harris or her lawyers.

This is our personal experience with Ms. Harris. We cannot confirm or deny the veracity of claims made by others, including many former colleagues, her former publisher, and Keith Olbermann. But we can confirm that the claims made by others about Ms. Harris are not inconsistent with our own experiences.

We have remained as patient as possible in our dealings with Ms. Harris because we believe that the topic of verified voting is a crucial one. We were prepared to sacrifice a certain amount of tranquility on the message board if verified voting was being discussed in a generally positive manner.

Ms. Harris's recent spat with Keith Olbermann has made positive discussion of verified voting increasingly difficult on DU. For over a year and a half, our members have been split into pro- and anti-Bev factions, and recent events have only exacerbated that division. Yet this morning Ms. Harris returned to DU and started posting as if nothing had happened, while making liberal use of the alert button to complain to the moderators about our enforcement of the message board rules. At this point our patience finally ran out.

The fact that the disruptions have continued, despite repeated warnings from the administrators, leaves us with no other option but to bar Bev Harris from posting on this website. We no longer believe that it is productive to allow her to use DU as a platform to promote herself while simultaneously trashing us, our moderators, and others who have been previously supportive of her cause.

We still remain firmly committed to promoting discussion of verified voting, and we wish Ms. Harris well in her efforts to shed light on this important issue. From now on, we encourage all of our members to focus on discussing the verified voting issue itself, rather than the personalities involved.

-----------------

This thread will remain open until further notice. Again, we would like to remind everyone to take care to avoid personal attacks. Thank you for your continued cooperation.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. 12/03/04 is there any new info about the Bev BBV issue ?
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:40 PM by texpatriot2004
What's new with BH and KO today 12/03/04? Are they still in a pissing contest? Oops, I asked the question and then read the post above. I think DU did the right thing. I think they were very patient and ultimately had no choice. I think she did it to herself.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. No, that ended the same way
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:23 PM by plan9_pub
KO told her she was not welcome on his show. Bev dropped her threats on her site and tried to pretend none of it happened.

I expect we will see a lot more proxies for Bev in the future.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

edit: typo
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Oh, that's what the post above was referring to...that she
replied as if nothing happened. Gee, that's too bad.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
233. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #233
236. Please. Try reading the rest of the thread
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 05:26 PM by crispini
before you comment.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #233
252. You really should get all the facts
before posting.

I am a apalled that Markos and the DU moderators sit in front of their computers, within reach of their coffie, within easy driving distance (at least) of their beds, and trash Bev, who is OUT THERE, ON A LIMB, RISKING the WRATH of the IRS to PUBLISH here and at KOS.

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as Kos is concerned, but you seem woefully misinformed about Bev's contribution to this effort.

MANY people risked their financial health and their liberty pursuing this cause. Are you aware of this? Can you name any other them?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #252
485. That's exactly my problem with what's happened here.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 01:29 AM by aquart
Bev is the name out front.

Are there other people working on this? Quietly and with deep devotion to this cause? Yes.

But Bev is the name out front.

I've done a quick scan here. You're all right. Okay?

But the tactless showman, the Carrie Nation with the hatchet, is the name that goes in the history books. Were others working on prohibition? Yeah. But Carrie had the hatchet. DAMNED offensive, that hatchet. Woman had no tact and didn't know her place.

The name out front MUST take the extreme position. Why? Because no one reasons with the reasonable. Why not? They're so reasonable. Because you don't have to. Because a reasonable person can be talked out of anything. Look at Gore in 2000. Look at Bush. Bush was unreasonable and took office. Gore was reasonable and didn't.

The name out front must set the boundary and it needs to be far out. THEN the hard-working anonymous heroes step in and reason with the panicked other side. God, have NONE of you ever gone on strike?

The name out front HAS to be seen. HAS to upset people. HAS to cause uproar and ranting. Frothing at the mouth ranting. ONLY then will the other side begin to negotiate.

Hundreds, maybe thousands, won't get credit for the work they've done, but Bev and her irritating descent on LePore's undeserved party WILL be noted. It HAS been noted.

The FIRST obstruction to any change is the injunction to behave nicely. Don't rock the boat. Be polite. Don't upset people. Bev isn't behaving nicely.

From where I sit, that means she's doing her job.

The sad thing is that it's OUR mouths that are frothing, WE who are demanding she behave nicely. We're acting like the DLC. Like the RNC.

If we want this job done, we NEED her and her name out there, pissing people off. Bev is the target. Bev is, obviously, taking the hits.

She isn't harming the cause. The ones screaming "PLAY NICE!" are the ones who don't recognize that we NEED someone out there on the far edge.

I understand completely the Mods' position. The attack here the past few days was stunning and, I thought, well-orchestrated. It consumed the place. Bev is now out of DU.

My school history book had a cartoonist's illustration of wild-eyed Carrie Nation and her hatchet. I still remember it.






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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #485
540. I must disagree with part of your statement.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 09:42 AM by bearfartinthewoods
The person out front should be the level headed one who doesn't engage in the kind of stunts that garner the type of publicity as has been mentioned. The front person is the reasoned voice that puts out the facts, calmly and with clarity. The need is for credibility. The firebrands should not be in the lead.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #540
626. The firebrands carry the torch.
They light the way.

Samuel Adams, for instance. Marat.

The firebrands blaze the trail. They can't do that from the rear.

But, historically, their fate is almost always to be discarded and maligned by the movements they made possible.

Oh, lookee.
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RememberTheCoup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #626
630. most "firebrands" direct their fire at the opposition...
...not at those who are working for the same cause.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #630
651. And you can point to specific examples in history?
You know for a fact that other trailblazers were too pure for petty infighting? <Give me a minute. I have to stop laughing.>
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RememberTheCoup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #651
657. just common sense
If you want to argue that the traits of successful trailblazers include a tendency to turn on the very people trying to help them, go right ahead. Perhaps YOU should be the one citing examples. And I would not characterize Bev's actions as mere "infighting" -- she's caused a lot of harm to a lot of people. Since you are not one of her victims, I guess it's easy to trivialize.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #651
692. I'm a professional historian, and I can assure you that many...
leaders of grassroots efforts were not plagued with the types of mental illnesses that Ms. Harris has exhibited.

Firebrands who turn on their supporters assure their movements defeat. And I can name numerous of those.
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Higans Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #692
694. Mr. Historian, do you think the elections will ever be credible?
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 08:28 PM by Higans
i.e. Paper Ballots, independant auditing. or is our voice silenced for ever by the hackers?
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #694
696. I said that I am an historian, not a fortune teller.
My personal belief, as far as the future goes, is that Americans won't tolerate democracy being stolen from them by anyone.

I forsee paper opti-scan ballots, or at least paper receipts for computer voting. I prefer the former.

For the first half of the 19th century, the main argument among Americans was whether or not the founders had tried to steal true democracy from Americans through the implementation of the Constitution. So there is an historical precedent for what is going on now. We still have the constitution, but I doubt that unverifiable computer voting will be around in 20 years.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #694
746. Mr. "Higans," do you think you could be any more...
...obvious as a pinch-hitter for a fraud like Bev Harris?
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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #692
711. Historian or psychiatrist? Mental illness? I really do not know what to
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 11:02 PM by Sperk
beleive anymore....Every post I have ever seen of Bev's (including on her own site) sound extremely reasonable. I'm trying to keep an open mind because you and others have made comments about terrible confrontations with her although I don't know specifically what they were. You and others don't seem to be handling them very professionally either.

For example, I read many, many of your posts and I know HOW you feel about her, I read many a name calling posts but I still don't know what she did that turned you against her. The gist seems to be that she wants to have all the lime light. If so...why not let her...there are bigger issues here. Do you see what I'm saying? We all want the fraud issue brought forward and I think going against her PUBLICLY is very damanging.....the evilduers will use it against us in the end.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #711
744. Blah, blah, blah - bleh - blah, blah...
...yet still more predictable horseshit from the professional Bev Bots... :eyes:
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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #485
710. I agree 100% with you....we've been screaming for 4 years for the
Dems to STOP being so passive....so NICE!!!! I think Bev is doing a great job and the fact that Olberman would cut her off without ever talking directly to her, tells me the fix was in.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #485
739. Carrie Nation was a bug-eyed puritan fanatic...
...who helped spawn the silliest amendment to our Constitution ever. Prohibition was later, thankfully, repealed, thanks to liberals I steadfastly admire like FDR. If Carrie Nation were alive and out & about today, she'd be Jerry Falwell's biggest fan, and a regular poster over at Free Republic. Odd indeed is your choice of role models...

Despite that, the analogy still doesn't quite fit: Carrie Nation truly believed in the principles that animated her ridiculous crusade; your hero Bev, on the other hand, is little more than a crude charlatan and increasingly transparent con artist. She hurts the cause she presumes to speak for far more than she helps it. At least Ms. Nation had something to show for her efforts - the quixotic and now long-repealed 18th amendment. All Saint Beverly has is a lengthening trail of burned bridges, shattered relationships, and ugly encounters with just about everybody she comes into contact with. And zero credibility, as has been proven over and over and over and over again.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #233
258. "The Baby?" Yes, I would agree that Bev's temperament has been...
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 06:01 PM by Maddy McCall
quite immature.

But BBV is not Bev's baby. It belongs to all of the activists who began the BBV efforts, who contributed in vast ways to the BBV book, who funded her dubious trips around the U.S.

Just because "the baby" is gone does not mean that the bathwater has been drained. Perhaps MORE will get accomplished, now that the most divisive figure ever at DU is out of the way. The true activists in this movement will continue their efforts, of that I have no doubt.

Beware the charlatans.

Links from one of the many Bev controversies at DU:

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And there are links within links. Read them all and come back to discuss this. I'll be waiting.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #258
437. The lawsuit threats did it for me. :(
No one should threaten to sue as a first recourse over something so trivial. It was freaking me out because I want to help with the possible election fraud issue, yet I felt uneasy about Ms. Harris.

Now that she's been banned, I feel better. I may be able to get myself in gear to help with this again.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #233
268. Go to the archives...
Go to the DU archives, do the research, take in all the information, and then form your opinion before you attack the founders and moderators or other DU members. Nothing is worse than the unfounded, ill-formed, and hot-headed opinion. You'd do yourself great service by reviewing the roots of this thread. You'd do us all a great service by being fair and balanced in your replies to what is a very reasonable approach to a very volatile situation.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
67. "focus on discussing the verified voting issue" Amen! Principles over per
sonalities!
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #67
91. Hey, I have heard that saying before elsewhere, not here.
Look, I apologize if I offended you. I thought this thread was a continuation of the other. I made a mistake. I was just looking to find out what happened regarding this issue.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
161. I agree...
Bev has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that voting systems, including the extremely important Diebold central tabulators, can be easily hacked. Anyone who has seen the recent movie posted on the internet featuring her (Votergate the Movie) can see a demo of how this is done. (Basically it involves opening a GEMs database file into MS Access -- notice the MS, as in MSNBC?)

Anyway, I feel that Bev has pretty much accomplished the main part of her task, now it is up to others to continue the work of investigating the recent election to see how such corruption was put into action and how far it went in fixing the election results.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
631. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RememberTheCoup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #631
646. You obviously haven't read the background links.
You have it backwards. Bev is the one who has been doing the attacking -- attacking people who are "helping our side". But I suggest you read the background links in this thread first.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #646
683. From what I saw this week, it looked as if she was under major attack
The trouble is that her real name was used in these attacks. If you post something, using a real person's real name, you better make sure that it is not false and malicious.

I can understand why she was concerned - just based on the seeming groundless attacks I've seen against her. Most people would be outraged if a group they were trying to help allowed people to present false attacks against them. I think any other Democratic leader in her position would have reacted in the same way.

A lot of people may not know the good she has done. If this election is overturned, it will be 90% or more her doing.

No voters registration information is required for DU. Groups like Democrats.com work to make sure that their members are not Republicans. Maybe the DU might want to require more information when it signs up new members. It's odd that after all the information about all the DU postings of voter fraud made the news, we had an increase in members and attacks on Democrats and those trying to overturn the election. Maybe there's a connection.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #683
684. You've Got To Be Kidding
"If this election is overturned, it will be 90% or more her doing"

That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this almost 700 post thread yet...
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #684
686. Watch her interview with Dean or "Invisible Ballots" or check on her
post-election work and the freedom of information requests she filed. This woman is working her tail off while the DNC is sitting around and pretending Bush won.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #686
689. I'll give her 2% Credit, Nothing More. 90% is Mass Delusional
And that 2% is the best estimate figure from REALITY, a true legally document IQ certified Genius, rather then merely a moniker.

:)
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Constitution Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #689
697. And what are you doing to prove Bush cheated?
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #697
699. Everything In My Power
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 09:13 PM by IAMREALITY
(but don't worry, I won't ask you for money to help and will continue to provide any evidence for FREE without DELAY as soon as I come across it, and won't threaten you with a lawsuit if you say something I don't like. You have my word)
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #631
654. Sorry, I'm a personal responsibility type of perrson
Bev is the root cause of Bev's problems.

Blaming it on Republicans is as bad as Republicans blaming everything bad on homosexuals.
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msgadget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wow. (eom)
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. My exact thoughts too.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Earl, Incredible Post!
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:37 PM by IAMREALITY
I am extremellllllly relieved to find that the top of DU is this objective and that my personal beliefs on the situation were not in fact as far off center of DU culture as I feared.

I have always believed that trouble makers, regardless of righteous convictions, are still counter-productive.


I do firmly support Bev's mission, as I agree we all should, but I do not condone that attacking anybody aas she consistently has done is ever productive to ANY cause.

Thank you for putting some 'REALITY' on this subject.
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
227. Content, but no delivery. Just as I suspected.
I wondered why there was so much activity--dozens of lawsuits, press releases, etc.--but no real traction or breakthroughs in local or federal courts or in the court of public opinion. I donated to BBV because I believe in the project, but I have been wondering if they are managed by the emotion/anger of the cause rather than a sensible, credible plan. Bev's pprobably amazingly overwelmed in this high stakes game and has lost some composure.

Has anyone else wondered why Bev just doesn't seduce many people into "believing" despite having a tremendously compelling cause? I think she is on solid ground in asserting that these voting machines cheat voters and candidates, and I know this is of interest to most Americans, press included. Where are the breakthroughs in garnering support?

It seems that Bev has problems getting along with others. She seems like someone whose anger needs containment so that her credibility and the credibility of the cause can be where it needs to be at such an important time in history. If she comes across looking like a loose cannon, then the merits of her--and OUR--cause get dismissed.

Good speakers have to present well in addition to being organized and having good material. It looks like Bev just has the material, and that BBV needs a new face to their cause.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #227
234. Bar none, this is the BEST POST on this topic ever.
Excellent and insightful. :thumbsup:
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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #234
714. Is there any documenation of this ANGER....I'm not saying I don't believe
you but it's like the WMD....not much evidence to condemn someone on. Even if she's a hothead off the record...that's not the same thing as doing it publicly. Many people are hot heads off the record.

Seems to me her biggest offense is theatening too many lawsuits...maybe it's just her way of saying..."Hey, guys, I'm not kidding!"

I'm not making any judgements about the Mods cutting her..it's their website and their call and we can always check her site out if we want....I guess I'm trying to say....I see A LOT of smoke (mostly name calling) and NO FIRE.
:shrug:
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #227
257. Fair enough.
The attitude expressed here is fairly even handed, so I have no complaints to raise.

The mods gotta do what they gotta do to maintain order...
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #227
359. Not to sound PolyAnna, But...
Uncontroled emotions, especially anger, can be a sign of a nutritional diffeciency. Lots of vitamins and minerals control moods. I used to lose my temper a lot. Now I eat a lot better, and I take some great vitamins. It DOES make a difference.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #227
558. How many people would even know the terms "blackbox voting"
or "verified-voting" if not for Bev Harris?

You're criticizing her because everyone isn't aware of these issues?

Compare the number who know about these issues now to the number who did in 2002.


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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #558
590. I agree with you to some extent and appreciate what she's done.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 01:14 PM by joeunderdog
But for a cause that is so universally important--even to honest Republicans--I am disappointed about missed, crucial opportunities for this historic moment in time. The Oberman thing is a big PR blunder, and dissing DU and its constructive criticism is a mistake that we can't afford right now.

To be fair, Bev has had to be cautious of spies and sabateurs and even her own safety, so her guarded approach to trusting "helpers" is understandable. She clearly needs to hire the right people to help with this. But I worry that she has lost the ability to recognize supports and accept help--necessary elements of taking this to the next level. "Me against the world" isn't getting it done.

She went into this like a child star who stumbled onto a radio hit, and needs a new manager now that she is on the big stage. The Game is now On. Unfortunately, her weakness is in not recognizing and using constructive resources available to her.

And we are losing in the most important court...the court of public opinion.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #590
641. Republicans aren't worried because they own the voting machine companies.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 04:45 PM by Eric J in MN
That isn't Bev's fault.

Sequioa is for sale. A Democrat should buy it. Then Republicans would oppose blackbox voting.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #590
662. No spies
To be fair, Bev has had to be cautious of spies and sabateurs and even her own safety, so her guarded approach to trusting "helpers" is understandable. She clearly needs to hire the right people to help with this. But I worry that she has lost the ability to recognize supports and accept help--necessary elements of taking this to the next level. "Me against the world" isn't getting it done.

I'm sorry, I just don't by her claims. I have seen no spys, no sabotuers, only Bev's paranoia. The only hacking incident I am aware of was a script-kiddie who took down the .com site last Fall.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #662
695. Good leaders have to trust people to make the movement broad...
and acceptible to the grassroots. IF they don't, the movement will die in infancy.

Bev's two paranoid flaws are paranoia and narcissism. Those are the two most lethal flaws a movement leader can possess, as far as sabotaging a movement.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #558
664. Hmmm....
My knowledge of black box voting emerged as a result of talking to someone who told me about this website about a year ago. I've been lurking since then, but that is where I learned about the nefarious system of black box voting.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
291. The bottom line here is that it should be about voting and not about
personalities. Which I totally agree with in this situation. I'm just sad that this episode will overshadow all that we've brought to light in the last month.
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. Works for me.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:36 PM by Goldmund
But how come I can't find her tombstone?

Edit: Nevermind, I found it...
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Original message
Are you serious?
Tombstoned isn't just a term but an actual moniker given to somebody banned?

How do I view that? (if that is the case and I'm not just missing somethin)
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
31. It's when you click on their profile. n/t
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
45. Here
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. That is just Too Goddam funny!
Thank you both for that. I had no idea getting tombstoned was more than just symbolic!

DU is awesome. I love that graphic!
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
108. DU is so awesome it is vital we protect it's integrity.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:29 PM by SomthingsGotaGive
Thank you for listening everyone this has been a tough time for us all.

Now lets kick some ass.

Great job DU Admin.

I will now drop this subject!
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #108
244. YOU ARE 1,000,000% RIGHT
Protecting the integrity of DU should be our priority.
It is our best forum to discuss issues with eachother- and get the word out.
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regularjoe Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
163. It says "He Disrupted....Poorly". Maybe we need "She Disrupted poorly" n/t
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. It is sad that it has come to this....
:-(
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MadAsHellNewYorker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. my feelings exactly )c: n/t
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Two bridges burned in two days
Quite an achievement.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. 2 - No one bridge burned. n/t
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
144. After you have burned all the bridges....your left on an island
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. Where will she go to publicize her findings now?
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Her website? n/t
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Will MSM take her website seriously?
I hope so!
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. The website...
It will either sink or swim on its own merits, I imagine
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
96. She spent more time at DU than at her own website.
:shrug:
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #96
119. I know
I guess that will be changing soon.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good decision
Lending unquestioning support to an egotistical PR personality is never a good idea.
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meisje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. Some people just do not work well with others
Too bad really, where would she be without DU?
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Earl, we haven't "met" on the boards...
but I just want to commend you for trying to remain objective, and for handling whatever has transpired (obviously a lot of it long before I got here) in a professional way.

Keep up the great work.
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Left Brain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
150. I'd like to add to that.
As a newbie, it really helps to have the background information. Thank you for posting it, AdminEarl.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you very much.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM by Melinda
As one who spent hundreds of hours doing legal research for BBV during the years 2002 and 2003, I too am appalled by the events over the course of the last 18 months.

Many of us feel very used. More important, many of us are hurt and angered that this issue has been reduced to ego.

Thank you for this.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. (sigh of relief)
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. And the axe came down. Looks like it had to be done. Sad situation n/t
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 01:39 PM by Pepper32
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. "Use DU" was certainly the right term
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. thank you for addressing the issue with us...
I take no sides and respect your decisions.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. Going forward: how can we de-monopolize this issue?
Other people have pointed out that it's unfortunate - and surprising, actually - that this huge issue was pretty much tended to by one organization led by one strong personality and just a handful of staff. How would you all suggest that we proceed - should we try to lobby a more established and accountable group or groups to take on this issue?
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. May not answer your question,
But right now I find the news that the House Judiciary Committee (albeit the Dem branch) sent a 15 page amazing detailed letter to Katherine Blackwell, and are scheduling public hearings on fraud/iregularities, extremely encouraging/exciting. This paired with the rising each day focus on Ohio are now my strongest hopes for all this.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
64. Where is this letter, please? The link provided would not open for me.
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
339. letter from members of Congress to Blackwell
http://www.spidel.net/ohblackwellltr12204.pdf
14 page letter


December 2, 2004

Letter to Kenneth Blackwell
Ohio Secretary of State


BRIEF EXCERPT
Spoiled Ballots

According to post election canvassing, many ballots were cast without any valid selection for president. For example, two precincts in Montgomery County had an undervote rate of over 25% each -- accounting for nearly 6,000 voters who stood in line to vote, but purportedly declined to vote for president. 33 This is in stark contrast to the 2% of undervoting county-wide.34 Disturbingly, predominantly Democratic precincts had 75% more undervotes than those that were predominantly Republican.35 It is inconceivable to us that such a large number of people supposedly did not have a preference for president in such a controversial and highly contested election.

Considering that an estimated 93,000 ballots were spoiled across Ohio,36 we would like to know the following:

11. How many of those spoiled ballots were of the punch card or optical scan format and could therefore be examined in a recount?

12. Of those votes that have a paper trail, how many votes for president were undercounted, or showed no preference for president? How many were overcounted, or selected more than one candidate for president? How many other ballots had an indeteminate preference?

13. Of the total 93,000 spoiled ballots, how many were from predominantly Democratic precincts? How many were from minority-majority precincts?

14. Are you taking steps to ensure that there will be a paper trail for all votes before the 2006 elections so that spoiled ballots can be individually re-examined?

....

If you have any questions about this inquiry, please contact Perry Apelbaum or Ted Kalo of the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff at (202) 225-6504

Signed,
John Conyers
Tammy Baldwin
Jerrold Nadler
Melvin Watt
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beets Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #339
609. Enforce that those crucial questions be answered!
That congressional letter was dated thurday 12-2. There are no outstanding names among those who signed it. Prediction: Mr. Blackwell ignores it because he will address nothing unless his feet are to the fire and a higher court forces him to answer. Result: Waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, Kerry had better get a backbone soon, if not, he may not get anything above local dogcatcher in '08. It's been 12 years since the dems had anything resembling a pleasant surprise.
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
228. Hear, hear! The letters are one of the best things to happen

since the Selection!
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BlueWolff Donating Member (337 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Unfortunate
I have been a supporter and find this unfortunate...I see now that unless Bev changes her ways and shows PROOF ...N O W ...that she is on the up and up..she risks much work by many being dumped into the annals of conspiracy..We ALL know that not to be true..you can be crazy but you have to back it up with PROOF...SHOW THE TAPES NOW BEV...My friends and I have contributed lots of money and I am really upset at her!!!
**********To the DU staff...from now on PLEASE let us know of problems like this so we can make better judgements on WHERE to put our hard earned money...
Thanks
Blue Wolff
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
101. There ARE other groups
I've got links to a number of them at blackboxvoting.com, which since emails have just started to come in, I wish to clarify a few points about:

1) I am not interested in taking up from Bev (never was). I have been pretty badly mangled on the periphery of the issue and have no desire to move to the center.

2) I prefer to keep my site a news site to help guide people to other groups and resources and keep them abreast of the news.

3) I am not interested in raising money and do not want to open that Pandora's Box. I am one person and will just muddle along as I can. If you want to help, I can use some folks to help me keep news and links up to date. At some point I would like to shift the site to a different software package which would allow cooperative posting of news story's like the LBN forum here at DU.

(That said, if some rich and generous soul wants to come invest in my publishing company and bring more humor to the world, let's talk. <G> ;)

4) As to what folks can do, I offer a short term and a long term suggestion:

Short term: Focus on a few locations, not multi-state shotgun attacks. We are too few, our money too scant for such an attack to work. Ohio and Florida seem to have problems, but Ohio now has the House Judiciary Committee asking questions and seems to me the logical target. This means GET OUT ON THE STREETS IN OHIO. If a handful of GOP thugs were able to thwart a legitimate recount WHY can't we get people to protest for a legitimate recount? And let's not shoot for a handful, lets shoot for 10,000+. That will bring the cameras running, as it did for the GOP in 2000.

Long term: It's a local issue. Annoy the hell out of your election officials, but take a lesson from Bev's flame out. Be polite, but annoying. Don't run in making wild claims and warning of conspiracies no matter how much you believe them to be true. Stick to the facts:

ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES ARE INSECURE AND INACCURATE AND MUST BE REPLACED WITH A SYSTEM THE VOTERS BELIEVE IN AND RESPECT!!

The reason you harp on this is because we have tons of HARD PROOF to back it up. Write letters, call in to local talk shows, haunt civic groups and churches. This is very much a local issue were people DO make a difference.

4) I am committed to working on this problem in my home state (NC) and will continue with those efforts. My fellow North Carolinians are welcome to make a nuisance of themselves with me.

David Allen
www.plan9.org
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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DemOperative Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #101
208. Just wanted to add a contact
http://www.verifiedvoting.org .

Have LOTS of folks who spun off from Bev when they saw a problem nearly a year ago.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #208
246. Good group
which I feel chagrined for not linking to. I am WAY behind on site maintenance.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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Quick n Low Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #246
458. Don't forget VotersUnite.org
Which is run by two former members of VerifiedVoting and a former admin from BBV.

Some of the best work out there, hands down.

Check out the Myth Breakers document they compiled:

http://www.votersunite.org/takeaction/mythbreakers.pdf

Keep up the good work David!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
254. LoZoccolo, I think you've hit on an important issue that applies elsewhere
It behooves DUers to insure that when issues are uncovered in the future, they are not allowed to devolve into a cult of personality. I think that if we looked into several issues over the past few decades, many of the failures on the left have been related to this issue.

I don't know how we overcome this issue as ego becomes an issue for any person put into the spotlight. We should be cognizant of the fact that this is a problem that can occur in any investigation and work to insure nothing gets monopolized.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #254
270. important issue Walt
Why does it have to always be either hero or villain, to be worshiped or destroyed? Why not healthy skepticism and open-mindedness?

No leader will ever do and say each and every thing to each and every person's complete satisfaction. Expecting this of our leaders puts a burden on them that not only prevents many leaders from stepping forward, but it makes it difficult for them to be effective when they do. This also divides the community in bitter and unnecessary ways.

I can't think of one liberal or progressive leader who has not alternately been treated as either the second coming or the devil incarnate here, often on the most flimsy and superficial evidence.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #254
331. Walt, that's a very important point.
Here on DU, the admins and mods do a great job containing this exact issue. Their responses and decisions are even-handed and thoughtful. They do not allow egos to run rampant

The Democratic Party could do well to follow the leadership model here at DU. So could all of us who are liberals, progressives, lefties, greens, or whatever we call ourselves.

On the whole, the Democratic Party is mostly averse to following leaders. That is one reason why that other party has been able to fool half of America into following them, even though their policies harm the majority in order to enrich the very few.

We need to rethink our teamwork model, imo.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. Although I applaud the patience of the administration
It might have been better as an announcement rather than a thread.

Just a suggestion.

In the end, this whole brouhaha is quite scary to see. Herding cats indeed.

Alas for Democracy.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
72. It Would Have Become a Thread Anyway
Hell, it would have become a dozen threads. At least this way, there is one centralized place for discussion, which is one of the fundamental tenets of this board.

I applaud and support Admin's decision.

DTH
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
20. Gee Earl...
...ya shoulda been a lawyer! You guys do a great job managing this very busy site. I haven't kept up with all the pissing and moaning vis a vis Bev Harris, but I trust your judgement - it seems solid, given the background of the issue.

Rock on...

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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for filling in some of the background for those of us who are
still relatively new here. It sounds like you made the right decision!
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. What hope is there
if we continue to engage in pissing contests rather than work constructively and together towards common goals. Not that I am not guilty of lack of patience on occasion (well maybe too frequently) but the left has a long and checkered history of fragmentation and ego driven brawling.

It is noteworthy to see how the various factions on the right have put aside differences to achieve goals......
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Original message
An excellent decision, EarlG.
:thumbsup:
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Darknyte7 Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. Damn shame, but it sounds like a reasonable & defensible position...

I realize I'm a newbie, but I truly hope we can move on from this.
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billie_ Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sad that we cannot all work together :( n/t
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
703. Especially during such fragile times : ( n/t
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november3rd Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. dirty laundry
couldn't you have just barred her without making a public announcement? What difference do the details make now?
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Sometimes there is a certain amount of truth to be found in dirty laundry
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Feathered Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Rumours run rampant 'round here
better that it's discussed by admin instead of DUers who only know 1/2 the story.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Well Since you only have 29 posts I can see why you might not understand
This was an extremely heated issue which garnished some realllly strong opinions between DU'rs. A statement in 'public' like this was absolutely necessary since this issue had grown so large. I applaud them completely in their handling of this.

Welcome to DU! :hi:
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Winamericaback Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Because
Her staunch supporters would pretty much start flaming the admins for banning her without knowing the reason.

Also its their site, if they want to let us know why then they can :)
Its an open community, I think they shared the info with respect to that.
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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. Typically we do not discuss why DU members are banned
and it is our preference not to. However, this is an atypical situation. We felt that it was important for everyone to understand why we have made this decision.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
79. Thank you , I appreciate your being open with us so much.
As a relatively new member, who has not been following the original postings from Ms. Harris here (did see the most recent I'll sue you exchange though), I was alarmed that her position as a self-proclaimed spokesperson for this cause was doing more harm than good. I just hope she hasn't done too much damage already, or potentially could do more. I think some of what she's done is important work, I just hope she has the sense to get someone more amenable (and stable) to be the pr person for BBV, otherwise its credibility will devolve further. If she does have good evidence of fraud in Florida, I hope she can figure out a way to get it out there without stomping on any more toes in the process.
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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #79
483. I'm glad, too...
Cuz coming to DU and seeing SO many threads either started because of or highjacked by the fight was getting on my nerves...no matter what parties were involved. Weeding thru/scrolling past them was a pain in the ass.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
153. Bev has made herself a 'public' figure
She is no longer just another anonymous poster.

The only thing I don't understand is how does she have so much time to harass people here, when she's suppose to be up to her ears in this voter fraud stuff? No wonder she missed the deadline for filing that lawsuit in FL.

Unfortunately, Bev has allowed herself to become the story and a good investigator always tries to avoid that.

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #153
180. I was wondering the same DYEW...
time is of the essence now. Or so I was told.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
46. Peddle it elsewhere. This isn't the time or appropriate thread for it.
(n/t)
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TruthOutDawg Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. Actually I REALLY appreciate it!
I've had my concerns based on stunts like that retirement party "service" of LaPore and other communications from BH and I've given money to BBV.org but I've been somewhat uncomfortable with that decision and torn between giving money to BBV.org and other groups like verifiedvoting so I found this really helpful. For the most part, those of us on this site don't have a single dime to spare and it's really important that we make the best decisions about who to support and how to support them. THANK YOU DU for trying as hard as you did and for making the hard decisions AND for the transparency of process!!!!!
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
349. Resources for Recount
A beginning of a list of some of the organizations currently involved in recounting and protecting the vote.....

RESOURCES FOR RECOUNT

The Alliance for Democracy -- The organization was founded by journalist Ronnie Dugger, who wrote one of the first major pieces warning of voting machine flaws, in 1988. Cliff Arnebeck is also a leader in this organization -- he's a litigant in the contest of elections in Ohio. http://www.thealliancefordemocracy.org /

C.A.S.E. -- Citizens' Alliance for Secure Elections http://www.caseohio.org

Green Party -- The Greens and Libertarians raised over $200,000 to run the Ohio recount -- still raising money and helping mobilize possibly 2500 volunteers needed in Ohio. Now calling for recount in NM and NV. www.votecobb.org

Libertarian Party -- www.badnarik.org

Nader -- calling for a partial recount in NH raising funds www.votenader.org Kevin Zeese, Campaign Spokesperson (202) 265-4000

Black Box Voting.org -- www.blackboxvoting.org Bev Harris & crew doing multi-state audit and forensic work on elections, currently investigating counties in Florida

Help America Recount -- a 527 working with the National Ballot Integrity Project and BlackBoxVoting.org to raise funds for recounts, audits and court challenges in Florida & fraud audits in New Mexico and Nevada. www.helpamericarecount.org

Voters Unite -- www.votersunite.org has a growing collection of over 380 articles on voting anomalies in the November 2004 election. Also, a map of where these happened in the US.

Evidence of Possible Election Fraud -- a nice compendium of sources http://shadowbox.i8.com//stolen.htm

Common Cause Ohio -- part of recount effort in Ohio (614)-224-2497 www.commoncause-ohio.org/ccause/home.htm commoncauseohio@aol.com

Votergate -- 30 Minute video, free online, of voting anomalies, etc. -- needs money to continue to investigate and make a longer film. http://www.votergate.tv

Votewatch -- http://www.votewatch.us wants $250,000 to do a professional statistical analysis of the election which can be used as hard evidence of fraud

Verified Voting.org -- www.verifiedvoting.org

Stolen Election 2004 -- current list of protests etc. http://stolenelection2004.com/demos.html

True Majority -- www.truemajority.org founded by Ben of Ben & Jerry's fame

Electronic Freedom Foundation -- www.eff.org moving under the Open Records Act, which allows people to see government records, to gather information, including the impoundment of voting machines, in some counties in Florida, Ohio, New Mexico and Pennsylvania that had serious problems with the machines. Local counsel are needed to help with this effort. Contact Cindy Cohn at cindy@eff.org

N.C. Coalition for Verifiable Voting -- www.ncvoter.net

Election Protection Coalition -- http://www.electionprotection2004.org Multicultural coalition of dozens of organizations. Over 15,000 problems reported to their hotline on election day; over 25,000 volunteers mobilized. Note collection of stories at http://www.electionprotection2004.org/edaynews.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Other states' groups:

California Voter Foundation http://www.calvoter.org /
Georgia www.countthevote.org
Texas Safe Voting http://www.safevoting.org
~~~~~~~~~~~


Secretary of State of Ohio, Ken Blackwell, Republican www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/ General Telephone Number (Toll Free): 1-877-767-6446

GAO - contact, support thorough investigation of election machinery, processes: http://www.gao.gov/fraudnet/fraudnet.htm

Congressman Rush Holt wrote HR 2239 for voter verified paper ballot, also has a site on voting http://www.counteveryvote.org /

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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
176. I think this was the best way to approach this issue
Many of us would have been wondering what happened, and the moderators would have been plagued with a lot of questions to that effect.

I think this was handled appropriately, and with great wisdom.

:yourock:
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
253. The High Road
I think Earl did a GREAT job of communicating- bluntly & to the point- WHY the decision was made.

He was right to do so- having Bev banned WITHOUT explanation would have opened another can of worms as people started making wild accusations. DU doesnt need to be defiled with wild accusations.
He was honest and upfront- something I think most of us agree is the best way to conduct business.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
687. lots of us, like me, have followed some of this and have become
confused and upset over what's going on

it's helpful to have one coherent summary from one viewpoint (DU's)

and why oh why can't democrats dump egos and work together instead of spending so much time and energy fighting with each other????
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
32. good decision
it was primarily a one way relationship from what I can tell benefitting her and BBV
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
36. I applaud the fairness and objectivity of the Admins...
...you put up with the disruptions from that quarter far longer than I would have - and did so with patience and grace. Now, finally, perhaps some semblance of peace can return to the threads where this topic is an ongoing discussion.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
37. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Admin.
You have handled this difficult situation with great tact and cool-headedness.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
188. agreed.
I was uncertain where to fall on this issue, and then decided I didn't need to...I applaud the level headed management here
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
394. I'm a newbie, but lurked a long time
It's too bad Bev "doesn't play well with others," but the DU Admin. did indeed handle the whole thing with patience and tact.
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Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
423. Well, done, moderator, and best of luck to Bev
I think the original post was very well written. I'm sorry that divisiveness has entered the DU world. Perhaps one day we'll move past it.

I appreciate your clear communication to us. This is not about being pro or con Bev. It's about having constructive discussion.

Thanks.
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Razorback_Democrat Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
38. Good decision, now let's move on!
get back to cracking the election fraud!!!!!!

get away from distractions like "who's telling the truth" etc. etc.

Thanks Earl!
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Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
39. Price of responsibility
I have the greatest respect for those who pay the emotional toll of moderating a political forum during such a volatile time.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Original message
We here in the Maat household support you fully, EarlG!
DU has provided invaluable emotional support, an outlet for my progressive views, and has been a catalyst for progressive networking and org. growth. I appreciate your work and am a proud donor!

Sorry that it came to this, but your post was very well-written. I intend to support voting system auditing, monitoring, and improvement efforts. There are many good ways to do this, however.
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spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
41. There was so much fighting going on that I was afraid to ask
how releasing the information about the tapes would tip the hand of the offenders in Florida? They knew how they cheated, assuming they did, they had another copy of the tape to study for differences so it didn't follow to me that releasing the information publicly would do anything harmful to her effort.

It seemed that the release would be entirely beneficial, thousands of heads to analyze the data, as well as lending her much needed credibility.

This was a good decision on the part of the moderators although I feel bad for Bev and her supporters, the fighting just had to stop.
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
44. Does anybody have Bev Harris' birth date information?
As long as we are in the mode of "looking at Bev" one way or the other...

I have been a practicing astrologer for many years and had done searches for Ms Harris' birthdata on the internet with no success in these past weeks. I'm not interested in anything other than just her birth date(if you have anything else, such as place or time of birth that would be great, but it's not necessary). I'd be curious to know what sort of planetary problems she is dealing with.

I can surely understand DU's position, and also feel you have done very well to maintain your objectivity...just as a wise parent. Sometimes you must go for the "tough love" aspect.

Thanks for any info.

JD
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:58 PM
Original message
Perhaps that, her social security number and major credit cards would
give a better reading.

Apologies if you are sincere, but I find asking for someone's personal info on a political forum to be very inappropriate and would hope even if someone HAD the info they would not tell you.
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Razorback_Democrat Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
63. No kidding
that would be inappropriate for any reason

astrologer?
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
69. Good Lord, you can go to just about any astro site on the web,
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:15 PM by JD Lau
especially Lois Rodden's and get personal data for ANY public
figure. Try it yourself. I have both Eliz Edwards and John Edwards charts, Kerry's chart...Gore's chart.

If you think this is inappropriate, then fine. Guess I'll just keep looking elsewhere...

I'll post the URL for Rodden's site and you can see for yourself, just what data is available for personal research. Just as voting records are available.....


Here's the Rodden site URL...Astrodatabank.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/Links.htm

Check out your favorite "famous people"

Yes, this is a sidenote and a monumental waste of energy, but for those of us wondering about the dynamics of the continuing election process, Ms. Harris' info would make a nice counter to all I have regarding Bush and Cheney.

Nevermind. Energy better turned in many other directions.

JD
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. LOL
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CyberChas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
68. How about sleep deprivation and stress?
That can make a person a bit "gritchy" as well.

Charlie Levenson
Portland, Oregon
CLL2001@Gmail.com
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #68
80. Yeah, but different people handle stress and sleep depriviation
in different ways. I, personally, don't know all that many people that threaten lawsuits when sleep deprived. ;)
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
374. Sounds like a uranus transit, almost.
Geez, louise! All he wants is her date, time and place of birth. He/she doesn't care about anything else, just those numbers. You'd think he was asking for really personal information, or something. Calm down.

JD, email her and ask her. She'll probably tell you.
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
409. I hear you
You can't help but wonder. Some Mars/Mercury/Pluto issues? Where's the Leo...and so on.
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sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #409
720. I was really getting Scorpio and Pluto issues ...
maybe combined with a strong Saturn placement which would explain the control issues. Of course it could be an eight house Leo sun as well and we may both be right lol.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
48. Thank you Earl.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:00 PM by saracat
This was a wise and thoughtful decision. You are to be commended for your patience. You have taken a stand for the protection not only of the crediblity od DU. But the credeibility of the Voter fraud issue in general.I am sure this will go a long way to rebuilding confidence in this issue. Thank you again. You guys rock! :yourock:
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JoMama49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
49. Are you sure it's the real Bev Harris

Or Karl Rove in drag?
JoMama.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Karl Rove in Drag -- *shudder* -- LOL n/t
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #55
110. karl in drag..... doesn't look a bit like Bev!
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #110
121. LMFAO
It's Barbara Rove :D
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #110
184. This is hysterical...LOL!!
Thank you for making me laugh!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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DemOperative Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #110
214. yes..but add the right wig!!
That's a horse of a different color

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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. They have her IP adress.
They know things you and I don't.

Bev crucified herself. DU admin nor Rove didn't have to do it for her.
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Dolphyn Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. I was wondering that too.
With everything she's doing in Florida, it's hard to believe that she'd have time to sit around flagging messages at DU ...
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
86. Without DU, she wouldn't be doing ANYTHING in Florida.
DU was Bev's springboard and remained her greatest avenue to solicit. (She even solicited TODAY on DU!)

Now she has no DU.
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
187. Maddy...I noticed this too
I contributed to her site after the election, and, while I did not take an active role in the discussions about KO and Bev, I was thinking that, as a donor, I, as well as all other donors, deserved some evidence of the fruits of our donations.

And, I noticed that she talked about additional expenses today...and requested more donations. I wondered about this as we hadn't really seen any evidence that our money was really at work.

I believe in this cause, but I am not sure that it is being well-served by Bev and her group.

I feel used. But, as they say, "live and learn"...

:-)
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #187
372. Used
and probably the last short term hope dashed to the rocks. A hope that there could be redemption for this country. We may have turned the corner now. And there may be no return in the foreseeable future.
Looks like a mighty long road ahead.
Yea, Used!
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jmatthan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
51. Another win for the repugs in the divide and rule philosophy

Sad, but that seems to be what American democracy is about - handing victory to the opponent.

Just by the way, unlike most of you I did not hear about Bev Harris and BBV from DU - it was through talk show hosts Mike Malloy, Thom Hartmann, Peter Werbe and Mike Webb.

Do recall what I wrote about ego!!!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu Finland
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Bev wouldn't have been on Malloy or any other media forum
without DU. Period.
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jmatthan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
92. Sorry, but I have heard a lot of

people on these shows which have NEVER been featured on the DU forum (during my time here).

Please try to stop thinking inside of a small box audience of around NOW 60000!!

If I am not wrong when I joined DU is was only half that number!!!

My "small" findians worldwide community is over 80000.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #92
120. You miss the point.
Bev would not have even attached to the issue of BBV had it not been for DU, where the BBV was already developing when she latched on.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #120
126. Yep, it goes waaaaay back and is in the DU archives
Bev Harris did not originate the idea that these new voting machiens were a bad idea.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #126
152. and ultimately, the whole case of electrion fraud will be nowhere
without the MSM -- so it's not a bridge you wanna burn.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #126
190. actually Skip Fox IIRC used to post a compendium of BBV issues
in editorials on a daily basis when no one was paying attention to the issue. He did the same thing with Halliburton. This was a few years ago.
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DemOperative Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #190
219. where IS Skip Fox today??
Masterful researcher. I tried to get him to go to work for the party, but to no avail.

I LOVED his stuff when I only lurked
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #219
223. He still posts but is busy and is probably still in mourning, I imagine
he lost his father last year
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #126
255. The earliest reference I have come up
with on the topic is a Symposium in Boston in 1986.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Faun Otter Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #120
199. You're exactly right about the historical aspect
And thanks, Earl.

I feel safe posting on DU again.

Faun
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #199
353. Faun Otter is on a very short list of names of people in the U.S.
who were making the case within hours of Kerry's concession that "This is wrong. We can prove it."

I feel like this early moment was like another Boston Tea Party. A bunch of good minds got together and said, "What the fuck???" And "What are we going to do about it?"

It is turning out to be historical in its ramifications.

I salute you.
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #92
518. Hey Jacob
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 04:47 AM by SomthingsGotaGive
Do some homework and stop lecturing Americans on how to deal with agent provocateurs.

Search the archives...if you are not a member use the goggle advanced site search feature.

Either way search...

Bev + Evidence + Donations


In the Time you've been here have you ever seen Bev or anyone from BBV ever say...

"look there is only three of us. there is no way we will be able to go through all of the info everyone is sending us. please also send copies to the other BBV organizations to speed the process up."


Did she ever hire any more staff with the donations in order to at least deal with phone and email messages?


Instead she sat back let everybody send her their vote fraud tips and data analysis and never looked at ANY of it.

How could she. ALL three of them are gallivanting around Florida reliving their glory days this time with a film crew.

Sooooo

Professor Democracy, Which do you think is better...

Letting a tumor fester and grow for the sake of unity during your slow painful death.

or

Radical invasive surgery to remove the tumor, while immediately traumatic, the patient lives.


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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #92
551. Jacob, could I get
your views on this post by Bev on her on site?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Please keep in mind when you read this how many people from Bev's legions have accused us of working for Karl Rove.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
73. It is difficult for a strong personality to throw themselves into a fight
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM by tsuki
like this without it becoming "ego." It is the reason why so many "crusaders" are seen as misfits and egomanics by their contempories and heroes by future generations who see only the accomplishments.

I wish Bev Harris well. I respect the Admin's decision.

I shall be following her work, as all other groups.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
148.  And none of those are really MSM. Preaching to the choir.
Any of us could get on those shows in a nano second.
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
256. NO
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 05:44 PM by HeyManThatsCool
It is NOT a "win" for the republicans.
You cant think like that!

edited to add: A win for the republicans would be if we all rolled over, grabbed the kool aid jug and started gulping. We aren't about to do that
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
388. OFGS! Whatever you gave you gave to what you thought was a good
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 09:34 PM by KoKo01
cause! Bev's stuff convinced one freep type and two friends Repugs in my own circle of friends,that there was something wrong with our voting. So If that's just three folks for me...how many others did the research DU'ers did for her contribute to waking up folks.

I hate to hear this "Lost Cause Stuff." I'm so down in the dumps it's hard for me to see up...but in this case whatever you gave to get the message about BBVoting out was worth it. Just forget the "leader." I'm not fond of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton...but when you need 'em they are their with their mouths...

Just trying to "buck you up" not dis you here...
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
52. I knew it was bad, but I had no idea that it was THAT bad.
You made the right decision. Now let's get down to the real business of voter fraud.

:toast:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
87. Let's Keep Supporting Keith Olbermann
KOlbermann@MSNBC.com

Question:
Will Bev's damaged standing affect the fight for election reform? Like it or not,
her work and her website is identified with the fight for paper-trail verification.
David Dill of Verified Voting disappointed me after the election when I thought
he'd at least raise questions.

Let's all try to make it to Columbus, OH tomorrow and DC on Tuesday.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #87
124. I have emailed him twice, thanking him for his journalistic efforts.
He's a true advocate for us.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #124
135. I wonder if anybody will email him this Thread Post n/t
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #124
137. I emailed him too today, thanking him for his objectivity and
saying that I hoped he hadn't received too many off the wall emails yelling at him about Bev... I haven't commented on this much because I am new, but I have read all the evidence that has been provided. I think we need to let Keith now that he is doing the right thing by remaining objective, because that IS his job. I know I might get flamed for saying this, but really, we need to stay calm, and think before hitting send. Keith is the only one covering this - we need to respect him for it, and thank him. Just my two cents.

And thank you Administrators for clearing this up for me, I didn't know what to think over the past few days with all the mud slinging. :)
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
56. Very sorry to hear this about Bev.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM by Casablanca
And a good response from the moderators. The cause of verified voting is far too crucial to have it shot down by her overplaying the lawsuit activism game, if that is the case.
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stirringstill Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
70. Back To Issues
Lawsuit threats never win friends.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
59. End of the story.
Seen it before -- some people just let ego get in the way. Sigh.
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Miami Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
61. Good decision
now we can move on to other issues.
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Ducks In A Row Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
65. I'm sorry, but I don't agree this is Bev's fault as you imply
Bev Harris has been kind enough to share what's happening. I for one am grateful for the dialog.

It's sad that DU piles on because Bev isn't toadying up to some people the way those people want.

But that's not Bev's fault, seeing how she gets along quite well with people who aren't being primadonna. Mike Webb doesn't have problems with her, yet Keith Oblermann does. Randi Rhodes doesn't have problems with her.

I think it's especially rude to make this announcement in the middle of what is a crucial time for Florida. And it's esp. stupid in light that Keith Oblermann's bullshit seems to be the catalyst for this bull.

Well, if it's a choice between a Keith Oblermann, whose only two jobs are to get ratings and not bash bushco, and Bev Harris, it's Bev all the way.

Btw, banning Bev and not the freepers who followed Keith O. lead is the height of hypocrisy.



Its' too bad DU seems to be playing into the hands of the MSM, bushco, and the freepers at this time. And sad. And very disappointing.






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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. And I am sick and tired of you calling anyone who has issues with Bev a
FREEPER. We are not the ones who sold Clinton Cigars, she is. If ANYONE might possibly be the enemy, I think it would be the one who CONNIVED Du'ers into writing a book for her, all the while she denying that was what she was doing. I would think the freeper would be the one that callously SOLD Clinton Cigars. I would think the freeper would be the one that took TOTAL control of the project from the MANY activists who had been working it. I would think the Freeper would be the one who REPEATEDLY misrepresented the facts and the shielded the project from other known liberals. I would think the freeper would be the one who advised others not to file a qui tam lawsuit then FILED ONE HERSELF.

So please refrain from calling anyone names unless you know all the facts. I WATCHED DU write that book for her.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #71
114. Clarification
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:34 PM by plan9_pub
I would think the freeper would be the one who advised others not to file a qui tam lawsuit then FILED ONE HERSELF.

She just didn't advise other people not to file qui tams, she falsely accused other people of doing so and publicly VILLIFIED them. When she was remined of this fact in July, she CATEGORICALLY DENIED ever accusing anyone and dared people to prove she did. When BURIED with said proof, she then sulked and said she was not going to post on DU anymore, but came back and used DU to raise money for her "foundation" (which according to an email she sent me, she is the only salaried employee of).

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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carolinalady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #114
133. regarding the salaried employee issue----
We will know soon enough exactly how much money has been donated and exactly how much she is paying herself. I did some research today on her 501(c)3 and found a web site called Guide Star. I was able to get her EIN number. It looks like she got her IRS classification this year so the tax records are not yet available, but they will be after she files this year. This is a free website to use and you can check any charity's financials. I will be curious to see the report.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #133
172. Maybe she does draw a large salary....
but I suspect that she has an interest in the movie that is about to be released and which probably owns the copyright to the video that everyone is screaming about. From what is posted on the web, it looks a bit like F911, but not quite as dramatic.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #172
181. What I have suspected all along is that...
she took donations from people supporting BBV efforts, and then did the "activism" part, which will then be used in the documentary.

So basically it appears that the 501c3 is propping up the profitable business. They are disconnected on paper, but only on paper.
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #181
330. If that is the case she should consider running for office as a
Republican.

:)
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #330
355. It wouldn't be that far fetched for her to do so as a Republican.
She's an opportunist of the nth degree. You've heard about her hocking those "Clinton Cigars" during the impeachment for five dollars each?

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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #355
455. I didn't know about it until I read it a couple of days ago here.
It appears I didn't know alot of things until a couple of days ago. I feel like a putz on so many levels. The Clinton Cigars were just vulgar, the whole thing makes me ill.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #172
503. I agree, it's about a movie or video rights
I think she figures that she has at least a movie on the scale of "Outfoxed" on her hands. This was made clear by the fact that Votergate.tv uploaded a film to Archive.org, and then it was removed after "rights" issues appeared. Now Votergate.tv is hosting the film through other websites that do not require the video to be in the public domain. The fact that Harris mentioned that two or more different entities are fighting about various videos, plus the entire MSNBC ordeal, makes me think that her main motivation here is to cash out the video to the highest bidder. If she didn't care about the money, the raw video would have been released already. (Of course there's always the possibility that the video simply does not exist or is not worth the tape it was recorded on.)
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #133
174. As will many people
Given what she cost me in lost revenue and legal fees.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #114
134. Ahh...but it's all in the archives of DU
And she can't delete that. Evidence is there of her qui tam craziness.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #71
164. Thank you!
After reviewing the archives I could not agree with you more!
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #65
77. you should be banned from using the work "freeper" n/t
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #77
93. Or just the first part of the sentence.
How many times has he done this. ON every single post in which people agree with him, he calls us freepers, as does all of the others who have flooded DU in the past couple of days.

I guess that was the marching orders they were given. Disarm any attacks agains the Bev by replying that if you disagree, you must be a freeper or a "repuke."
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. Thing is, with repetition...
...it just becomes more and more of a joke.

What's funny is it seems that I almost always disagree strongly with someone who has to go around making those accusations to try to protect their delicate opinion.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #100
116. The problem is, there is no opinion of theirs to disagree with.
They just spout the same things over and over, and when you point out their errors, they revert to calling you freepers.

I would have loved to have had true, intelligent dialog with anyone on "her side" over this, but there was no way. I tried to point out that she didn't "serve papers" on LePore, because it was just a "courtesy copy" that she handed LePore, that she did it for attention, because LePore had already been served. The real legal service had happened that morning at LePore's office and attorney.

I would have loved to have heard someone justify a different opinion on the matter. Instead, they attacked me with the most outrageous insults. They didn't level-headedly discuss the point I had made; they didn't offer any real defense of her position.

Instead, they called me a "mad cow," a "freeper," a "Rove operative," and a "Repuke." Then they attempted to create a flame war to get the thread shut, which they did, before Skinner and Earl realized the context in which all of this had happened. Funny how truth has a way of emerging, given a couple of days.

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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #116
717. So if the LePlore thing was just a PR stunt....so what....I hope you
don't get offended, I'm just trying to understand this. I'm talking just specifically about the Leplore thing now...if she was showboating, why is that so bad? It seems like that Repugs are killing us with their PR stunts...God knows they're not getting votes on the issues.

I think the Dem party has had the smarter and more professional people for a long time....and were getting killed...why? Maybe Bev isn't the answer but we sure do need to start shaking things up a little.

And to tell you the truth....It make take a back-stabber (if she is one) to get to these people (Repugs). I think the biggest weakness the Dems have had is that they think they have "opponents", but with this group, they have "enemies" and they better come to grips with that.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #93
169. I did, I did -- even if in private messages.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 03:44 PM by Stand and Fight
Your posts actually caused me to give vent to my own reservations via private messages to you. Upon thoroughly researching the archives there was only one logical conclusion to make. I strongly feel that the admin has made the best decision.

If this recount effort does not work -- in our favor -- I am going to lobby the people here to lobby their congressional representatives to push for impeachment of Bush and company. I started to mention it yesterday in a thread, but backed off as it occurred to me that it would only serve to deflect from our current ongoing efforts. I just have to be patient and hope that just is served -- preferably before the chimp is out of office. I don't want to be one who takes away from the current strategy, and I most definitely don't want to be deemed a "FReeper" by anyone.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. But has she been honest?
DU hasn't piled on Bev because she doesn't kiss up. Everyone here gave her many chances. But when we saw the way she not only alientated BUT ATTACKED the people who were instrumental in doing the research and writing the chapters of "her" book, we understood what she was doing.

If bev didn't want this announcement made during this "crucial time," (and if you know anything about her, you know that everytime suspicion is raised about her methods and her objectives, she develops a crisis) then she shouldn't have come on DU and ignored the rules that DU admin had laid out for her.

People who are fans of Olbermann are not freepers. How dare you? Just because we don't share your point of view does not make us freepers...do you realize you are calling the very founding members of DU freepers? You have a lot of gall.

So that's the way you are going to sum it up...We are being manipulated by Rove. LOL! Actually, DUers are NOT easily manipulated. Bev's tombstone demonstrates that, doesn't it.

Kudos to DU admin, who, through the years, have weathered much bigger storms than Bev. DU's still here. Will BBV.org still be around in six months? I think not.

:toast:
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #65
88. I like KO and I'm not a freeper
I've followed Bev and BBV for a while and donated to her cause. Why can't you see that there are those of us that want BOTH to survive?
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regularjoe Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
157. I second that! I wish the best for all involved.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #65
94. Boy, Ducks, I'd be very interested to hear, why, exactly,
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:22 PM by crispini
you are completely, 100%, always in Bev's court? When there are threads here on DU showing Bev's inability to approach difficulties in a reasonable manner, and NUMEROUS long-time reputable posters who have stories to relate that jibe with the behavior above.

Seriously. You don't seem to be very objective to me. What is your substantive evidence for your faith that Bev is behaving appropriately, and ALL of the people who have interacted with her and are attesting to her difficulty to work with are not?
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #94
259. It reminds me of GWB
and how people blindly follow him even though in their hearts they know he is (a) WRONG and (b) NOT SMART

Just because Beverly claimed she had proof of fraud doesn't make it so. Just because Bush told America that he had to stay president or we wouldn't be safe didn't make it so.

Sad to say that alot of people do things to further their careers, their profiles. They enjoy the adulation. I believe Beverly falls into that category.

And frankly, if she realy has any evidence- she will be busting her hump to get it out there now that she has lost almost all credibility
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
106. Wooohooooooo Keith!
Let's go K O !!!

Olbermann, You Rock man, Keep up the great work in your objectivity!!!!!!!

:yourock:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:26 PM
Original message
Olbermann was fired from Faux for not spouting RW BS. I'll take Mr. O
over the primadonna Ms. Harris any day ... if I have to choose.

I wish Bev well, but the way she's treated people here, and handled this situation does not deserve respect.
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IStriker Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
401. Olbermann worked for Fox? Ewwwwwwww! When was that?
I never knew he worked there but my cable only got Fox about 2 yrs. ago and I'm sorry I have to pay for it since I never look at it. UGH! I remember him from ESPN hockey and never knew what happened to him when they fired him.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
279. can you see where this would lead?
"...the freepers who followed Keith O. lead..."

What you are saying is that there is only one possible position for a person to take on an issue, or the person will be accused of being on the side of evil. People with the solid credibility of decades of liberal activism as well as thousands of intelligent, detailed and passionate posts on liberal and progressive positions here have been maligned and smeared simply because they raised questions about things that public figures, such as Harris, were doing. Many of the most aggressive people who then piled on to "accuse the accusers" had little in the way of credentials or a track record themselves.

So I am not telling you that you are too paranoid, rather perhaps you are not paranoid enough. The issue here, though, is not whether one should be suspicious or complacent, aggressive or passive, rather it is one of how we manage suspicion in such a way that innocent people don't get destroyed and so that the community doesn't get ripped apart and thus weakened. See what I mean?

And then, by extension, DU gets smeared with the same suspicions.

"Its' too bad DU seems to be playing into the hands of the MSM, bushco, and the freepers at this time."

Can you see how suspicion can grow and grow until it destroys everyone? Can you see how that resultant climate of acrimony and suspicion is the thing that most plays into the hands of the opposition?

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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #279
523. m berst...
I just wanted to say that I've been sorta following this from a distance since it blew up yesterday (the day before?), and your posts are some of the most reasonable, rational, even-handed posts of the bunch.

Great post.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #523
526. thanks Chili
Thanks for the kind words. There have been some amazing battles the last few days here. They seem to follow the same script - true believers; a bunch of aggressive cheerleaders with one liners; intolerance of any skepticism; innocent people sucked into one "side" or the other; accusations and innuendo; suspicion and hostility - all circling around these complex and problematic "research" efforts that someone is supposedly suppressing.

- Mike
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
679. Good post, Ducks in a Row.
And I think we should be allowed to call freepers freepers. We all know they are here. It's no secret. We cannot allow their squabbles with those standing up for democracy to result in a loss of good leaders. When that happens, democracy loses and the bad guys win.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #679
682. On The FlipSide
"We cannot allow their squabbles with those standing up for democracy to result in a loss of good leaders. When that happens, democracy loses and the bad guys win."

Nor can we allow our LEADERS to act in irresponsible, threatning, self-serving, inappropriate, immature, obnoxious and arrogant ways. For that too can hurt our efforts and help the bad guys win.

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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #682
693. Good leaders are productive. They get RESULTS
Edited on Sat Dec-04-04 08:26 PM by Maddy McCall
The best leaders know their weaknesses and delegate authority to others who are better suited for particular facets of activism. Sometimes they are the ones behind the scenes who receive absolutely no acclaim.

Good leaders don't hog the spotlight and push others who have authentic interest away. They don't allow their personal flaws to sink the interest of the greater good.

Now, you tell me, how has Bev Harris demonstrated that she is a good leader?
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #693
700. Maddy, I agree with you COMPLETELY
Did you respond to the wrong post maybe?

:)
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #700
704. Yes, indeed I did. I was responding to Ducks
Thanks for pointing that out. :-)
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #693
709. The best leaders NEVER take credit
They ALWAYS insure those who have been delegated the real work get all of the credit!
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Broken Acorn Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
66. Good bye and Good Riddance to Bev
I fully support DU's decision and professional way of handling this situation. Unfortunately, some people just never learn :(
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
74. I was thinking..
EarlG, how about anchoring this thread so that it remains at the top of the pile? Just for a day or so. I commend you for this statement and I think everybody should see this. We all know how threads get buried very quickly on this forum.

Just a suggestion. My hat's off to you.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #74
83. Bump and kick
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
75. Hear hear! Verified Voting is too VITAL to be reduced to personalities
"From now on, we encourage all of our members to focus on discussing the verified voting issue itself, rather than the personalities involved."

There are many, many people working on the issue.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
76. Some people simply do not have the capacity to communicate with others
From what I have seen Bev is a pretty good investigator and has done a lot of hard work, slogging through thousands, maybe millions of pages of highly technical information to bring computerized voting to the forefront as an issue. Frankly though, with her limited staff and resources I doubt she could take it beyond that and have the capacity to investigate elections as they happen without a great expansion of her efforts, manpower and money.

From what I understand she has had many offers of personal services from DUers to accomplish that but due to her desire to remain in complete control of BBV she has rebuffed all offers and in some cases even expelled those who were already on the BBV staff when their levels of influence exceeded that which she was willing to personally accept.

My only personal experience with her was a few weeks back when she was haranging DUers who were just trying to help her with threats about suing them over the use of the term "Cleanup Crew" which I frankly doubt could possibily be trademarked or copyrighted since it is such a generic term.

Reading all the posts by those who have interacted with her in the past over the past few days just reinforced my impressions and then when I read that she basically bombed KO with abusive and threatening calls and mail and now your post explaining that DU was subjected to basically the same thing I think you had no real choice and want to commend you for an almost infinite amount of patience in your actions.



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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
89. She Threatened to Sue Over "Cleanup Crew"?!?
What a fucking joke.

DTH
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #89
117. Yes, there are still several threads on it in the Voting Issues forum
and Skinner posted about it somewhere though I cannot recall where, stating that she had also threatened to sue DU over the term's use by posters, attempting to get DU to police the posts and delete or lock any that used the term.

I asked her a few questions about it (I am a lawyer but not a patent lawyer), since there are no TM or copyright designations of any kind that I could see on her website and her responses were, imo, clipped, arrogant and dismissive.
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Faun Otter Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #117
211. Here's the specifics on the trademark
Searching trademark ownership can be done at this site:

http://www.uspto.gov /

I think the term as used was more likely to qualify as a service-mark since there is no tangible object to mark. As I read it, Bev claims "Clean Up Crew" or some arrangement of that term including the letters BBV, is a trademark belonging to her. If it is pending, a record might not show up but the US Patent and Trademark Office report that...

Word Mark
CLEAN UP CREW

Goods and Services
IC 003. US 052. G & S: Hand Soap and Hand Cleaner and Skin Cleanser. FIRST USE: 19820300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19820300

Registration Number
1280383

Registration Date
June 5, 1984

Owner
(REGISTRANT) Huntington Laboratories, Inc. CORPORATION INDIANA 968 E. Tipton St. Huntington INDIANA 46750

(LAST LISTED OWNER) Ecolab Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 370 Wabasha Street N St. Paul MINNESOTA 55102

While I may not trust certain parts of our government, I think the PTO records are probably quite good. This is strong evidence that any registration of the service mark 'Clean Up crew' is, at best, pending. It is not a registered trademark belonging to Harris.

Faun
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carolinalady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #211
217. From this it looks like it is quite possible that Ms. Harris may be
using someone else's trademark.
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Faun Otter Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #217
274. It doesn't work like that
A trademark shows the origin of an item. If Bev uses the term "Clean up crew" to try to sell some sort of hand cleaner, the possible confusion as to who orignated the soap would be a problem. If I simply call a group of people a "clean Up Crew" I am not trying to pass them off as a type of hand soap from another company.

Here is a good source of basic information on trademarks, copyrights and patents (Called intellectual property as a group)
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic /

Faun

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carolinalady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #274
276. Thanks--sorry for my ignorance. :)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #274
373. Yes....I had a big problem with her outburst on that. Thought about it
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 09:27 PM by KoKo01
and decided she was trying to "distance herself from DU" so as to position BBVoting as "non-partisan." I figured: "Hey if Kerry and DNC/DLC can do it maybe Bev is right and she slammed us because she was afraid Drudge and Coulter crowd would immediately label her as a "Democratic Agitator with Tinfoil." So...as pissed as her really agressive, threatening, remarks were...I figured we needed all the help we could get because most of us were in shock, dead brained, crying our eyes out or in caves at that point figuring we were "left as garbage" by our candidates.

So...I said...give her a break on this. :shrug: But, I didn't spend hundreds of hours giving her info for free, I only had a brief negative encounter with her and did a little early "name search," when she was first "nosing around" about BBV. The folks who did all the computer stuff are the ones who feel stiffed and I can see why...

But, still. She put it together and "went on the road" and woke up alot of folks to what was going on. How could we all have jumped on this election without something already there to build on. :shrug:
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #373
375. I'm no expert on this
and older-timer DU'ers can speak more to this -- but maybe you should do more research.

From what I know DU pre-exists BBV.org, and is at least a big part of the reason BBV.org got started.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #375
411. I was on DU lurking within the first five months...I've been here a long
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 10:09 PM by KoKo01
time. Bev brought it together and got researchers on it. The earlier studies were done by professors and were just hanging out there in the "ether."

So, that's why I've been posting about this. I was here when it started and watched it progress the warts and all... I've been here 3 and 3/4 years. DU was founded on Inauguration night 2000. Or, should I say "Installation Night." :D
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #411
413. then your statement isn't exactly correct...
"But, still. She put it together and "went on the road" and woke up alot of folks to what was going on. How could we all have jumped on this election without something already there to build on."

something wasn't already there to build on -- she built on ideas from DU.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #413
567. yes...that's what I said....she built on what DU computer code
investigators found in their research. Although Bev has said she found the GEM's code from Diebold online herself, I believe. She couldn't have figured out how hacking could occur without the DU investigators.

:shrug:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #567
576. Check this post
for a tad more on how the code was found.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #89
130. Yes, it is laughable. She claimed a phrase in the common lexicon was...
HER trade name, which is utter bullshit.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #130
167. It was "BBV Clean Up Crew"
and she didn't "own" BBV.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #167
183. It's so transparent, isn't it? She wasn't worried about protecting her...
"trade name." She was trying to silence a groundswell at DU that was actually getting something done in election fraud investigations. She was afraid that they were about to steal her thunder, so she threw a roadblock up in front of some very dedicated and prolific activists.

To me, that was the beginning of the end for her, as well as the action by her that exposed what she is truly made of.

I hope that DU's Clean Up Crew will continue in their efforts and use their Clean Up Crew name again! It is THEIRS if they want it because it is a common lexicon terminology.

If Bev were truly concerned about the fraud, over her desires for self-promotion and enriching her pocketbook, she would have applauded any efforts DUers were undertaking on the same issue she PRETENDS to care so much about.

That one episode showed me that Bev is in this for Bev, and Bev only.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #89
444. Yeah, that's what made me go, "WTF?" n/t
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #89
509. Yes, she did
And at the time I had no fucking clue that she used the term "clean up crew" on her web site.
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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. Good call
in my opinion. It's a shame it came to this but I think it was the only choice that could be made.
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SueZhope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
78. Thanks for diplomacy
Looks you you folks did your best to work things out for the bigger cause.
Sounds like you were very patient along the way, putting principles over personalities
I can imagine this being difficult decision to make

Thanks for clarifying the DU position on the situation
Im sure you did what was best for the the group.

Bev can still continue her important work
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
81. Behind the scenes things are different than they appear
All her reports of being hacked and fearing for her safety had me thinking her a Grassroots fire brand pushing for our cause.

EarlG's enlightening posts is welcome if not dispiriting. Bev may have pushed the envelope in several areas of BBV investigation while testing DU as an online community. Bev can still make a contribution and she already has. This information sure lends credence to the attacks she received here and at BartCop Forum.

I hoped it was not the case but she may need to be marginalized for our protection. I wish her the best.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #81
445. I'm wondering how much of what she said is even true.
Did she get hacked? Was she threatened? Was there a media blackout? Once she started threatening to sue over a silly phrase she claimed as her own, I started thinking we were being led on.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #445
448. crossed my mind earlier today...
not being led on, but how much "media blackout" has to do with her. Now, I don't for one minute think ALL of it is her, and I can't say if it's a substantial part of it, but with what has transpired over the last 48 hours, I couldn't help but think "if she deals with people like this all the time it's no wonder no one will put her on air".

It's all very sad, no matter how you slice it.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
84. With Regret, I Agree
I support the DU Admin. in their decision. It is time for Bev to stop sowing rancor and start producing results beyond publicity stunts. I could not agree more completely with the sentiment that it is critical that the issue of vote fraud move forward on a broad front and that more efforts by other people and groups are supported.

I wish Bev luck and I hope she does have the smoking gun, but the DU moderators don't have to pay the price for her odd behavior.

"Hence it comes about that all armed prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed prophets have been destroyed."

Niccolo Machiavelli
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #84
322. See that's the thing, though
If she DOES discover the smoking gun, what support will she get from this place?

That's why I, an impartial observer who only heard of Bev on Nov. 3rd and who has posted here only since the 8th or 9th just hoping and praying and emailing and donating to anything that looks promising can say with all clarity that the infighting can come back to bite everyone in the ass.

An as an aside, all the folks here who bash Bev's ego while simultaneously spouting off to "newbies" proclaiming how their 1000 plus posts give them some kind of authoratative credibility is just bunk. All it demonstrates is that you spend most of your time in this biased exclusive forum. I have over half a million posts over the course of ten years in multiple forums from religion to politics to science and beyond. What that makes me is well rounded and able to see what you folks in this bubble of yours cannot seem to conceive:

NEVER BURN YOUR BRIDGES. It may may you feel vindicated and self important at the time, but it is UNWISE.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #322
326. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #326
334. We're all hypocrites, that's not the point
The point of my post which you FAIL to address is this:

What if BEV FINDS THE SMOKING GUN????

Or are you now going to hope she doesn't?

Or if she does will you cut off your nose to spite your face??

You just don't get it.

Burn away Baby. . . :-)
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #334
336. No YOU don't get it
What good does it do for her to find the smoking gun if she's seen as a loon who can't control her temper?

I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #336
351. This is nuts:


"What good does it do for her to find the smoking gun if she's seen as a loon who can't control her temper?

I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics."

::::blinking rubbing me eyes, am I reading this correctly??:::::

So it's okay if she finds it--the proof that Bush stole the election and perp walks are televised while Bush goes down in shame and is replaced by our rightfully elected candidate-- so long as BEV HARRIS learns a lesson in the process?? The result of Democracy being restored to the American People would be secondary to Bev's education?


O man. You can't possibly be serious.

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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #351
354. has nothing to do with learning a lesson
Read it AGAIN

"I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics."

If she finds it but no one will LOOK at it or recognize it or tell anyone else about it or listen to her case (because she DOESN'T adjust her behavior and they think she's a nut), what GOOD does it do? NONE. It won't have any impact on anyone or anything except for a handful of people who know about it.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #334
338. Honestly, I don't believe she will ever find a smoking gun
If one is ever found, it will be an activist in it for the principle instead of the money.
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #334
524. she said she has it !!!
Several times !!

The boy who cried wolf.

She is the one who told us it was OK to use the F word.

Last night on Mike Web he asked her point blank.

"Do you smell Fraud in OH, FL, Washington, or ANY other state."

She said...

"I think there are activities consistent with it in varying degrees."

WTF


Is that the same as weapons of mass destruction program related activities?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #322
344. This is the best-moderated site I've seen, and I too have thousands
of posts on dozens of sites ranging over many topics.

The admins and mods here at DU are very thoughtful and evenhanded, and they do a wonderful job herding all 60,000 of us cats, plus the dozen or so deliberate disruptors who are here at any given time.

I don't know all the details of this case, but I've been here long enough to see some very petulant and unhelpful behavior. The admins did what they had to do in this instance.

As for random DUers who say silly and unwelcoming things, well, in any group of this size you are going to run into folks who are having a bad day, don't get along well with others, etc.

I welcome you to DU and hope that you will stay with us!
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #322
410. She's been one step from "finding the smoking gun" for months...
she keeps getting close to the smoking gun, and donations peak. See the pattern?
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #410
548. Make that years
She supposedly had the smoking gun from the 2002 elections but I guess she needed to keep it hidden to 'further the cause.'
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #322
412. Impartial observer?
If she DOES discover the smoking gun, what support will she get from this place?

If her evidence is TRUTHFUL, she'll make the Late Breaking News forum like every other story.

An as an aside, all the folks here who bash Bev's ego while simultaneously spouting off to "newbies" proclaiming how their 1000 plus posts give them some kind of authoritative credibility is just bunk

It gives many of us credibility because:

1) We been here longer and have seen the woman in action attacking her own allies.

2) Some of us, such as myself, have known her longer than you, and are VERY acquainted with her tantrums (and have the scars to prove it.

3) We are all a little suspicious of newly minted users who all seem to be posting in Bev's defense.

NEVER BURN YOUR BRIDGES. It may may you feel vindicated and self important at the time, but it is UNWISE.

LOL!!!! Absolutely correct! Now, will you tell Bev, or shall I?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #322
428. "biased exclusive forum" - sheer nonsense...
...Perhaps you haven't been paying attention (sycophants rarely do when it comes to criticism of their heroes) but if you'd bothered to read through the thread you might have discovered that your messiah was given to bouts of online splenetic rage, repeated false accusations directed towards others, and juvenile temper tantrums. The Admins bent over backward to give her a fair shake, and for their trouble all they got was more horseshit shoveled their direction at nearly every turn. Enough was finally enough. Go peddle your fairy tale someplace else.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #428
478. My word for the day
"splenetic"

Cool.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #478
479. Of or relating to the spleen?
or I assume you mean definition #2 -- LOL :D

Dictionary.com

1. Of or relating to the spleen.
2. Affected or marked by ill humor or irritability.
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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
85. Sorry for you guys
Earl, Elad and Skinner that it had to come to this. Sorry for Bev too that she just had to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she simply cannot control her wild imagination or her temper. Hope she gets some professional help. She's her own worst enemy.

Pretty sad day, but you did the right thing. Thanks, Guys.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #85
95. Ok
Let me show my stupidity. I heard that Bev Harris is Bush's cousin. Is this true?
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chimpy the poopthrower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #95
122. I don't think so.
There is another Duer who is a distant cousin of Bush - LynneSin, I believe?
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #122
129. ever see this site?
http://www.bushrelativesforkerry.com /

Some relatives of Bush (cousins)

(Bev isn't part of this)
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #129
160. Thanks for the link.
I didn't see any names of Bush's cousins on there. Just some links.
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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #122
159. Thanks for responding. I appreciate it.
I guess my post really was a stupid one since no one else responded! lol.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #95
168. LOL Now tha's a NEW one.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
97. The same scenario engulfed the founder of MADD
A very good cause, but somewhere along the way she confused her personal agenda with the agenda of the organization, and became somewhat of a prima donna. MADD eventually replaced her.

It's a double-edged sword. I hope Bev can stand back from herself, view the situation objectively, and move forward with a perspective which will benefit democracy. She is extremely talented and bright and has done all of us a tremendous service.

That being said, I feel a cloud has been lifted from DU. Thank you, Earl. Very fair and balanced summary :)
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #97
206. Nice post, Straight Shooter
I am a newbie, and, while I believe I have a fairly good handle on the Bev/DU connection (read archives and recent posts), I have been wondering what went wrong with Bev. She IS obviously bright, and she has done much good.

I, too, hope that Bev will "stand back from herself"...maybe this will be all that is needed for her to make some professional decisions to further her work.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

I hope so.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
98. this deserves a
Kick! :kick:
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
99. BEV IS NOT PERFECT. NO ONE IS. BUT SHE HAS DONE A LOT MORE GOOD THAN BAD.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 02:22 PM by TruthIsAll
No one is perfect. She may be a little hot-headed. So am I.

I am dissapointed to see this concerted effort to bring her down on DU, regardless of any disputes in the past.

HELL, I WAS BANNED ONCE ALSO. SO DOES THAT MEAN I'M NOT CREDIBLE?

I GOT PISSED OFF AT ANOTHER DUER WHO WAS A TROLL. I LET HIM HAVE IT AND FOR THIS I GOT BANNED. BUT MY INTENTIONS WERE ALWAYS GOOD. BY THE WAY, THAT TROLL WAS LATER BANNED FROM DU AFTER PISSING OFF SCORES OF OTHER DUERS.

Bev has made BBV a household word.

You should all be grateful.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. None of us deny that she's done a lot.
Not even the original poster of this thread.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #99
105. BBV Is far from a household word
Which is part of the problem.

No one denies she's done great work. It's her PR skills that are potentially HURTING the whole effort (and her OWN efforts). Good intentions aren't an excuse for unprofessional behavior.
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #105
149. Agreed. n/t
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #105
154. Once again. I agree.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 03:13 PM by saracat
Terrible PR skills. But having read her reply this morning to the film crew person, I think there is something else going on. How do you forget such a meeting? And then recall another one when pressed? Very weird. I wouldn't give her a dime. I haven't but I directed some of my wealthier friends to. They gave as a result of the results of the election and not knowing where to turn. I am beginning to think she may have preyed on our desperation.

BTW, Thanx for locating and posting that thread!
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #154
210. Saracat...I agree...n/t
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #99
109. So is Bev's Accountant
It's like closing time at a bar.
"You don't have to go home Bev, You just can't stay here"

If Bev is truly the Moses of this issue, let her cast her rod toward heaven and bring forth manna or strike the rock and bring forth water. According to her, she, ultimately, is the one that doesn't need DU and she has acted accordingly. Her work is not diminished one iota by being banned from DU. Her fund raising might take a hit, but in the end her much talked about "trash bag" and "poll tape" evidence will speak for itself. I wish her luck!!!!
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. Lovely analogy
:-)
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #109
186. Horrible analogy.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 04:07 PM by Stand and Fight
Bev Harris, while many things, is no where near the greatness of Moses to even invite even a comparitive analogy. Not one single iota near enough to be compared with those in history who have trumpeted transparency in freedom and put their own desires, egos, and ambitions aside for the greater good. I see no indication whatsoever of that here. There are such things as shameless self-promoters who do so without ever actually verbalizing it. Actions can speak louder than words, but actions speak infinitely louder when accompanied by harsh and irrational words.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #186
193. I agree
The way I have seen (from Bev's posts and elsewhere) Bev talk to people, especially those that disagree, is completely the wrong way to present yourself when you are representing something as important as she is. Some can say 'ahhh, but look who she's dealing with, she has the right to be frustrated blah blah', well I say bullshit, she Does NOT. To show how she SHOULD handle herself, I will use as analogy one of my new saints, Mr Cliff Arnebeck. Anyone who saw that C-Span video of him yesterday now can see how a REAL professional handles such issues. I was immensely impressed with his composure in handling the callers who were completely absusive. THAT is how return fire should be. Calm, Composed, On Message.

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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #193
264. You've got it buddy!
I mean the guy was threatened by that National Guardsman and he still managed to stay composed. Frankly, I was surprised at his cool-headed collected mannerism. It barely even showed on his visage that he was bothered by the comment. He collected his thoughts and then retorted in the same manner-of-fact composure and stood his ground with in organized thought provoking way. I have TREMENDOUS respect for him, and am continually working on being able to conduct likewise; that is to say, I'd like to have as much grace under fire as Mr. Cliff Arnebeck. Especially once I jump into the political arena.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #99
113. It seems to me that we (on the whole) are grateful...
but most of these people just don't want to communicate with her in this forum anymore. I get the feeling everyone still wants her to prove her case and help America.
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Sparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #99
132. Were your particular posts banned or did you have to create another
id to get back on? And speaking of that.....Ms. Harris could do the same from a different puter.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #99
141.  DU apparently did more to make BBV a household word.
But BTW. Neither BBV or Bev Harris are household words and she just took a large step to ensure they will never be. I hope I am wrong but clearly her ego came first.
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KatieB Donating Member (431 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #141
173. Would love to see actual evidence of all this.
As someone kind of new to DU - reading your statement without any backup makes me think something else is going on...I read her bbv explanation re: KO and it did not seem wacko - it seemed quite level - they had quoted other sources and attributed it to her when they had not spoken with her.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #173
189. Read the OP.
I'd also suggest you do what I did and research all of this by digging through the archives. Then you'd be able to make a more informed posting yourself after arming yourself with knowledge.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #189
197. Thanks . You saved me the trouble. Sheesh , the link is right in
these threads, several times! You have to really wonder about some of these defensive newbie posters!
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #173
263. Do you have the search feature? True curiosity to get to the bottom of it?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #141
220. Saracat....you are wrong about that...and I usually agree with you, but
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 05:12 PM by KoKo01
NOT on this one. She was here on DU and got many folks doing research for her who were desperate to get the information out that GORE WON FLORIDA. We all knew...those of us in the "early days" here on DU that that election was stolen...but we couldn't find a way to get it out to the rest of America. When Bev came on here she managed to "herd alot of cats" to coalesce with her and give their time for NO PAY...and she got David Allen of "Plan 9 Publishing" to publish her books. She had our 100% support and those of us who weren't Computer Literate did what we could to get what was accomplished by her out there. She was the first person who got many organized to work on this and she achieved a great deal of success even though those who worked with her feel used, abused, and trashed by what they feel was her "Grandstanding" and difficult personality.

I've sent Bev's stuff out to so many people who for the first time had some of the "scales" lifted off their eyes about what we were going to be faced with in all our elections after 2000. I really think when all this is out a few more years, we will realize that ALL of that "free time and abuse that was the "wind beneath Bev's Wings and Bev and Andy," were more valuable than what it looks like now.

I know the history...I just know that folks who start things that become huge in our history don't always last and are subject to attacks of "using folks" for their own enrichment. But, I still hate to see the "happy fest" of folks who want to "Stone Her."

Sorry...I just have to think she did more than Kerry/Edwards did to expose what they would be up against. The folks who follow her will hopefully be more "forthcoming" and easier to deal with and maybe will appeal to our sense of values and morality better...but she got attention in the same way Michael Moore has...and we need those folks more than we want to admit... :shrug:
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #220
250.  I appreciate her work. I just meant DU gave her a forum.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 05:39 PM by saracat
And the people on DU contributed to make her work possible. I don't think she would have accomplished as much if anything without DU. It is such a shame that a person such as Bev who worked so diligently, as I am told, will be the one who lets her own ego topple the good she has done. No one is perfect but it is very difficult to achieve success when you never think of anything but your own ego.Sometimes you have to share a bit to get a lot. This is a perfect example of that principle. I wish her efforts well. I hope she is capable of learning a different set of people skills.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #250
273. Karl Rove and Tom DeLay's Ego seemed to have "Triumphed." I leave
my comments as they stood in my post. I understand what you say...but it isn't pragmatic enough for me..when I look at the "hounds of hell" we are up against... :shrug:
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #220
292. Get the word out.
No, I've talked to plenty of people -- most of which(some 90%) have no idea that Gore actually won Florida. The only reason I know is because I am a news junkie. Honestly, the knowledge of that heavily lead to me changing my political affiliation from Republican to Democrat.
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #220
690. Agreed. I sent just the BBV like to many and hundreds of new people
became informed. What the hell I'm I suppose to tell these folks now? That Bev is a Black Box carpet bagger? Either way, this really hurts any momentum that I had spreading the word. I'm tired of getting flamed by the anti Bev folks. I realize she has attitude problems and my not be as upstanding as folklore would demand, but wow, the flames from DU'ers I use to respect. WTF - it all sucks.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #99
166. She is not a *little*
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 03:41 PM by plan9_pub
hot headed. She could come across as UNHINGED.

Bev has made BBV a household word.

Bev and the legion of folks who helped her and did a *lot* of the heavy lifting for her made BBV a household word.

You should all be grateful.

And we are, and have said so. Gratitude does not extend to being Bev's door mat, though.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #99
191. I agree with you....she brought the issue forward and got "publicity" for
it. That's what she was a "publicist." Perhaps her "people skills" are lacking and she's in over her head emotionally. And, she probably is an "opportunist" which folks who are good publicists always are.

She's alienated so many folks here, that I understand why so many disliked her and felt used. However, as I said on many posts on the Bev/KO threads...we should understand that we may not like all the folks who "used DU'ers" but that we need to put that aside because getting anything over the MSM has been difficult in the past years, but almost impossible after "9/11."

I think Admins had to do what they did. Having Bev ignore the controversy surrounding her and come back and post and then trash mods was way OTT. So, I support what they did. But, I still think we need to remember that folks who get attention for causes are often folks we here on DU will always have problems with. DU seems to attract, IMHO, folks who are super patriots (not the Bush/Repug kind but more the Tom Paine/radical Founding Fathers type) and folks who have been trashed so many times by our own party that we are very sensitive to "hypocracy."

We, here, probably would never find the "perfect candidate" or "perfect anything," because we are very critical and discerning of folks motivation. We also attract a high proportion of "trolls" as we grow and who knows what they are stirring up here, they are very good at what they do, or the Chimp wouldn't be installed in the WH.

I hope Bev will go on with whatever she's doing and those who are working with her can guide her. And, I think that the other folks here who are working on media and exposing all the fraud our country has been involved with will continue.

It's sad to me this had to happen, but it's been brewing for so long that it's good it's overwith. We have other groups fighting for our vote. Bev will be one of them, but a part...and not the "center."

That's okay..but we still owe those who supported her here on DU a big debt of gratitude and the Admins and Mods, too for putting up with it all... my 2cents.. :shrug:
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #99
480. A mixed bag, like most of us
.
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #99
525. No....YOU TIA have done EXEC LENT work.
You show everything.
You rage not gloat and smirk.
You fuk up and then fix your errors.
You Haven't Stooped.
You have explored every avenue.
You have spread the work and asked for help.
You inspire
You motivate.
You have Never asked for money ONCE
You have Never insisted on a single theory.
You have Never ridiculed others that chose a different path to investigate.


And most important.....

YOU NEVER PROMISED ANYONE ANYTHING


You are a DU Role Model


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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #99
718. no one accused you of anything
SO DOES THAT MEAN I'M NOT CREDIBLE?

The issue is a pathological liar whose egocentrism obscured what grains of truth were there to begin with. Your name wasn't even mentioned.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
103. My hat goes off to the DU administrators
You took a no-win situation, evaluated the facts AS THEY APPLIED TO DU ONLY, and made the only decision you could.

Everybody has to respect that!

Kudoes!
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Sparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
104. Wow, I didn't realize Ms. Harris was like that.
I hope she doesn't flip the switch and turn into a rabid right winger.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #104
118. Are you aware of her history?
Your fear might be well justified.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #118
136. Maybe she'll start selling bandaids?
You know, the ones with a purple heart on 'em?

Fits in with the Clinton cigars.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #136
139. Well...
If she would have thought of it first and the money was good, she probably would have.

Why does the phrase "snake oil salesman" come to mind?

:shrug:
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #136
516. Why not, *ush is getting a book overnighted?
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.c...

"...You may be very surprised at who's in our corner on this issue. In fact, George Bush ordered my book, had it overnighted.
Thanks.
Bev"

Thanks to the mods, I've been queasy @ the developements here & on the BBV site for a while now. The digs & insults directed at the DU BBV cleanup crew, DU mods, Kerry, & now Olbermann pushed my support of the table - not Du'ers or anyone else. Bev has cut her own credibility off, & seeing how she responds, by slamming or smearing the people that are working to the same goal - protecting the vote - has finished off any reservations or excuses she might have garnered from my little corner of the world. So ... how do I quit the BBV.org site (or, judging from the raving going on there - maybe just posting this will do it for me!?)?

btw - posting this thread instead of just an announcement is a good thing, allows some catharsis for the soul. TY mods.
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #118
213. Yup
FRom what I am seeing now, I don't think this is far-fetched.
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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #104
140. Disgusting
I'm really sad that she couldn't rise above her ego and let everyone come together and help her... this work is so important. These stunts and outbursts of hers will prevent her from being taken as seriously as she could be, and the effort needs as much help as it can get.

When you're doing important work, and someone disagrees with you or doesn't have confidence in you, you can respond in only 2 ways and still maintain your credibility: 1. Ignore it and keep working; 2. Reply calmly with facts only.

It makes me SICK that she would put any of this effort in jeopardy by letting her need to the be the Vote Fraud "it girl" get in her way.

I'm a huge supporter of what she has accomplished and is still trying to accomplish, and this situation disappoints me GREATLY, but it's obvious the DU staff had no choice, and they definitely made the right decision.
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #140
216. I think you have captured it
"It makes me SICK that she would put any of this effort in jeopardy by letting her need to the be the Vote Fraud "it girl" get in her way. "

Thank you.
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SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
107. Excellent decision
I haven't posted on related threads but have followed them closely, and I support your decision. I hope it will achieve the desired result.
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
112. Thank you
I was getting sick of her DU fundraising.or should i say having DU finance her lil movie.
Florida was stolen AGAIN!!..Bev was only cashing in on it.
I am behind you 1000000000000000000000%
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DubyaSux Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
115. Bev who?
...oh...yeah. Whats-her-face.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
123. I don't know enough about what's happened to comment, but . . .
I trust the judgement of EarlG, Skinner and Elad . . . running a discussion site with 50-odd thousand participants has to be an incredible pain in the ass, but they continually manage to do it with integrity and class . . . I know Bev can be caustic, and I hope she steps back a bit and realizes that she can be her own worst enemy . . . maybe she needs someone to be the public face of BBV while she continues with the grunt work . . . anyhow, I'll miss her posts, but I trust that this decision was not made lightly, and I can always follow her work on her own site . . . it's all good . . .
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
125. It is not a secret that I have been very skeptical of Bev,
After reading your reaction and your actions concerning her I would like to offer my congratulations on your restraint and your support of a difficult person and situation for the sake of the cause of verified voting.


TC
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
127. Just a thought or two for the moderators....
Hi all,

I don't know Bev Harris personally, but I do know what it feels like to fight with government employees intent on distorting rules to their own ends. I have currently a CPRA request with a community college over fraudulent fee expenditures that has been outstanding for a two months as of Dec. 5th. I have had to deal with attorneys and all kinds of nonsense too. This is my point.

Bev is likely stressed to the max, disheartened at the fact she couldn't stop the fraud from happening, etc. Yes, she does seem like she likes to have full control of her environments, and maybe she needs to recognize how sometimes the cooperation is more important. I have been given the same feedback in my own life time to time.

Given the "better behavior" Bev has displayed on the boards up until the last day or so, during which she was examined thoroughly though forum discussion, the "ban" should be a suspension, and nothing more. I am a little concerned that we would ban her even under these circumstances.

We all saw how active the discussion was about Bev since Kieth Obermann made his observations. I myself posted a thread to consolidate the posts when I first started seeing threads pop up every five minutes. I gave up when I saw the trend was not going to stop. Eventually our fine DU moderators came in and calmed things down to a mild simmer. We should all understand that from a personal perspective, watching your name get tossed around so often can be nerve wracking. Bev may have been a little active with the alert button, but if you weigh it against all the chatter, was it justifiable to a degree? Was it at least understandable?

I, like many of you that post here, do get discouraged when we hear Bev sound so litigious with people that are on roughly the same side. We don't like to hear that she has allegedly been difficult to transact with. Personally, I prefer to use statements like "take the necessary steps," "pursue other alternatives," "begin to research my options," etc. when trying to tell someone they are risking being sued. It is normally enough to tell someone they aren't right for X-reason and then get a little firm with them. Also, when you have been pushed to the brink, never say you will litigate, just do it. The word sue is so dirty in our language it is like swearing at someone. Using the word litigate, or even in heated moments "let's sere what a judge thinks" is way better than saying "I am so gonna sue you." If this is in fact how Bev Harris handles things, then maybe she just needs some warm, caring feedback on how she can communicate these thoughts less offensively.

Please folks and especially moderators. We are a community. Sometimes members of this community are a little tough on the nerves, but that does not mean that they do not have the capacity to learn. I will stop short of telling DU how to run this amazing little web community, but will offer strong feedback regarding the banning of members. I personally do not like seeing this happen, especially with players so obviously on this side of the machine issue. I see no reason to exceed suspensions for anyone, let alone Bev Harris. Even all those little punks that run through here and scream "bush won f-in deal with it" should be allowed back in time.

The goal is to be as inviting as possible while still maintaining order. Order can be maintained with time-outs. :)

Warmly,

George
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. Just a point
This was Ms. Harris's second chance. She had been banned once before and allowed back.

Are you suggesting the DU administration should give a third chance?
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #131
275. some prophet once said:
"seventy times seven. . . "
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #275
278. I try not to forgive people until they at LEAST stop smiting me.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #275
346. It's not a question of forgiveness -- not even close
David Allen put it well: doesn't mean you have to be Bev's doormat.

She's done good work; we all applaud that and MANY people have contributed, either financially or in research and other free services for "the cause" or both. She goes off half-cocked and can be a loose cannon; okay, so none of us is perfect. She can use people (and their talents) without proper credit or thanks and appreciation; for some of us what we offered was for the effort anyway, not the glory.

But THOSE small human failings (and several others) are not the issue either.

I've mostly stayed out of this latest spate of threads, reading just one of the SIX "discuss Bev Harris and K.O. here" threads started by Admin. In that thread was one post that affected me deeply. I think it was by Wiley57 (???), and he was beside himself because someone local to him whom he'd worked very hard to cultivate on this issue happened to call Bev within the last day or so, actually got through to her, and got totally reamed out for his trouble. Wiley was distraught that this hard-won new local computerized voting issue activist was treated that way and that he might be lost as a co-activist as a result. I felt so sorry for Wiley (if that's who the poster was), and also for the poor new activist who was so unlucky as to actually reach Bev on the phone.

His retelling of that experience brought back some unpleasant memories for me. I myself was treated precisely that way twice by Bev (and made it my business to make sure it NEVER happened again), and Roxanne and David and Alistair (althecat) and no doubt others ALL received precisely that kind of abusive treatment from Bev as well. In the case of the others, because of the urgency and importance of this issue, they took it and took it far longer than I was willing to.

This is also the type of treatment that apparently one of K.O.'s producers received at her hands (or mouth). The threats of lawsuits and overuse of alerts Earl mentioned seems to be part of the same abusive pattern as well.

These are not examples of a personality quirk, a minor flaw, a foible, something to overlook and tolerate "for the good of the cause." That's not possible for emotionally healthy people to do -- healthy people ISOLATE themselves from people who abuse them. Period. You might take it for a while, but there comes a point when you realize that THIS IS NOT HEALTHY PERSON TREATING YOU THIS WAY and it's not healthy to ALLOW yourself to be in a position to BE treated that way.

Being lied about publicly (i.e., here at DU), as several of us were (as well as several other prominent members of the movement who are not part of DU) -- without either retraction or apology to this day! -- is another part of her particular pattern of abuse or perhaps paranoia or who knows what? But it IS a pattern, and I share the same sentiment as another poster upthread who said s/he hopes Bev gets some professional help.

No one I know of doubts her talent, her commitment and zeal and passion or even her body of work to any great extent (so well supported by DU and DUers, as EarlG pointed out). We just all reached a point -- individually reached decisions, all -- that we can't work with her, can't let her near us, can't give her opportunities to continue to treat us abusively, and can't let any lies about us stand unchallenged.

I'm saddened by this development (I've been away all afternoon), including the banning -- but I support the decision whole-heartedly and add my thanks and congratulations to Admin for their forebearance, wisdom and good judgment.

And for anyone who doubts it, there are MANY people and MANY organizations who are working very hard on this issue -- it's NOT owned by Bev Harris at all. All of the others I'm familiar with also have much better credibility at this point anyway, tho may be somewhat less visible.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #346
429. Thank you for mentioning that there are many others
working on this very important issue. I'm feeling a little better.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #127
138. LOL! Your whole premise is flawed.
Given the "better behavior" Bev has displayed on the boards up until the last day or so


LOL! Again, you need to go spend a couple of hours in the DU archives. Her obnoxious behavior began two years ago, not two weeks ago.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #138
194. Listen to Maddy...
Trust me -- spending some time in the archives researching was an eye opening experience in regards to this issue.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #127
155. Delete Dupe
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 03:19 PM by saracat
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #127
156. Apparently not. The "time out" didn't work.
And she is not a child but an adult who must face the consequences of her unprofessional behaviour. DU also has an obligation to protect its own credibility and the interests of its membership .
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #127
158. Already a second chance, and KO is reporting the same behavior.
Doesn't look good.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #127
207. Thanks geo--"stressed to the max" was my first thought.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 04:47 PM by anamandujano
She has known for a long time her work would make her a prime target. Frayed nerves, paranoia and in-your-face behavior go with the territory. I haven't invested the time and energy that many DUers have in Bev Harris and totally support administrative decisions. Just asking people to keep in mind that she is under attack from all sides and her work is still important.
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #127
229. You are fairly new (as am I)
I think it might be wise to look at the history here. You were not around for most of it.
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #127
230. Another thought:
"The goal is to be as inviting as possible while still maintaining order. Order can be maintained with time-outs"

What, are we a community of pre-schoolers? Come on, Geo, time out?

I think that the DU moderators were very, very patient given the nature of the work. But, there is a limit, and it is not unreasonable to expect posters to this community forum to behave like adults.
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
128. Strong move, EarlG.
It had to be done, as harm was being done to DU by the situation.

Facile navigation through a difficult situation. Cheers to all of you. Hopefully, those who have had their reputations sullied by this situation can now get them back. One can hope.

-as
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
142. great reply
thanks Earl for posting this

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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
143. Thank you for letting us know what & why.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
145. Had to be done.
Whatta shame, though.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
146. thanks for posting this explanation
As someone who comes into DU erratically, I was totally baffled about this conflict.

I appreciate knowing what really happened and all the efforts you and your colleagues put into keeping this website running so smoothly.

Thanks again.
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propagandafreegal Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
147. I didn't realize the the history........... thanks for sharing nm
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
151. Well said!
A very diplomatic stance and one supported by keen logic. I'll simply state a quote from one of my favorite shows:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."

-- Commander Spock, Star Trek
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
162. The Legal Threats Make it Very Difficult for DU
and I appreciate the mods' quandary.

I've tried to criticize Bev's PR effort independently of the value of her research. I would hope that BBV can improve based on constructive criticism, or if not that someone else can pick up the issue.
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DancingBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
165. Very well stated, EarlG
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 03:34 PM by DancingBear
As someone who supports the work Bev is doing (and, by proxy, Bev herself) I found myself with a whole new set of issues to digest upon reading the summary contained within your post.

All I can say is that every response you (as admins) have made during my stay here have been reasoned, rational, and well thought out. I see no reason to change my opinion at this time.

Thank you for taking the time to let us all know the reasons. For me, especially, it was an eye-opener.

I do have one question, however. Will Andy (god, b & c to the old-timers) still be posting here if he desires, or is the ban on BBV in its entirety?

I will continue to monitor BBV and wish it success beyond it's wildest dreams, and I hope great things come from both BBV and the other wonderful organizations who are doing what needs to be done.

Until democracy returns at the voting box,

DB
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Mick Knox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
170. More patience than she deserved
Good job once again to the admins.

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KatieB Donating Member (431 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
171. DO NOT BAN BEV
Just now when critical mass appears to have been met to draw national attention to the e-voting machine fraud, you are banning Bev?
Seems silly.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #171
175. It's already done. But, don't you think you need to question that...
every time Bev paints herself into a corner, pisses off people who have been her advocates, and endangers her cause and her flow of money, a new crisis emerges?

Bev creates crises to continue donations.
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KatieB Donating Member (431 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #175
195. Is someone trying to discredit her work with this personality focus?
Her work has brought national attention to the issue of voting machine fraud. Our vote does not exist if the corruption tied to these machines is not exposed. Don't fall into this con to make this a personality issue. Oldest trick in the book. Discredit the work by discrediting the source.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #195
196. Can't you see that if the personality gets in the way of the work...
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 04:21 PM by Maddy McCall
...then the personality *IS* the problem, as has proven true numerous times and in her intereactions with numerous people in this situation. BEV IS NOT BBV, as much as she wants to be exculsively identified with the movement.

The cause is noble, but the person who claims to be leading it is NOT.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #196
284. Many folks feel Michael Moore's "Personality" gets in the way of His Work!
How are we to know down the line which is most important? I like to think that the folks "behind the ego's" triumph in the end, but without the "ego's" where would we be? I'm a researcher. I don't have the ability to go on Stump Speeches and Push Myself and what I've researched. I leave that up to the client I work for...

If my client is a jerk, but I get paid, and my research has contributed to my clients getting a product out or getting a link to some site that can help them make money...then I'm okay and feel I accomplished what I was asked to do...
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #284
303. Bev is NO Michael Moore.
What a ludicrous comparison. I'm sure Bev likes to compare herself to Michael Moore, but she is nowhere near the person he is.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #303
313. There are parts to the "Votergate Documentary" which seem to show that
she's a Moore "wannabee." :shrug:
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #313
315. Ya know, regardless...
Do you know how many years Michael Moore was "on the scene" before he became widely popular? In case you haven't noticed, we don't have that kind of time! :P

In was Bowling for Columbine that gave him momentum, and F911 that put him over the top.

Regardless, he's a FILMmaker... his credibility is much less "important" than someone filing lawsuits to prove election fraud. His controversial nature drives people to see his films, even if to call him a nut -- it won't work that way in a court of law.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #315
321. Yes...I see your point here...but don't we have room for both Moore & Bev?
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 08:05 PM by KoKo01
in the spectrum of the flamboyant/controversial? I understand why Admins "tombstoned her." In fairness to them...they do this for all of us if we get "out of line."

Still...I "sit on the fence somewhat with Bev." I don't like that Symbolman and Stranger of "Take Back the Media" were left hanging out to dry because Bev had a "personality disorder brain fart" the day she was supposed to film with them, nor do I like or approve that she used DU'ers to do her research and David Allen to publish it and then goes around "threatening everyone who worked for her! Sounds like your average "Bushdom CEO of a Mega Drug Company" or something.

Still...she's flamboyant and the media loves it...just not KO... :shrug: and DU Admins who have to deal with her trashing folks and mods and them and never knowing where she's coming from...
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #321
324. Not sure I agree the media has loved it
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 08:09 PM by AmyCrat
Or she'd be more IN the media. The main stream media that everyone sees.

I think there IS room for both. But I also think the BBV "powers that be" need to recognize the difference. The ISSUE itself is controversial -- no need for it's "leaders" to be controversial themselves. Let them do the smart PR work. Let them learn something from people like Rove, who we may not like, but who knows how to place the PR game.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #324
521. Look at this proof that the media didn't love her ! Read Olberman's
reply. The following is a is a thread from her site:


sent Olbermann an email critical of his treatment of Bev.This is his response:
Who ever said we thought we believed ourselves deserving of a Pulitzer?

And, trust me, the "bigger ratings" make no difference financially or in other senses. My contract was renewed two weeks before this all began. This, from our perspective, is about the truth. And listening to someone sound like one of the hateful emails I've been getting from those on the political far right does NOT add to that person's credibility as a source of information.

Your email is shameful, and moreover, misses the entire point.

Seems Mr Olbermann is a bit sensitive to criticism. But, I'm kinda of a rabble rouser so I wrote him again. His response:

She removed all references this afternoon -- my last reference to her was last night. There is no tit-for-tat, I won't be bringing her up again.

You may have noticed Ms. Harris has been banned from the website Democratic Underground because she's been behaving erratically there, too. I'm sorry, but there is a far more dangerous dumbing down going on here -- believing what you want to believe (you know, like Conservatives do).

As to tonight's content on Countdown, I guess you missed the story on Delaware County losing its bid to stop the Ohio recount.

Please stop writing me until you regain your rationality and your use of polite language.

Really, I didn't curse or anything. Keith just can't handle criticism. But he does seem to answer his emails.

Is this true Bev? Erratically? I can't imagine why you'd be under any stress or anything.

Anyway, I urged Keith-y boy to make peace and report the important parts of this story and quit trying to turn it into some Anna Nicole jiggle piece. I hope this all works out, but Keith has lost all credibility in my book.




Alert | IP
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #521
570. I read that too Saracat, and it really made me nervous -
Like if people keep nailing keith with the crazy emails, he could quite possibly just stop covering it. I don't think they realize what damage they are doing to this story... :(
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #313
335. Sorry KoKo, but its DUers like you who are disrupting the cause....
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 08:27 PM by AntiFascist
by continuing to pit personality vs. personality. Who cares if she is a Michael Moore wannabe?? Personally I think that Hijacking Catastrophe is much more fact filled and better researched than F911, but where would we be now if it wasn't for these egocentric, greedy personalities?

The fact is, if you view the BBV video it gives a clear demonstration of how central tabulation results can be easily fixed using MS Access software commands. Now, is it any wonder that KO, who happens to work for another MS company, might be trying to discredit Bev Harris right before her documentary is put up on the web? (which is, by the way, at www.votergate.tv ).
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #335
356. My read of your post is that you think I haven't watched "Votergate" and
am splitting folks because I should be defending Bev...not trying to point out the good and bad she's done but focusing on the fact that we aren't going to find someone as "perfect/pure" as we want?

:shrug: I had trouble reading your post...but think you misunderstood MY post.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #356
383. No, I think we are being a little too self-centered about all of this....

I'm concerned that all this talk about Bev Harris' underlying motives may be distracting people from the evidence which has been uncovered. Bev Harris wants to get rich off of other peoples work, Bev Harris is really working for the Right Wing, Bev Harris is unstable and burns bridges that she should be trying to cross, Bev Harris has fantasies about becoming the next Michael Moore.... If anyone else can do a better job then who is stopping them?

We need to put this all behind us and examine the fruits of her labor. There is an underlying insinuation that, because of her background and her motives, that possibly the results of her work are questionable. If that's the case then someone else needs to step up and validate those results, and I think people are already doing this.

Step back and look at the bigger picture for a second.

Right before the election Bev was trying to get election officials to unplug the modems from the Diebold central tabulator PCs, and hand deliver the results to the tabulator machines. Its probably safe to assume that many did not do this and left the modems connected so that hackers may have been able to phone into the machine and run scripts or viruses which activated the simple commands used to change the results.

Bev cautioned DU hackers not to be "heros" and try to do this in Kerry's favor. Why? Because any investigation might then uncover corruption on both sides, and this would ultimately work against us.

The result, now, is that widespread vote padding may have occured in California and Texas, giving Bush his 3 million vote margin. Not to mention corruption in Ohio and Florida which may have allowed Bush to claim a clear victory. These issues need to be investigated.

Any criticism of Bev Harris and her findings, at this point, work to discredit the whole issue of BBV and may work to prevent the necessary investigations. In other words, you may helping us to shoot ourselves in the foot.
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #195
203. It's her own behavior that's the problem. What good is the work
when she runs around making threats everywhere? It happened here that we all could see, we now learn it was happening much more than we realized and the only media personality giving us coverage shut the door because of threats. It's a pattern. It's a problem.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #195
272. Seriously! I'm sorry,
but it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth to see someone incessantly diss Bev like their life or happiness or self esteem depends on it.

The moderator spoke his peace, made the facts known and has settled the matter but the OP is still yapping away twisting the knife.

Sorta like the swift boat people still slamming Kerry even though the elction is over and they *apparently* succeeded.

It's creepy and really indicates vindictiveness. An ugly thing to behold, I think.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #272
280. Ugly? Many here were attacked - threatened with law suits, slimed
called freepers. For me it was an ommense frustration to see the issue I care so much about being used as a cash registered by someone killing its credibility. Truth matters to me.
So, if a swift boater parallel comes to mind, the shoe is on the foot of the lawsuit happy, not the ones saying: "Finally! After years and years of being slimed, the truth is acnowledged!"
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #280
295. allegations
are just that. Post some substance where money was used improperly, where Bev was out shopping instead of looking for fraud, or name a lawsuit that has been presented to someone.

So far, all I see is posts where she acts cocky, has a temper problem, doesn't always come across as diplomatic and is overly possessive of her company. I have yet to seen any impropriety proven.

Face it, she is credible because she has brought the truth of the matter to light: the votes can, have and will be manipulated in black boxes, are you claiimng she had nothing to do with that research?

Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #295
298. Felt The Need To Expand For You
"Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history"

Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history for the better.

Hitler was an arrogant ass that changed history too, just wanted to clarify.

:)
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #298
340. Camparing Bev to Hitler????
only illustrates youryour completely distorted view on the issue, and was totally out of line quite frankly. Bev May have issues but to comapare them with the nameless one who caused the death of millions is beyond the pale.

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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #340
342. Sighhhhhhhh
There was NO comparison made to Bev and Hitler, and I'd love to see you prove that one.

It was just a point that you supplied an incomplete point, and I was illustrating how. Sheesh.

:eyes:

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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #342
358. Proof. (Like playing whack-a-mole)
>>There was NO comparison made to Bev and Hitler, and I'd love to see you prove that one.<<

Sure.

Me:
"Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history"

You:
"Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history for the better.

Hitler was an arrogant ass that changed history too, just wanted to clarify."

Webster:
Main Entry: comparison
Pronunciation: k&m-'par-&-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French comparaison, from Latin comparation-, comparatio, from comparare
Date: 14th century
1 : the act or process of comparing: as a : the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another b : an examination of two or more items to establish similarities and dissimilarities

Any other questions?
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #358
361. Yup
Where Does It Say Bev anywhere.

If you actually read in context, you would see that your quote was meant to show that though arrogant, Bev could still change history. I knew you meant for the better, so I was doing you a favor by extending your quote to further show the context of what you meant, and to offer how someone could turn your quote against you by not having the addition to the quote.

My original post was in your FAVOR. But don't expect other's of mine to you in the future to be.

:dunce:
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #361
376. I think Tailgunner Joe McCarthy is a good Bev comparison.
He brought his own self down. He was led the anti-Communist movement not because he truly believed in the movement, but so he could gain noteriety. He was very active as a Communist hunter, but only for personal gain. His megalomania eventually brought his career, and not much later his life, to a halt.
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #376
384. Maddy,
You rock, you know that?

-as
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #384
393. Thanks!
:toast:
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #376
386. Love The Analogy/Imagery n/t
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #376
408. Now that
would be a fair comparison.

See how easy that is, IAMREALITY?

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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #361
406. And again. .
>>Where Does It Say Bev anywhere.

If you actually read in context, you would see that your quote was meant to show that though arrogant, Bev could still change history. I knew you meant for the better, so I was doing you a favor by extending your quote to further show the context of what you meant, and to offer how someone could turn your quote against you by not having the addition to the quote.

My original post was in your FAVOR. But don't expect other's of mine to you in the future to be.<<

Oh please. You meant it exactly how it sounded, why obfuscate?

As for being in my favor, I'm not looking for favors, I'm looking for REGIME CHANGE! Stop losing sight of the bigger picture.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #295
300. How about look at it this way
"Face it, she is credible because she has brought the truth of the matter to light: the votes can, have and will be manipulated in black boxes, are you claiimng she had nothing to do with that research?"

Nobody is claiming that. To the contrary, most DU'ers have acknowledged her good WORK.

"So far, all I see is posts where she acts cocky, has a temper problem, doesn't always come across as diplomatic and is overly possessive of her company. I have yet to seen any impropriety proven."

And this isn't a huge problem? Ask 100 people you know, average people who spend their free time gardening instead of online if they ever heard of Bev Harris. 99% (if you're lucky to get that many) will tell you they never heard of her or BBV.org. And her attitude is part of the reason for that.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #300
421. OK
>>And this isn't a huge problem? Ask 100 people you know, average people who spend their free time gardening instead of online if they ever heard of Bev Harris. 99% (if you're lucky to get that many) will tell you they never heard of her or BBV.org. And her attitude is part of the reason for that.<<


All the people I know have heard of her b/c I hooked them up in the wee hours of Novemeber 4th, after kerry conceded on the 3rd. <g>I had no idea about Bev and BBV until that regretable night when someone in another forum told me of the possibility of the vote being hacked on a large scale. I found three solid links, two from scoop and the BBV which I thought were the most comprehensive detailed summaries that folks would easliy understand. I passed them on to dozens, and dozens of people and message boards.

Now, to say that no one has ever heard of her (partly)*because* of her is unfair. Put the blame where it's due: on the corporate media who have a vested interest in Bush winning the election, and the complacency of the people, including myself, who heard vague references in the past but thought, there's no way they'd actually get away with it and besides, Kerry will have all those lawyers.

What I see from the outside looking in is a woman who has a control problem and a movement who wants has a problem with her problem in a personal way. Her work is solid, but her anger tantrums are problematic.

If I didn't come here, I'd be none the wiser. Except for Oberman, who I happen to trust about as much as the Daily News, is not an investigative reporter, he is a former sportscaster with an hour slot on MSNBC comprised mainly of tabloid news, spun to be enetertaining. He has hundreds or thousands of DU'ers emailing and calling and he sees an oppurtunity to hike ratings, and that's what he gets paid for. MSM, in my mind, is serious reporting that comes from NYT, WP, NewsHour, the evening news with Rather, or 60 Minutes, along those lines. Mainstream; most widely read or viewed and respected. Oberman doesn't fit that category and most of the gardening people only pay attention to those mentioned sources. What Oberman reports is what ya'll tell him to report, as far as I can see. I have yet to hear him come up with any independant work of his own.

Bev has a legitimate place in this . . . history in the making. It is entirely possible to take the best and leave the rest. We do it all the time with activists who make a difference. I just don't think all this bashing will help. She's got a personality problem but has her soles to the pavement, so let's keep the dialogue open keep it on a need to know basis only. Just the facts' Bev, just the facts.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #421
424. You and I agree more than we disagree
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 10:48 PM by AmyCrat
I said *partly* for a reason. She had an invitation to appear on a prime-time main stream media program that was withdrawn due to her own beligerent behavior.

I know the corporate media is also *partly* to blame. Hence the reason we are barely getting coverage except on Keith Olbermann. Which is why it makes it so incredibly sad she burnt that bridge (at least for now -- I still have hopes it could get cleared up if she swallowed some pride).

"Her work is solid, but her anger tantrums are problematic."

You and I agree ;)

I also agree she does have a ligitimate place in all this. Never said she didn't. To the contrary, I keep driving home this issue because my HOPE is that she will do some serious mirror looking and say "ya know what, maybe I SHOULD get a good PR person to help with this -- maybe I SHOULD keep my mouth shut in a given situation until my blood pressure drops just a bit." Her personality problem isn't unfixable, but it has the potential to REALLY discredit her -- and the whole movement (in the corporate media eyes).
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #421
425. Olbermann was a sportscaster, Bev was a"Clinton Cigar" salesperson.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 10:49 PM by Maddy McCall
So what's your point?

And, let me add that Bev claimed that she never even voted until 2000, yet she's "leading the charge for democracy."

If anyone has a dubious past....well, it ain't Olbermann.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #425
670. Hmmm....
Playing the devil's advocate here...
I didn't vote until 2000 either and I think I'd be perfectly capable of leading the charge... LOL... Of course I didn't even turn 18 until after the presidential election, so.... Just thought I'd point out the LARGE hole in that argument.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #421
515. While Bev was selling those Clinton Cigars...
...Olbermann was telling MSNBC that he was tired of covering the Lewinsky story.

He discusses the situation here: http://www.news.cornell.edu/campus/Olbermann_speech.htm... It's long, but you should read it before bashing Olbermann.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #515
539. nice article
"life is defined by how much you improve the lives of others" -KO

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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #295
371. Allegations, my sweet ass!
Since you are a noobie, maybe it would behoove you to acquaint yourself with Bev's history here. Get settled in for a long night's reading.

Oh, and by the way, you asked me, in a thread that was eventually locked because of flaming, if I ever get sleep. Here's my response--No, I don't get much sleep. But I had been away at DU during the day yesterday taking my PhD written comps in history. You know, in history, you learn to examine source materials as objectively as possible, and then to reach a conclusion. That's what I did with these threads below, and through other observances of Bev's behavior. When bev releases a financial statement, I'll make rational interpretations there, too, but at this point, we only have her past behavior to go on. And, by the way, she is a 501c3, so she should present financial records to anyone who requests them. Wish her organization was as transparent as we all wish the government was.

Check these out:

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #371
426. Now this sheds some light.
And it's a lot of reading. So she turned capitalist? That is regrettable. If you prove it, or if it is proven, I will buy you dinner.
The only thing I despise more than threads that trash seemingly hard working folks who aren't there to defend themselves is people who get corrupt with money and power from the folks who trust them. Big difference between that and getting pissy and threatening to sue.

I'm going to read these links.

Thanks.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #371
531. After hours of reading
really really interesting stuff, it seems that Bev is duplicitous, self serving, and paranoid.

I don't see much indication of her financially gaining from all of this, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Even if she isn't, she has gained in fame, if not noteriety. That changes people too.

Perspective is everything, and again, as an impartial observer, what I'm gleaming from the threads you provided is that David gathered very sensitive info on Diebold that put them at risk at some point. I would like to know more about this if anyone can provide a link. Did this contibute to Bev's paranoia and her subsequent turning on her comrades? I don't know, there's a lot to digest in all of this.And this may come from left field, but is she on any medication? Anti-depressants, that sort of thing? Because that also can be a factor in erratic behavior.

But mostly, what I gather is that you have two sides to this infighting, and quite honestly, both sides -- like Althecat and Plan9 and Bev- present themselves so professionally and articulately and honestly that it is really hard to dismiss either as being "incredible" except that the opposers to Bev in the links you provided outnumber the defenders AND they shy away from nothing, as Bev has a pattern of doing. So, if I were to bet money (or dinner) or if I were a mediator, I would tend to weigh in favor of Bev's oppostion.

As an aside, I just read this:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.c...

and no mention of the people in DU, or her being banned. I see the pattern of ignoring you folks again just as in the provided links by Maddy.


Conclusion: She's the most recognized name wrt BBV, and those who aided in her rise to 'infamy' have basically witnessed their efforts lose credibility in recent days because of her temperment and inability to be authentically proffessional as opposed to quasi- proffessional. It's a damn shame. Your grievances are legitimate, Bev's investigative work is legitimate, but separating Bev harris from BBV is a divorce that is ugly and dissappointing and harmful to the cause itself.

I appreciate the efforts all you folks and a huge Apology for being so harsh and critical without the facts.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #531
568. Apology happily accepted
I am greatly relieved to see that the facts can be persuasive.

To address some of your questions/points

1) Bev became increasingly erratic as the issue grew in noteriety. I ascribed this to the pressure of the work, and made allowances. However, as time went on, I found myself defending her allies (from Roxanne to Avi Rubin) from Bev's increasing belief that they were out to "steal her work" and "make money" or that people were hacking her computer or tapping her phone or breaking into her house. I had numerous conversations about problems with her computer (I am a systems engineer and have done phone tech support for eight years) and what Bev was ascribing to "enemy action" was Windows being Windows. Bev had a very tenuous grasp of computer issues, which did improve with time, but her natural paranoia was always willing to see evil intent where I just saw incompetence.

2) I am not qualified to judge Bev's mental state, but I will say that in my opinion a medical/psych evaluation would be in order.

3) Re: links provided. You have pretty much got all the links I am aware of. Bev didn't fare well in these exchanges because her own words came back to contradict her. She was invited to provide evidence backing up her accusations and defenses on numerous occasions but never did so. She couldn't as the evidence wasn't there to support her claims. I kept ALL my email both from and to Bev, so I am quite aware what she has in the way supporting her outrageous claims.

Much has been made of the reliability of Bev's early work, but consider: The early work was when Bev had numerous technically competent people working with her. If you look at her work since they all left (after March 2004) you will see lots of unsubstantiated claims, no hard evidence

4) Bev has deliberately changed the record to erase her own perfidy and to denigrate and/or diminish the roles of others. Two quick examples for you. Look at the book PDFs on her site and compare them to mine:

a)You will note the introduction is missing from Bev's set. This is because it contains the title page with my name as contributing writer (she also expunged my name from the cover GIF and the Amazon listing). It also contains credits for Lex Alexander and Brad Guigar (Editor and cover artist). You can read the missing section here:

http://thoughtcrimes.org/bbv/bbv_intro.pdf

b) Compare chapter nine, page 96 of the original where Bev describes the finding of the Diebold FTP site:

I clicked press releases to see what kind of claims this company was making. Then I clicked all the links. I clicked the link called FTP and it took me to a page full of files.

I called David Allen. What am I looking at?

He took one look at the page and snorted incredulously. Incredible
stupidity.


(For the record, what I actually said was "The keys to the candy store." Bev decided this was "dangerous" and changed it.)

Click Pub he suggested. We did. What follows is the first detailed look ever into a secret voting system.

http://thoughtcrimes.org/bbv/bbv_chapter-9.pdf

Now, compare it to the version on Bev's site:

I clicked all the links, including the link called FTP, which took me to a page full of files.

I called David Allen. What am I looking at?

Allen admitted that the file names, like BS4 and GA-062802
meant nothing to him, but we both knew that this was an online file stash. He snorted and offered a comment: Incredible stupidity.

Id found the crown jewels for Diebold Election Systems. What
follows is the first detailed look ever into a secret voting system.


(Note: When this first started to get pointed out, the PDF version on Bev's site got moved WAY down the page).

This is just one example of MANY of Bev's actions to cast herself in a favorable light at the expense of others. Watch "Invisible Ballots" and you will hear from Bev's own mouth thnigs she now denies.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #568
713. Integrity matters
You've got it.

Absolutely.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #531
578. No apology necessary to me
I just want everyone to know what has happened in the past so that we can lose the burdens of the movement and move on to the real work of exposure to fraudulent elections.

Best wishes. :-)
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #578
712. Same
as my daughter would say. ;-)
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #295
395. You ask for proof
but if you have been actually READING the various threads around here you would have found links to Bev's vicious behaviour. You demand proof for what reason? So we can convince you? Some how I don't think a video taped confession from Bev herself would convince you.

If I had a dime for every post where people have demanded proof when they are already swimming in it I could afford the legal bill Bev has caused me.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #395
427. chill
there are literally thousands of posts, you can't expect anyone to read everything, I do have a day job and three kids, none of whom drive.

I found the links posted by Maddy yesterday and the day before to be insignificant, but the ones I just came across now are a different story. And I have checked out your website, but did not have time to search it for the relevant info.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #295
736. Blah, blah, blah...
...jeesuz, but you Bev Bots are so ridiculously transparent.
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #272
289. Let me tell you something.
I've been posting here since back in 2000. I've gotten into disagreements with people here, had differences of opinion plenty of times, but was always treated with respect, even though there was disagreements between two DUers.

I have had differences with Bev supporters as well. Do you know what the difference is?

No DUer ever accused me of being a freeper or an RNC mole until I disagreed with a Bev Harris supporter. And I heard it every time I veered off the Bev Harris party line.

I haven't even posted here too much over the past few months, because I was sick and fucking tired of being accused of being a 'freeper' or 'on Rove's payroll' or other snide bullshit accusations from Bev supporters.

So in that respect, I'm goddam glad this has happened. Maybe people will start to think twice before they roll out the freeper accusations.

And I'm not in a forgiving mood when it comes to people who don't even know me accusing me of being something I'm not. If you think that's wrong, so be it.

-as

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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #289
462. Someone accused YOU of being a freeper? Wow. :)
Naw, americanstranger and Maddy BOTH rock.

:yourock:
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #272
362. To whom do you refer as "the OP?"
Just curious.
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Faun Otter Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #272
385. Read some archives -
and use Google with words like 'diebold' and the names of some posters here and you will understand that Harris took a lot of other people's work and claimed credit for it, she made unsupported and unsupportable claims, when challenged on those claims Harris attacked the very people who had done all the work. For double bonus points, try comparing the printed version of BBV and the PDF version on Harris' site. Orwell would have chuckled at such revisionist history.

She is a nut case who has set back our credibility on vote related issues. It isn't your fault you don't know these things but it behooves you to gather some information for yourself before jumping to conclusions and posting insulting messages to this board.

Faun
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #385
532. Ah, you are right
I totally apologize to all: Maddy, David, you, and IAMReality (sort of)--he did compare bev to hitler, but I get whe s/he is coming from now.

If I had been one of you, my reaction would be the same.

I have a serious problem with people who lie -- my ex is pathological and I have to deal with it all the time, it's maddening and really makes you cynical and jaded. Hence my huge problem with Bush and my own activism. But perspective is everything, so thanks for enlightening me.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #532
545. Donailin LOL
I do not lie, EVER. Please understand I was NOT comparing her to hitler, I had good intentions with that post, my god! LOL
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #545
716. My God
smokes peace pipe with your god. ;-)
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Faun Otter Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #532
583. Thanks for taking the time to read
It is so rare to see a rational approach to an emotional topic.

Thanks also for taking the time (and courage) to correct your position.
It is appreciated.

Faun
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #583
715. No problem., Peace!
If we can't make peace here, the where?
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #175
240. I am beginning to think "yup"
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #171
177. You should be asking her why she behaves this way.
Attention? Look at what she's done with the only MSM reporter covering this story. Frankly, she runs the risk of doing more harm than good if she can't act properly, regardless of how much fraud she unearths.
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #177
179. Do you think we'll lose people over this?
Or will they see that the Olbermann report looks a lot like the experience here...???
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #171
182. Appear to be in the distinct minority KB
The juries in and it's not looking good for BH
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #171
185. I 'm sure there are two sides to the story.....
that said; Elad was unbias in his explaination.....I have admired Bev's dedication and work but this other side; ....the "Two Faces of Bev"; gave the DU administrators no other choice.

I'm dumb-founded as how an intelligent activist can shoot her own foot off .....threatening DU.

She is biting the hand that feeds her. :shrug:
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #185
204. She has obvious delegation of authority problems
She should have her head inside those machines, her eyes glued to voting tapes, her ears tuned to pick up inconsistencies in official explanations and leave the PR and media communications to someone else. Geeking computer information and investigations are her strongpoints. But her communications skills are nonexistent. Unfortunately it is quite apparent that she is a control freak and will never allow anyone else a position of public prominence in the organization who could take over those duties.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #185
262. Biting?
Some of us only have bloody stumps left. <g>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #171
201. once again, democratic in-fighting
Maybe it's congenital? lots of very able people have bad tempers. I didn't see all this stuff, just seems like a bad time to be making enemies, having confrontations.

There are those who, once riled and angry, do not ever forget (I am married to one of those). Then, there are those who get riled all the time, say stupid things, and then forget them. I wonder if that's Bev Harris?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #201
237. I can tell your from first-hand experience
That Bev Harris neither forgives nor forgets those she decides have crossed her.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #237
261. never forgetting
Well, then, she's kind of like my husband, who never forgets any slight, no matter how unintentional.

My mom was a real fighter. She was like Bev, she threatened to sue people all the time. But she was also quite an incredible force in the good fights. (She died about a year and a half ago.) And I could tell when she was getting depressed, because then she would get REALLY MEAN. NASTY.

But she contributed a lot to the forward development of some important things, and she wasn't a bad person. She really did a lot of good.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are in a touchy situation all around, and as much forgiving and forgetting as anyone can call upon themselves to do, the more better for all of us... I've been called temperamental a time or two myself. Maybe that's why I try to defend the temperamental. But I'm less apt to lose my temper now than years ago.

Then again, I do not have your repository of bad feeling. (I can also have a very hard time forgiving and forgetting myself. Unless I just have to, because I live with the person. Then it's over pretty quickly.)

No matter how ridiculous her threats are, how bad her temper is (and it probably isn't ego, or at least not a strong one; more likely she's -- I guess I can't say it, can I?), she is not the adversary.

But look here, everyone is talking, talking, talking about Bev and the big fight, instead of what we can be doing to save our country from the really bad guys, who have hijacked our entire world. I feel like I'm caught up in a very bad dream. One that is going to have real repercussions. For my little girl.

The bushies sure aren't concerned about the next seven generations.

I don't know how to mobilize people. They are despondent. Feel like nothing can be done. I don't believe that. But for some reason I am just about the only person I know who is completely obsessed with the election, and how we can expose what happened.

Sorry for going on for so long.

Ellen
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #261
267. Not at all,
check your email.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #201
269. It's too important to leave to someone
who 'says stupid things and then forgets them.'

In order to gain a higher profile for the entire issue, we need someone out front who will work to cultivate good relations with the media.

Threatening the employees of the one guy on TV who wanted to help simply ain't the way to do it, IMO.

And Olbermann is right - stunts like the LePore confrontation ('serving' fake 'papers' after the real legal papers had been served earlier in the day by a real process server, with a video camera running the entire time) do nothing but make Bev Harris look like a loon.

And if the presumed figurehead of a movement looks like a loon, then everyone following that figurehead looks like a loon, as well.

The issue is too damned important for that.

-as
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #171
260. The e-voting fraud issue is/was always bigger than Bev, Countless DU-ers
are working on it and more credible spokesmen emerged to fill the lack of leadership that allowed the mooching of the bereaved. Like the anti-war movement outgrew Ramsey Clark, so did the voting rights movement finally passed the kooks stage. As Earl G's post clearly states, DU will continue to pursue the issue. It'll just have to do it without threats of lawsuits, "OMG!" breathless empty statements and grandiosity. DU will do all right - and hopefully the voting rights will be advanced.
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
178. Thanks for a reasoned and gracious explanation. DU is the best managed
site on the Internets. You guys have done incredible work here, and make other boards look like hopeless amateurs in comparison.

I would hope to see others here follow the example your dignified post has provided us.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
192. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
indigo11153 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
198. Good work
It had to happen.
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americanwhothinks Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
200. Good Call.... Personal Bickering is a Sad, Absurd Waste of Time!! n/t
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
202. I support the DU admins 100% on their decision
It's very unfortunate that such a crucial issue became tied up in some issues of ego and control.

I think that the DU admins have done a good job of not placing blame, but stepping in when they had to and making the hard decisions.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #202
215. but its a sad day for those of us in FLA!!!
what is truely sad is , those of us in Fla have been subject of someone who filed too late, and kept everyone out , and this story here of fraud has now been made insignificant.
many of us offered help, we offered to do garbage checks, and checking numbers , and we were frozen out, we were told our names were on their files, and we would get calls when they needed our help..well we are still awaiting the calls...and in the mean time..the records and proof have now been marginalized ..and any proof there was is now more than likely gone..
what should have been a group venture for the truth, was controlled by a party of 3 with the rest of us who were more than willing to put ourselves in the fray to get the truth..were shut out!!
i wrote ,i offered ,i got teams of people ready to go..i had so many send emails to bev..and got one reply from votergate....(none from bev)...that i was on their files..under a different name and sn...we believed their was hope to finally get the help to get our votes counted and a legitimate election or the proof of an illegitimate election...now i feel doubly used...first by our government and now by possibly someone going to use what happened here for someones profit...it has been like a double kick in the stomach.

my husband and i have known keith a very long time..years and years in fact...he is a man of incredible integrity ..not many of those in the media industry anymore!! i salute you keith!! No more honest man in the biz!! and he has taken great risks in this political climate to make a stand for truth in reporting and as an american, and a man!!

he told me some things i could not and would not repeat here..but EARL...you did the right thing!!
Thank you EARL...for standing with the utmost integrity.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #215
221. You're not the first to talk about shut-out volunteers
I know it can be overwhelming to consider deligating to lots and lots of volunteers, but the alternative (3 people doing everything) has hurt her, and the whole effort. You're not the first to talk about the specifics of that.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #215
226. Now THAT's a tragedy.
And perhaps the saddest thing I have heard so far. That REAL WORK has gone undone....
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #215
248. Please give Keith O our regards. His work is greatly appreciated.
:hi:
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #248
283. Yes, and tell him that
we luuuuurve him.... :loveya:
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #215
277. since you know him, a silly question?

Was he once upon a time of the thespian persuasion? Knows a little bit too much Shakespeare for your average sports whatchacallit!
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #277
380. answer to your question
Keith Olbermann (who co-hosted "SportsCenter" with Patrick for five-and-half years) goes even farther. "The one thing most young people seem to bring to broadcasting these days is that they really don't know anything but broadcasting. They should have some general knowledge. You never know when that reference to Shakespeare is going to be useful. You never know when you're going to suddenly be switched from sports to news, and you are going to have to know where Iraq is."

keith went to cornell!!
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #215
755. Thanks for sharing this
Don't give up on Florida. We are working on fraud here in Missouri, just average citizens, sans camera. Maybe it's better this all happened before mainstream media jumped on board. Today, the Chicago Trib has broken its silence and so others will likely follow. Now that more people's eyes are open to Ms. Harris's antics, it will not look like our proof for voter fraud lies in the hands of an unstable egomaniac. She does not have the smoking gun. The smoking guns are lying all around this country just waiting to be found by the average concerned citizen.

Keith has always been above the fray. Love him! I've e-mailed everyday that he reported thanking him. I recently sent him info with issues that are quite real. It has been hard to know who to trust with the information. But, I decided to send it to him and maybe he'll know what to do with it.
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gorbal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #202
222. WOW!
I have been supporting Bev on various threads, (in a nice way) but I did not realize the history you guys have with her. I wasn't even close, jeez!

Complex conspiracy scenarious are playing in my mind now that I'm not sure I want to share, but I'm sure you can guess. Some of these scenarios can be so complex that the mind can pass them off as impossible for the sake of it's own saninty, even if it isn't.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #222
247. Believe me, you're not the only one.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
205. I agree with Earl's decision 100%
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 04:43 PM by MichaelHarris
not that it matters but the infighting is just too much to bear. Also I never liked showboats.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
209. Well it had to be done. I respect this decision by the owners of DU.
Although I still support Bev and wish her well, I just can't get over her selling Clinton cigars. It irks me that she profited from my beloved Clinton's bogus impeachment.

I started posting in DU in 2001 (I think), does anyone know if Bev ever posted comments about anything else (Clinton, Gore, Hillary, Democrats in general) or anything anti-Bush besides BBV?
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #209
212. ya know, when I told this to my husband last night...
He was more shocked than I expected to be, and was like "that's really bad!" (regarding the Clinton Cigars). I really don't have much to say about it either way, who knows what to think... but I can see how some people would say it proves that she jumps on an issue to make money (not that I buy that, but who knows).
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #212
365. It's the tackiest damn thing I've ever heard
I would expect an Ann Coulter to do something truly ugly, vile, crude and lewd like that, but NOT ... well, you get the picture.

People are also forgetting that Bev is an INDEPENDENT, not a Democrat or even Green. Of course, that's helpful in the 501(c)(3) sense, but it's something I've wondered about myself, especially after I learned about the cigar thing.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #365
367. uh uh... should I admit this...
I'm a registered Independent (but I usually vote Democrat)

: O8) or :evilfrown:
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
218. THANK YOU!!!!!
I am so fucking glad you did this! You don't know how much I hate being called a freeper for trying to be reasonable around here. I'm sure others feel the same way!

Bev lures reactionaries into following her agenda, much in the same way that Rove lures reactionaries into following Bush. Granted, Bev's cause is legitimate, it's either fuck or walk with her. You're either with her or against her. If you don't agree 100% with her actions, you are a freeper.

This kind of black and white thinking has to stop around here, and this post is just what DU needed. There is much to be said for keeping an open discussion forum, but things had gotten out of hand a while ago.

This is all too sad, though. It's a shame to see all Bev's hard work go to no use because she can't share any of the credit with other people. It will be her own undoing, though.

In any event, THANK YOU!!!
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
224. Good call - not a minute too soon. Issues over personalities -
that was the permanent theme of all my postings.
You cannot go wrong if your allegiance is to the truth rather than people, it's easier to avoid getting conned and your disappointments are shorter lived.
back to the voter fraud then!
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
225. I applaud your decision.
I'm still new here but I had reservations about all the fund raising for Bev. I donated to others including the Glibs but never to BBV.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
231. Well that settles it for me
thanks Mr. Earl G
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #231
238. Do you have something else to say?
For the rest of us?
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cayanne Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
232. Bev Harris is self destructive...
and is her own worst enemy.

Her attacks against other DUers were horrific and her false attacks against David (her former publisher) were unconscionable. I know because I've been here prior to Bev Harris' first post and was witness to the entire unfortunate episodes.

I gladly thank the DU administrators for making what I believe is the right decision.
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dawn_fayhe Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
235. Bev
Why the harshness? This is all the fault of Conservatives!!! ugh!!!!!!!!!
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #235
239. Dawn, I am just curious
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 05:26 PM by plan9_pub
You have six posts, so welcome to DU.

That said, how did you come to DU. We are seeing a BUNCH of BRAND NEW people joining up and posting on this thread, mostly in defense of Bev? Is someone asking folks to come over here, telling you that "conservatives" at DU are attacking Bev?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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dawn_fayhe Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #239
243. HI THERE!
No, I have been here for a few days posting :) I love it here everyone is friendly. Mostly LOL!!

Anyways, I came to this thread because I heard Bev might sue the DU.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #243
271. Ah, okay
Thanks, and again welcome.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #235
241. Which conservatives?
Sounds like she did it to herself, from what I read.
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Fud Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #241
522. If the work was so "important" to her.
Why was she spending so much time posting here the last few days? You would think if someone was really serious about this wouldn't be messing around message boards and get to work on the issue.

Christ it's Dec 4 and she has nothing better to do than still trying to promote herself until the ban!

I thought the ban would of happened last week or earlier with all the antics going on. Bartcoppers were on to her over a year and a half ago on this issue and how she would tarnish the whole bbv subject.

My post count is low so pls don't call me a newbie or a freeper...long time reader but busy on another forum.

I was kind of shocked by that quote below that David posted how she associates with freepers. Jim March is a gun nut and there is a pic of him somewhere pointing a pistol with a caption something to the effect of "shoot to kill".

So my hope is this long saga can be put behind and energys put forward to people that are doing real work and not showboating.

Bev sorry to say it but you dug your own grave....been nice knowing you...NOT.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #235
265. You want to see whose fault this is? Read these DU archival links:
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #265
281. Wow.
That's some interesting reading....
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #265
304. Holy crap...who's that Melinda on the second to last thread?
She needs to smoke a joint or something.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #304
402. You buyin?
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 09:53 PM by Melinda
I'm the same gal I was in the 1st thread of that group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I well remember how Bev went after Roxanne.......


I felt at the time that Bev had to have been HUGE amount of stress as the things she accused Roxanne of (looking to profit by filing a qui tam and looking to sabatoge Bev's efforts) were beyond the pale in their sheer unreasonableness.

I repeatedly pleaded with Bev to NOT do that here, and to retract her ugly, ugly words... she was viciously horrible in the things she said, and she HURT many people who had worked very hard in what we all believed at the time to be our common cause. Bev's diatribe resulted in her being banned from DU along with Roxanne - Bev promised to play nice and was subsequently reinstated here, while Roxanne left for good.

Rox went on to work her ass off in GA without seeking compensation or, as she had been accused of by Bev, filing the same Qui Tam that Bev swore up and down she would NEVER file, and that she would never seek compensation.

To say I am shocked at this revelation would be an understatement. All I can and will do at this point is to nod to both Rox and Eloriel - spot on call ladies - and make certain that I distance myself from Ms Harris in the future.

I once trusted you Bev; now I want nothing to do with you.

-end-


As you can see, I don't tolerate bullshit well. Today is a good day -Bev and her ego are gone, gone gone. Now, pass that over here, thanks.

:toast:
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #402
431. Okay--I will buy!
:smoke:

Pass
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #265
317. Sad. Really. Really. Sad.
n/t
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Bethany Rockafella Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #265
440. Thanks for this. I have only read three of them so far. This is some good
shit!
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HeyManThatsCool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
242. Excellent Post
Thank you so much Earl for posting.
That was extrememly well written & easy enough for everyone to understand.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
245. Kick her while she's down, eh?
Free Bev Harris!
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #245
249. You jest?
Bev did this to herself. No one did it to her.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #249
290. urgh - never mind
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 07:20 PM by taken
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #245
251. Down? As in "down in Florida"?
Free Bev Harris? No. Expensive Bev Harris.
"She take your money" as in that "Matilda" song
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
266. Thanks so much EarlG
I'm glad you guys have been so fair to everyone, but you have to cover your asses. Once someone has threatened you legally you have to be careful. She threatened to sue more people than Bill O'Reilly walking from the studio to the limo - sueing people along the way..

I keep thinking this reminds me of a book I read in High School - a metaphor for "The Scarlet Letter"..

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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
282. Whatever her personality issues are, we can't afford to ban Bev Harris
Not at this critical juncture. I love DU, respect Skinner and EarlG, but I think erratic, inconsiderate behavior, while it can difficult and unpleasant to deal with, is worth overlooking when the stakes are as high as they are right now. Bev Harris, from some of the descriptions here, may well be the biggest bitch on the planet - but she has helped to uncover the mechanism by which the biggest fraud in the history of our nation appears to have occured, and her work has propelled a movement to try to save the world's most celebrated democracy. Her difficult personality notwithstanding, I still liken her legacy to Poland's Lech Walesa - and for all I know, personality wise, Walesa may be the biggest asshole on the planet - but I don't care. I want to stop the Bush Right Wing War Machine from destroying our cherished constitution and our democratic system of government, and perhaps even destroying the world.

If I have to become an ally of the likes of a Joseph Stalin in order to defeat an even more evil enemy (which we've obviously done before) than I must be willing do just that. Personality clashes, legal threats, obnoxious behavior be damned! This is a fight we CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE, and we need every resource available to us! The contributions that Harris collected by way of the DU may well have been responsible for the fraud audit and lawsuits in Florida - which may prove to be a key element in uncovering the fraud nationally. What's done is done, but I wish we'd learn to toughen up - hold our noses, or do whatever we have to do to cope with each other and get the job done. I'm sure the other side doesn't find Tom Delay a pleasant character to do business with, but they murder us with him just the same. The fact of the matter is, this isn't a personality contest we're engaged in here, folks - it's a war. A nasty, brutal, ugly war, in which criminal, racist, and treasonous tactics are being employed with regularity. In the midst of such battles - with the control of the world's most powerful country at stake - sometimes a personality challenged General Patton comes in real handy.
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #282
286. Look at it another way...
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 07:14 PM by AmyCrat
Being banned from the DU forums will not keep her from being able to read the forums and do research.

Being banned from the DU forums will not inhibit her ability to do the work BBV.org is doing.

Being banned from the DU forums MAY make her see that beligerent behaviors (especially with people on YOUR side!) gets you no where good.

Being banned from the DU forums will give her more time to focus on the issue. She doesn't need to be engaging in arguments here.

And hopefully, maybe, being banned from the DU forums will make her see that the way your handle public relations is important. Getting "blackballed" by the main stream media, a popular democratic forum system, or anywhere else isn't good for the cause -- and ultimately, THAT is what's important.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #286
396. I disagree...
Being banned from the DU forums will not inhibit her ability to do the work BBV.org is doing.

It will make communicating the work to the large number of us who get our primary, up-to-the-minute news on such issues from DU much harder. It will reduce her visibility and that of BBV with progressives everywhere. Thus, it will make it far easier for the media as a whole to ignore and discount not only Bev Harris, but any abuses of the voting system this past election, and even the "verified voting" issue (the ones the admins claim to support) altogether.

And I can't see how this will have any effect other than making it easier for the G.O.P. to get away with whatever fraud they may have committed, and intend to continue committing.

:-(
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #396
403. um... I'm not sure
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 09:50 PM by AmyCrat
I'm not sure we were getting super speedy updates here, but I could be wrong.

Maybe they should update their own site more frequently... isn't that what they have it for?

And I didn't see anyone here saying they wouldn't still point to BBV.org as a resource for information.

The media, if they ignore her (or continue to) -- well maybe you should ask why rather than pointing a finger at DU. She shot HERSELF in the foot with the Olbermann thing... and she had NOT been banned from here at that point.

Like I said in another reply, if she's seen as a "loon" because of her own behavior, no one will give credit to the work. She should look to herself to make changes in how she interacts with her volunteers and the media. That's all anyone can hope for.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #403
474. I'm not implying that Bev is blameless...
...but it sure doesn't seem like anyone else around here is willing or able to do the work she's been doing. If there was, I might write this off as just another petty p*ss*ng match between people with an ego to match their dedication to the cause, and figure that we can do just as well with less static with her gone. As it is, though, I see Bev out doing something, while the rest of us just sit around and post "preaching to the choir" messages here.

:-(
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #474
477. lot of us are doing lots of things
I think you discredit a lot of people here who are doing GREAT work on this. Lots of great websites, resources, petitions, protest organizing, researching, going over numbers and statistics, writing letters, attending hearings, etc. etc. etc.

It's great Bev is out doing something. She just needs to learn to not get so hot-headed at the wrong people while doing it.
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Im with Rosey Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #477
528. I'm a newbie (see # posts)
but IMHO, it seems there are a lot of people that have been working extremely hard to bring facts out unto the open. I have been constantly amazed at the willingness to check details, do research, follow through on various areas of possible information, etc.
I think the bottom line is to make sure that all the "hard work" that is the signature of so many DU'ers doesn't go down the tubes along with BEV. It is very important that those DU'ers make sure others (not sure who,though)have all the info they have been giving to Bev. Don't let all that go to waste!!!
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #282
287. "An ally of the likes of Joseph Stalin"?
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 07:19 PM by Stand and Fight
Riiight....

Joseph Stalin helped engineer the deaths of countless numbers of people -- more than Adolf Hitler and certainly more than our piss-ant president, George "Dubya" Bush. So, that tells us that you will allow anyone to walk all over you just because they appear to be serving the larger cause. Well, sometimes people's ego hinder a movement more than they help it, and I adamantly feel that at this "critical juncture," it is imperative that we NOT do that. Especially when people in the main stream media are willing to cover the story, and decline to do so because of an erratic and eccentric ego driven personality. You say we cannot afford to lose this fight, and I don't think anyone here would disagree with that part of your argument. However, your argument borders on the absurd when you say we need every resource available to us when the person you are championing just burnt a bridge to a mainstream media personality -- the only one -- who has been covering this story form almost the very beginning. And you're very right on another of your points -- "Personality clashes, legal threats, obnoxious behavior be damned!" Exactly. That is the reason the moderators have made a most reasonable decision in light of Bev Harris' transgressions against our collective better interest. Rather than being concerned about the collective better interest the person whom you champion has threatened to bite the very hands that fed her and, much worst, ignored or neglected to contact those who have offered to lend our efforts greater numbers. Patton is a personal hero of mind, and you would do yourself a great service to actually study his life rather than drawing comparisons on moot poets. Bev Harris is no where near the champion of democracy as that great soldier -- regardless of his flamboyant personality tendencies. No, I believe the decision the moderators have made is wise and shall serve to further our collective interests. Having served in the army I can tell you that in the heat of battle the most successful warriors know to put aside their egos and put their teams before themselves. They know this because not doing so will result in defeat and worst yet death. Oh, one more than about Stalin... In the end it was his ego and paranoia that desired him and the communist movement he sought to spread.... Kinda makes you think.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #287
294. If you are an American, YOUR country was an ally of Joseph Stalin
In order to defeat Hitler's Nazi Germany!!! Duh!!
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #294
305. What? So what!
Your post makes no sense! What is it that you are trying to say? For one, I played no part in the decision to make him our ally, and he was only our ally once Germany turned on him. For another thing, Hitler betrayed his non-aggression pact with Stalin, invaded Russia with the commencement of "Operation Barbarossa," and then, ONLY THEN, did Joseph Stalin seek to join the Allies. So, I don't see what bearing your post has on the subject matter.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #294
419. Yeah, and then came the Cold War and the threat of...
and mutually assured destruction, US vs USSR. Stalin's brief alliance with Roosevelt/Truman proved to be not so beneficial in the end, didn't it?
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #282
288. Yeah, what you said. This is a sad day.
I don't like the banning at all.

Especially now.

Somewhere in the "bowels" of the regime, they are laughing.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #288
491. And that's why the 'gods'
gave us the ignore button/function.

reach out and touch someone.
you'll feel better.


peace,
dp
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IndyPriest Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #282
306. Elementary
I must say: I like your style!
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #282
404. Unbelievable
This is a fight we CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE

The why is Bev doing her damnedest to lost it?

If I have to become an ally of the likes of a Joseph Stalin in order to defeat an even more evil enemy.

Yes we did ally with Stalin to defeat Hitler, but if memory serves Stalin did not one year into the alliance start shooting American and British general's who disagreed with his strategy.

Let me try and spell this out for you in one sentence.

Bev Harris Is Not BBV Incarnate.

In the midst of such battles - with the control of the world's most powerful country at stake - sometimes a personality challenged General Patton comes in real handy.

In other words, the ends justify the means? To fight tyrants we must become tyrants? Are you by chance bucking for a job in the Bush administration?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
285. the good news is
that this is all happening still before the entire story actually breaks the mainstream media. it is better to get this overwith now, instead of say, in the middle of the Ohio recount, or during hearings in the congress.

at this point most people in the country still have no idea who Bev Harris is. By the time the flood of events and actions break down the walls of the media, this will be old news. All they'll be able to say is that Bev has a hard time getting along with other people, or perhaps she has a big ego. There won't be a big controversy going on to divert attention from the real issue.
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #285
293. precisely !
Just a question for the Admins.

Does the ban include Andy Stephenson ?
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #293
398. it dosn't look lik he's been banned n/t
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
296. Thank you EarlG, Elad, Skinner, and all DUers that have contributed
:grouphug:

Well, I lost a lot of sleep over this issue, especially last night, but I am glad things are getting cleared up before it's too late. We are at the most critical point in the battle to save the electoral process.

I have been a daily reader at DU since 2001 and I stand by the veracity of longtime posters, many of whom are on this thread. I have dissected and deconstructed the debates, conversations and news headlines posted here - Derrida would be proud - hoping to get a handle on things.

My contributions are minuscule, but at least they are untainted by greed and the need for personal accolade. This applies to all the DUers that have helped in their own way. We are a collective, and as such, to quote Howard Dean, "we have the power!"

With great humility, I thank everyone for working to save the dream that is America.

I love you all.

peace from New Orleans
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vol5516 Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
297. ??
Does anyone else see the bipolarity in Ms Harris????
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #297
407. It has been speculated on
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #297
636. I suggested it the other day, and was told I was projecting!
She clearly has some personality disorder listed in the DSM, probably several.
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krag Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
299. Don't Understand - Why Ban Bev Now?
At this moment, when we are at such a critical juncture concerning the future of the country?

Even if Bev somehow singlehandedly burns DU to the ground, isn't that a worthwhile sacrifice if something posted here might lead to the breakthrough in this fraudulent election we're all looking for?

I love these boards, DKos and DU, but they seem a little bit full of themselves. Isn't preserving democracy a little more important than preserving DemocraticUnderground.com?
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #299
301. Not About That
I'm sure any important developments that come from her will still be posted or referenced here in the blink of an eye.

"Even if Bev somehow singlehandedly burns DU to the ground, isn't that a worthwhile sacrifice if something posted here might lead to the breakthrough in this fraudulent election we're all looking for?"

Absolutely Not
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #299
308. You're Completely Missing th e Point.
Go read the archives, read up her Bev's history, and then let's see what you have to say. It's a long complex story that led the moderators to make their decision. Your trying to jump in on the mix without knowing all the facts is like walking into an astrophysics class and attempting to give a verbal dissertation after having only read the class syllabus.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #308
316. GACK! An Academic Response when the person is really asking "Why Now?"
ayyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!
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IndyPriest Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #316
329. Thank you, KoKo. n/t
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #308
498. aaaccckkkk!
speaking of jumping into the mix, after your ...um...3 week experience here, you are now attempting to walk into the class and give instruction after reading 'the archives' ??

okay, you are 3.

dp
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #299
325. I agree 500 percent with you
NEVER fire anyone at a critical point in a project.

NEVER fire anyone without first having a better replacement!
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #325
400. Apparently, you know nothing about how projects work
Bev is a loon, and she had better goddamned well have proof. Even if she has proof, the MSM will never believe her, after she lies about the only reporter acknowledging this story.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #299
369. democracy may not survive W, but it can surely survive banning Bev
That's why being passionate about issues and not people is healthier - it helps you keep perspective.
besides, if you read the statement in the opening, preservation was not the point.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #369
377. LOL @ your header.
So true, so true.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
302. Thanks for doing this
I know you're going to catch a lot of hell from her supporters, but it was the right thing to do.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
307. Results of The Poll
Totally Agree with the banning -49% 41 votes

Totally Disagree with the banning - 11% 9 votes

LOOKS LIKE THE TOTALLY AGREE HAVE A MANDATE!

hehe

:hi:
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #307