Widespread Riots Erupt in Belfast

[fedsron2us]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5269303,00.html

From the TV pictures this looked like a serious outbreak of violence.

What with the London bombs, the growing debacle in Iraq, an impending energy crisis and now a resurgence of sectarian conflict in Ulster, it looks as though the problems are piling up thick and fast for the British government. Given the nasty outlook I wonder whether Blair may decide now is the smart time to quit.

[XanaDUer]

1. Glad that did not happen when I was there a few months ago...

:scared:

That's scary.

[D-Notice]

2. Let's hope

he does do the decent thing for once in his career

[mr blur]

3. Religious extremists beating the shit out of each other,

both claiming exclusive ownership of the same mythical being. Same as it ever was.

(And I know this has been going on for centuries, and I know that a succession of British governments have done nothing to sort it, but how could they? It started off over religion and it's still about religion. Seemingly worth dying for and worth killing for. )

[fedsron2us]

4. Not many replies to this post on the UK forum

but plenty of activity on this topic on the LBN board. This probably reflects the fact that most people in the UK just switch off completely when the issue of Northern Ireland comes up. By contrast there is no shortage of opinions from US posters on the subject. Unfortunately, a lot of the views expressed appear to be just atavistic retreads of the sectarian hatreds that already blight Northern Ireland. Some along the lines that all 'Irish Protestants are evil' just made me despair. Why are people who claim to have the best interests of the Irish people at heart so ill informed about their history. If they knew the subject better then they would know that, amongst the 'evil Protestants', were men such as Wolfe Tone and Charles Parnell who made heroic efforts to win independence for Ireland. It seems that people prefer repeating the tired old prejudices to engaging in any serious discussion on the provinces problems.

I don't know which attitude to the problems of Ulster I dislike most - British apathy or American ignorance

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. I'm not that sure what to say

I'd guess everyone here thinks the Orange Order are at best childish, at worst doing all this to purposely start a riot, and we'd all be happy for them to disband.

The Unionists should be well pleased with what they've got at the moment - NI still in the UK, the IRA announcing "armed struggle is over" (whatever the exact wording was). The Loyalists need cracking down on - there seems to be a steady trickle of stories of them attacking Catholics or each other. The Orange Order's whinging about how the police reacted is ridiculous.

[T_i_B]

6. Both sides are as bad as each other

But DUer's are as ever only too willing to take sides first and think later. :-(

And then there are the Israel/Palestine flame wars. :scared:

[tjwmason]

7. I think that many of us do not dare go near this on D.U.

I have sympathies for the Unionists - but ultimately I believe in self-determination as much for N.I. as for any other nation on earth. It becomes difficult for us to express an opinion round here - because anything other than complete support for the Sinn Fein line tends to result in flames.

That said - I cannot abide the Orange Order, it's entire purpose is anti-Catholicism and so as a Catholic it's hardly going to be my cup of tea.

[Guy_Montag]

19. I used to think the same of the Orange Order

but while visiting a friend in a small village in Co. Antrim, I went along to a charity auction to raise money for muscular dystrophy, organised by the local Orange Lodge.

Incidental, one of my friends took over the flute pupils of the first flute in an Orange band in Glasgow, when he moved elsewhere. He taught them & practiced with them, but didn't march with them because he was a Catholic.

When you get a little closer it all becomes a little more nuanced.

[Benbow]

8. First time the police have taken "live fire" in NI, according to BBC

If that means: first time that the police have been shot at (rather than ambushed or blown up), I am not sure that that is correct. Anyway, I think that the Orange Order are behaving like neanderthals - all that violence and mayhem just because they weren't allowed their original marching route.

[non sociopath skin]

9. Bet we don't hear "Dr. Paisley" and his "Loyalist" Skinheads ...

... insisting that the Protestant Gangsters decommission their arms as a prelude to negotiations ....

The Skin

[...of J.Temperance]

11. Very well said

Personally, I'd have had the Paisley bigots arrested years ago.

There's never going to be peace in NI until the DUP is out of the equation. They don't want peace, it's completely obvious and has been for years.

[Taxloss]

12. America cannot understand Northern Ireland.

Most English people find it hard to understand, and for most that understanding means weary acceptance rather than partisan involvement.

On edit: One of the best assessments of the NI Troubles I have ever read was PJ O'Rourke's essay "An Acceptable Level Of Violence".

[fedsron2us]

10. Anyone know why the rioting is so bad this year ?

Orange Marches and Loyalist thuggery are hardly new phenonmena yet in recent years the violence has not been anywhere near this scale or organisation. In the late 1990's the Protestant paramilitaries were riven with internal rivalries so that at one stage there were more attacks being directed by Protestant against Protestant than against Catholics. It seems that someone has now taken charge and is orchestrating the recent out break of violence. I am wondering what is their precise political aim ?

[Guy_Montag]

14. Good weather,

no-one like to riot in the rain. Hot summers or at least dry ones tend to lend themselves to more riots.

I know this sounds superficial, but I genuinely believe it's reasonably accurate.

Secondly, did you notice most of the rioters are under 18? A few exceptions, but basically it's neds.

[fedsron2us]

15. Neds do not have blast bombs and ammo ready for action.

A mob of 700 people on the street is a bit more than a few idiots getting lary after one too many beers. Paramilitaries have always used youngsters to do the actual rioting because it enables the senior activists to avoid arrest. They also know the kids will get lesser sentences if they are collared.

There was quite an interesting comment piece by Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian today on the riots. He states -

It seems one of the multiple causes of these disturbances is what David Ervine, leader of the loyalist Progressive Unionist party, calls a "sense of abandonment" among grassroots, working-class Protestants. Rightly or wrongly, he says, this community perceives a British government that bends over backwards for Sinn Féin - so that "whatever the republicans want, republicans get" - and does next to nothing for them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,1567684,00.html

Take away the religion and the picture of poverty and deprivation looks remarkably similar whether you reside on the Falls Road or the Shankill Road.

[Taxloss]

13. I will say only this, repeated from the Guardian letters page:

"Another triumph for faith schools."

[fedsron2us]

16. So very true

I fear the ultimate legacy of the governments policy on education will be to see the scenes from Belfast repeated throughout cities in the rest of the United Kingdom. Sometimes I think that the aim is ensure that the poor are divided into sectarian ghettos so that they spend their time killing each other rather than fighting their true oppressors.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

17. Hain says UVF ceasefire is over

The government has announced it no longer recognises the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) as being on ceasefire.

The decision to "specify" the UVF and Red Hand Commando (RHC) was made by Northern Ireland Secretary Peter Hain.

Mr Hain was given a report from the Independent Monitoring Commission on the UVF's feud with the Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) last week.

The UVF has also been blamed for orchestrating riots following the cancellation of an Orange Order parade.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4243652.stm

[non sociopath skin]

18. Hope this isn't letting the Paisleyites off the hook, though...

... ol' Leatherlungs has been uncharacteristically quiet since his bowler-hatted boneheads went beserk.

The Skin