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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:43 AM
Original message
MPs call for Canada to drop Hezbollah from terror list
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 08:21 AM by tuvor
BENT JBAIL, Lebanon - It would aid the cause of peace if Canada dropped Hezbollah from a list of banned terrorist organizations, according to two Canadian MPs now on a fact-finding mission to Lebanon.

When asked if he was in favour of Hezbollah being taken off the terror list, Etobicoke Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj said: ''Yes, I would be.'' He likened the situation in the Middle East to Northern Ireland, where ''if there wasn't the possibility for London to negotiate with the IRA, you'd still have bombings....

''Hezbollah has a political wing. They have members of parliament. They have two cabinet ministers. You want to encourage politicians in this military organization so that the centre of gravity shifts to them.''

New Democrat Peggy Nash, who represents the Toronto riding of Parkdale-High Park, said her discussions in Lebanon had led her to believe ''that it is just not helpful to label them a terrorist organization.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?i...

(Crossposted in GD forum. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... )
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why?
They are terrorists. They may do some nice things for some people, but so did Hitler. That didn't make him any less evil.

BTW, the IRA are terrorists as well.
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Yes.
Hezbollah is a Nazi party.
Jason Kenney, is that you?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. LOL, there is an eerie familiarity, isn't there! n/t
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Did I say that Hezbollah are like the nazis?
Hell no. I'm really glad they have no where near the military capacity Hitler had. Hezbollah is nothing like the nazis in most ways. The nazis were national-socialist while hezbollah are religious fanatics. The only thing they have in common is their hatred of Jews, something many leftists here also seem to share.

I fucking hate it when hypocritical liberals make excuses for fundamentalist Muslim groups. The only fucking reason hezbollah provides social support to the Lebanese people is to increase their influence. Supporting hezbollah renders the Lebanese gov't impotent and useless and it empowers Syria and Iran. Is that what you guys are trying to achieve?

I consider myself a "liberal", therefore I will support an Israeli state and people that are much more liberal and democratic than their neighbours.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Oh hypocrisy....
You mean like saying you support foreign occupation to support womens' rights, but then ignore that your own government is dismantling status of women?

You mean scumbag hypocrites who like international law only if no one but Israel or the US can invoke it or violates it

You mean fake nationalists you toss their patriotism out to defend imperial wars, but say nothing about loss of sovereignty when it comes to trade agreements.

You boring hypocrites that think they are defending the freedom and democracy in Afghanistan, only to have the former oil executive we installed turn around and re-establishes the Taliban's Department of Virtue and Vice?

Or the supreme hypocrisy of some rightwing redneck claiming to be 'liberal' so he can post on a Progressive board and insult people...?

You know the big problem with folks like yourself is that you guys are in some bubble world; you use these stupid args among yourselves, you see flakes and propagandists in the NP use them and then are surprised when you try this retarded rhetoric on real Leftists, who note that you can't string a coherent thought together long enough to actually defend anything you claim to support....you know Nazis like Jason and his friends who are far closer to the 'western' ideal of fascism.

Israel is the real terror state and it's the duty of anyone that actually supports international law and human rights to oppose them.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I suspect your understanding of "liberal" and mine is vastly
different. I suspect harper's definition of conservative would be eerily close to your definition of "liberal" when defining your political leanings.

Hypocrisy, as you define it, is espoused by those who dare to criticize right-wing decisions ala the Israeli government, the US government and our current and, likely, temporary right wing Canadian government.

I wonder if you understand the term "projection" and how you use it in most of your posts? I suspect not.
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. My definition of "liberal" maybe a little more traditional
I believe in liberal economics with some government intervention to ensure fair business practices and some redistribution of income through taxation. On most social issues I'm also quite liberal.

I also believe that liberalism and religion are at odds, therefore, religion has no place in government. This is why I opposed the war in Iraq. The USA took down a secularist tyrant and has allowed religious tyrants to fill the power vacuum.

Hezbollah does not recognize Israel and they will not be satisfied until every last Jew in the region is expelled or killed. That is why they are terrorists and that is why we should not even engage them.

I'm not zionist or Jewish, or even all that Christian for that matter, but I will always support Israel. If Israel were never attacked, they would never have to retaliate and not innocent Arab lives would be lost. BTW, I would prefer a settlement that Jerusalem be made a non-affiliated city-state, however, I'm not sure that would acceptable to either side.

If that makes me a "neocon" in your little extremist world, then so be it. I was born in a country that lost 72% of its Jewish population during WW2 and I will never side with any haters and bigots who seek to exterminate them, or those who stand by and let it happen.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Interesting....
"I was born in a country that lost 72% of its Jewish population during WW2 and I will never side with any haters and bigots who seek to exterminate them, or those who stand by and let it happen."

So, are you saying, Israel will always be right because of WW2? Have you NO criticism of the Israeli government, past and present? If not, how is that different than the religious fundamentalists you despise with every fiber of your being? Is it only a question of religion that would differentiate the two and, if so, is that not a false difference? Is not extreme ideology, whether religious or one of statehood, extreme?
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. No
I simply refuse to deal with people who are bigots against Jews. It doesn't mean that I will not criticize Israel when I believe that have wronged oters. The Israeli does not generally target civilians. Yes, they make mistakes and obviously they have killed innocent people as well. The fact that hezbollah is able to control most of southern Lebanon puts Israel in a very difficult position. If not for hezbollah or other terrorist groups, Israel would not harm any Lebanese.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Has Israel, to date, done anything you would feel would merit
your criticism? If so, what would that be? If not, why not?
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes, civilian casualities
One is too many. Unfortunately, Israel cannot combat the terrorists without affecting civilians, not when the terrorists are entwined within the fabric of southern Lebanese communities. They clearly use civilians as shields.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Ummm, you are defending Israel's affecting civilians in your post...
how can that, in any way, be seen as a criticism?
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. My criticism
would be that they've killed to many Lebanese civilians. Their strikes against Hezbollah have not been surgical enough. That said, I would not expect Israel to sit back and be attacked by Hezbollah without retaliation. Given the way Hezbollah operates, any retaliation agianst them would likely result in civilian deaths.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Given that Israel had the high-tech weaponry they did, it is definitely
a question as to how they were unable to be more "surgical" in their targeting.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Having high-tech weaponry doesn't mean you're using it exclusively.
They do like their cluster bombs--about as surgical as that comedian with the watermelon and sledgehammer.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yep, touting "high-tech weaponry" is just another sales pitch...
to sooth the uniformed and blissfully ignorant of the facts, imo. I am still amazed at those that buy into it and how many that is. I just finished watching "Why We Fight" on CBC and they touched upon the fallacy of "precision bombing".
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I don't know WHICH leftists you are talking about.
*I* certainly don't hate Jews, and I doubt anyone here who isn't a troll does either.
I have no qualms, however about criticizing the Israeli gov't. That doesn't make me anti-Jew (I'm not even anti-zionism). I also will criticize the American gov't as I see fit. Doesn't make me anti-American.

And who said I supported hezbollah anyway?
You don't sound much like a liberal - your world is entirely too black and white.

Don't support the Israeli gov't? You must be a jew-hater and hezbollah supporter. Oh yeah, and you're empowering Iran and Syria.

Um, yeah that's it.
I'm done with your con rhetoric.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but
If you consider yourself "liberal," why is your username "Canadian_moderate"?

To me, "liberal" means "left-leaning" while moderate means "centrist".
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Very simple
socialist = left
liberal = centrist
conservative = right

On most fiscal issues I tend to be liberal and often lean conservative. On most social issues I'm certainly more liberal.

Since this is a american website/forum, a Canadian moderate would generally be described as a liberla by most most Americans. Actually, many Americans I talk to, including some of my wife's family, would certainly label me a "liberal" or a even "socialist", God forbid. ;o)
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Brave Stand...
Hopefully they will earn some points and get support for it...Israel's interests are NOT Canada's.
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. What's so brave about terrorism,
or supporting terrorism?
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Liberal MP denies report he wants Hezbollah removed from terror list
OTTAWA (CP) - Liberal MP Boris Wrzesnewskyj has denied reports he said Hezbollah should be taken off Canada's terrorist list.

The politician, from the Toronto riding of Etobicoke Centre, is one of three opposition MPs touring the southern region of Lebanon on a fact-finding mission.

The group has come under fire for comments suggesting that Canada should be more open to talking with Hezbollah. Wrzesnewskyj was quoted in some newspaper reports Monday as saying the group should be removed from Ottawa's official list of terrorist organizations.

Wrzesnewskyj said Monday he favours changing Canada's laws that forbid any contact with known terrorist organizations. He said the law undermines efforts to seek lasting peace between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas after a brutal 33-day war.

But Hezbollah's terrorist status should not change, he said in an interview from Lebanon.

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/shownews.jsp?con...
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I am glad he's back tracking
I'm sure the Liberal leadership told him to.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Naw
It was just the moderate Stevie that convinced him to be more of a DINO, or as we might say here LINO.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it is...

Well who would have ever guessed?
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
26. Poor guy...
There was a funny comment on the CBC where that hack Graham was basically saying that BECAUSE there was a leadership campaign going on, this was no time to talk about these matters.

:rofl:

If not during a leadership campaign, when...over drinks waiting for a table at Hy's Steakhouse?

Students of Canadian political history will recall a similar reaction when Svend Robinson shook hands with Arafat -- notice however that Robinson was a member of a Fourth Place party at the time, but the result was the same. He was cruxified for 'talking with a terrorist'...never mind that Clinton ended up shaking hands and signing an agreement with that same terrorists a couple of years later.

Moral of the story...part of the aim of the Zionist lobby is to KEEP the focus on the immediate political actors of US/Israel...attempts at forging a third lobby like the one Yossi Belin was trying to do, gets the same shocking treatment by Israel and it's supporters -- everyone is a Nazi or a terrorist.

Period.

The UN supports terrorism
The Quintet supports terrorism
Gush Shalom supports terrorism
Rachel Corrie supports terrorism
Svend Robinson supports terrorism
Children at Qana support terrorism

Guess what? To Israel, YOU support terrorism until you PROVE otherwise...

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gula Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. I feel so relieved to know that my co-citizens get their news
from a site where 1+1+1=2 :sarcasm:

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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. What's your point, exactly, gula?
You want the boring details? Or maybe you just need them...?

I heard the story on CBC radio, very first thing this morning, checked Google news since the CBC site hadn't posted anything about it, and the canada.com link was the first pertinent link I found.

I don't have a lot of time in the a.m., so I thought I'd share with my acquaintances on the Canada forum what I already had.

That okay with you?

(In the meantime, no one's preventing you from contributing better news to this forum. Light some candles, and quit cursing the darkness.)
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. So
Like do you have something to say.

Like, man, maybe there is another source, like, man, there must be some reason to the square root of minus one.

And like I was saying man, what is it that you are saying again.
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