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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 01:44 PM
Original message
Escape to Wisconsin-like Nazis, neocons, organized crime and black ops did
That subject line got your attention, this is going to be an omnibus thread with the ramifications of the truth contained in the subject line and remedies discussed.

An honest discussion of history and facts about Wisconsin mentioning what has contributed to the detriment of all of us that live here today, a State with a rich tradition of progress, liberalism and innovation in all sectors of public and private life.

A State with communities in unprecedented distress as well as unprecedented corruption-and needing organized social action to make the will of we, the people once again the dominant force instead of corruption.

Leadership can, and should, be based on merit to provide basic services, as opposed to dynasty, privatization, outsourcing and the dependency on funding that isn't corrupt.

It is beyond just arguing about, we are all living in peril due to the lack of accountability by a networked extreme system dedicated to preserving and consolidating itself and eliminating all opposition to its agenda of control-what the founders feared when the checks and balances of democracy were written has been papered over.

It's clean up time for real, not false promises of something better after the next election-an election that could be canceled by decrees and take control of our State and communities away from even the corrupted politicians and criminal special interest groups.

Here is a timely link to begin this thread with, it is related to the subject line and reported from our largest community-Milwaukee, where I was born and grew up. I'm linking to it and will offer my comments about it (and my subject line) later.

Any and all posts based on the subject line or the link below are encouraged.

"Community worker pleads guilty to theft" by Geogia Pabst (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel 7-25-2007)
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=638503

Fair use cited


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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Some more background on Angela Sanfilippo and 8th District Alderman Robert Donovan
Edited on Fri Jul-27-07 03:44 PM by bobthedrummer
"Angela Sanfilippo on the phone " Zoom Info page
http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Sanfilippo_Angela_201962...

"Ald. Donovan indicted in federal court" The Business Journal of Milwaukee 7-13-2005
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/11...

Fair use cited on all links

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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. What in the Sam Hill are you talking about?
we are all living in peril due to the lack of accountability by a networked extreme system dedicated to preserving and consolidating itself and eliminating all opposition to its agenda of control-what the founders feared when the checks and balances of democracy were written has been papered over

Once again. In English?
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You don't like my editorializing-fine, Jeff In Milwaukee, it's in English.
Edited on Fri Jul-27-07 04:16 PM by bobthedrummer
It was inspired by my going over NSPD/51. If you have any further questions along those lines PM me, or follow this thread as it develops over time.

Now, on to some not so random links.

An article from 1-19-2003 by the former Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel duo of Cary Spivak and Don Bice
"Cozy world of politics pays big for non-profit"
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=111642

Before last November's midterms as part of my online activism I dropped this into the Illinois Forum-which is a good way to end this post.

"Connecting the networks of criminal conspiracies project" active thread started 10-7-2006
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

on edit: Fair use cited
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Fifteen Years of teaching College Composition Talking Here...
And no, you're not speaking in plain English.

I have no problem with "editorializing" given that this is a political discussion board. Editorializing is what we do around here. My problem here is that after reading and rereading your original post, I still can't figure out what point you're trying to make (ahtough it appears to be several points). Between the meandering nature of your prose and the obscure links (Frank Zeidler's honory degree supports your thesis -- how?) what you've got here is all but unreadable.

It's not that I disagree with you, it's that I don't know what you're trying to tell me.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. There were 38 branch POW camps in Wisconsin during WWII
Former teacher Betty Cowley published a great book based on that little known fact back in February 2002.

Here is a link to Powell's Books Synopsis and Reviews of Betty Cowley's "Stalag Wisconsin: Inside WWII Prisoner of War Camps"
http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9781878569837

Fwiw, the synopsis of Betty Cowley's work is a small part of the real Nazi reference in the OP of this thread-we have Bund and Operation PAPERCLIP relatives living here too as well as the neonazi components.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-22-08 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
34. Well, German soldiers were not necessarily Nazis.
But I'll check out the book. It looks interesting.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-22-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. That's right-and I know the difference, as do a lot of other citizens here.
Regardless, there are are still some real NAZIS, and their indoctrinated offspring here-and this is in the context of "universal fascism" shared by so many of George Walker Bush's inner party circle.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
5.  Some more not so random links regarding the OP subject line
Edited on Sat Jul-28-07 12:06 PM by bobthedrummer
On June 13, 1958 the first Honorary Degree of the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee was awarded to Mayor Frank Zeidler (Milwaukee's third Socialist Mayor, he served as Mayor from 1948-1960).
The presenter that day was University of Wisconsin-Madison President Edwin B. Fred.

"Mayor Zeidler received first University Wisconsin-Milwaukee Honorary Degree" by Brad Stratton
http://www.uwm.edu/News/Features/06.07/zeidler.html

During the administration of Franklin Roosevelt Wisconsin became a major region of many programs and policies of The New Deal and a testing ground for proposed ones, all a part of our progressive tradition.

Paradoxically, during the FDR administration, Wisconsin also was a significant source of support to the ideologies of what became the Axis powers of WWII-Milwaukee and fascism, in particular, stands out as an example of this paradox.

The reports of atrocities and use of new tactics, techniques and weapons by what became the Axis had not gone unnoticed by the administration of FDR, there were secret agreements and programs (particularly aiding the United Kingdom) prior to Pearl Harbor and our official entry into WWII.

The use of chemical and biological weapons/CBW on civilians (despite post-WWI treaties banning them) had not gone unnoticed. The research and development of CBW comes from fields of prevention of disease, chemistry etc.

Prior to our entry into WWII officials of the UK made an urgent request to FDR's administration for help in the area of CBW which were agreed to- and since one needs those types of weapons in order to "defend" against them secret recruitment of the experts needed were undertaken. Eventually this led to UW-Madison.

The presenter of Mayor Zeidler's honorary degree was UW-Madison President Edwin B. Fred-who, along with fellow UW-Madison bacteriologist Ira L. Baldwin were instrumental in forming American biological weapons programs. The UK's urgent requests involved a number of different types of biological agents, the requests particularly asked for several kilograms of anthrax.

Mr. George Merck (Merck pharma) personally contacted Edwin and Ira at UW-Madison who overcame their personal ethical and moral barriers and agreed to participate in the foundation of a US CBW program. This eventually led to the conversion of Ft. Detrick into a CBW facility.

"Fort Detrick Chapter 4: Birth of Science" Ft. Detrick website
http://www.detrick.army.mil/cutting_edge/index.cfm?chap...

I'll be adding some more to this interesting WWII and post-WWII University of Wisconsin system history in the next post. Some of the people discussed will be Harry Frederick Harlow, Louis Jolyon West, former student of Ira Baldwin Frank Olson and several others-all related to the black ops in the OP subject line.

Fair use cited on all links








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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Wisconsin and some black operations
Edited on Sat Jul-28-07 04:14 PM by bobthedrummer
WWII was total war and the efforts to defeat the Axis by any and all means included programs and operations that were never meant to become known about outside of the compartmented units involved.

The Manhattan Project made use of the theoretical work of Albert Einstein and many other brilliant, prominent people in applications that were most likely never their intent-they were given all kinds of challenges to meet under false pretenses-yet the appeal to patriotism without going beyond the general statement of aiding the war effort was accepted by most.

There is no argument that WWII came to an end with the use of the products of The Manhattan Project, and that large scale secret projects can remain hidden, as well as spur research into new fields of study.

Whatever motivated the minds of Edwin Fred and Ira Baldwin to overcome their multi-faceted objections to participating into biological weapons programs was also being studied in Madison in different fields.

Aside from patriotism, in the context of total war, deception and appeals to basic human emotions were employed to recruit experts that might have objections to these black projects and operations.

Here's a data dump on a few of the Wisconsin connected WWII and post-WWII black-ops figures with minimal further commentary in this post.

Harry Frederick Harlow was researching and teaching at UW then using primates and making extrapolations into other fields.

Here's a couple of links about Harry F. Harlow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow

"Monkey Love" by Phillip Manning 3-9-2003
http://www.scibooks.org/goonpark.html

Abraham Maslow was there(developed the hierarchy of needs theory)
Abraham Maslow page from Dr. C. George Boeree's Personality Theories website
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html

Louis Jolyon West was there-he was part of the MK ULTRA operatives and other black ops-he later associated with UCLA-this is a link to UCLA's Max Nagano page on West
http://www.english.ucla.edu/ucla1960s/7274/Max/nagano4....

Wisconsin's Frank Olson was a student of Ira Baldwin's prior to recruitment into the intelligence community. From The Frank Olson Legacy Project
"Chronology: The Death of Frank Olson in Historical Context/First period: To the death of Frank Olson"
http://www.frankolsonproject.org/Dates/Chronology/Chron...

on edit: Fair use cited on all links
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. A very informative recent cross-post that has a lot of black op history
(and has a link to the post this is attached to)

"When memories and minds are erased/manipulated by tactics and techniques" (posted 12-13-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. Cheryl Welsh cites UW Professor Alfred McCoy's 2006 work
"A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation from the Cold War to the War on Terror" in her brand new work published at Mind Justice.org-she asserts that Alfred McCoy was writing about "no touch" torture-the "destruction of personal identity".

Cheryl Welsh is a UN recognized expert on "non-lethal" weapons and a human rights activist against tactics and technologies that target the human central nervous system. She is the founder of Mind Justice.org.

"In Contravention of Conventional Wisdom: CIA 'no touch' torture makes sense out of mind control allegations" by Cheryl Welsh (January 2008)
http://www.mindjustice.org/wisdom.htm

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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. You forgot Posse Comitatus and John Birch
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 10:01 AM by sybylla
I see some of the connections you are trying to draw, in a general way, but I wonder if this isn't more likely a symptom of the sense of selfishness and the attendant envy and greed some in our society hold against others than a mass conspiracy for the achievement of some terrible goal. Can their appearing to work together be only accidental simply because they have similar goals?

If you get down to the core motivations for all these groups, doesn't selfishness seem to be the base propellant for the poison?

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The Bradley Foundation, Michael Joyce-I haven't got to any of that yet
I'm glad you are getting a sense of the overarching connections, (corruption) sybylla-add to this thread whatever you like. Now it's on to a brief history of OC in Wisconsin (which is from Chicago).
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Organized crime is an equal opportunity profession
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 09:12 PM by bobthedrummer
I don't think that a disclaimer is really necessary anymore when it comes to organized crime. It has been present in all cultures, and OC is a subculture comprised of many variants.

In the USA as successive groups of immigrants arrived so did criminals that sought to expand their influence. Power struggles between (and within) these groups brought about alliances and a system overseen by a sanctioning body.

To me, OC=organized corruption-regardless of the dominant surnames, race/ethnicity and various stereotypes attached to each.

OC has its own "ethics" and is run as a corporation ("business") that has its own tactics of mergers and acquisitions, hostile takeovers, franchises, partnerships, etc.

OC partnerships with government and law enforcement led to communities where OC was the government, like Cicero, Illinois.

No one should take offense today when some links about OC in Wisconsin come from a website called americanmafia.com because OC is an equal opportunity profession, and OC here has always been associated with Chicago.

Here are a few links offered w/o comment in this first post about OC in Wisconsin.

"The Brothers Capone (Part One)" by Allan May Crime Historian 11-8-1999 (from American Mafia.com)http://americanmafia.com/Allan_May_11-8-99.html

"Milwaukee" by Jay C. Ambler Investigative Journalist (from American Mafia.com)
http://www.americanmafia.com/Cities/Milwaukee.html

Testimony of Virgil Peterson (Operating Director Chicago Crime Commission) to Kefauver Committee July 6, 1950: United State Senate Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce
http://www.onewal.com/kefp.html

Fair use cited on all links

In the next post about OC, I'll be discussing people like WI. US Senator Alexander Wiley(R) (that was Chippewa Falls own son asking Virgil Peterson on July 6, 1950 "IS YOUR TESTIMONY GOING TO APPLY TO GANGS, AS YOU SAY, ATTEMPTING TO TAKE OVER LOCAL GOVERNMENT?"), Marquette Law School grad and later US 7th Circuit Court of Appeals Judge John L. Coffey (in 1962 Coffey began a three year John Doe investigation of corruption in the Milwaukee Police Department and Milwaukee County Sheriff's Department resulting in 30 indictments) and others.

I'll be posting about neocons before OC. I also extend my apology to Georgia Pabst for making a typo on her name in the OP and going past the edit time.








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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-02-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Could you please drop the "Fair use cited on all links" disclaimer?
I mean, in this now-familiar "bunch of tubes" world (thank you, Senator Ted Stevens, for defining the new paradigm so brilliantly),

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/07/28/will-ted-steve... /

I think we're all pretty comfortable with the idea of "dropping a web link" into a blog posting.

It's become so commonplace, in fact, that the software here automatically makes the link for you, if you type anything starting with http://www.whatever ...

...But that's not why I replied to your thread. I thought you might enjoy reading this article, if you want to go back to the era at the dawn of the earliest memory any human yet living may have, regarding that whole ball of wax (conspiracies/oligarchic-plutocratic privileges the rest of us don't enjoy/J.Edgar Hoover/Smedley Butler/the origins of the neo-cons...):


http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm

Enjoy!
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-03-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'm familiar with the link by WM, I'm working on a nice fat post for this thread about the neocons.
I'm also very old school, so I'm not going to drop the fairuse citations-just as I give credit to the authors/source whenever possible. What I lack in tech savvy I try to compensate for in other ways.

Until I get done with reading Edwin Black's "War on the Weak" and checking on a number of the meticulously researched sources (also with current/historical Wisconsin linkage) I might not be posting in this thread until next week-until then I'm sure you or another Milwaukeean might want to comment on this latest paramilitary extralegal terrorist hate group from the ranks of the MPD and other Wisconsin law enforcement that Gina Barton of The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported on yesterday.

"Ex-cop linked to rogue group" by Gina Barton 8-2-2007
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=642051

Fair use cited


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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-04-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Correction: Edwin Black's history of eugenics in America is "War Against The Weak"
and Madison is a world center for bioengineering, genetics, stem cell research, etc.

Plus, when Tommy Thompson and his gang put together what became the federal "model for welfare reform" (Wisconsin Works!/W2) eugenicists and their allies like Charles Murray, Michael Joyce, Jay Hein, and many others (some derived from the old Eugenics Record Office/ERO) had influence in it.

Again, I apologize for posting the wrong title of Edwin Black's work about American eugenics up thread, and I thank him and all the contributing members of the research team that produced it.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-15-07 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. "Neoconservatism" and how Wisconsinites worked alliances
To many politically aware people neocons usually are cited as influential ideologues spun off from the philosophy of Leo Strauss and the PNAC group. It can be argued that when it comes to achieving extreme pragmatic results (i.e. extreme RW/PNAC) over time, starting with just a few resources, Wisconsin is the leader.

When it comes to funding critical neoconservative policies and the redistribution of resources from public into private sectors (especially faith-based programs) I suggest beginning by taking a look at The Bradley Foundation's role.

Btw, my comments and style are going to be minimal in this first post on neocons-it is up to the reader to delve into the works of the authors cited in the hyperlinks and form their own opinions (and comment positively or add to this thread). It's somewhat of a data-dump that is providing a real basis for this thread's OP subject line (Escape to Wisconsin-like Nazis, neocons, organized crime and black ops did).

Bradley Foundation links

from Right Web
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1441

from Source Watch
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bradley_Foun...

Michael S. Joyce deserves special credit for what he achieved in strategically funding and forging alliances in neoconservativism and bringing real RW radical change to our State, nation and the world.

Michael S. Joyce links

from Bill Berkowitz at Media Transparency
http://www.mediatransparency.com/story.php?storyID=114

from Right Web
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1236

from Alan. J. Borsuk Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=404463

For the readers that have reviewed the links so far and noted the neocon core conceptual framework advancement and alliances I now switch to the role of Tommy Thompson (et.al.) and his many contributions of neocon faith, rewarding hard work, and other extreme RW values advanced in his public and private career.

The first group of supporters that were rewarded after the installation of the George W. Bush/Richard Cheney administration were comprised of the same faith-based neocon alliances and policies that Tommy, Michael Joyce, The Bradley Foundation and others had implemented here in Wisconsin-from "welfare reform" to privatization.

George W. Bush promptly created The Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives and those active in that movement (pioneered here by Tommy's Governorship) were appointed to key positions at the federal level.

The Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives page from Source Watch
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Faith-based_...

from Phil Wilayto at Media Transparency 1-1-2001
"Tommy Thompson Prepares to Bring 'Wisconsin Model' to Washington"
http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=52

from Phil Wilayto at Media Transparency 3-11-2001
"Milwaukee Genesis: Where George W. Bush's 'Faith-Based' initiative really comes from"
http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=37

I'm going to end this first post about neoconservative alliances in Wisconsin with a few other links selected for the value of the facts in them and the relationship to other links in this post.

from Bill Berkowitz 8-15-2002
"Pat Robertson Counts His Federal Blessings"
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/robertsonblessi...

by Steve Schultze Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel 2-25-2006
"In a badgered state"
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=404308

from rodeodance 8-4-2006
"On Bush's Religious ideology and its effects on policy"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

George W. Bush Remarks on the Faith-Based Welfare Initiative in Milwaukee (speech given at Holy Redeemer July 2, 2002)
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=64207

Remarks by the President at Bush-Cheney 2004 Luncheon, The Italian Community Center Milwaukee 10-3-2003
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/2003100...

In 1990 and 1991 The Bradley Foundation gave grants to help build The Italian Community Center (there was an older one) where Bush spoke in 2003 (in the OP link about Angela San Filippo by Georgia Pabst, reportedly she was quite an Italian Community activist as well as other things-sometimes I see patterns that connect historically, but I could be wrong)
http://www.mediatransparency.com/recipientgrants.php?re...

There will be a lot more about Wisconsin and neoconservativism, Tommy Thompson's gang and people like Scott McCallum, Jay Hein, Charles Murray, Mark Green, Jason A. Turner, David V. Mastran and Maximus Inc, etc. posted by me later-but right now I'm more interested in what you have to say about these topics.












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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Didn't the PNAC originate from the Bradley Foundation?
I swear there was some connection and that the PNACers even held their annual meeting in Milwaukee, IIRC.

Rp
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. That's where Michael S. Joyce/Irving/William Kristol connect-yes The Bradley Foundation helped fund
PNAC

here's a repeat of Bill Berkowitz's superb article on Michael S. Joyce
http://www.mediatransparency.com/story.php?storyID=114

They're universal fascists with their own "solutions" to "problems", aren't they?

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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You don't mind if I use some of the research you provided do you?
I was thinking of writing an article for my Blog on the political spectrum in certain parts of Wisconsin and this actually would help me a lot.

Rp
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-16-07 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Of course not, we're all working with each other and previous research-use whatever you find
helpful MessiahRp.

And feel free to add to this thread whatever you can-including a link to your blog.

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-17-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. This just in: "Giuliani Seeks Private School Vouchers" by Libby Quaid AP 8-17-2007
Edited on Fri Aug-17-07 01:53 PM by bobthedrummer
via Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-6857386,00...

That LBN is old news to a lot of us here in Wisconsin, where these policies and programs were operationalized with Tommy Thompson and his faithful few, aka the privatization gang.

I hadn't intended to post more about this aspect of Wisconsin, but since it's LBN here's a bit more on the developmental history of what Giuliani is touting.

Among the key people with input into Wisconsin Works/W2 and similar programs (i.e. voucher schools) is another leading neocon that has stayed in the shadows (as these policies and programs harm the vulnerable and taxpayer's) Jason A. Turner.

Direct from The Heritage Foundation here is Jason Turner's page.
http://www.heritage.org/about/staff/JasonTurner.cfm

Jason Turner link
from a conference held at The Welfare Reform Academy
http://www.welfareacademy.org/conf/papers/turner_bio.sh...

Yep, Tommy and his crew put an end to welfare for the poor (I'm don't deny that there was need for reform-these criminals looted and targeted racial and class minorities for "special handling" replicating phases of what the Nazis and Stalinists did imo) and put themselves in charge of redistribution of whatever they could get their hands on.

One of the major private companies involved in these programs is the organization that began with David Mastran, Maximus Inc.

Maximus Inc. links

Business Week was all for Maximus Inc. as per this 5-31-1999 article by Lorraine Woellert
"Maximus,Inc.: Welfare Privatizer"
http://www.businessweek.com/1999/99_22/b3631029.htm

Yet the most accurate predictions came from critics.

"Maximizing profits and multiplying miscues" by Bill Berkowitz
http://www.workingforchange.com/printitem.cfm?itemid=11...

Even with the stonewalling and backlogs of cases involving corruption in this extreme RW criminal administration there was some progress made, if we call a verdict and a "settlement" progress, involving Maximus Inc.

"Maximus to Pay $42.7 Million for Role in Medicaid Fraud" posted 7-25-2007 by Sussy associatedcontent.com
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/326442/maximus...

businesslawyersandsettlements.com noted on 7-23-2007 that Maximus Inc is even considering selling itself.
http://business.lawyersandsettlements.com/settlements/0...

That's enough for this unanticipated post, as a response to Mr. Giuliani's recycled Wisconsin based garbage-picked up from the NY days of Michael Joyce, Jason Turner and many others as noted in this developing thread about Wisconsin's Nazis, neocons, OC and black ops.

P.S. we still don't have a State budget, and millions have been given to companies like Maximus, Inc. and many others that took that money and left (example-the State's software programs and network upgrades contracts).

on edit: Maximus, Inc. self-reported lobbyists for 2006 were Barbour, Griffith & Rogers and The Jefferson Consulting Group



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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. University of Wisconsin-Madison alumnus Wallace J. Hilliard, his associates & family merit a post
I wasn't aware that Wally is a UW-Madison alumnus until I read about his gift of $100,000 to the Wisconsin Emerging Scholars/WES program and that he established The Wallace J. Hilliard Fund through the UW Foundation. Check out the last entry from this 2001 hyperlink.

"Hilliard Gift to the WES Program"
http://www.math.wisc.edu/news/2001/undergraduate.htm

I didn't know about the Hilliard 2001 gifts to Camp Daniel until researching for awhile this morning.

"Camp Daniel" repost from 7-14-2001
http://www.campdaniel.org/greenbaypressgazette.html

There are several United States District Court-Eastern District of Wisconsin cases (case #'s 05-C-694; 05-C-784; 05-C-958; 05-C-1092; and 05-C-1148) all naming Wallace J. Hilliard as the defendant in cases involving people that had invested in Hilliard's Florida Air, investments that were doomed to fail, investments made by people mostly from around Green Bay that knew and trusted Wally-I didn't know about those cases until today either.

I did know a little bit about Wally Hilliard, and I've posted about him in the past here at DU.
I generally knew that he founded American Medical Service/AMS in Green Bay and made tremendous profits from insurance policy premiums while there.

I generally knew that after leaving AMS Wally relocated to Florida and had also made many investments in aviation related businesses as part of his extensive portfolio. I'll mention that later.

What I didn't know, until researching today, was about all the successes of family and associates of Wally here in Wisconsin-and about some of their professional and social networks.

Former AMS Chief Financial Officer Tim Day, for example, is part of the private equity group Capital Connection, LLC-here's a link to them, click on this company's principals and you'll notice the Weyers brothers too, Bob and Jeff. All they do is make connections, like the name of their private equity group states.
http://www.capconinvestors.com /

After I learned a bit about Capital Connections, LLC I wondered what the heck the Weyers and Hillard Freedom Fund was. Not being involved with any private equity group myself, I still don't know.

I do know that there is a Green Bay based Hilliard Family Foundation which is headed by Wally's son Daniel Hilliard, and Andrew Hilliard is part of that foundation. I have no idea what all they do, aside from what shows up on a Hilliard Family Foundation engine search, but I'm sure many Wisconsin citizens have some knowledge about that particular foundation.

I do know that the demise of the downtown Green Bay mall that originally was named Port Plaza, then Washington Commons, (Washington Commons was closed and vacated at the end of February 2006) has led to legal problems for both Daniel and Andrew Hilliard and others from a suit filed by Baylake Bank.

I have no knowledge of what is up with the American Medical Service/AMS entity or who owns them currently, there is some record of acquisition by Minneapolis based United Health, and there is also a September 30, 2004 page from the State Office of the Commissioner of Insurance mentioning an acquisition proposal by PacifiCare Health Systems Inc
http://oci.wi.gov/pacificare.htm

There is a pattern of continual, and confusing, changing of names and entities when it comes to researching Wally, his family and associates-there is also a historic pattern of negative outcomes that far overcomes the successes. Wally is very good at that (distancing his name/involvement), for some reason.

One thing that I've been aware of, and have posted about over the years is the fact that Wally was involved with the ownership of Huffman Aviation where some of the 9/11 "terrorists" group took flight training.

I'm also aware of Wally's religious affiliation as a self-described Mormon deacon, and the linkage of many of his aviation assets to black operations involving drugs, extraordinary rendition flights and other things.

Florida based Daniel Hopsicker, despite criticism, has investigated and established many factual connections between Wally and various enterprises that deserve serious investigation.

"The Secret History of Jerry Falwell: Televangelist links to terror flight school in Florida" by Daniel Hopsicker 5-18-2007
http://www.madcowprod.com/05182007.html

What bothers me is that so many institutions and groups dedicated to providing for a better future accept the financial gifts and other donations from him, his family and their associates without questioning where it came from-and when a researcher does delve into that they encounter layers upon layers of obfuscation, a well known tactic of deliberate deception.

So, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls-can you post anything about Wally, his family or their friends and associates that might be helpful in bringing out what his pattern of deception conceals?







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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. A miscellaneous post
I incorrectly used "American Medical Services/AMS" when referring to Wally Hilliard's former Green Bay insurance company American Medical Security/AMS in post#20 and went past the edit time.

Wisconsin still does not have a State budget approved, the partisan conflicts are billions of dollars apart.

Compounding that are the tolls that the devastating floods and other climate related factors (from drought to crop and property destruction, etc.) are wreaking on everyone.

The uncertainty of the world wide financial crisis (brought about by unsound and corrupt policies that have only benefited the ideological extremists and criminals in the privatization gang that has redistributed everything that they had authority over to themselves) has intensified the considerable anxieties people are experiencing about recovering from these unprecedented losses or even making short term plans.

A couple of political news items from the past week (related to this thread's OP subject line) are posted below.

"Walker to return $50,000 in campaign donations" by Steve Schultze (8-23-2007 Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=651595

"Ambassador Green aims to take a bit of Wisconsin to Tanzania" by Kelly McBride (8-24-2007 Green Bay Press Gazette)
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...

Mark Andrew Green retained a considerable amount of Republican 2006 out of state contributions when he shifted from running for reelection as 8th District US Congressman to Governor-even when use of that money was determined to have been unethical, improper, and was supposed to have been returned Ambassador Green kept it.

Oh well, he's a Republican lawyer and now Ambassador to Tanzania. I didn't know that Mark's dad, Jeremy Green, was a South African physician and that his mom, Elizabeth, was from Britain. Mark was born in Boston and his family moved around quite a bit before locating in Wisconsin.

I didn't know that Mark briefly (5 days) was in the US Navy as an Aviation cadet-Mark made some conflicting statements about those 5 days of military service, then admitted it.

Here's a profile from Source Watch's Congresspedia about the new Ambassador to Tanzania.
Mark Andrew Green
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mark_Green

I do know about Mark's efforts to make the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives a permanent one. I know about his avid involvement with Ducks, Unlimited and several other organizations.

In these days faith can a good thing-but not when it's part of government "policies and projects"-it should be as our currently papered over Constitution says.

Remember former appointed Republican Governor Scott McCallum? There is quite a bit that I have learned about Scott that I wasn't aware of. Scott McCallum was the first Christian Scientist to be a Governor.

Since we have so many Wisconsin citizens in need of emergency relief maybe Scott's position as President and CEO of the Dallas, Texas based disaster relief organization Aidmatrix can help them (if he's still there-certainly he has the hook-up if he isn't).

"Internet charity has a Wisconsin flavor in CEO Scott McCallum" by Tom Still (7-5-2005 Wisconsin Technology Network)
http://wistechnology.com/article.php?id=1967

Scotty might have some more clout as a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute, even if he's not there anymore he has another hook-up to draw on to help Wisconsinites today. The Discovery Institute has come up with many creative ways to use the people's assets-and Scotty has always had a few ideas along those lines too.

"Former Wisconsin Governor Scott McCallum Joins Discovery Institute as Senior Fellow" (4-20-2004)
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?comma...

That's it for this post. To those who have been following this thread your positive input is welcomed.










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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-13-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. A brief note-those that watched PBS's Nova "Intelligent Design on Trial"
may have picked up on the fact that the publications used by the Dover, PA. school board ("Pandas and People" etc.) came from Seattle's Discovery Institute where our very own Scott McCallum (first Christian Scientist Governor-even though he was unelected) was a Senior Fellow in 2004 as noted in the post above that I attached this to.

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
22. BREAKING: AGAG's interim replacement-Cedarburg's own Paul D. Clement
Edited on Mon Aug-27-07 11:49 AM by bobthedrummer
This post wasn't planned, so here are just a few thing's established by others regarding Cedarburg's former Solicitor General Paul D. Clement, now to become acting interim Attorney General.

Official DoJ Bio
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/aboutosg/paul_d_clementbio.htm

Source Watch profile
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Paul_D._Clem...

Paul is a member of The Federalist Society and has made several presentations at the Milwaukee branch, at the Athletic Club with pals like Viet Dinh.

Paul represented Richard B. Cheney when Mr. Cheney set his policy of not releasing information to Congress, or anyone else, about the National Energy Policy Development Group (this has grown to not obeying the law on many other things Cheney)

"Cheney Argues Against Giving Congress Records" Missouri U repost of Don Van Natta Jr 9-28-2002 NYT article
http://foi.missouri.edu/usenergypolicies/cheneyargues.h...

Paul represented Donald Rumsfeld et. al. in the Hamdan torture case (archived page from NorthWestern U's Medill Journalism School)
http://docket.medill.northwestern.edu/archives/003208.p...

That's just a little data-dump on another BFEE Badger.

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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Make Report on US Attorney firings public, Senate Judiciary Democrats tell Solicitor General
Make Report on US Attorney firings public, Senate Judiciary Democrats tell Solicitor General
Submitted by crew on 1 May 2007 - 8:26am.
http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/28069

Because the Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, and the Deputy Attorney General, Paul McNulty, are enmeshed in the U.S. Attorneys scandal, responsibility for overseeing the internal investigation has fallen to the Solicitor General, Paul Clement. He's been strongly advised by key members of the Senate Judiciary Committee to make public the findings of that investigation. Advised so strongly that The Hill says the Senators are actually demanding it:

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) demanded Monday that Solicitor General Paul Clement make public the findings of his investigations into the firings of eight U.S. attorneys.

In a letter to Clement, the senators sought the assurance that the results of the Office of the Inspector General (OIG) and Office of Professional Responsibilitys (OPR) joint investigation into the firings will be made available to the Congress and to the American people.

==============
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dems-want-internal-...
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Despite admitting involvement in U.S. Attorney firings, Bush administration won't comply with subpoe
Despite admitting involvement in U.S. Attorney firings, Bush administration won't comply with subpoenas
Submitted by crew on 28 June 2007 - 1:44pm.
http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/29219

The Bush administration is invoking executive privilege (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/white-house-wont-co... ) to avoid Congressional subpoenas in the investigation about the fired U.S. Attorneys:

The White House brushed aside five congressional subpoenas Thursday, saying executive-branch documents and communications regarding the firing of several U.S. attorneys are protected by executive privilege.

I write at the direction of the president to advise and inform you that the president has decided to assert executive privilege and therefore the White House will not be making any production in response to these subpoenas for documents, White House Counsel Fred Fielding wrote in a letter to Senate and House judiciary committee Chairmen Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.).

As Think Progress (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/06/28/clement-letter /) notes, the documents provided by the Bush administration acknowledge White House staffers were integrally involved in the decisions surrounding the firings of the U.S. Attorneys:

(Solicitor General Paul) Clement reviewed the documents that the Congress subpoenaed. In his letter, Clement reveals what investigators have suspected from the very beginning that the White House was intimately involved in the attorney scandal. Upon examination of the White House documents, Clement writes (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/fielding-exec-priv/?r... ):

Among other things, these communications discuss the wisdom of such a proposal, specific U.S. Attorneys who could be removed, potential replacement candidates, and possible responses to congressional and media inquiries about the dismissals.

The White House had said that Mr. Bushs aides approved the list of prosecutors only (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/washington/13attorney... ) after it was compiled. President Bush himself said that the Justice Department made recommendations (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/03/2007032... ), which the White House accepted regarding the removal of the attorneys.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
25. A small post-well, there seems to be a WI. budget agreement
and Tommy Thompson's crew have announced their support of New York's Rudy Giuliani. Anyone surprised?

The Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel's Daniel Bice made an interesting observation that mentions a lot of the same old TT criminals and comrades possibly benefiting from Gov. Doyle's negotiations on the budget

"Jim helping Tommy? Strange, but maybe" (Daniel Bice 10-17-2007 Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=676180

There was an intriguing story about that portion of our State budget that has gone for official portraits of Wisconsin's Governors-this concerned the unelected Scott McCallum's portrait. Btw, TT didn't like the first one of him, so a second one was produced.

"Pen stroke may fell governor portraits" by Patrick Marley (9-25-07 Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=667379


I'm currently deeply researching more real Nazi connections to our State. Heck, anyone can do this.

There was an obituary in the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel published April 19, 2006 for Heinz Max Schlicke, an Operation PAPERCLIP German that lived and worked (Allen-Bradley) in Milwaukee for years.

Dr. Heinz Max Schlicke invented and patented many things during his life. One of his inventions was the infrared proximity fuse-which was designed to be used to detonate atomic weapons.

Heinz M. Schlicke became a prominent US citizen after the Nazi submarine U-234 was captured May 15, 1945. He was onboard, along with a cargo that included uranium oxide, infrared proximity fuses and Nazi military and civilian folks that were apparently headed to Japan, even though Germany had "surrendered" prior to the capture of the U-234 and the exploitation of the people and cargo by US and Allied leaders.

That's the end of this small post. Feel free to contribute positiviely to this thread.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
27. Some updates on the Tommy Thompson crime family
"Hurtgen extortion charges in kickback scheme reinstated" by Steve Schultze (Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel 12-13-2007)

"A federal grand jury in Chicago on Thursday reinstated multiple extortion and fraud charges in connection with a hospital construction kickback scheme against P. Nicholas Hurtgen, 44, a former investment banker and one-time top aide to Wisconsin Gov. Tommy G. Thompson."
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=696654

Then there is Tommy's Logistics Health Inc./LHI full of former DoD brass that retired about the time the Walter Reed scandal hit last spring.

LHI has won contracts from this criminal administration to provide health services to active duty NG and reserve troops-even though those services will cost US about a hundred million dollars more than what competing bids were and a formal complaint was entered--that's Tommy, a made man in the BFEE.

I started a thread (that didn't last long)-about LHI that's worth reviewing today and also mentioning to politicians and prosecutors.

"Logistics Health Inc/LHI: A DU collaborative investigation thread" (started 10-29-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. More BFEE made man Tommy Thompson related facts...
Let's start with all those private companies contracted by TT when he was still Governor, companies that were supposed to streamline the functioning of government and help save tax monies.

One of the latest examples is the repeat performance of EDS Corp. of Plano, TX (contracted to manage much of the State's Medicaid, Medicare, Badgercare and other health service programs at over $20M per year) mailing out info that had clients Social Security numbers printed on them-for the second time.

Gee, a quick engine search reveals that Richard B. Cheney was a member of the Board of EDS Corp...

Then there is the interesting career path of one Reuben Jose King-Shaw Jr who was appointed by Tommy (as DHHS Sect.) in May 2001 to a major position within the Center for Medicaid and Medicare Services/CMS the world's largest health finance organization.

After Tommy's appointment to CMS Reuben Jose King-Shaw Jr. later became an assistant to the Secretary of the Treasury. This BFEE service didn't prevent King-Shaw from engaging in private enterprises (I'm sure the career path was a reward of some type) one was with the co-founder, CEO, President of Athena Health Jonathan Bush Jr.

Jonathan is the son of poppy's bro Jonathan James Bush-the main man of Riggs Bank, some SEC funny biz, and other black budget network things-you can't make this up, I'm deliberately not putting links in this post so that you can check these relationships out for yourselves.

Let's get back to Tommy's appointed guy Reuben Jose King-Shaw Jr-last fall the Well Care corporate offices in Tampa, FL. were raided by state and federal officers, criminal charges are still pending and other investigations have opened/reopened as a result.

Well, Reuben Jose King-Shaw Jr. was the #3 exec at Well Care at the time of the raids.

Now Mr. King-Shaw Jr. has moved to a bigger playing field in the first worldwide health finance business for Hispanics.

And meanwhile, in La Crosse, Tommy's Logistics Health Inc/LHI despite all else (see the post above-formal GAO complaints, etc.) is apparently doing ok...there is a killing to be made when it comes to BFEE's "health care" especially in a recession
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Here's one from the front page of the Journal/Sentinel, the other day.
It's a scandal, fraud is alleged, there's a federal law suit, and Tommy Thompson's name is prominently listed in the opening paragraph of the story.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=708685

Of course, the online version of the article has a "correction", listing amounts that were also contributed to Governor Doyle.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. The Ames Family in Wisconsin
Edited on Thu Feb-28-08 03:20 PM by bobthedrummer
The Ames ancestors came from England and settled in Vermont. By the time of the Civil War one of the family, George Ames, (even though a teenager around 16-17) joined the Union forces and served briefly in the Army of The Potomac.

After the war young George Ames married and moved to Green Bay, WI. He was a foreman in a logging camp. George and his wife had a son, Jesse Hazen Ames.

Jesse Hazen Ames moved to River Falls, WI. where he became an educator and President of the River Falls State Teachers College from 1917-1944. Known as "J.H." he was quite a prominent citizen in River Falls.

Jesse H. Ames also had children, sons and daughters. Most of them would face alcohol related problems in their lives.

One of the sons of Jesse H. Ames (President of River Falls State Teachers College) was born in Brandon, WI. in 1905-Carleton Cecil Ames.

Carleton C. Ames also became an educator. He earned a Master's degree in history at the University of Minnesota and became a teacher in New Richmond, WI. For some reason (possibly alcohol related) Carleton was dismissed from his duties in New Richmond.

Despite objections from faculty and staff Jesse got Carleton a position teaching European and Asian history at River Falls State Teachers College. Carleton settled in that community and married a former student of his, Rachel Aldrich (originally from New Richmond) who was 13 years younger than him. Rachel Aldrich Ames also became an educator.

Carleton and Rachel also had a family. A son was born May 26, 1941 named Aldrich Hazen Ames, but called Ricky by his family.

Carleton had continued advancing his own education and earned a PhD in history in 1949 with a doctoral work on the effect of the British Empire in Burma.

One quiet day in 1951 a visitor from Washington D.C. visited Carleton in River Falls. Carleton was "recruited" by the young CIA which needed "experts" in every field.

Carleton took his intelligence training in 1952 and then was assigned to Rangoon, Burma in 1953 posing as a scholar for a privately funded foundation but really working Counterintelligence for the CIA. This was highly dangerous-it was NOC (Not Official Cover).

Of course his family lived in Rangoon with him for a couple of years. When the Ames family returned to the US Carleton was put on probation for a half a year (due to alcohol related problems) but continued to be employed in Counterintelligence in the CIA.

His son, Aldrich Hazen Ames (Rick) found part time work in the CIA as a young man and applied to be an agent. It took 8 years for Rick to earn a degree and get into the Agency, but he did it. His first assignment was in Turkey, working Counterintelligence/CI.

Rick married a fellow CIA agent, Nancy.

Things went on for Rick in the Agency despite heavy drinking and marital problems, he became the head of Soviet CI and sold his knowledge to the former KGB for millions of $$$.

Aldrich Hazen Ames was arrested for espionage on President's Day February 21, 1994.

Former WH spokesperson DeeDee Meyers remarked on Ames arrest in a Press Briefing the next day (2-22-1994) a transcript of that PB is below.
http://www.loyola.edu/dept/politics/intel/wh-19940222pc...

Ames family history derived from "Betrayal" 1995 by Tim Weiner David Johnston and Neil A. Lewis (Wheeler Publishing Inc) and "Nightmover" by David Wise 1995 (Harper Collins).

On edit-since Sibel Edmonds was asked by a lot of people to translate old case documents (because they didn't trust the translations given at the time of these old cases) I can't help but wonder if any of the material pertained to Aldrich Hazen Ames, super traitor and KGB mole born in River Falls, Wisconsin.



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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
33. "Inconvenient truths about the New Democrats, the Third Way, Democratic Leadership Council, etc"
there are big, powerful moles in the Democratic Party pushing neocon policies that got a lot of funding and other help from our very own Bradley Foundation and other Wisconsin RW assets

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
36. So what crimes are your local RWer's up to? There's so much going on.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. In a giant give-away to a for-profit utility company
Edited on Thu May-15-08 06:37 PM by sybylla
a nearby city has approved paying for the construction of a new "back-up" powerplant which will provide no jobs (though it's touted as economic development) and no back up power to the very city that's building it (though it's touted as necessary for such) and approved it in violation of open meeting laws. But, it's a city whose government machine would match Daley's Chicago, so no surprise there. Unfortunately, there just weren't enough good guys on the city council to stop it.

But other than that, things are suddenly pretty quiet in my county. We ran a chunk of pukes/anti-government libertarians out of the county courthouse in April and slowly things are returning to normal.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. You know what really is getting to all of us sybylla-the "State budget"!!!
It's non-existent, there are no funds-only sophisticated "formulas" from "The Shock Doctrine" team.
:puke: :argh: :puke: :argh: :puke: :argh:

Glad your community did some long overdue housecleaning despite all else.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I hear ya.
And the budget repair bill repairs nothing. It only puts off all the trouble on to schools and local governments and the next legislative session. Even the Dems turned cowardly and refused to do what was necessary because raising taxes in an election year was too unpalatable - or apparently unspinable.

What a shame.

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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
63. They're back! n/t
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'll be updating this in the next few weeks-kick, and it would be nice to see some other posts
by members.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. I gotta be honest, this thread confuses me and freaks me out a bit
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Hopefully there will be less confusion in the coming weeks-truth often seems freaky at first. eom
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
43. Hey, Bob, I realize it's breaking the 1st guideline...
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 11:29 AM by mojowork_n
...the part about associations with "Wisconsin", but interpreting the rule somewhat loosely -- the word "BEER" plays an important part, and our near neighbors to the south ("CHICAGO CRIME FAMILIES") also are involved -- I thought you might be interested in this link, from today's GREATEST threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Excerpt:

"...The public should get a view into the background of Lindner, Keating and McCain, which essentially boils down to big Mafia money that has flowed into the GOP and various extreme Rightist groups around the world since Meyer Lansky made a deal with the Republicans in the mid-1940s. John McCain got onto the mob pad because he was willing to do business, and Cindy's father was a long-time wise guy in the Bronfman-Marley liquor racket. In exchange for their legalized gambling and liquor concessions, Top Bosses Lansky and Giancana straightened up the mob's image in the southwest, in exchange the GOP (along with elements of the CIA) got a piece of the action. See, http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg20 ... ..."



The man in the hat is Kemper Marley...

Following the link in the text excerpt gets you:

"...The best source for an introduction to the environment of
total political corruption in Arizona is the book, THE ARIZONA
PROJECT: HOW A TEAM OF INVESTIGATIVE REPORTERS GOT REVENGE ON
DEADLINE. In graphic detail journalist Michael Wendland links the
most prominent people in Arizona with various organized crime
king pins. Wendland was part of the group called INVESTIGATIVE
REPORTERS AND EDITORS who came to Phoenix in the wake of the
fatal car bombing of the ARIZONA REPUBLIC's investigative
reporter, Don Bolles. It was the conclusion of this group that
Marley, by far the wealthiest man in Arizona, was behind this
murder.
According to intelligence sources of the Phoenix police, who
prepared a background profile of Kemper Marley the week following
the Bolles murder, Marley was at one time directly connected to
the remnants of the old Al Capone mob...

...At one point Marley served as Chairman of the Board of the
VALLEY NATIONAL BANK. When Bugsy Siegel, on instructions from
Meyer Lansky, built the FLAMINGO CLUB, Las Vegas's first casino,
the money was borrowed from the VALLEY NATIONAL BANK.
Al Lizanetz, who served as Kemper Marley's public relations
man for 20 years, is one of the richest sources for background on
the liquor magnate. The Bolles murder was part of a package deal
that was to include a hit on Lizanetz. According to Lizanetz,
the Marley machine placed the highest priority on placing lawyers
in all the key state and municipal positions. The Arizona State
Attorney General during the Keating era, Bob Corbin, worked
formerly for Marley in the insurance industry in the 1950s.
Corbin accepted a $55,000 campaign contribution from Charles
Keating in a race where he was unopposed. Since Corbin did not
have to spend the money in the campaign he got to keep the
$50,000 when he retired. This is significant since S&Ls are
state chartered institutions and it was therefore the
responsibility of State Attorney General Corbin to oversee
Keating's operations.
Marley placed his people in the top positions of the
Department of Public Safety. The county prosecutor was also key
to him. Lizanetz claims that Marley recruited Eugene Pullium to
come to Phoenix to start the ARIZONA REPUBLIC/PHOENIX GAZZETT,
the monopoly newspaper which has succeeded in covering up these
matters. Eugene Pullium is the grandfather of Dan Quayle. Dan
Quayle grew up in the Phoenix suburb of Paradise Valley living
just next door to the founder of the JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY, Robert
Welsh. Quayle's parents were the local JOHN BIRCH coordinators.
Marley's mentor was Sam Bronfman, the progenitor of the
SEAGRAMS empire. When Sam Bronfman visited Marley in Arizona he
came in the company of Al Capone. Lizanetz claims that Jack
Ruby, assassin of Lee Harvey Oswald, was also on the Bronfman
payroll. There may be something to this since Louis Bloomfield,
the family attorney for the Bronfmans, was the chairman of the
board of PERMENDEX, the Italian company whose board also included
Clay Shaw, the man prosecuted by District Attorney James Garrison
for the murder of President Kennedy.
Many have suggested that Charles Keating fell out of favor
with the powers that be and was set up. This is clearly not so.
Ironically, after issuing millions in bribes, the downfall of
Keating's empire began and ended with one minor public official
who was not for sale. Charlie was playing fast and loose with
the rules but he did have his end game well planned.
In order to buy time for his failing company, Keating
resorted to selling AMERICAN CONTINENTAL bonds through the
affiliates of his S&L, LINCOLN SAVINGS. Telephone solicitors
were paid to call LINCOLN CD holders just prior to expiration
dates and advise them to roll over their investments into ACC
bonds. This was good for $230 million of keep alive money.
While the higher rate of interest was mentioned, the fact that
these bonds were not federally insured was not. But these minor
infractions would all be covered by Keating's most grandiose of
all grandiose schemes.
The most precious resource in Arizona is water. Keating was
going to pay off his bondholders with the profits he was going to
make through his near successful attempt to monopolize the water
supply for the city of Phoenix!
In Arizona there are five water tables from which water can
be pumped -- an enterprise known as water farming. Keating
arranged a $200 million dollar loan through LINCOLN SAVINGS for
Ron Ober, Senator Dennis DeConcini's campaign manager. The grand
plan was for Ober to purchase all the land suitable for water
farming in La Paz county just south of Phoenix that Keating did
not already own. Then Keating engineered a bill for the Arizona
legislature that stipulated that the city of Phoenix would be
legally obligated to purchase 100% of Keating's and Ober's water
before they could purchase a drop from anyone else!
Since Keating and Ober were planning to pump a million acre
feet of water a year at a thousand dollars an acre foot that
meant profits in the hundreds of millions -- far more than was
necessary to pay off the bondholders. In fact Keating and Ober
would have been well on their way to Rockefeller status wealth.
Since Senator DeConcini had purchased land in the other five
suitable water tables he would have made out ever better. This
plan was probably conceived by the more cautious DeConcini who
intended to use Keating and Ober for stalking horses for his own
business interests. Such grandiose scams can only be attempted
when one can count on the local media to keep secrets and law
enforcement to look the other way.
Despite some obstreperous lower level officials at the
Federal Home Loan Bank Board everything was going like clockwork
for Keating. While everyone slept and no one even heard of this
water legislation, Keating's bill sailed through the Arizona
House of Representatives in a record 2 days. It would have done
the same in the state senate except for one man -- State Senator
Jerry Gilespie. Another man in Jerry's position could have
parlayed for a suit case full of hundred dollar bills. But Jerry
killed the bill without wasting a heart beat. In the next senate
election a massive amount of funding showed up for Jerry's
opponent. Today Jerry heads up the BO GRITZ FOR PRESIDENT
CAMPAIGN in Arizona.
This fascinating water story made it onto the cover of the
November 1989 issue of PHOENIX MAGAZINE under the very
appropriate title PARASITES IN OUR WATER. This unbelievable
account of greed and corruption was believable only because
it was written by 5 term congressman Sam Steiger. Even so, no
wire services picked it up. This article is the first national
coverage of Keating's failed end game.
Things still looked rosy on May 20, 1988 when Keating threw
a lavish champagne party at his Headquarters celebrating what
Keating imagined to be his final victory over the Federal Home
Loan Bank Board. Keating always kept magnums of Dom Perignon
chilled for special occasions. FHLBB examiners in San Francisco
had been motioning to close down LINCOLN SAVINGS. Thanks to
backing from John McCain and Dennis DeConcini and the other
"Keating Five" senators LINCOLN SAVING's FHLBB files had that day
been moved to Washington D.C. where they were guaranteed to
receive much more favorable treatment.
At the height of this rancorous party, Keating ripped off
his shirt to reveal a tee shirt with a skull and crossbones
superimposed over the letters FHLBB. As one top exec poured cold
champagne down the front of one secretary's brassiere, Keating
threw a computer and a typewriter out through the glass of second
story windows. Everyone there roared with approval. The $1
million in bribes to senators seemed well spent. But there was
something Keating had not considered -- one $15,000 per year
state senator who did not have a price.


__________________________

** Walter J. Bush, nephew to the president, is involved in
business with Keating, flying the banner AMERICAN CONTINENTAL
LAND INVESTMENT CORPORATION at 2777 East Camelback. Walter
closed down and moved out of this location the week Keating filed
Chapter 11.


This was written in 1998, so the "president" referred to in the paragraph above is the "prudent" Bush, H.W., Sr.

Still, in the context of recent comparisons of the McCain's and Obama's residences -- and all that shocking (SHOCKING!) stuff about Tony Rezko, and "business as usual" in Chicago politics -- and which of the two candidates is more "out of touch" with us common folks, the LONG
VIEW here is pretty revealing. (Even if it is the stuff of 'conspiracy theory.')

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Thanks for your research mojowork_n!
Here's a few links related to another extreme RW character that I'm researching former Wisconsin Congressman Charles Joseph Kersten, Chairman of The House Select Committee on Communist Aggression, and a leader of the World Anti-Communist Steering Committee-Kersten was an Eisenhower White House "psychological warfare" advisor.

Also a contemporary of Joseph McCarthy as well as involved with "former" Nazis that were operatives of various intelligence organizations.

The " enemy lists" compiled by a whole range of folks from John Edgar Hoover to Richard Bruce Cheney were passed around from generation to generation.

Charles J. Kersten was a big part of that. Here's his Wiki bio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_J._Kersten

Namebase has a Kersten social network page that is much deeper.
http://www.namebase.org/main1/Charles-Kersten.html

Right Web has group watch profiles on a couple of the organizations (American Security Council, Western Goals Foundation) that were associated with or spun off from some of Kersten's career-both overt and covert--this included those "lists" which have continued to expand.

American Security Council profile
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/asc.html

Western Goals Foundation profile
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/gw/2817.html

Third World Traveler also has a page related to some of the history of Kersten in the context of Reagan and Iran-Contra.

"Growth of Reagan's Contra Commitment"
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald_Reagan/ReaganC...

More about Charles J. Kersten later.

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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Just re-posting a 'greatest theads' link. But it is a fascinating story.
Edited on Mon Aug-25-08 08:34 PM by mojowork_n
I've never forgotten the murder (by car bomb) of "Arizona Project" reporter Don Bolles. I remember wondering how something like that could ever happen, in a democracy, with a free press and impartial justice system...

It was a long time ago, in a far away state, but the story still has relevance.

Cindy McCain's old man, Jim Hensley, was convicted on Federal charges of a felony, a few years after WWII. He was almost convicted a second time, on similar charges, but he had some high-priced legal talent on his side -- William Rehnquist, Milwaukee's own Supreme Court Chief Justice. Police investigations later tied Hensley to bookmakers and organized crime, but after a couple of decades of below-the-surface rumblings and covering up (?), the investigative research seems to have ended, when the car bomb blew up Don Bolles.

This Kossack stumbled across some of the sordid details:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/19/91954/3445

but the opinions and comments that followed were very divided, ranging from:

"This needs to go viral!"

and...

"McCain deliberately married into a mob-connected family to bankroll his political career." (Cindy McCain is really Meadow Soprano!)

to...

'It's not nice, going after a candidate's family is off limits.'

The "New Republic" had a lengthy piece on John & Cindy, but it's frothy, light and fluffy "Soap Opera Digest" stuff:

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=0fd7470d-a41f...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Charles J. Kersten was associated with so many extreme RWers
Edited on Tue Aug-26-08 06:52 PM by bobthedrummer
some of whom spoke openly of their happiness when President Kennedy was assassinated, like Adolf Tscheppe-Weidenbach who was known as Col. Charles Willoughby, General MacArthur's intelligence chief.

Charles Willoughby profile from Spartacus Schoolnet
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwilloughbyC.htm

Public Eye also has a useful historic research tool about many extreme RW groups.

"Groups Promoting Oppression and Right Wing Agendas"
http://www.publiceye.org/research/directories/dem_grp_u...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
47. There's a lot going on, this thread needs your participation-I'll kick it for visibility today.
Add your own Wisconsin related posts to this ongoing data dump.

Attorney General Van Hollen deserves a mention, here's a link to an active LBN thread about the 2007 Grand Master of Wisconsin Masons

"Van Hollen attorney met with GOP officials before election suit" (started 9-20-2008)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
48. A call for participation in this thread...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I am less & less involved in online activism yet always look for posts in this well-read thread
eom
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Glad to see your post. Have you seen the site here to
remove Scott Walker? I thought you might want to add something.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Considering that Mark Green took all that illegal RNC $ when he ran for Gov & wound up in Tanzania
(his dad was a South African doctor) and never looked back--well I'm doing a lot of stuff and nothing surprises me either midnight.
:loveya:
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lindawye Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. A call for participation...
I have just found this interesting forum, but have not yet had time to read all the posts. I am a freelance reporter following up on information that there is an active KKK group in Monroe, WI. A couple of weeks after I started investigating this information I found on the SPLC web site, the group's web site was shut down and their PO Box in Monroe was canceled.

Some of my information leads in these directions: There are possibly people who are sympathetic to the Klan and/or other hate groups in New Glarus, and possibly affiliated with "Red Shirt" groups. A few weeks ago a large swastika was painted with black spray paint on a bridge in the rural Blanchardville area. It was recently removed/painted over. I have heard a report of racial harassment of a biracial family in the Blanchardville/New Glarus area. The original Monroe KKK web site mentioned involvement in the group by members of local law enforcement agencies.

Additionally, several years ago I covered Klan activity in the Brodhead area for the local newspaper. Recently I found some Aryan Nations and Kingdom Ministries racist literature in a kiosk at the Juda Oasis gas station truck stop. I would also like information about any hate groups/activities in the Brodhead/Juda areas. And does anyone know if the Posse Comitatus compound located in Avon Township (near Brodhead and about a mile from the Klan campground a few years ago) still exists and is still active?

If anyone knows anything about these matters or any other hate group activities and presence in southern Wisconsin, I would greatly appreciate hearing from them. As a professional journalist, I would greatly prefer anyone with specific information to allow me to use his/her name for attribution. However, on this sensitive topic, if anyone prefers to remain anonymous, I will respect that wish and will keep your identity confidential unless you change your mind at a later time.

Thanks!

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Welcome to DU-I'll PM you my phone # when you are able to get PM's. Hate groups abound here n/t
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-27-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
54. Dr. Michael A. Persinger, UW-Madison 1967
Edited on Tue Oct-27-09 02:52 PM by bobthedrummer
Dr. Persinger also attended Carroll College when he lived in our State. Dr. Persinger is the Head of the Neuroscience Research Group at Laurentian University in Canada.

Dr. Michael A. Persinger
http://oldwebsite.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_people/Persin...

I only recently became aware of his Wisconsin connections-but I've been mystified by much of his work which incorporates everything from relationships between geology and UFO reports (Tectonic Strain Theory 1975); using the atmosphere to influence all human minds via directed energy (link below)

On The Possibility Of Accessing Every Human Brain By Electromagnetic Induction Of Fundamental Algorithms 1995
http://www.ncbi.nih.gov/pubmed/7567396

and a lot of other high strangeness involving drugs, directed energy, neuroscience, alien abduction reports, the miracle of Fatima, and much of what is called the paranormal. I put him in the black ops wing related to mind control/directed energy weapons.

He has a general theory about God that is referenced in much of his work, below is a Wired article from 1999 that explores this overarching theme of Dr. Persinger.

"This Is Your Brain On God" by Jack Hitt (November 1999 Wired)
"Michael Persinger has a vision-the Almighty isn't dead, he's an energy field. And your mind is an electromagnetic map to your soul"
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html

There is a commercial product available based on Dr. Persinger's research (and you just have to believe that there are many classified things out in the real world too based on his theories) the "God Helmet"

God Helmet Technology
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/shiva/God%20Helmet/inde...

Here's Dr. Persinger's Wikipedia entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Persinger

Nobody can make these things up, I always hope to see more posts by others in this omnibus Wisconsin thread.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
55. Apparently The Wallace J. Hilliard Fund is still acceptable to the Wisconsin Emerging Scholars/WES
but I wouldn't want $ that came from "profits" derived from narcotics, arms, torturers, mercenaries and a lot of other black ops using Wally's air assets. It's ok with the UW though as far as I can tell.

Think about it, my fellow UW System alumni (Class of 1992 UWGB here-I once was in Wally's former American Medical Security's headquarters with others seeking "honest" employment, it was "creepy").

Below is another Wally story worth reading by a very courageous investigative journalist.

"Did Wally Hilliard Run 'Ghost Airline' for the CIA?" by Daniel Hopsicker (10-19-09 Madcow Morning News)

"At the same time Wallace J. Hilliard's Huffman Aviation was teaching a still-unidentified number of suspected terrorists, including many, like Souheil Seddik, who remain unknown to the general public, he was also assembling a fleet of twin-engine turboprop Jetstream airliners for the launch of his new start-up airline Florida Air."

http://www.madcowprod.com/10192009.htm
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
56. I'm not moving on, there's plenty to see along this rightwinged road to hell....
whoever wants to contribute should add something to this thread TODAY.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
57. I'm really getting into the thermonuclear (H-bomb) crew, especially U-W's Cornelius Everett. More on
this soon.

As always, feel free to add to this thread.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. After researching a bit more (and real WMD still classified) plus the sad demise of Oppenheimer's
wife Kitty (who was at UWM too)-it's too much for this thread.

Whoa, it's similar to one of those Joe McCarthy flashbacks...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
59. We are now a Red State- this thread will be updated shortly n/t
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. We are.... I don't ever remember Wisconsin being a red state....
I suppose with the brain drain under Thompson, and the uber religious not wanting any progress in education, science, or else where for that matter has voted in lots of money in exchange for quality.....
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-04-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I used to call Tommy "the man who sold the world" reflecting his vanguard of "privatization" of
everything first in Wisconsin then USA and then the known universe-it's coming again because no one applied the rule of law to this apparatchik criminal and his deep pocketed extremist pals from Milwaukee (The Bradley Foundation et al) midnight.

Well, since we are now a Red State, I encourage you (and others that have gleaned things from this thread over the years) to add some of your thoughts, links and history about how our State has gone Forward into being Red-shifted, adding to this thread in the next few days.

I use my library network to go online, my abode is Internet free.

It's on them now. The people that know their deep politics here must keep on them to apply the rule of law to themselves first....
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
62. The man identified in these newspaper clippings walked away free from a federal grand jury
in Milwaukee in 1970. He was called Eugene "Tiny" Krienert in these pics. He is/was a murderer and human trafficker. Some of us are trying to determine if he's alive or dead-including my Congressman's office (Ron Kind).

This man represents what I call domestic black ops.



The photo below was taken at a Washington DC underpass in a Jan. 1990 event sponsored by the late DC activist Mitch Snyder.


If any one has info about "Tiny" PM me.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. My local Sheriff confirmed to me on July 1 that (according to his sources) this operative is in
Edited on Mon Jul-25-11 12:28 PM by bobthedrummer
some type of a protective program, and once again the DEA was mentioned as a "sponsor".

There is no statute of limitation for murder-what about when "the government" employs murderers for politicized domestic black operations? This has been among my experiences here as an American citizen. Welcome to my world.
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
64. Almost a year since the last post here...
But considering where we are now I think this needs a kick!
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Thanks-there is indeed our current state to consider when reviewing this thread nebenaube n/t
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
67. There must be a substantial reason that this old thread has 22,294 reads.
That's because of the truth it contains. Add to it, DU.

RECALL SCOTT WALKER!
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