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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:55 AM
Original message
DU made the Front Page of the Cincinnati Enquirer!
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 11:57 AM by VolcanoJen
Oh, how exciting!! KEEP IT UP, everyone... we are really, really making waves now!

Here's the online version; the print version appeared on the front page of today's Enquirer! Do be prepared for the Enquirer's version, in a sidebar, of why we're all nuts. :eyes:

For some, Ohio still is not decided

Excerpt:

WASHINGTON - You thought the presidential election was over in Ohio?

President Bush, Sen. John Kerry, the Ohio secretary of state, and both national and state Democratic and Republican parties certainly think so.

But on the Web, in e-mails, on radio and on television, a mounting chorus of Kerry supporters is pushing the notion that Bush won Ohio through fraud, conspiracies or voting machine malfunctions.

"We know there have been way too many voting irregularities for this to be a glitch," said Lisa Kelly, 45, of Middletown, Del., one of the army of Kerry supporters calling and e-mailing anyone she can to reopen the election in Ohio. "I think it is a concerted effort to affect the outcome of the election in a fraudulent manner."

"A shroud of Kremlinesque secrecy surrounds the entire process," said Simon Glickman, 40, of Los Angeles, who wants to see an investigation into Secretary of State Ken Blackwell's activities. "It's abundantly clear, now, that there's funny business going on."

Through Web sites like www.democraticunderground.org , www.blackboxvoting.org , www.dailykos.com , www.indyvoter.org , www.freepress.org and even one called www.recountohio.org , anti-Bush forces are pushing for investigations, recounts and even a retraction of Kerry's concession.
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. hmmm...
If they don't think our claims are legit, why pay any attention to them?
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Well, we keep talking to people outside our own DU community.
The more we network, the more questions are raised by more people, the more they need to spin the debunk loudly.

Nice try, but I don't think so, MSM...
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. ".ORG" ... ? On edit... I guess it reconciles to com anyway...
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 11:59 AM by Misunderestimator
never mind... :)
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Oh, crap!
:-(

I didn't notice that. Fortunately, DU owns the "org" domain as well, so readers are still directed to our site!
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. and keep this by your bedside.....
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Love the new screenname!
It looks great on you! :D
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. i LOVE that pix of dumbo!!
makes me laugh everytime I see it! Hey, see you all SOON!!!

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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. nice.
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WhiteKnight1 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. The 3893 extra Bush votes in one Ohio Precinct
/*

About me:
I have a graduate degree in computer science, and more than 15 years of experience as a software engineer working with highly reliable systems.I have a knack for looking at the results of software failures and figuring out what's wrong with the code. For now, I prefer to remain anonymous and will go by the handle: WhiteKnight
(email: [email protected]).


About the bizzare vote counts in one Ohio Precinct:

After seeing the Associated Press story titled "Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes", I started thinking about the numbers reported in the story, whichare:

Votes for Bush: 4258
Votes for Kerry: 260
Total number of voters: 638

It also says that Bush "actually received 365 votes". That means there must have been 13 votes for other candidates (638-260-365 = 13).


I wondered how this result could have been produced. They called it a "failure", but I know a lot about how systems can fail, and this sounded fishy. Why were Kerry's vote totals recorded properly, but not Bush's? It's much more likely that a system failure would cause either no vote totals to be recorded at all, or that both totals would be corrupted.

I suppose it could have been a hardware failure that occurred right after Kerry's vote total had been written to storage, and just as Bush's was being written. But that's likely to be a very narrow time window. It's possible, but sounds like a very rare failure mode. It just seems odd that out of the whole universe of possible failures, we get a failure that records Kerry's votes correctly, and corrupts Bush's total.

Think of it this way: In basketball you know there are many ways a shot can fail to go in. It can go off the glass and miss, it can bounce off the front of the rim, rattle out, airball etc... etc... But there is one particular failed shot that's very rare: when the ball comes in at just the right trajectory with just the right speed, and it lodges between the rim and the backboard - just sticks there. I've seen it happen maybe a couple of times in years of watching the NBA.

So think of the odds of a failure that records Kerry's votes correctly, but corrupts Bush's as analogous to the ball jamming there between the rim and backboard. Pretty rare failure huh? Well, it gets even worse:

Why was the number off by only several thousand?

If the votes are added up using a 4 byte unsigned integer, then the possible values range from 0 to 4,294,967,296 (over 4 Billion). If a random bit error or hardware storage error occurred, then why didn't Bush get say 3,239,568 extra votes in this particular "failure"? Most true failures would result in some wild number that you would immediately recognize as garbage.

The analogy here is: not only did the basketball lodge between rim and glass, but the Spalding logo ended up perfectly horizontal, aligned front and center.

Given all of this, I decided to explore ways that vote counting software could end up with these particular results. Was someone adding a percentage to the Bush votes? Was there some multiplier involved?

After thinking about it for an hour or so, I decided to take a different tack: think like the person who is trying to rig the election. What would you do? You wouldn't really want to change the total number of voters. That might be too easy to detect given people being checked off on voter roles. Instead you would want to shift votes from one candidate to another. Maybe every 10th vote for kerry, you'd instead give to Bush.

OK, that's pretty easy to program, but it wouldn't expain the bizzare results in this one precinct in Ohio. But... what if the evil programmer made a mistake? Maybe one line of code had an error they didn't catch.

I decided to write a small vote counting program, and add in a function to steal every 10th vote. Once that was working I'd introduce a small error and see if the results came close the Ohio results reported by AP.

The program below is the result.

As you will see, there is one line of code that is supposed to add a stolen vote to Bush's total, and should be written as:

b = b + 1;

but (I theorize) it was mis-typed as:

b = b + k;

So instead of adding one stolen vote to Bush's total, it adds the running total of Kerry votes to Bush's total. Whoops!

The output from the program with the typo in place is:

starting election
Election results: b: 4258 k: 260 o: 13
(the actual votes: b: 336 k: 288 o: 14)

The output from the program with the typo corrected is:

starting election
Election results: b: 365 k: 260 o: 13
(the actual votes: b: 336 k: 288 o: 14)

So the intent was to shift 29 votes from other candidates to Bush, but the one-line programming mistake gives him an extra 3922 votes.

I'm not saying this proves that this is what happened, but it does indeed prove that a small, one-line programming error by an evildoer programmer could produce the results seen in this one Ohio precinct.

-WhiteKnight

p.s. Please circulate this as far and wide as possible. Thanks!

*/
#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>

// Vote totals for b=Bush k=Kery o=Other
int b=0, k=0, o=0;
// The set of "real" books:
int breal=0, kreal=0, oreal=0;

//
// Here's the hypothetical "patch" that the evildoer programmer
// might have written:
//
void robOhio(int creal, int* c) {
// Look for every 10th vote from this candidate:
if ((creal % 10)==0) {
// OK, here's the bug. Should have been
// b = b + 1;
// Give the vote to b
b = b + k;
// Take it away from other candidate:
*c = *c - 1;
}
}


int main() {
char votes<1000>;
//
// Here are the votes in a hypothetical order that I made up.
// So in this example, the first two votes went to Kerry, the
// next two to Bush, then one for Kery, one for Bush, one for
// Other, and so on.
//
// The order of the votes does affect the final numbers but,
// even if you change the order, the rough order of magnetude
// of the bogus results stays about the same.
//
//0 1 2 3 4 5
//12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
strcpy(votes,"KKBBKBOKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 50
strcat(votes,"KKBBKBKKOBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKOBKKBKKBKKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 100
strcat(votes,"KKBBKBBKBKKKBBKBBKBBKKBOKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 150
strcat(votes,"KKBKKBBKKBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBOKKBKKKBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 200
strcat(votes,"KKBKBBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKKBKBBKBOKKKBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 250
strcat(votes,"KKBBKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBOKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 300
strcat(votes,"KKKBKBBKBBKKKBKBKKBBKKBKKOKKBKKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 350
strcat(votes,"KKBKKBBKBBKKBBKKBKBOKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 400
strcat(votes,"KKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 450
strcat(votes,"BKKBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 500
strcat(votes,"KKKBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 550
strcat(votes,"KKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKKKKBBKBKKKBOKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); // 600
strcat(votes,"KKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKOBKOBKKBOKBOKKBBKBBK"); // 638

printf("starting election\n");

// Start counting votes:
for (int i=0; i<strlen(votes); i++) {
char v = votes;
if (v=='B') {
b = b + 1;
breal = breal + 1;
} else if (v=='K') {
k = k + 1;
kreal = kreal + 1;
// This is not a vote for b, so steal some votes:
robOhio(kreal, &k);
} else if (v=='O') {
o = o + 1;
oreal = oreal + 1;
// This is not a vote for b, so steal some votes:
robOhio(oreal, &o);
}
}
printf("Election results: b: %d k: %d o: %d\n",b,k,o);
printf("(the actual votes: b: %d k: %d o: %d)\n",breal,kreal,oreal);
}


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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Wow. That is very, very interesting. Thanks for posting this.
:kick:
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ComplimentarySwine Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. That just begs the question to me though...
how could they POSSIBLY not have caught this during testing? Obviously bugs get past testing all the time (look at Windows), but it was my understanding that it was because not every possible scenario was tested. However, in a situation such as this, the only scenarios that should need to be tested to expose the bug would be 5 votes for Bush, 5 for Kerry, and 5 for other, right? How could they have missed THAT?

Nevertheless, very intersting...
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Testing is a bit of a joke, actually
in most places. The voting machine companies got the states and other jurisdictions to sign off on very weak standards, and the federal standards are virtually non-existent (or so outdated as to be meaningless is probably a better way of saying it).

Certification is a joke too. Don't get me started.
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Kukesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Wow! That makes my head spin.
But, then, I'm code-challenged.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. That's great. We also need to think about how a cheater can cheat
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 02:33 PM by rosebud57
with punchcard ballots. The program that counts them? Is this too risky because, the ballots are evidence that can be recounted.

If you wanted to cheat how would you? Could prepunched ballot cards have been swapped in? What companies sell punch cards and do they come in different paper stocks? What if the perforations are "off" and those ballots are only shipped to dem precincts. Of the 93,000 under/overvotes for president in Ohio, where do these 93,000 ballots come from?

Why did Warren County tell a bald faced lie about Homeland Security, one they got caught telling and why was it so important that no press was present?
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. The votes in question reside on a hardware
cartridge and are counted by hardware reader specifically designed to do so. If your theory were correct we would see the same problem all over the county. A second reader read the cartridge just fine and the totals it gave matched those stored in the in-machine memory.

It seems to me that the most likely explanation is hardware failure. That one cartridge or the specific reader had some kind of defect.

I find the theory that one cartridge or reader was specially programmed (this is hardware remember not a PC) to benefit Bush in machines that we have been using in Franklin county for over 10 years to be ... well highly unlikely is probably the kindest way to say it.

The real fraud in Ohio was the use of political maneuvering to determine who could vote the easiest, which provisionals would count, and whose votes would be more likely to "spoil" in counties that still use punch cards, and had nothing to do with electronic voting. IMHO



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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. What about the punchcards themselves. Who ordered them?
who supplied them and what quality controls are in place?

In other words if I want dem majority wards to have even higher than normal spoilage rates, how would I pull that off?

Also the 93,000 punchcards with either no vote for presidebt or an overvote, what precincts do they represent and is the distribution equal?
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I don't know what the distribution is.
They will only look at them once there is a recount. So it is only speculation (informed through Greg Palast and memory of 2000).

The way you do it is to put punch card readers in the white districts. So when white people vote they run their card through the machine and if it doesn't read they go back and fix it. In the minority districts they don't have those machines. So if their ballots can't be read they just stay that way. That's what they did in Fla 2000 (and nationwide where, for instance, black's votes spoiled at a rate of 9 to 1 when compared to white's votes). Palast claims the same for Ohio 2004.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. but if there were two batches of punchcards and the punchcards that
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 07:32 PM by rosebud57
were different paper stock or preperforated in an off register manner went to preselected dem districts. Do the companies who make the machines also produce the punchcard ballots?

When Warren County counted their punchcards what would the lawyer Jeff Ruppert have been looking for? He stated he had to split his time between two areas, the absentee ballot room and the main room.

FL 2000 is not quite applicable to Ohio because minority vs. white spoilage was exacerbated by differing voting methods, punchcard being the minority system. In Ohio the majority of counties are still using punchcard. So if the GOP wants to enhance minority spoilage how would they go about it? There are 93,000 uncounted punchcards in Ohio that either have no vote for president or an overvote. How would we go about getting an accounting of which precincts contributed what number of uncounted punchcards?

If they stole Ohio, they either manipulated the counting or manipulated the spoilage rate. The precinct in Ohio with the 4000 extra votes for Bush was not punchcard I believe.

I think we need to be open to thinking about how the actual punchcards could be part of the fraud.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I told you how.
Re-read the post above. They place card readers in the white districts and whites get to check their cards BEFORE turning them in and blacks don't. That equals fewer hanging chads etc for whites. Black voters do not get to "catch" those sorts of problems up front so the first time the machine sees the problem is after they are long gone instead of still right there to fix it like in the white districts.

Different paper stock? Possible I suppose. Doesn't seem likely but surely possible.

A full accounting of the situation (including vote totals) would be accomplished by a recount only. They won't even look at spoiled votes if there isn't someone asking for a recount (go here for an Ohio recount: http://votecobb.org) . For just raw distribution now that we might be able to do. This article, http://www.cleveland.com/election/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/109956457262001.xml , had this to say:

Kerry also had an opportunity in Ohio to follow the Al Gore playbook and demand a recount of some 92,672 discounted votes for president, including 12,953 in Cuyahoga County.


Now initially that looks like a pretty big chunk for Cuyahoga County (roughly 14 percent), but they are big and not all counties do punch cards so it might be ok. Where to get all the numbers. Well I'll try and find out ;-)

Correct on the 4000. Danahur machines in Franklin County did that. Maybe I wasn't clear on the fact it was an electronic system?
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. OK but I am in Ohio I voted punch cards and there was no prereading
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:12 AM by rosebud57
You said:

"Kerry also had an opportunity in Ohio to follow the Al Gore playbook and demand a recount of some 92,672 discounted votes for president, including 12,953 in Cuyahoga County.


Now initially that looks like a pretty big chunk for Cuyahoga County (roughly 14 percent), but they are big and not all counties do punch cards so it might be ok. Where to get all the numbers. Well I'll try and find out ;-)"

"The (punch card) ballots are used in 69 of Ohio's 88 counties, representing nearly 73 percent of registered voters.

The ACLU argues that these ballots are more likely to go uncounted than votes cast with other systems and that use of the ballots violates the voting rights of blacks, most of whom live in punch-card counties.

The state says it's working as fast as it can to replace punch cards, but problems with electronic voting technology have stalled the effort."

OK so lets assume that any county with more than 12% African Americans is using punchcards and that the 19 counties who don't are lily white. Chances are those lily white counties don't have enough white voters to cancel out the big urban counties. You are a cheater and you don't want to chance that African Americans in concert with liberal urban whites and college age voters will win this election for John Kerry. However in those urban punch card counties you do have pockets of white Bush voters, who because of segregation can be identified at the precinct level. You don't want to chance losing those votes to spoilage. How do you increase spoilage in black precincts and not risk increasing it in white precincts? I am almost positive in punch card counties that white precinct punch cards are not preread to look for undervotes or overvotes. I can't be positive because I live in a democratic integrated precinct. Any Ohio punch card voters who live in white neighborhoods see prereading of punch cards to check for under/overvotes?

All I am trying to do is think like a criminal. If you wanted to accomplish fraud and a big part of your equation is Ohio and that means punch card counties how do you ensure that you have guaranteed a win? Spoilage is not precise enough unless you can control and predict spoilage.


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Jazzgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. I am just now seeing this.
I just finished a little C class and actually kinda understand what you've done. I really do see how easy it would be to do this very thing. Great work!

BTW, welcome to DU! :hi:
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Very interesting. The explanations for these so-called glitches have not
made much sense to me. Here's my non-techies' rant from yesterday about glitches.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=45083

I'm going to post your reply as its own thread in the 2004 Election Results and Discussion Forum. Many people won't see it here as a reply in this forum.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x48519
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Hobbes199 Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. Fellow coder...
and that makes more than just a little sense.

Good job.
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. We're all just crazyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Even Trevas, the spokesman for the state Democratic Party, said some of the calls that have come into state headquarters have been "crazy."

"We're trying to ferret out any suspicious activity, and if somebody has something then we'll go after it," he said. "But at this point, everything that seems to be suspicious is getting an answer provided ... The Internet is just fueling this stuff. What can you do?"


That pesky internet - you know - the one where all the tin-foil hatters live - it's just CRAZY - what can ya do?

Bastards. Best go make myself some tin foil undies too......

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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Take into consideration this is one of the most conservative papers
in existence today, Mongo. That they're reporting anything on this at all is something of a surprise, actually -- I'm a little surprised they'd credit it at all as worthy to write about.

The Cincinnati Enquirer has functioned as the propaganda wing of the Cincinnati and HamCo GOP for so long, it's a wonder they brought themselves to write about that mess in Warren County, too, where they locked down the main counting facility on reputed 'fake terrorist warning' and didn't want to let the official vote counter for the Dems into the building. I don't know if they did -- can't remember now -- but he said they put him through eight kinds of hell, asking for I.D. and refusing to let him in for a long time, if at all.

Even if they're doing a 'wink-wink, nudge-nudge' story, there will be plenty of people who will read that and then say, "hmm ... I wonder if it's really as crazy as they make it sound?"
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. The lawyer for the dems, Jeff Ruppert said he had to divide his vote
tallying watching duties between 2 rooms. I'm fairly certain he probably pissed a few times also.
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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Well, that's "Cincinnati fair," isn't it?
Force the guy to deal with a clusterf*ck like that. Typical. I grew up in Clermont -- I know what they're about.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Cheaters also use "wranglers"
Just like in magic it's all about the diversion. Wranglers are people who suddenly accost the observers with conversation.
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onedgeinak Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. Ohio election
Sure seemed like a lot of Kerry signs in Akron to only get 58% of the Summit Co. vote.
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