Taxes Not Seen as Making the Rich Flee New York

[DuaneBidoux]

Source: New York Times

It is perhaps the most potent argument offered by those who oppose increasing the income tax on wealthy New Yorkers: If you raise it, they will flee.

That case has been made repeatedly by Gov. David A. Paterson, who says that higher taxes should be a last resort. It has been featured in a campaign by Taxpayers for an Affordable New York, a coalition of real estate and business interests. And it has been on the mind of Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, New York City’s richest person, who said in a radio interview, “You can’t tax too much those that can move.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/nyregion/19leave.html?_r=1

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How about you? Alabama with no taxes or NY with high taxes. Easy choice for me.

[Raine1967]

1. I am starting to wonder

If the Gov is a (D) or and (R)....

[onehandle]

3. He won't survive the upcoming primary.

My understanding is that New York has had enough of him.

He had better lose or not enter the primary. The GOP would clean his clock.

[Liberalynn]

12. As a citizen of New York State

Patterson won't get my vote in the primary. He is a corporate and Puke butt kisser who not only do I wish would announce he won't run in the primary all ready, but would resign now and let a real Democrat take over.

I dislike him as much as I disliked Pataki who I called Puke Pecker Head his entire eight years in office. There is no difference between the two, IMHO.

Now Andrew Cumo I would vote for.

[bemildred]

2. Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out.

Enjoy your new home in some "tax haven" or other.

[hedgehog]

4. Next question: what is the role of taxes and regulations in the

relocation of existing businesses and location of new businesses? If businesses move to low tax/low regulation states, do they have hidden costs due to lack of infrastructure, lack of well educated work force, higher wages needed to attract managers and technical people, etc?

For example: Company A leave New York because of high taxes. Manager B moves to the new state, but demands an extra $10,000 a year due to the fact that it costs more to send his children to a private school instead of the local public school. The plant loses 5 days of production a year when the local roads are closed because of a snow storm.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. There have been a number of studies over the years...

showing the total costs of moving-- taxes, labor, transaction costs, transportation costs, land and capital costs... I can't point to any of them right off the top of my head, but historically the total costs tend to be lower.

And there's those state and local subsidies designed to steal businesses away from other states that make the deals so much sweeter. Sometimes, they'll even open a public school to train your workers.

Long before the export of jobs to Mexico, China or India, we in the northeast were crying about places like Alabama and North Carolina making deals that just couldn't be refused to get plants to move down there. The rust belt had the same problem.

(In NY, we even had to fight off New Jersey stealing our jobs right across the Hudson.)

[mbperrin]

10. Motorola turned themselves into an also-ran with relocations.

Invented the cell phone, had a 100% market share, began moving plants elsewhere, paid some quality and time penalties, and voila, Motorola no longer the most sought after phones in the world.

They're not out of business, they're just out of the running. Truth is, local taxes are deductible from federal taxes, so there are no net local taxes.

Local example: my town (God bless 'em) decided to "lure" an AT&T "call center" from somewhere up north (we're in west Texas), so they offered no local property taxes for 5 years, free training for employees at the local JC, interest free loan to build the place, and 10% subsidy of salaries by the local industrial development board.

Result? Company came, took the goodies, five years later, boarded up, moved to Lubbock for the current best deal. They're in Abilene now, I think.

Result for the town? An empty 20,000 square foot building in an industrial park that never happened. Still empty 8 years later. Also closed one local public swimming pool (out of 3) due to lack of funds.

That's what a race to the bottom gets you - the bottom.

[WriteDown]

6. For me it was NY or NC....

NC was awesome.

[vi5]

7. I live in the NY/NJ area....

..and I've been hearing literally since I was a kid how all these people who live/work in NJ or live in NJ work in NY were going to take their ball and go to North Carolina or wherenever where they could live like kings for what it costs to live up here, taxes, etc.

And you know what? Never happens. Companies from up here transfer to other places, realize they can't get the same number/caliber or people on par with all the MBA's, etc. who have spent their lives dreaming of working in or living in New York City or all the corporate types who have gotten so used to the New York culture, etc.. And the companies move back or go even further away.

Or the people who move down there realize that there just is not the same concentration of or number of jobs as there is up here. There's a reason it's so damn congested here and so many people want to live here. And it's only gotten more so over the years not less.

[knixphan]

9. Zactly.

[WriteDown]

11. Not true at all....

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_nypost-nys_fleeing_taxpayers.htm

[hedgehog]

13. You might want to consider the source on that:

The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research is a largely rightist organization that publishes materials to influence opinion on national and local (New York) issues.


http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/3734.html

[WriteDown]

15. You can look at the census bureau statistics...

They reflect the trend.

[vi5]

14. A Manhattan Institute poll in the NY Post?

I'm not saying my assertion is anything other than anecdotal evidence, and admittedly I'm discussing this from a Northern NJ perspective. So maybe all those people fleeing NYC have just gone across the river to NJ.

The fact is that this alarm has been rung endlessly for at least the past 30 years, and despite the obvious ups and downs of the economy as a whole, there hasn't been a mass exodus from this area and to all those wonderful places down south. And it never happens. I'm sure places like North Carolina have blossomed in that time compared to what they were years ago, but the fact is that taxes or no, high cost of living or no, a person still has many more opportunities and choices in the NYC/NJ/CT area than they do most other places in the country, particularly these southern Utopias where people keep claiming they can live like kings.

[WriteDown]

16. What other choices do you have in NYC?

Considering I was born and raised there, the only thing I really missed was the food. I definitely did not miss the 15K in prop/school taxes I was paying when I left. NC had a beautiful laid back lifestyle and gorgeous beaches. Or course you couldn't get a decent knish or bagel, but it was a small sacrifice. Also, the wildlife I saw on a daily basis was amazing. Fence lizards, anoles, pilliated woodpeckers, bluebirds, etc.

[vi5]

17. I was thinking more of the job market/companies....

Yeah, things like the food, the culture, the shopping and all that is great. But I mean the job market.

I know a lot of people that moved to NC or wherever else and rode into the sunset off claiming how they were going to live like kings down there or whever. And they did. But when they grew to dislike their job or when that job happened to go away it was a lot harder for them to find something that suited them and gave them the same amount of movement and opportunity career wise as they had up here, particularly within the same general commuting time.

It's not a dig at NC or anywhere else, and if someone can make it work for themselves then that's wonderful. Believe me I've more than a few times in the heat of the moment thought about chucking it all away and moving to someplace with a more casual pace of lifestyle. But there's just no doubt that the number of companies and employment opportunities in this area and in NYC and the surrounding areas far outnumbers that of the less expensive cost of living areas in the country.

In fact I know someone in this exact boat now. They moved to NC out of college because it was cheaper to live, he's now at risk of getting laid off and has been looking elsewhere and just does not have the same number of choices or options that he has if he decides to move up this way.

Like I said, if people can do it and be successful then that's wonderful. I might even do the same thing. It's more just to the point of the original post which was "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING BECAUSE OF NY TAXES AND THERE WILL BE A MASS EXODUS!!!!!!" and the fact that this has been talked about for decades and never amounts to much more than some minor statistical blips in population/movement.

[WriteDown]

18. Take a look at the amount of job loss in NYC right now....

Don't get me wrong. NY is still home base and I'll always love it, but I've found that NC, VA, Nashville(strange, I know) and a few others offer there own special features. As far as NC is concerned, look up Research Triangle Park to see some of the companies that are based there. There are a lot of jobs available. Also, Charlotte has exploded in the last couple of years and offers a short trip into the mountains which is an added bonus. Still love NY, but know there are other places out there.

[tyrant888]

8. Not yet, anyway.

But it is foolish to believe that even small increases in taxes do not cause changes in behavior.