For against building new Twins and VIkings stadiums?

[x-g.o.p.er]

For full disclosure, I have two confessions. One, I am a native Minnesotan who no longer lives in the state, and two, I would like to see the Twins and the Vikings get a new stadium, because I think it would hurt Minnesota economically to lose both franchises.

Plus, I am a huge Twins and Vikes fan to this day, and it would sicken me to see them move. But since I don't have any potential tax dollars in the fight, I obviously have no vote, just an opinion.

I have read the proposal for the Vikings plan in Blaine, and honestly, it seems like a pretty good plan. I don't know what the Twins final plan is, so I can't comment. I read in the Star-Trib online that Alice Hausman, DFL-St. Paul, will oppose a plan, although she supported one in the past.

But what is the opinion of those of you who will be affected by public funding of a new stadium(s)?

[Lindacooks]

1. NO, and here's why:

considering the incredible budget cuts made to social services in this state in the last year, funding sports stadiums would be absolutely immoral. The Twins and Vikings can get along just fine with a 20-year-old stadium. How many schools in this state are more than 20 years old?

For God's sake, we obliterated more than 50% of the child abuse prevention programs in this state this year rather than raise taxes. And that's just the tip of the iceberg - there was another 25% cut in funding domestic violence shelter programs. Schools are laying off teachers, police and fire forces are being reduced. And we're supposed to publicly fund playgrounds for multimillionaires?

NO.

[cothomps]

18. This was the same...

... reason that Ventura gave a few years ago! (Paraphrase: "We don't build new schools every 20 years...")

The Twins might have a legitimate gripe, but Vikings ownership does not. WCCO did a story on that awhile back: Red (braindump.. last name?) did not pay anywhere near as much for the Vikings as other owners did for thier teams - and other team owners have had to 'invest' a little money into their teams.

Red basically wants a bargain deal, then dump the cost for improvements on his investment onto the taxpayers.

The problem now is that any reasonable proposal to construct a new stadium for the Twins gets a lot of cries of "unfair!" from Vikings ownership (and fans). All this, despite the fact that the Vikings are getting a much better deal out of the Metrodome situation. (i.e. the Vikings organizations own the boxseats, etc.)

[DFLer4edu]

25. Ditto

You took the words out of my mouth. Public schools are crumbling, the Vikings and Twins can wait.

[MikeG]

2. How old are your present stadia?

[dflprincess]

4. We have one - the Hubert Humphrey Metrodome

usually called "the Dome". I think it's just over 20 years old. It was really built for the Vikings, the Twins were never happy with it and I have some sympathy for them. It's a terrible place for baseball..but I do not support using any public money.

Besides, if they knock the Dome down, where will I roller blade in the winter? It gets opened up for that when nothing else is going on down there and it's a great place for roller blading.

[cosmicaug]

3. Fuck them!

For full disclosure, I have two confessions. One, I am a native Minnesotan who is not a sports fan, and two, I couldn't care less if they get their stadium or not.

If they want a stadium, let them pay for it. Let's have no one stand in their way but let's not subsidize them either.

[Deja Q]

5. While the metrodome is in a crappy location

I do not like welfare for people who do not need it. Twins and Vikings players and managers make millions if not billions. They can pay for it.

A business has to go through ups and downs. To be successful and mooch off of the public is despicable. Especially when many supporters of public funds going to these wealthy creeps don't mind if needy people suffer and die.

I have a huge moral problem with corporate welfare. It's part of the insane bizarroworld we live in.

Besides, all businesses pass on their costs to consumers - even when they are raking in huge profits, they'll still find ways to fleece the consumer.

Will we lose businesses? Probably. What sort of jobs come out of sports teams is the next question, what exactly are we going to lose? Minimum wage part time crap jobs with no benefits. We, as a nation, cannot afford to live in a country composed of minimum wage jobs - especially when it takes 2.4 of them in order to make a liveable wage. My bippy gets burned every time they start hollering "Jobs!!!!!!!!!!! :drool: " It's spin.

People need to take a stand. It's out country. Not theirs.

We need to see corporate responsibility and true government responsibility. Corporate welfare must go. We will not be held to blackmail by a gaggle of degenerate THUGS. (or "economic terrorists" as they're also rightfully called.)

[Ready4Change]

6. Sure! Build em. Just no public dollars.

So much money flows into stadiums, profits are so high, that they easily pay for themselves.

So why on earth do public dollars get used to build them? Only one reason I can think of. The team owners blackmail the state/city with the threat of moving the team unless the owners get a big payoff.

[Morning Dew]

7. My knee jerk reaction

on a new stadium is always NO NO NO !!!!

After the way that the dome got crammed down our throats, I just don't even think about spending public dollars on sport team welfare.

[Supormom]

8. Before you answer...

Find out how much money the owners of the teams have donated to the republican party. It changed my mind on the issue.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. Let the multimillionaire owners

build their own damn stadiums.

And who the hell cares if the teams leave? Why do Twin Citians owe them any loyalty if they're going to resort to blackmail?

You know what? Pro sports are fun for some people, but they're not actually important, not nearly as important to our quality of life as schools, health care, a modernized infrastructure, well-maintained parks, and good urban planning. Sorry to break the news to you, but Minneapolis/St. Paul existed before the Twins and Vikings and will continue to do so if they leave.

Without good schools, health care, a modern infrastructure, well-maintained parks, and good urban planning, we're Detroit, a city that has both baseball and football teams and very little else.

[SaveElmer]

17. They are important

They are important to the quality of life of any city. Sports franchises not only bring in money, they help large metropolitan areas have a sense of community. My Grandfather (RIP), spent the last hours of his life listening to the Twins on the radio. It is alot more important to people than you realize.

No one, not even the most direhard supporter of public financing is suggesting a direct subsidy of the stadium. There are plenty of ways that have minimal budgetary impact for the state to finance the stadium. And I can tell you, living here in Washington DC area, that Baltimore has reaped huge benefits from the stadiums they built for the Orioles and Ravens. That area of downtown is now thriving, and I guarantee they have brought in far more tax revenue than they spent on the financing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Downtown Mpls is thriving with the stadium we have

I came back after 18 years and couldn't believe how much downtown had changed.

It's nice and heartwarming that your grandfather listened to the Twins, but the sports teams have gotten too big for their britches. They think they can blackmail communities into financing them. The multi-millionaire owners could build stadiums with their pocket change, and yet they demand public money in an era when the REAL elements that make a city worth living in (schools, parks, transportation, the arts) are desperate for funding. (Compare the number of people who use the schools, the parks, the bus system, and even the various arts organizations with the numbers who attend Twins or Vikings games or who take the crap minimum wage jobs selling hot dogs at the stadium.)

Why should sports get public funding and not any other private business?

Pro sports are totally out of control in the U.S., and they're finally provoking a backlash.

[SaveElmer]

22. Public financing for private business

It's naive to think that Pro Sports are the only ones getting public financing! Private businesses are probably the largest recipient of government largesse in the United States. From numerous tax breaks, to free infrastructure, private business is very active at the public trough. Pro sports is simply the most visible of these.

Yes, the downtown was revitalized by he dome being there...which by the way was built with public funding. What do you think would happen if the Twins and the Vikings left ? I would venture to say a good number of small business owners would be forced to either move, or more likely, go out of business.

It's not simply a matter of paying for a stadium for rich people. It is an investment in the well being of the state. With an active sports town, these stadiums provide far more revenue to the state than they cost in the first place.

It is a false premise to say that using public funding to help build a stadium means things such as schools, public transportation etc are harmed. It is the same argument that is made whenever a long term investment is proposed. It's like when conservatives say we can't spend mponey to improve the environment because it will hurt business. This is false. In the long run, it helps everyone including business because of lowered costs for health care, post pollution cleanup etc. It is the same here. This stadium, which would be a public facility, to which the owners of the Twins and Vikings would be paying rent, is a wise investment in the fiscal health of the Twin Cities, and the whole state. In the (not so) long run it would provide more money for the investments that need to be made in education etc.

No one is suggesting that the state simply plunk down the money and build the stadium. The owners of the teams will have to contribute a substantial chunk of money, and the rest can be raised through the selling of public bonds, and taxes on things that but for the existence of the stadium and the teams that occupy them, would not exist. These include taxes on tickets, players salaries, merchandise etc. This would have a minimal impact on the state budget and would reap far more in tax revenue.

I agree that Carl Pohlad has been a bit of a hard ass about this whole thing, and the Twins would do better with another owner, but he is just acting like any businessman would. But he won't be the owner of the Twins forever. The Twins are an important part of the social fabric of Minnesota, and it would do more harm than you think to lose them.

[no name no slogan]

10. John Marty was (is) right: NO public funds for team owners

The billionaire team owners and their supporters like to bring out the tired old "what about the jobs the teams bring to the state?"

Are we talking about the millionaire players, or the concession stand workers making $1 above minimum wage?

If we're going to subsidize industries, let's at least subsidize ones that create well-paying jobs for as many people as possible. Pro sports teams getting handouts from a state that can barely keep its schools open is not the solution.

We don't need to subsidize new stadiums for team owners, especially when they will be the ones who get the revenue from non-sports events. Especially in this day and age where schools have levies every year just to get operating funds.

[Something Blue]

11. Not one red cent

no No NO!!!!

A Thousand times NO!

And if they wanna leave I'll hold the door open for them.

[indigo32]

12. How much money is put into the arts?

how much money is the new Guthrie getting? How much money has been put into the more recently built Target and Excel Center?
Finally does any of this matter when we have such draconian cuts being made to social programs? It's just sad. I vote NO.

[myrna minx]

13. The Vikings are under lease with the Dome until 2011.

So they should not have to honor their obligations? This stadium is nothing short of corporate blackmail. I, for one, am tired of the "plight" of the big businessman and their corporate welfare siphon from our treasury. This chaps my hide, considering how the bus drivers were treated by Pawlenty and his thugs. Apparently, we don't have enough money to provide health care for bus drivers, but we can hand over sacks of cash to the owners of the Vikings and Twins, who as stated above, may or may not honor their contracts. UUUGHHH!!!

[x-g.o.p.er]

14. Thanks for the replies!!

It is nice to get some input from folks who still live up there. I see some articles in the Strib a PP online, but I must admit I'm still fairly ignorant on the key issues like funding, overall support, etc. And of course, the articles I read are from the sports section, and they are very pro-stadium.

I could never understand how billionaires would expect thousandaires to pay for their stadium in which they'll reap millions in profits. And we'll pay them a pretty penny to be entertained for a few hours.

With that said, the reason I like the Blaine proposal is because it wasn't only a stadium, it is a full housing development, shopping center, industrial park, restaurants, etc., that I think would bring jobs and middle class housing to the area. Is it welfare for billionaires? Yes, to a point, especially if tax dollars are going to be used. But if it's also used to develop an area to bring nice housing and decent jobs to an area, I thought that it would be fairly well-received.

[SmileyBoy]

15. I'm for it, as long as the public isn't forced to pay for it.

There's lots of creative plans to pay for them, and the stupid legislature has tabled all of them.

I really think we're on the brink of losing two professional sports teams here, and it will mean a dark future for the Twin Cities if that happens.

[SaveElmer]

16. Yes...Absolutely Yes

Direct public funding is not required...there are all sorts of ways for the state to assist in financing it without money from the general budget. Despite the fact that they are private enterprises, they are also quasi-public institutions too. It would be truly tragic were the Twins or Vikings to leave the state.

I grew up in Minnesota, my family all still live there. I live in DC and have seen how the Orioles and Ravens stadium has helped revitilize the downtown area of Baltimore. These teams bring in far more in tax revenue than was spent to construct them. Despite the knee-jerk reaction to spending public money for a private enterprise, it is a sound investment. The Twins Cities are great sports towns. If you build it they will come...and spend lots of money!!!

[Zookeeper]

27. I wonder...

how much money Minnesotans spend at the few business near the Metrodome. My guess is that many of the suburbanites hop into their SUVs after a game and head home, maybe with a stop at a Chili's in their own neighborhood.

[mzmolly]

19. I think it would help stimulate jobs and we'd get the money back in tax

revenue from the players who will stay in MN with a new stadium.

I am actually for a partial subsidy.

[Nobody]

21. No I won't bend over

let me count the ways....

They're using the threat of moving as blackmail. We should not be intimidated. They're not going to move the teams. The Vikings are jumping on the "build me a stadium" bandwagon. Other communities said no to their teams and no one else was willing to shell out to take them.

The teams can well afford to pay for its own operating costs. Any other for-profit business has to pay its own way or (radical thought coming) GET A FREAKING BANK LOAN and (even more radical thought) PAY IT BACK.

If I as a resident of Minneapolis have to pay for a place of business for a for-profit enterprise, I want a share of the profits and a share of the enterprise. That means whatever percentage we citizens have to fork over, we the people should get that percentage ownership of the team.

The community that hosts the teams ends up paying the costs, and most places are strapped for money for things like the fire department and police. Minneapolis was going to lay off firefighters and police until a huge outcry erupted. If we get stuck with the bill, that's money that won't go to infrastructure that desparately needs it.

The stadiums will include more luxury box seating that is way out of range for the average sports fan and no additional average sports fan seating.

We had a stadium rammed down our throats once already (HHH Metrodome) and we didn't want that one either.

We voted NO three times in referenda about whether we should build a stadium for the Twins using public money.

[Triple H]

23. I like the idea of a new stadium for the Twins/Vikings...

but I hate the idea that we all should pay for it. I think that since the owners have millions of dollars, and they want a new stadium, they should pay for most of it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Exactly

They should do what ordinary business owners do when they want new facilities and can't quite afford them with cash on hand: take out a loan.

[qb]

24. The people said "No effing way!" to public $ during the budget surplus.

There's no way they're going to dump this on us in this economy.
If the Twins and the Vikings leave like crybabies, so what.
Let the focus go to the real sports teams at our colleges and high schools.

[Deja Q]

26. Here's a new City Pages article covering Teflon Tim's Timely Travesty...

http://www.citypages.com/databank/25/1222/article12083.asp

It is fair to say that the notion of passing legislation to build one new ballpark, let alone two or three, would not have any currency during this session without Pawlenty's advocacy. It was the governor who created a committee to solicit stadium proposals from local units of government, who stocked the committee with stadium proponents to ensure the proposals would be treated sympathetically, and who appointed his chief of staff to chair the committee as a signal that the issue was a high priority on his legislative agenda.

To further punctuate his position, the governor then publicly declared that he would not allow the baseball Twins or the football Vikings to leave town on his watch. This forceful shove from the state's most powerful public official is the only reason the stadium issue is part of this year's political landscape.

(snip)

The carnage from last year's draconian budget cuts is still reverberating throughout the state. Hundreds of teachers have been laid off, thousands of citizens have been priced out of health care, and nearly every state agency is showing the strain of coping with a greater demand for services with fewer resources. What's more, unless the economy shows a miraculous improvement, state lawmakers are staring at a deficit in next year's biennial budget of more than a billion dollars, this time without any tobacco fund or bureaucratic sleights-of-hand to help bail them out.

he carnage from last year's draconian budget cuts is still reverberating throughout the state. Hundreds of teachers have been laid off, thousands of citizens have been priced out of health care, and nearly every state agency is showing the strain of coping with a greater demand for services with fewer resources. What's more, unless the economy shows a miraculous improvement, state lawmakers are staring at a deficit in next year's biennial budget of more than a billion dollars, this time without any tobacco fund or bureaucratic sleights-of-hand to help bail them out.

(More, much more, oh much more... Anybody still want taxpayer funds to keep the billionaires in town? Fuck 'em, forgive my language. What is going on is utterly despicable, especially when THEY THEMSELVES say welfare is wrong and all the other rhetoric. ALl they give us is crappy retail jobs that people can't afford to live on anyway. That is not worth the money they want us to give them.)

Let the degenerate bastards leave, good riddance to virulent virii. I have nothing good to say for a group of people who want to leech both their fans and ALL TAXPAYERS for their own selfish gain. Indeed, the things I want to say would be quite controversial, to say the very least...

If we don't get power back to the people, all hell is going to break loose - not that it hasn't started already, but it's corporate control and greed that gave us a $7 trillion debt, health care costs out the window, lots of people out of work (or working in multiple shit jobs, in fields/retail that others can't get because they can't pass those bullshit pervasive entrance tests...)

[chicaloca]

31. yet again, I must express my hatred of Pukelenty

To further punctuate his position, the governor then publicly declared that he would not allow the baseball Twins or the football Vikings to leave town on his watch.

Didn't he also say this right before or during the bus strike? I'm sorry, but when I've just come out of a situation where lack of state funds caused me to have to walk an hour one way to get to work and I lost almost ten pounds in forty days because I couldn't get to the grocery store, I could give a crap about the stadiums. I'd rather be able to eat than go to some posh, luxurious stadium. Anyhow, the Twin Cities are known much more for their arts than sports teams, and just about everybody I encounter downtown is more of an arts lover than a sports lover. And as somebody already mentioned, there aren't any businesses near the Metrodome, so it's not like downtown businesses are profiting, anyhow.

I also happen to have grown up near Milwaukee, and most people there now agree that the new stadium (which two construction workers died building) was a big mistake. It hasn't brought in any new money for the city, and it never fills up.

[Zookeeper]

28. A subversive question:

How do professional sports teams truly represent a community?

As I child, I enjoyed attending Tiger's games. A few years later, it occurred to me that the player's only connection to Detroit was being paid to play "for" us. As the years go by, and the player's salaries skyrocket, it's more obviously a completely mercenary endeavor.

So, then it turns into a competition based on which cities have the richest owners, willing to part with the most money to buy the best players.

It strikes me as pretty counterfeit.

[Nobody]

30. Good point

I suppose the ancient Romans toyed with the idea of getting the citizenry to fork out for buying gladiators for the rich owners.

[lakeguy]

32. For new stadiums if

the owners pay for them, not the public.

[SmileyBoy]

33. The public will not be forced to pay anything in taxes.

The teams will repay back a third of the price in bonds w/ interest.

[no name no slogan]

34. Then why is this being brought up in ANY part of the government?

WHY is the government being asked to set up "the deal" if there's supposedly no public funds involved?

If that is the case, why can't Pohlad go to one of his banks and get the loan himself, with the Twins as collateral?

Same goes for McCombs: a guy that loaded has to have good credit around town. Why doesn't he do the same thing if he "needs" a stadium so bad?

Oh wait, that's right, why should these billionaires be forced to risk their assets to build something that will mostly be used by them, or rented out by them, for their own benefit.

Maybe it's because they expect the government to absorb the loss any of these teams or facilities may incurr if, for some reason, the entertainment economy "heads south".

It's just another case of socialism for the wealthy, and free markets for the rest of us. If I build a house and can't make enough $$ to make the payments, the government does NOT come in a bail me out. I lose the house, and have to move elsewhere.

It's time to get the rich off welfare. They've had too easy a ride around here since 1990, and their money-grubbing ways have to STOP. We simply cannot afford it anymore. They are a drain on the system and abuse it for their own nefarious ends. Multimillionaires, it's time we cut you off, and sent you out on your own.

Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out, now.