A republican coworkers logic....

[Francesca]

A coworker of mine stated yesterday that She "Loves Cheney" and thought he was wonderful in the debate.. I reminded her about his outright lie regarding "I never said their was a connection between Hussein and Al Queda" which triggered a brief discussion on the war in Iraq.. Her final words on the subject after I decimated her arguments for supporting the war in Iraq (this person has not been paying attention to the news lately.) was "Look what difference does it make why we went to war, we are already there so people need to get over it.... I don't think the American people need or want to be given all these details anyway....".

Wow, should I write her off as a lost cause?? Note she happens to be my sister in law... At this point she is not interested in my facts which she counters with "All politicians lie anyway". If she was not planning to vote I would leave it alone but I can't understand this complete lack of interest in getting the facts. This is typical of not just my in laws but both of my mother and fathers family... I live in NH and have heard mixed reports on where our state is leaning so I am getting a little aggressive with them and it's only succeeding in generating hostility... I just don't seem to have the ability to reach people ... I am very depressed over this...... Maybe I need to dumb my arguments down...Maybe I need to lie myself .. One problem I have is I can come off as arrogant and am admittedly volatile.. I can't seem to reign myself in...

[DebJ]

1. what about issues other than the war? she may be 'unreachable'

on the war issue, but there is so much else you may have room to make her think twice about other things.

[Francesca]

4. the heart of the problem is that she

has made up her mind that she is voting republican, she is not particularly concerned with the environment, she is well off and does not have any friends or acquaintances that are not in the same economic position so she does not relate to others who are struggling, she is irrationally afraid of another terrorist attack, she believes strongly in the myth of rampant welfare abuse, thinks the prospect of socialized medicine equals communism equals evil, she has never traveled outside the US without remaining in the confines of some sort of American resort, she lives in a very orderly protected world where crimes, drug problems, unemployment and strife in general don't exist, etc...

The most important thing to her is her children and that is where I attempt to draw her in... Fear for them and the belief they will be harmed by terrorists is a major driving force for her emotionally.

[liberal_in_GA]

2. Does she have kids?

If so (or even if not), ask her if she would be interested in the "details" were her own child serving in Chimpy's war?

[crispini]

3. You MUST read "Don't Think of an Elephant"

by George Lakoff. Short, sweet, and helps you debate with conservatives.

First, you need to calm down when discussing things with her.

Second, you need to learn mental jujitsu. Don't respond to or refute her arguments. Reframe them. Redirect the conversation with examples and stories that break the "back and forth" debate and make her see things a new way.

"Why does it make any difference why we went to war?"
Let's say a burglar breaks in your home and you shoot him. Is that OK? Yes, in some states you wouldn't even take a trip to the police station. Now let's say you run out of your house and just shoot someone on the street. Is that ok? Of course not.

See. Circumstances and motivations matter.

oh, and read the Lakoff book, it was writtten for you. SERIOUSLY. Good excerpts at publisher's website:
http://www.chelseagreen.com/2004/items/elephant

[Francesca]

5. I am getting the book on Amazon

right now... I tend to read things that are inflammatory like myself... I am completely striking out however... I often feel like my attitude and posturing immediately puts others in a position where they feel like they are in a contest with me and the issue is not what we are debating but whether the person I am arguing with can hold his/her ground. I think thats why I am striking out.. I get too pushy perhaps.

[meegbear]

6. Need to get over it ... don't care for details ...

unless it's Clinton's sex life, right?

[Francesca]

7. a discussion on sex

is easier for these people to understand than foreign policy so thats part of the problem......... They already have black and white rules to go by in the bible that tell them what position to take.. Unfortunately the bible does not spell out what position to take on things like preemptive war and healthcare... Well it does in my opinion but its not clear enough for some people to understand so they need their party to spell it out for them

[meegbear]

9. Well good luck ...

at least you have logic on your side.

[KharmaTrain]

8. Guilt Trip Time...

I'm very fortunate...there's not a member of my immediate family (8 of us) who will vote for any Repugnican...and we're being joined this year by most of my wife's sister's family...lifelong Conservative Repugnicans who voted for Bunnypants in 2000 and now are as against this fraud as the rest of us are. It's been a bonding experience.

What turned things? F911!! I'd take your sister-in-law out for a nice lunch or dinner...throw in a few drinks (might open her up from the effects of Limabughitis) and then have her watch the movie and see how she reacts.

If that doesn't work...lay the guilt on...ask her to justify the war based on the facts. If she's scared about terrorists, then point out to her why she's being lied to and how her fear keeps her from seeing all the billions of HER tax dollars being thrown away. If you need go further...yes, then ask her if she'd approve of someone elses child going off to fight a war to keep her gas tank filled. Don't be afraid to lay the guilt on, just like she's been getting it from the other side. At best, she sees the light. At worst, she feels slimy about all involved and stays home on Nov. 2. Either way it's better than a vote for Bunnypants.

Good luck! We turned a lot of heads, minds and votes here...here's hoping you're able to do the same.

Cheers!

[Francesca]

10. Oh I am so jealous

of your family's experience.... Sounds wonderful... I tried to get her to see F911 actually and she refused... I succeeded in bringing only one republican with me (he already was questioning "Bunnypants" however). I will try the guilt thing as well.. I need to get over myself and calm down... I am sure the problem is Me and not my arguments.....

[KharmaTrain]

13. Don't Be Jealous, Be Sincere

I'm lucky that I'm from an old-line Democrat family (3rd generation and proud of it)...and this year my wife and I are joined by our daughter who will be voting in her first election (and can't wait)...my son turns 17 next week...and is pissed as he'd love to vote, instead he helps in volunteering in local campaigns. Politics is very important here...especially since were deep in Repugnican suburbia, and have seen a growing Democratic presence in this area grow over the past decade...it's been exciting to see it start to bear some fruit.

I give a lot of credit to my brother-in-law...who I brought out of the "darkside" in 2000...when he started out a McCain supporter and was so turned off by the way Bunnypants stole that nomination, he took a serious look at Democrats for the first time and liked and felt comfortable with what he saw. Just gave him the facts and he realized how he'd been lied to all his life. Today he drives around with a "Bush Lies" bumper sticker on his car and is a proud member of DU! :evilgrin:

He started in on his family right after the Invasion began and the both of us predicted things that we knew at the time were true: No WMD, Saddam not connected to 9/11, tax breaks were really tax hikes and so on...and each time documented what was happening. From being dismissive at first, we started getting raised eyebrows...especially when the war got messier and Abu Grahb broke. Once we pulled away the curtain and showed this regime for what it was, you saw these people get downright angry.

The real topper was when my brother-in-law did an "intervention". He pulled his mother...65 years and never voted Democrat...and said straight out that the reason he feels so passionate about what's going on is based on the principles SHE raised him with. To question, to learn and to do the right and morale thing...that's what got to her.

Just show your passion...sooner or later she'll have to see how much this means to you and either ignore you on this topic or may want to engage you to find out why you feel as strongly as you do. Here's hoping you're able to show her a light. Once you break that Hate Radio/Media spin and lies, not only do you make a lot of points, you'll see some of these people get downright angry at being duped so badly. It's like an ex-smoker...they can become zealots against their former handlers.

Cheers!

[IdaBriggs]

11. Point out we got attacked BECAUSE of Bush.

He dismantled the existing anti-terrorism systems and didn't put anything else in place until Sep 12 when he put the "old systems" back which is why we haven't been hit since. I got this information (thanks to the folks in the 9/11 forum) from the CRS Report for Congress on "Terrorism and the Military's Role in Domestic Crisis Management" dated April 19, 2001 (http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL30938.pdf) which states in part on page 6:

“President George W. Bush recently signed National Security Presidential Directive-1 (NSPD-1) establishing the organization of the National Security Council under his Administration. Among other things, the document abolishes the previous system of interagency working groups and replaces them with policy coordination committees (PCC).”

Blah, blah, blah -- PCCs didn't meet, vacation boy, cutting the anti-terrorism budget on 9/10, and she shouldn't get on a plane because three years after 9/11 95% of the containers still aren't being inspected so a terrorist can go to the local hardware store, build a bomb and ship it via Fed-Ex to blow our planes out of the sky.

All politicians lie, but WE HAVE CONSEQUENCES which is why when we CATCH THEM, WE FIRE THEM. When people prove they are untrustworthy, sane people don't trust them. If they aren't good enough liars NOT TO GET CAUGHT, they aren't good enough to lead us. Also promise her that if Kerry screws up you will join her in booting his ass out in four years, too. (I'm expecting competence from him, so I don't think its going to be an issue, but it serves to remind people WE THE PEOPLE are in charge.)

[Francesca]

15. excellent points thank you

you actually brought up some issues that would be appropriate for my father (another die hard but also an intelligent guy who I think I may have on the fence)..

[trapper914]

12. Oh, I wish I had the quote handy

What she said echoes a Hitler quote I remember reading...it read something about using propaganda to get the people behind the war...once the country is at war, no one will care about what the reasons were. Sounds like your sis-in-law would have been a good little nazi.

[Francesca]

14. you have no idea how right you are...

[RoyalWickedness]

16. Actually, it was Herman Goering:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

[requiem99]

17. "Ignorance and stupidity are not excuses."

[lapislzi]

18. Funny, the same woman works in my office

She came to work yesterday with the same kool-aid sluck: "oooh, I loooove Cheney!"

Ick.

Although my co-worker is concerned with the environment (I was able to make a few points about JK's environmental record) and basically thinks bush sucks as a president, the argument boils down to, "well, I just don't trust Kerry, and I don't like Edwards." How do you counter that? She's actually pretty well-informed, but "is going to vote gut."

I suspect there's more going on there, but she is tedious.

Good luck with your s-i-l.

[ClassWarrior]

19. Unless she shows some sign of softening...

...and by your description of your conversation, she doesn't - write her off and move to more fertile fields.

23.