The debates were a huge mistake

[ProfessorPlum]

Bush and Cheney probably had it wrapped up. They could have cruised to victory with the Diebold machines in Ohio and a little monkeying around in Florida with Brother Jeb's help.

They'd avoided accountability for nearly all of their actions until now. Bankrupt the country? Comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted? War profiteering? Ignoring clear warnings of an imminent terrorist attack? Lie after lie after blatent lie about international Islam and our real place in the world? Piss off all of our allies?

Yaaaaaawwwwn says our press corps. There will be no accountabliity demanded by us.

Press conferences down to an embarrassing trickle. Speeches only given to sycophantic croweds.

There was no reason Bush and Cheney couldn't have continued to live in their fantasy worlds for at least another four years. Nothing could have, should have touched them.

BUT . . . they agreed to four debates before the election. I wonder why? Clinton reduced the number of debates with Dole, just because he could. These guys agreed to all four (of course they made sure they got their way regarding format, etc.).

And now, these four 90 minute episodes of them having to stand up against articulate opponents who live in the real world and are finally calling them on their bullshit in front of the whole nation . . . may finally be the end of them.

It would be amazing if this very small amount of public truth telling were really effective in bringing about the end for this regime. You can tell that Cheney and Bush are already starting to feel it themselves - look how angry they were during their debates. It is the first time, including at the heavily scripted press conferences that anyone has actually stood up to their distorted worldview in a long, long time.

They should have just refused to debate. What would have been the bad consequences for them, really? The press wouldn't have said boo, beyond a few grumblings.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. How many debates did Clinton/Dole have?

[pmbryant]

2. 2, I believe (n/t)

[ProfessorPlum]

3. I believe they were scheduled for three

and Clinton basically said, Naah, I don't want to waste my time. So they had two.

[JI7]

7. Clinton made a deal with Dole

dole didn't want perot in the debates. so clinton said he would agree to keeping perot out if they had just 2 debates and both in the town hall style which is what clinton is best at.

really stupid on dole's part as perot wasn't what was holding him back but rather clinton's talent in relating to people which is what the town hall debates helped show.

although i'm sure clinton would have won no matter what debate style and whether or not perot was included.

[Drifter]

4. Why do you think ...

there were so many rules. They were trying to stifle impact of the debates (which of course would show that AWOL is incompetent).

In my opinion, there should be 2 debates every week for 6 weeks before the election. If a candidate decides not to show up, then so be it. His opponent will have the floor to himself for 90 minutes.

Cheers
Drifter

[apnu]

8. that's a great idea!

:toast:

[CarolynEC]

13. THAT is a fantastic idea!!

"...there should be 2 debates every week for 6 weeks before the election. If a candidate decides not to show up, then so be it. His opponent will have the floor to himself for 90 minutes.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:yourock:

[atommom]

5. They've stifled dissent so much in the last 4 years that I don't think

they truly realized what would happen if others dared to put them on the spot. This has been a long time coming.

[indie_voter]

17. I totally agree

They have been so sheltered and coddled by the media and their handlers. I think they are in shock.

I think the media is in shock.

Cheney's idiotic lie about not meeting Edwards is what wins it for Edwards. If the man lies about such a stupid little thing like this, what else will he lie about? Even media whore extraordinarie, Tim Russert, said they met on his program.

Such a foolish lie now makes the media have to expose the other stuff only because they are made to look silly.

Witness Tweety and his cohorts. They made fools out of themselves by instantly handing the victory to Cheney. Hours later all the lies begin to unravel and they realize they have been had, which then pisses them off.

I thought Edwards did much much better than I felt he was going to do. I was stunned Cheney lied as much as he did considering all the contradictory evidence.

It is a measure of how out of touch this admin is, that he thought he could get away with it.

[bif]

6. I can't wait for the last two

I think Bushie Boy is going to do a total meltdown.

[ProfessorPlum]

10. They'll have him all doped up on something

So that he won't be showing much emotion one way or the other. A stifled, defeated performance is what I predict. But who knows? A meltdown would be fun to watch!

[dumpster_baby]

9. yep,their agreeing to debate will be textbook example of bad campaigning

They committed a big mistake by agreeing to debate. And that will go down in the books as one of the biggest mistakes in any presidential campaign.

[ProfessorPlum]

15. It's totally expected, of course

I don't really think they could have just refused to debate - but I'm glad there are at least these last reality checks - very feeble, scripted and sterile as they are - before the election.

the next evil regime that seizes power in the US won't make the same mistake.

[realFedUp]

11. If our "leaders" can't even debate

without all their comfort levels met,
they are no leaders.

You'd think they thought they were
going to be on the Fear Factor...

[wabeewoman]

12. It's their arrogance...

I really believe they are so arrogant they believe they can continue to snow the American people-why would they think otherwise when they basically bully anyone who speaks out into submission?

[coalition_unwilling]

18. I actually think they've been in a closed circuit echo chamber so long

they actually now believe the truth of their own B.S.

[Philostopher]

14. Before the debates, they didn't need Diebold.

To win Ohio, I mean. There aren't any Diebold machines being used in Ohio anyway -- too much pressure on Blackwell, he conceded that one. Fewer than ten counties are using EV machines at all, at this point -- seven or nine, I think -- and none of them are manufactured by Diebold ... but before last Thursday, Bush* was still leading in Ohio beyond the margin for error. He had just enough of a lead they wouldn't have had to cheat to take Ohio.

And I think they got played, you're absolutely right.

Pressuring them into debates has put them at a disadvantage. As long as they could continue to throw up their facade of lies and subvert conventional wisdom with fear, they had Ohio sewn up. Now, again, it's anybody's ball game here. I was pretty depressed about it all, before last Thursday -- it was looking pretty grim, here. I feel better about it, now that it's in play again -- and they did it to themselves.

IT'S THE HUBRIS, STUPID! To borrow the old semantic device from the Clinton campaign in the 90s.

[WillyT]

16. Great Analysis !!!

The only thing they may have had to worry about by not debating, would have been accusations of ChickenHawks to ChickenTalks! But I believe they could have withstood all that.

I think they violated a much deeper tenet:

NEVER BUY INTO YOUR OWN PUBLIC RELATIONS TALKING POINTS

So they went into the debates confident that everybody agreed with them, and were confounded by being confronted.

:shrug:

OMG... I think I'm typing in prose now. Still got a tad of last night's toasting coursing through the vessels and all that.

:hangover: