"A Pyrrhic victory: A victory gained at too great a cost"

[dumpster_baby]

you know things are pretty bad when the Democratic loyalists are cheering on a democratic VP candidate who sounded far more like a rightwinger than a leftwinger.

Yeah, we may win all these debates, but at what cost? You know, the things our candidates say do not just melt away into the air. They stay in people's minds. By having the Democratic ticket go up there in front of all of America and reinforce almost every bit of neoliberal propaganda that the rightwing propaganda machine (think tanks, foundations, rightwing talk radio, etc) has been cranking out for 30 years about how low taxes are better than high taxes, and how we need to build up our military ever bigger and stronger, well, we may have won the battles of the Prez and VP debates, but we lost the goddamn war.

Congratulations, John Kerry and John Edwards, you won the debates. But you stuck a knife between the ribs of the progressive ethos by doing it the way you did. Last night, Edwards was beautiful. A debating machine, incarnate. And also the most articulate spokesman for the neoliberal propaganda machine that I have ever seen.

[Ruffhowse]

1. Well, you can always vote for Nader.

[dumpster_baby]

5. He is not on the ballot in Texas

If I were in a swing state, I would vote Kerry because he is somewhat better than Bush. But then again, I am an atheist. If I were a christian, I would probably vote Bush. I guess I am the only one who remembers what Thomas Frank was talking about when he was making his book promotional tour this summer. How quickly they forget....

But that really is tangential to the point I am making.

[gratuitous]

18. How it's done

Get yourself a pencil, or a pen, or a red crayon if that's what they let you have, and practice scrawling "Ralf Nadir" between now and election day. Then you can have your cake and eat it, too. I'll bring some cheese, as you already have a fine whine.

As for people "remembering" anything, 75% of the people don't remember what they had for lunch yesterday. A majority still thinks that Saddam was behind the September 11 attacks, and virtually all of the invasion's supporters can't tell you what the original rationale for it was.

[poppabear36]

24. Thank you!

For saving me from having to write that all out.

[arwalden]

46. Funny...

you old stinker, you! :hi:

[Bandit]

31. Let's wait and see how they govern.

If over the next four years they govern in the manner they now proclaim then I will not vote to re-elect them. I also feel we are losing ground on the decent aspects of American life and governance. I do not like war and such rhetoric that re-enforces war. Right now though it is imperative to win back the Presidency and hopefully congress as well. We have to get the monsters/mobsters out of our government. The longest journey starts with the first step.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. I am a Christian and I am voting Kerry

So are millions of others, so I am not sure what your remark about voting for bush is all about.

[JI7]

64. it just repeats right wing talking points also

as if Bush is the only true christian out there and real christians vote bush. and the non believers are the only ones opposed to bush. when in reality the democratic party is accepting of all beliefs.

[Sophree]

54. That's interesting.

I'm a Christian and there's no way I'd EVER vote B*sh/Cheney. B*sh is a blasphemous false prophet with a messianic complex making war for avaricious ends.

[Virginian]

58. Amen

You tell 'em. I'm right here to agree with all of that.

You do know that the ultra religious, Born Again Bush does not even attend church? He has no time for it. Jimmy Carter had time, he even taught Sunday School when he was in the White House.

[Sophree]

59. Yes, I do know that.

Perhaps if he attended church once in a while he would learn to be a little more humble and his actions would more closely reflect his professed faith.

[Teaser]

60. Guess you're stuck then...

oh well.

[JI7]

66. many Christians are voting for Kerry, why do you say you would vote Bush

if you were Christian when there are many Christians who are voting for Kerry ?

[Jo March]

2. They say what they have to say to get elected

I wasn't too happy about the gay marriage comment, either. Do I think that we've lost the war? No. I think that K/E have to be careful at this point. I understood it. Didn't like it but I understood it.

[dumpster_baby]

6. yeah, that is EXACTLY what I am saying, and there is a word for that

....for that kind of victory.

[Cheswick2.0]

45. yes, it is so much better to enable the right to win again

sorry if the victory isn't pure enough for you, but you can thank those of us who are compromising later when you figure out we saved your ass too.

[SoDesuKa]

3. You Don't Really Believe

Surely you don't believe that Kerry intends to govern as a neoliberal? We're electing a Democrat. Kerry will govern as a Democrat.

[dumpster_baby]

7. So you are saying that Kerry/Edwards are lying?

Great logic, there....

[Renew Deal]

They're not lying.

They just aren't "neo-liberals" whatever that's supposed to mean anyway. You tell us, what should they say about the military and gay marriage? We should shrink it and federally govern (gay) marriage? I don't agree to that and I'm not a "neo-liberal."

[dumpster_baby]

21. hey, you might wanna FIND OUT what 'neoliberal' means

Because until you find out, you do not really understand what America is.

[Renew Deal]

35. Actually you might want to find out.

It has nothing to do with the size of the military or gay marriage. It's a term that has been around for a while, but it's thrown around by the far left as a reason for disliking democrats and their candidtes. Now it's your turn. Can you answer these questions?

What should they say about the military and gay marriage?
Should they say that they will shrink it and federally govern (gay) marriage?

[ozymandius]

30. It would seem that K/E are forced to address wedge issues.

Lying? No. But when the Republican leadership forces wedge issues into a campaign a-la Nixon's "Southern Strategy", every candidate must address these every issue on the table.

Does this mean that Kerry will take action on these issues once in office? Absolutely not. Same-sex marriage, for example, will quickly diminish as an election issue on the 3 November. The War on Terror, a war that every intelligent mind knows cannot be won through out-killing your adversary, will certainly take a different tack. Kerry has stated so.

Kerry and Edwards are smart to exercise metaphor and employ a similiar vocabulary as their opponents. Election year rhetoric requires it to some extent.

[Zensea]

10. Democrats can be neoliberals easily

In fact the term usually is used in reference to Democrats.
Kennedy and Johnson were neoliberals for example.
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=neoliberal
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=neoliberalism

[Renew Deal]

43. What does that have to do with the size of the military and gay marriage?

And who isn't for economic growth?

[deutsey]

4. I'm still voting for Kerry/Edwards because I think Bush/Cheney

are by far the greater threat to progressivism.

Even so, I have to say that I am no longer a member of the Democratic Party. After this election I will be working to build a viable third party alternative to the existing two-party system.

[fsbooks]

9. stay democrat, organize locally

We need to change the base. The more people like Zell Miller we lose and the more elections we win, the better we will be.

[milkyway]

8. There is a lot of truth to what you say. Unfortunately, this is where we

are as a nation right now. You simply cannot become President of the United States today without being religious and pro-military. Dennis Kucinich ran as a true progressive and stayed in the single digits. He wasn't a serious contender even within the Dem party. What Kerry will give us is intelligent, responsible, adult centrist leadership. And that will be far better than what the incompetent crooks have given us these last four years.

[Renew Deal]

11. I think we need to change/expand the military. And gay marriage is a state

issue. We can't keep the military the way it is. It either has to change or they have to draft. I prefer changing to the current approach of extending tours and calling back 67 year olds. Also, gay marriage is a states rights issue. The states govern marriage. I have no problem with Massachusetts, Vermont, California or NY. Let there be referendums or let the legislatures handle it. Keep it out of the constitution.

I don't think we lost the war. Kerry is the most liberal contender in a long time and that's a great thing. He will make a fine president.

[Rambis]

12. I here what you are saying but....

We need to get bushco out at any cost! You certainly can't fix anything or move in any positive direction with them in. Your views are not heard when they are planning the next invasion in Iran or Syria. Domestically they are a joke. Social Security, medicare, medacaide,public education and the environment are either going away or in serious danger. Please take this into account when voting for anyone. It is going to be easier to drag us out of the gutter that bush put us in with John Kerry as president. Another four years of bush and this country may be not be fixable on any level. Rant over

[DarkPhenyx]

16. When you lose all that you are in the winning...

...then the enemy has truly beat you. Becoming the monster in the course of slaying it ensures only one thing...taht the next "hero" has a monster to say in his turn.

[sendero]

13. On exactly which issues was Edwards a "neoliberal"?

Because I'm really curious as to what has got you so bent.

[trogdor]

14. A national candidate MUST run toward the center.

Not the emphasis on MUST. It is not an option. The center is where, as Bill Clinton would remind you all, most of the voters are. You cannot just appeal to lefties in San Francisco or New England, or just to right-wing "Christians" in the Deep South, and expect to win a national election in which over 100 million people will participate. Bush/Cheney ran a largely centrist campaign in 2000, and it worked (sort of). They don't have that luxury this time, since they have their record to defend, which is anything but centrist. This is why they're getting their asses kicked so bad in the debates this year as opposed to four years ago.

In the end, voters don't want to hear about how stupid an idea Iraq was. They are already aware of that. They want to know what you the candidate plan to do about it, and the correct answer is not "cut and run."

[dumpster_baby]

20. The title of your post come RIGHT OUT of the neoliberal propaganda machine

You cannot move America to the left talking like Kerry and Edwards did in the debates. You can only move America to the right by doing so.

Like I said, they won the debates, but we Americans LOSE!

[arwalden]

23. That Demonstrates A Naive Understanding Of How Elections Are Won

Elections are won from the center. Surely you know that... you're just letting your emotions control your intellect right now.

Surely you also know that Bush and Cheney are arch conservatives, yet they try to paint themselves as being somewhere just right of center... and the fringe folks on their side are just as "upset" with Cheney for being "too nice" or "too liberal".

A reality-check is in order here... I think you need to reexamine your expectations.

-- Allen

[dumpster_baby]

28. And you do not understand the memes BEHIND the elections

The election talking points are framed around a set of ideas. THAT set of ideas is what drives politics. When you do as Edwards did last night, and ACCEPT set of ideas, the set of ideas that drive the election rhetoric, you have essentially lost, EVEN IF YOU WIN THE ELECTION.

In essence, Edwards and Kerry are saying to America that they are better Republicans than Bush and Cheney. Well, who gives a fuck if they win on THAT rhetoric!

[arwalden]

33. Time For A Reality Check...

Our country's political moods are like a pendulum. They swing one way... then they swing the other way. Right now we're a divided country. We were divided in 2000 and we're just as divided now in 2004.

This just goes to show that there's just no pleasing some folks. Your anger is misplaced and your fears are unjustified. Otherwise, Howard Dean or Dennis Kucinich would be our candidate. But they aren't. If they can't win within our OWN party, then there's no way they could win on a national level.

I can't make you believe me, I can only point out the truth. If you're mature enough to accept facts, then you'll see that you aren't being fair to our candidates.

-- Allen

[Zensea]

49. Thomas Frank

pegs what you are talking about , but as you may have noticed you're not going to get much sympathy for such a position here right now.
Despite its merit.

[dumpster_baby]

51. Oh, I know that. But I always fight anyway

two kinds of people: conformists and nonconformists

[arwalden]

56. Other Types Of People...

Winners and losers.
Sophisticated and naive.
Realistic and idealistic.
Mature and juvenile.
Rational and emotional.
Wise and foolish.

I suppose if you want to compartmentalize and label people, then there are many categories of polar opposites that can be used. It's very easy to disregard the center in our search for perfection. But I'm sure you know that the whole world isn't black and white when it comes to politics. There's the gray area in the center too.

The time for arguing the points that you're trying make today has come and gone. It's time to move on and concentrate on winning THIS election and removing the criminal Bush from office.

The petty negativity, labeling, and name-calling isn't helping. Stop looking backward. Stop fighting old battles that have been lost (or wisely put on hold for a more appropriate time).

Show a little bit of political maturity and move on... get on board and take a step in the correct direction.

-- Allen

[Zensea]

63. In the spirit of Cixous

Winners, sophisticated, realistic, mature, rational, wise

Losers, naive, idealistic, juvenile, emotional, foolish.

"The time for arguing the points that you're trying make today has come and gone"

Gee it must be nice to be at the end of history. These issues don't magically go away at the election. You can say the time has come and gone all you want and that won't make it happen. Now which is really the foolish viewpoint?

Since when is being an idealist synonymous with being a loser?

Get on board, fall in line, stop questioning authority. Act like a Republican.

standard disclaimer -- I'm voting for Kerry, despite my socialist perspective. The old toe the line argument doesn't hold much weight with me though. I'll vote for Kerry despite that sort of lockstep mentality of some of his supporters.

I also think some people (maybe you, I can't say for sure) are going to be in for a real surprise after this election even if Kerry wins.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. How Are You Going To Move The Country Left If You Lose Elections?

nt

[arwalden]

39. Excellent Point, DSB... Some Folks Are Too Angry To Get It

or to think clearly about how elections are actually won.

They are willing to sacrifice everything for their sacred principles. In their naive search for Utopia in candidates, policy and platform... they abandon rational thinking and reality.

The juvenile 'all-or-nothing' mentality being bandied about is a sure-fire recipe for failure. We must take the small victories where we can get them and build on our successes.

-- Allen

[Renew Deal]

38. I just don't agree.

I think that they "won" the debates so far, but americans haven't lost. There is a clear contrast between their view and Bush's. Gay marriage and the size of the military have nothing to do with this "neo-liberal" propoganda machine. BTW, do you have any direct links to the neo-liberal propoganda machine? I would love to know what they're spreading.

[maine_raptor]

15. Another saying you might consider

"The Perfect is the Enemy of the Good"

I agree with the poster above who said we will have "adult" leadership. If we, The People, have learned anything over the past four years, it is that the Bush Administration says one thing and does another. Too bad we didn't know that back then, because one of the first things they said upon taking office was: "Now the adults are back in charge."

[arwalden]

17. Gee... What A Dilemma You Have. Woe Are We

Looks like your only option is to just stay home and not vote.

>> But you stuck a knife between the ribs of the progressive ethos by doing it the way you did. <<

Wow! I certainly wouldn't vote for a candidate who stuck a knife between my progressive ribs.

Do the right thing! Just stay home and nurse your wounded progressive principles back to health.

-- Allen

[johnnyrocket]

19. Whatever, it's Darth Vader or folks who want to make a difference...

this election cycle, your choice.

[mac56]

22. Tell you what: Stay home and don't vote.

That'll show those bastards! They'll be smarting then, you betcha!

Instead: on election day, buy a ticket to a movie and DON'T GO IN. Teach 'em all a lesson.

:eyes:

[Cats Against Frist]

25. this is called "the race to the middle"

And John Kerry and John Edwards are really centrists, anyway, -- centrist, however, meaning that even though they are authoritarian, and they tow the status quo that all presidents usually do (except for Busholini), they also recognize the importance of environmental protection, they're pro-choice, they're for equal rights, they're NOT crazy fundies waiting for the rapture -- and, more importantly, even though they're talking tough war rhetoric -- and I do believe they will continue the war on the REAL terrorists -- they seem more committed to truth, open government, fiscal responsibility, and approaching world conflict with a realistic, intelligent, consensus-building approach that takes into account the fact that the U.S. and Europe ARE partially responsible for setting up the climate of global terrorism.

That's a world of difference from Cheney and Bush, who have to pander to a constituency so extreme, mean, delusional and ignorant that the truth will never see the light of day. At least truth's pinkie toe gets exposed with Kerry/Edwards.

[dumpster_baby]

29. Oh, you guys just love to pretend America is the only country in the world

WHAT ABOUT EUROPE? What about Canada? Australia?

[T Town Jake]

41. We don't think America is "the only country in the world"...

...but the vast majority of us can only vote in "one country in the world," the United States. So, yes, right now our attention is turned "inwards," so to speak, at this critical time in the middle of the most important national election in our lifetimes.
Let's win first, then we can squabble about ideological specifics. It's that simple. At least that's my view.

[mac56]

47. good response, TTJ

Let's put out the fire in the kitchen before we change the draperies.

[Cats Against Frist]

57. I apologize, but I'm not sure why this is a response to my post

I don't think America is the only country in the world. I don't think my post stated anything of the kind. If you could clear it up, a little, I could argue -- if there's a point to argue.

Thanks.

[Radio-Active]

26. let's get the criminals out of office first!

we can protest Kerry and Edwards after election day. We can also work to change the democratic process, whereby voters RANK the candidates - and third party candidates have a much better chance. Of course, that will never happen with the current cabal in office.

[Hamlette]

32. low taxes ARE better than high taxes

maybe I missed the point here but exactly how are high taxes better than low taxes?

And a strong military is a good deterrent.

If winning the battle means being in favor of high taxes and a weak military, we should have lost. It's folly.

[mac56]

34. self edit

self edit

[Onlooker]

36. You're living in dreamland

As a gay man, I bet my views reflect those of a lot of people who face discrimination. The views of Bush genuinely affect me. They affect not only my taxes and hospitalization rights, they affect the degree to which I feel safe in conservative parts of the country. So, my first point is that you're living in dreamland if you believe relative to Bush, Kerry is a right-winger. Kerry is well to the left of a center that supports state constitutional amendments to outlaw gay marriage, isn't bothered by the threat a Supreme Court that will outlaw a woman's right to choose, and doesn't think the fact that in some places, like Baltimore, more than 50% of black men are in prison. The country is far more right-wing than you realize.

My second point is that starting in about 1982, the left just laid down and died. It became discredited among liberals like me when I realized how awful it was that large parts of the far left cited homosexuality as an example of American decadence. But, it also caved in to the onslaught of Reaganomics and the anti-tax craze. It caved in so fully that for years the world "liberal" was an insult. Now, only about a year to organize against an entrenched and fairly radical right-wing. We've done a tremendous amount in that time, so not only have we won the battle (in terms of debates), we're winning the war. A Kerry victory would be a great opportunity for us to exercise our clout.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. You Probably Would Have Thought RFK Was A Neoliberal...

[w4rma]

40. Unrealistic expectations. Out of touch with reality. (nt)

[Cheswick2.0]

42. you know what? Get the fuck over it

we are cheering getting rid of bush. If you can't understand that why bother posting here?
You lecture is a bore. If you want to make a change then join DFA, Progresive majority, 21st century democrats, Take Back America or some other organization that will work to move the country left. Or you can continue to support people like Nader who will only give us more conservative governments.

[Polemonium]

48. Kerry and Edwards did not present radically different positions

during the debates than they took when running for office. The fact is that these two (among the less progressive candidates) won a primary despite much more progressive candidates being in the race. To say that Kerry and Edwards put a knife somewhere is ridiculous. Compromise is democracy (I'd hate to see your lament if Lieberman had won).

I fully agree that the progressive voice should have greater sway, and likely has greater potential membership than we've seen to date. But progressives have to get organized. Further, it appears that matching funds are not the only way to build an organization. The Dean campaign has showed us that people can be brought together when they believe they are a part of the solution.

Most progressives I know (myself included) are not political activists, or grand organizers. The knife is our own, not to be scapegoated into someones hands who are just playing the part we all knew they would play. We are the ones who let it get this far (perhaps not you - you may be the super activist), but most of us took it for granted that common sense would prevail. We have been sitting on our hands for too long, and I for one do not see that continuing after this election. Millions are engaged now, and with a little organization we'd be too busy making things better to quibble over the battles we are not winning.

I guess I'd buy your idea that the debates caused a huge cost to progressive ideas, if organizations of progressives were even engaged in the war of ideas. Most progressives are arm chair progressives, and unless we get out there and get government back in the hands of the people (not suggesting Kerry / Edwards will do this), but until we do this there is no cost to anything more than some shared ideas. We have to be in the war before we can loose it, and while many are engaged, not enough are to really say that this will hurt our war. If anything it might be harder to start the war now, but until it is started there is not much of a cost.

Further, I'd guess that more people are getting involved for the long haul. This includes more progressives, and once the step of getting shrub out is taken I think that energy will go to other places. The key will be to have established a place where people can start the war together.

Finally, the last four years demonstrate that we can't take four more of the same. So it is clear, to me anyway, that Kerry / Edwards are a huge step in the right direction.

[paulk]

50. the only knife stuck in between the progressive ribs

is the one put there four years ago by Nader voters. Which they continue to twist every now and then, as this thread illustrates.

You like military metaphors? Try "The Charge of the Light Brigade". That's what the fringe left prefers. The glorious thrill of the doomed cause.

This election is, at best, a rear guard action. If we lose this battle, then the war will be over, and we will have lost. I will accept any victory this November, even your Pyrrhic one, so that we can continue the fight.

[MsTryska]

52. Wait....what are we talking about?

Am i just some crazy centrist?

what is wrong with what they've been saying?

[GalleryGod]

53. As a female-Aren't You Convinced by Now K-E would protect Roe?

Because if you are not..and you didn't read that 30 States are sitting drooling, and waiting to REcriminalize a Woman's Choice/Abortion...then as I say to my lethargic bunch in the back of the lecture room.... MORE independent Research!

Your man in the Faculty Lounge:smoke: lookin' up more Big Dick LIES,
GG:hangover:

[GOPBasher]

55. FACT: Kerry would be the most left wing president ever!

On economic issues, Kerry would be one of the most left wing presidents ever, on par with FDR and LBJ. Then, on social issues, he'd be the most progressive ever, hands down. (He supports civil unions, for example.) Put those together, and we'd get the farthest left president ever. So this guy obviously has no idea what he's talking about. The kind of president he wants will never be elected. If he can't be happy with the most liberal we've ever had, well then fuck him.

[Polemonium]

62. Left is not synonymous with progressive

I think the jury is still out on how progressive he will be. He will I'm sure make me proud, and I will of course long for the day when we get a more progressive guy in there. Not sure what your upset about though.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. You are a BROKEN record....go away.

[JI7]

65. i have seen your other posts and you seem to have an agenda

which is to stop others from voting for the democratic ticket.