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CrowNotAngelGRL Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 12:48 PM
Original message
Help with my dad!
Hey all. My dad is pro-Bush (my mother, brother and I are for Kerry) and earlier today at lunch we got into a little argument about everything going on. I tried my best to show it is the wrong war at the wrong time and gave my valid points. I even used Kerry's Bush Sr reference from the debate. I also made point that Clinton even warned Bush about Osama Bin Laden and how he and Suddan Hussien weren't on friendly terms (so to speak) and how the attack happened on Bush's watch and not Clinton's. We also talked about the economy, the large debt etc. With the large debt we're in he said we've always had a debt and that Kerry consider's people like us to be rich (my dad is an engineer and makes $75,000 a year if you're wondering). He also was talking about how Iraq was an enemy even though I pointed out they had NOTHING to do with 9/11 and that was the orginial "war on terror" and how Bush rushed right into war without any plan of leave and any aftermath plan as well and didn't let inspector's do their job(s). I would just love some help with this. He's been republican forever and is a very stubborn person too, so I would greatly appreciate it. You also have to prove things to him so I'd need some very reliable article's or video footage I can download and burn onto a cd (our dvd player's can play burnt video's). I'm going to buy Michael Moore's movie and some other's I've seen for buy. Definietly the Michael Moore movie since it's pretty reliable since he uses actual video footage. Thanks to anybody who can help. If you want you can also directly inbox me. Has anybody had any success in showing people Moore's movie and changing their mind about voting for Bush? He also brought up Hitler and I told him how Prescott Bush was even helping him then. I care so much about what happens with the world. I don't want Bush to win and the world be ten times worse in 2008. Thanks.
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skylarmae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. someone call the child abuse people - (just kidding)
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Tell him you will never move out if bush is elected
You will never be able to find a job and there will be no welfare to support you with out one, so you will just sit on the couch for 4 more years.
That is assuming you still live at home.
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CrowNotAngelGRL Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Yes I do
since my school is just down the road. If I did move it'd be an apartment downtown which would take longer to get to the school I go to (a local community one). Plus, I don't have time right now with studying to have a job, so that'd suck. :\ My school doesn't have dorm rooms since it's just a coummunity school.
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CrowNotAngelGRL Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I also thought about
saying to him that if he vote's Bush and in 2008 the world is better off then I apologize (I doubt it) but if Bush wins and in 2008 the world is worse off then it's his fault and not mine.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Moore's movie is good, also get
"Going Upriver" which is about Kerry in Nam and after... it will really make him respect what Kerry did and why he did it.

Also try to think about why he is saying what he is saying. What worldview is he coming from that makes him a lifelong repub? How can you express your worldview to him in ways he can understand? Don't just argue issues... reframe the debate.

google "Don't think like an elephant" and 'Lakoff' to find the page with George Lakoff's new book that is good. many good articles and sample pages from the book on the Chelsea Green website that will help you understand how to really debate a republican.
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CrowNotAngelGRL Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. I definietly want the Kerry movie
whether it's cause of him or not. I saw the preview of it on the site and it looks great. My favorite is when they have the line of where some men are changed by history while other's change history or something along those lines. Love it. Do you know if that movie will be available on DVD at store's like FYE? I don't know if it's playing here or not (I haven't heard about it on the local news or anything). :\
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Your Dad Needs Therapy, Not DVDs
You can show him all the articles and movies you want, it sounds like his mind is made up regardless of what's really going on.

Don't waste your time, therapists get paid $100 an hour to change people's minds and fail most of the time.

I make fun of my con friends now. For instance: the other days a couple of them were again saying nobody was tortured, I just laughed and said "nobody was tortured, that's a good one!".

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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Point out we got attacked BECAUSE of Bush.
Go here for the details -- if I copy the links, they don't work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Enjoy!
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CrowNotAngelGRL Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. That's what I told him
that Clinton warned Bush of Osama and then we got attacked on 9/11. Bush should have been making our security better and stronger instead of being off and playing golf or whatever on vacation like he was. I'm definietly buying Moore's movie and also there's another Iraq movie called "Uncovered." Both are at really great prices too. I also want to try to get the Clinton movie. So far all the movie's I want to get are around $10 according to the FYE.com site. I know the store here will have at least the Moore film and I'll make my dad watch that one whether he likes it or not since he loves to have stuff proven to him. :eyes: He even does stuff like that to my Mom. :eyes: You can never just say something (like if you heard it on the news) without proving. It gets really old and pathetic.
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ZombieNixon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I saw a very power point made in someone's signature here
It said something from a purported al-Qaeda manual. Something like: "Bush is the most foolish of leaders. Kerry and the Democrats have a plan to kill our nation by marketing blashphemy to the Muslim nation as civilization. Bush does not follow this and spreads our message. For this reason, we wish him to be reelected." Whoever has this signature. Can you post the real deal and tell me where you found it?
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Go to the link in #5. I've got the details for that one there. nt
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Let me summarize better --
In Feb 2001 Bush DISMANTLED the anti-terrorism systems WITHOUT PUTTING ANYTHING ELSE IN PLACE. (Leave Clinton out of it.) He did nothing for EIGHT MONTHS. He spent the entire month of August on vacation. On September 10th he cut the anti-terrorism budget. We all know what happened on September 11th. After the attacks he put the "old" systems back in place, which is why we haven't been attacked since. You can read the links I provided you for the details. F9/11 will also help you. Good luck! :) Ida
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. i think I might stay away from M Moore, a better choice may be
Outfoxed or Bush's Brain
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artfan Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Try to be very logical in how you frame your arguments
ask questions like under whom has the gvt been larger

how safe is his job and the jobs of others he knows

is outsourcing good for the country

why does he feel Kerry is going after people in his tax bracket ask for supporting info

watch outfoxed and ask him to join you it is a great look at fox
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CrowNotAngelGRL Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. My dad works for TVA
Edited on Sun Oct-03-04 01:16 PM by CrowNotAngelGRL
and earlier this year a TON of people were getting cut. He said he wasn't too worried (been there over 15 yrs and no where near retirement) , but another friend of our family's was a little worried he'd get cut. Luckily he didn't and they mainly went and did people who were ready or not far from retirment.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Print out this Washington Monthly article and give to your dad.
Two decades ago, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) was a highly respected financial titan. In 1987, when its subsidiary helped finance a deal involving Texas oilman George W. Bush, the bank appeared to be a reputable institution, with attractive branch offices, a traveler's check business, and a solid reputation for financing international trade. It had high-powered allies in Washington and boasted relationships with respected figures around the world.

All that changed in early 1988, when John Kerry, then a young senator from Massachusetts, decided to probe the finances of Latin American drug cartels. Over the next three years, Kerry fought against intense opposition from vested interests at home and abroad, from senior members of his own party; and from the Reagan and Bush administrations, none of whom were eager to see him succeed.

By the end, Kerry had helped dismantle a massive criminal enterprise and exposed the infrastructure of BCCI and its affiliated institutions, a web that law enforcement officials today acknowledge would become a model for international terrorist financing. As Kerry's investigation revealed in the late 1980s and early 1990s, BCCI was interested in more than just enriching its clients--it had a fundamentally anti-Western mission. Among the stated goals of its Pakistani founder were to "fight the evil influence of the West," and finance Muslim terrorist organizations. In retrospect, Kerry's investigation had uncovered an institution at the fulcrum of America's first great post-Cold War security challenge.

More than a decade later, Kerry is his party's nominee for president, and terrorist financing is anything but a back-burner issue. The Bush campaign has settled on a new strategy for attacking Kerry: Portray him as a do-nothing senator who's weak on fighting terrorism. "After 19 years in the Senate, he's had thousands of votes, but few signature achievements," President Bush charged recently at a campaign rally in Pittsburgh; spin that's been echoed by Bush's surrogates, conservative pundits, and mainstream reporters alike, and by a steady barrage of campaign ads suggesting that the one thing Kerry did do in Congress was prove he knew nothing about terrorism. Ridiculing the senator for not mentioning al Qaeda in his 1997 book on terrorism, one ad asks: "How can John Kerry win a war if he doesn't know the enemy?"
>>>>>>

But legislation is only one facet of a senator's record. As the BCCI investigation shows, Kerry developed a very different record of accomplishment--one often as vital, if not more so, than passage of bills. Kerry's probe didn't create any popular new governmental programs, reform the tax code, or eliminate bureaucratic waste and fraud. Instead, he shrewdly used the Senate's oversight powers to address the threat of terrorism well before it was in vogue, and dismantled a key terrorist weapon. In the process, observers saw a senator with tremendous fortitude, and a willingness to put the public good ahead of his own career. Those qualities might be hard to communicate to voters via one-line sound bites, but they would surely aid Kerry as president in his attempts to battle the threat of terrorism.
>>>>>
much more at link

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sir...

It's important to note that Bush1 thugs fought Kerry every step of the way as he was working to expose the terrorists and their criminal networks and funding by international officials, including our own government at the time.
No wonder Bush2 issued an Executive Order to prevent his dad's papers from being released.
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CrowNotAngelGRL Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I heard about that
and also printed it out. :D
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cheshire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. How old are you, please. Try the draft or you children paying for your SS.
Edited on Sun Oct-03-04 01:07 PM by dieharderdem
He is passing on an impossible task to his Grandchildren or his future ones. Tell him thanks a lot for putting his self before everyone he is suppose to love. You need to find the one thing that means more to him than his need to win. A vote for Kerry is a win. Good luck.
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CrowNotAngelGRL Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I'm 22 and have a 19 yr old brother
I told him we're in a huge debt and have to pay it off someway (reality please) . I don't want my kids or grandkids to pay it either. *sigh*
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