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PRE-DEBATE ELECTION MODEL: KERRY 304 EV, 94% PROB, 51.15% POP. VOTE

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:16 AM
Original message
PRE-DEBATE ELECTION MODEL: KERRY 304 EV, 94% PROB, 51.15% POP. VOTE
Give it a week or so for the polls to reflect the wipeout we witnessed tonight. DUers are going to love the next upward spike in the graphs.

When the Monte Carlo model has Kerry's projected vote at 53%, guaranteed he will have 350EV and a 99.99% win probability.

http://www.geocities.com/electionmodel/
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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yee-haw!
Thanks, TIA
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. TruthIsAll, I've been meaning to ask you this...
What is a Monte Carlo model?

My 19-year old mind is incredibly ignorant of statistics sometimes...:evilgrin:
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Chichiri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. TIA can explain it better, but . . .
Monte Carlo is where you run simulations by generating random numbers and comparing them to the statistical odds based on the data. For example, if we run 1000 simulations and Kerry wins 850 of them, the probability of a Kerry win in November is 85%.


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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thanks, but I have another question...
What if there's a significant difference between Monte Carlo and the mathematically calculated probability? I know this is probably rare, but how is it addressed when it happens? More simulations?:shrug:
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. The Monte CarloSimulation method is based on mathematical theory.
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 01:29 AM by TruthIsAll
A random number is generated and compared to Kerry's win probability for each state. So the basis for the simulation is mathematical probability and statistics.

The reason we run a simulation is because there are many combinations of states which Kerry could win. Rather than try to account for all the combinations, it's simpler to just run a simulation based on the state poll results. The individual state win probabilities are calculated based on the poll.

We seek to calculate the expected number wins out of 5000 election trials, based on the individual state probabilities..

Kerry's 2-party percentage and standard deviation of the mean (calculated from the state 4% MoE) are input to the Normal Distribution to determine the probability that he will receive a majority of the state vote vs. Bush.

The win probability is the number of Kerry wins divided by 5000.
His expected EV is his average EV for the 5000 trials.

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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. What computational source of random numbers?
What is the source of the random numbers used? Is the software library or source code used a source of hashed randomly-sampled data or scrambled seeds?

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. The Excel RND function. I leave it to you to look up the
seed. It's unimportant since the model is always calculating unique probabilities as the polls change. Its not like we are running the same calculations over and over again.

Test the RND function yourself in Excel.

tia
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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. No need, here is a Microsoft reference on that subject:
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 02:08 AM by Heath.Hunnicutt
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=828795&product=xl2003

Looks like you are solid if using the latest version of Excel. If you need a free copy of Excel 2003, send me a PM, TiA.
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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. My take on Monte Carlo:
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 01:25 AM by Heath.Hunnicutt
Here is the explanation from TiA's site, with me mixing in some of my explanation:


Simulation Methodology: Monte Carlo simulation-random numbers applied to normal distribution for 5000 election trials.

Win Probability is pct of simulation trials Kerry wins (at least 270 EV).


This is the core idea behind Monte Carlo analysis. TiA wrote a computer program to make a "good guess" at the likely election outcome. If we make one good guess, it's probably wrong. So TiA uses "Monte Carlo analysis" and makes 5000 runs of simulated elections. They are "random"-ized which means made to vary a bit at the whimsy of chance like flipping a coin. That way, each guess comes out different a little bit, but each is a good guess. Then he reports the percentage of simulated elections Kerry won in his model. If this number is high, and the other parts of the model are done right, Kerry will probably win. Monte Carlo has a long history.

The Monte Carlo percentage is not the predicted vote. It is how many of our good guesses were "Kerry wins." If 85% of the results are "Kerry wins", that means Kerry lost 15% of the simulated randomized elections.

What it could mean is that the election is going to be very close, but that there are 85 chances in 100 that Kerry will get at least 1 more electoral vote than he needs. It does not mean he will get 85 percent of the electoral votes themselves or 85% of any ballots cast in any simulated election. It represents a prediction on the "one or the other, which is it going to be" scale.

                                          
Project Kerry pct of state popular vote. Nat % based on total state votes.


"Project Kerry" is a subject-verb clause, like "Make a projection about Kerry."

This goes with some details above that specify the random numbers are generated for each state's result, a different random number for each election.

A 'random number' is like what you would get if you flipped a penny 10 times and counted the heads. You would get a number from 0-10, but probably 4,5, or 6.

It would be weird if you flipped the penny 10 times and it was 10 heads or zero heads, but that could happen, right?

This kind of "distribution" of random numbers is called "normal." By "distribution", people sort-of mean: If you had to tally the results of trying this a lot, how would the outcomes be distributed among the possibilities, where the possibilites are 0-10, but they aren't all equally likely to happen?

4,5,6 would get a lot more of the distribution than 0,1,9,or 10 do.

If you draw a graph of this sort of thing, it's a bell curve, with the low parts over 0 and 10, and the high part over the 5.

For this election, TiA does something really similar, but 'lines-up' the bell curve over what the polls claim Kerry is getting for support. So the "average" result for each state should match up well with the polls, but randomly wobbles around their prediction for each trial.

So it is the normal curve part of his program that prevents too-crazy outcomes like Florida voting 90% for Kerry. Although out of 5000 simulated elections, that could happen a couple of times. Those would be some of the bad guesses that Monte Carlo averages out, probably, but a strength of Monte Carlo is that it incorporates the possiblity of freakish coincidences.

 
Normal Distribution calculates Kerry state win probability, based on mean poll value and Std Dev 4.0% MoE/1.96.


This has to do with the shape of that bell curve/normal distribution. This essentially says where the 0 and 10 are going to end up. Polls don't give enough data to measure this, so TiA does a great job of getting it back from their published Margins of Error, which is a related concept.

OnEdits: Seasoned with punctuation and math corrections till it tasted better to me. ;)
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thanks a lot!
Even bu$h* might be able to understand this explanation (though after tonight, that looks doubtful)!:evilgrin:
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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thank you.
Well, shucks, that is the highest compliment you could ever pay an aspiring educator. Maybe I've missed my calling!
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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. I very much want to see what the debate does to your model.
Although I have critiqued your site's methodology here before, I will admit that as polls open a wider gap, my complaint becomes less and less relevant, mathematically.

Certainly, your site is going to be a much better resouce over the coming days than any of the others. Especially that shall-not-be-mentioned-e-v-site that is being played like a game and has terrible methodology.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. LOL
You're absolutely right about the EV site. People seem to go nuts over it. I don't think it necessarily even has a methodology, which is why that site can be considered somewhat misleading. All he does is throws a poll as he gets it. Nothing else is taken into account, such as the source, samples, etc.



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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. The Nader effect is miniscule (1%) compared to the last time.
Nader votes cost Gore FL (95,000) and NH. However, Gore lost more votes in FL to 110,00 double and triple punch card overvotes, 60,000 undervotes and the disenfranchisement of at least 90,000 thousand blacks.

Its safe to say Gore would have had 2/3 of the Nader vote.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. And The End Result, My Friend
Will be very like your pre-debate computation indicates. My money remains on a final tally of 52% for President Kerry, 47% for his opponent, and 1% for other....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I agree and understand but remain uneasy
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 01:59 AM by Heath.Hunnicutt
I agree you are correct that the amount of error even possibly introduced by the Nader redistribution assumption is minimal.

I also agree with you that there should be a Nader-to-Kerry redistribution, because we saw that happen in 2000. That gave credence to a model in which some people tell pollsters they will vote Nader put actually vote Kerry.

However, a Nader-to-Kerry redistribution of 60% is not what my intuition would choose. In particular, I think the reason Nader is polling lower in 2004 is that fewer Naderites are playing the "fake poll answer" game. For those of us who are actually planning to vote Kerry, this election is too serious to play games with polls in a way that hurts us one iota.

So, I think the .6 Nader redistribution should be turned down, or configurable, or 0.

Could you satisfy my curiousity some day and run it that way?

I am sure you would agree that this is an assumption your model assumes down at the "state results" level of the program, because I see you explain the assumption pretty clearly on your page. If I have your opinion correct, you are stating that you think a 60% redistribution is a reasonable choice of how to interperet what the poll results including Kerry mean.

I hope you can see from what I wrote previously how much I admire the work you have done on this! I am sincerely impressed.

It's just that I want your model to go from, in my opinion, the best, most truth-speaking model there is, to the best there could possibly be.

We can take this to email for details some time, especially about cryptographic randomness, blah blah, and how I have an SVG state map and some python code that you might be interested in, here in my inside trench coat pocket. Right now, I am partly trying to keep this kicked till east coast dawn, and also genuinely glad to be part of explaning why your computer program models of the election outcome are the bestest. :)
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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Addendum: Your SWINGS predictions are 0% wrong
TruthIsAll, I guess I have been arguing with you, and it occurred to me that it must seem odd that I can simultaneously claim to really object to your models and also think they are the nation's best ever.

I'm sorry about flip-flopping.

So, having said so much about details that could be described as critiques, I would like to say this:

Something about your model that is unassailable are the fluctuations the outcome percentage makes. Whereas I am complaining about what I see as less than an 8 out of 1000 error in the absolute result, what I could also say is that I can't see any error at all in the fluctuations you report in simulated, estimated voting outcomes. Of course they won't match, but the swings in public opinion are exactly right.

And that is all that matters. We don't look at your model result and decide whether or not to fight. Of course we fight, united against Bush. So HooTF cares that the underlying answer might be shifted off the actual a tiny bit???

No matter what, we can look at your model results and tell how our efforts are panning out!

I could say more about how useful your model actually is and potentially could be to our side, but we have 32 days left and I am realizing more and more that everything we post here is being read carefully by the opposition.

I agree with you that more direct factors are going to be the real issue. My intuitive estimations put ideas you have written elsewhere as 'likely' on the probability scale, too. I have noticed you have a fine level of information, measured on many scales. Do you have the fifth Voltron key? ;)
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. A Primer on the Model
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Heath.Hunnicutt Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
19. I wonder when the next newest polls for your model are coming out.
How long do we have to wait? :)
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