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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 12:53 PM
Original message
Need debunking help regarding Afghanistan
A local paper had a LTTE today bragging about what a big success Iraq & Afghanistan are, claiming the Afghans had registered 10 million to vote. I am pretty sure I heard part of Al Franken's debunking of this claim, but that was a few weeks ago and I missed it. Can somebody help me out?

Iraq is easy.

I was going to start my response letter off with "Mr X seems to be living in a George Bush/Rush Limbaugh/Fox News fantasy world of spin when he states Iraq & Afghanistan are great victories..." and then go from there.





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MARALE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. here's something that might help
from Soro's speech

President Bush inadvertently played right into the hands of bin Laden. The invasion of Afghanistan was justified: that was where bin Laden lived and al Qaeda had its training camps. The invasion of Iraq was not similarly justified. It was President Bush's unintended gift to bin Laden.

War and occupation create innocent victims. We count the body bags of American soldiers; there have been more than 1000 in Iraq. The rest of the world also looks at the Iraqis who get killed daily. There have been 20 times more. Some were trying to kill our soldiers; far too many were totally innocent, including many women and children. Every innocent death helps the terrorists' cause by stirring anger against America and bringing them potential recruits.

Immediately after 9/11 there was a spontaneous outpouring of sympathy for us worldwide. It has given way to an equally widespread resentment. There are many more people willing to risk their lives to kill Americans than there were on September 11 and our security, far from improving as President Bush claims, is deteriorating. I am afraid that we have entered a vicious circle of escalating violence where our fears and their rage feed on each other. It is not a process that is likely to end any time soon. If we re-elect
President Bush we are telling the world that we approve his policies - and we shall be at war for a long time to come.

I realize that what I am saying is bound to be unpopular. We are in the grip of a collective misconception induced by the trauma of 9/11, and fostered by the Bush administration. No politician could say it and hope to get elected. That is why I feel obliged to speak out. There is a widespread belief that President Bush is making us safe. The opposite is true. President Bush failed to finish off bin Laden when he was cornered in Afghanistan because he was gearing up to attack Iraq. And the invasion of Iraq bred more people willing to risk their lives against Americans than we are able to kill - generating the vicious circle I am talking about.
...
snip
...
We went to war on false pretences. The real reasons for going into Iraq have not been revealed to this day. The weapons of mass destruction could not be found, and the connection with al Qaeda could not be established. President Bush then claimed that we went to war to liberate the people of Iraq. All my experience in fostering democracy and open society has taught me that democracy cannot be imposed by military means. And, Iraq would be the last place I would chose for an experiment in introducing democracy - as the current chaos demonstrates.

Of course, Saddam was a tyrant, and of course Iraqis - and the rest of the world - can rejoice to be rid of him. But Iraqis now hate the American occupation. We stood idly by while Baghdad was ransacked. As the occupying power, we had an obligation to maintain law and order, but we failed to live up to it. If we had cared about the people of Iraq we should have had more troops available for the occupation than we needed for the invasion. We should have provided protection not only for the oil ministry but also the other ministries, museums and hospitals. Baghdad and the country's other cities were destroyed after we occupied them. When we encountered resistance, we employed methods that alienated and humiliated the population. The way we invaded homes, and the way we treated prisoners generated resentment and rage. Public opinion condemns us worldwide.

The number of flipflops and missteps committed by the Bush administration in Iraq far exceeds anything John Kerry can be accused of. First we dissolved the Iraqi army, then we tried to reconstitute it. First we tried to eliminate the Baathists, then we turned to them for help. First we installed General Jay Garner to run the country, then we gave it to Paul Bremer and when the insurgency became intractable, we installed an Iraqi government. The man we chose was a prot\'e9g\'e9 of the CIA with the reputation of a strong man - a far cry from democracy. First we attacked Falluja over the objections of the Marine commander on the ground, then pulled them out when the assault was half-way through, again over his objections. "Once you commit, you got to stay committed," he said publicly. More recently, we started bombing Falluja again.

The Bush campaign is trying to put a favorable spin on it, but the situation in Iraq is dire. Much of the Western part of the country has been ceded to the insurgents. Even the so-called Green Zone (a small enclave in the center of Baghdad where Americans live and work) is subject to mortar attacks. The prospects of holding free and fair elections in January are fast receding and civil war looms. President Bush received a somber intelligence evaluation in July but he has kept it under wraps and failed to level with the electorate.

Bush's war in Iraq has done untold damage to the United States. It has impaired our military power and undermined the morale of our armed forces. Before the invasion of Iraq, we could project overwhelming power in any part of the world. We cannot do so any more because we are bogged down in Iraq. Afghanistan is slipping from our control. North Korea, Iran, Pakistan and other countries are pursuing nuclear programs with renewed vigor and many other problems remain unattended.

By invading Iraq without a second UN resolution, we violated international law. By mistreating and even torturing prisoners, we violated the Geneva conventions. President Bush has boasted that we do not need a permission slip from the international community, but our actions have endangered our security - particularly the security of our troops.

Our troops were trained to project overwhelming power. They were not trained for occupation duties. Having to fight an insurgency saps their morale. Many of our troops return from Iraq with severe trauma and other psychological disorders. Sadly, many are also physically injured. After Iraq, it will be difficult to recruit people for the armed forces and we may have to resort to conscription.

There are many other policies for which the Bush administration can be criticized but none are as important as Iraq. Iraq has cost us nearly 200 billion dollars -- an enormous sum. It could have been used much better elsewhere. The costs are going to mount because it was much easier to get into Iraq than it will be to get out of there. President Bush has been taunting John Kerry to explain how he would do things differently in Iraq. John Kerry has responded that he would have done everything differently and he would be in a better position to extricate us than the man who got us in there. But it won't be easy for him either, because we are caught in a quagmire.

It is a quagmire that many predicted. I predicted it in my book, "The Bubble of American Supremacy." I was not alone: top military and diplomatic experts desperately warned the president not to invade Iraq. But he ignored their experienced advice. He suppressed the critical process. The discussion about Iraq remains stilted even during this presidential campaign because of the notion that any criticism of our commander-in-chief puts our troops at risk. But this is Bush's war, and he ought to be held responsible for it. It's the wrong war, fought the wrong way. Step back for a moment from the cacophony of the election campaign and reflect: who got us into this mess? In spite of his Texas swagger, George W. Bush does not qualify to serve as our commander-in-chief.

There is a lot more to be said on the subject and I have said it in my book, "The Bubble of American Supremacy," now available in paperback. I hope you will read it. You can download the chapter on the Iraqi quagmire free from www.georgesoros.com.

If you find my arguments worth considering, please share this message with
your friends.

I would welcome your comments at georgesoros.com. I am eager to engage in a critical discussion because the stakes are so high.




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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. thanks - good stuff, but
I was looking for voter reg numbers - my PC keeps locking up when I try to search.
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MARALE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. This has numbers
http://atimes01.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FI08Df04.html

Hope this is what you are looking for
Interesting:

snip...
Initially, the majority of the Afghan adult population refused to register for the polls. The government then issued special cards to those who did register, and these cards are a virtual prerequisite for being a "national". People are stopped at bus stops and check points and forced to produce the registration cards, or else face harassment. Registration figures shot up as a result. However, in places like Zabul and Hilmand, the Taliban often besiege areas and beat up people found with cards.

In addition to approximately 10 million voters in Afghanistan, about 1.5 million in refugee camps in Pakistan can also vote. The Taliban have already distributed warning leaflets in these camps that those found voting will have their homes demolished. Some independent clerics are also preaching to discourage females from voting. This trend also exists in the Pashtun belt.

These developments aside, two powerful candidates, Syed Ishaq Gailani and Ahmad Shah Ahmadzai, will also deplete Karzai's vote bank. Ahmadzai hails from the Ittehad-i-Islami Afghanistan led by Professor Abdul Rab Rasool Sayyaf. He is influential in places such as Laghman and Paktia. Gailani comes from a powerful spiritual family with support in Kabul, beside some pockets in Kandahar and Jalalabad. Gailani is a supporter of former Afghan king Zahir Shah.

snip...
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MARALE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. And another little bit of news
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Mike L Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kerry's blog has a good piece on it posted yesterday. Look at the blog
thread titles. Also, Afghan elections have been postponed twice this year due to Taliban violence. Google it.

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MISSDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. I read somewhere that hey had "registered"
more people to vote than the number that actually live in the country. Can you say 'another lie'.
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