Please stop the bashing

[DoYouEverWonder]

Rove loves it when we bash each other. This is what he does best. He pits people against each other. He divides and conquers. Look at what is going on here and across the country. Americans are bashing Americans. Vets are bashing Vets. Rush, O'Reilly and their clones feed their followers buckets full of hate every day. Everybody is wrong except them.

So while we are all so busy bashing each other, Rove and Co are getting away with murder. They are destroying our country and our way of life.


About a month ago, I was working on the SBV story. I had just spent the weekend before investigating and exposing the people behind the Gainesville SBV Rally. In many of my posts, I was calling them things like Swift Boat Liars, Sinking Boat Vets, when I realized, what the heck was I doing? Why was I bashing a group of people I didn't even really know much about? I don't mind bashing individuals who do bad things. But a whole group?

Then I did something outrageous. One of the SBV's lives in my area. I got up my nerve and called him up. What I found at the other end of the line was a decent, human being. An elderly man who had served his country honorably. I definitely did not agree with what he had done or his politics. And I knew he wasn't going to agree with me. But we talked to each other. We had a wonderful conversation and he told me he was glad that I had called him. He said so many people had been calling him up, harassing him and saying terrible thing to him because of what he had done. He was glad to meet someone from the other side, who was willing just to talk and listen to him.

Since that day, I have resolved to be more careful in who my targets are. People like Joe Ponder and Bill Burkett are elderly guys, no longer in the best of health, who are easy prey for Rove and his gang. Did they get mislead, did they screw up, did they lie, were they used and abused by the Bush Machine? Yes. But they should not be the focus of our anger. Focusing on these individuals is a major waste of time and energy.

We have 6 more weeks to go. Keep your eyes on the prize. We must remove Bush and his cabal from power. Bashing elderly veterans, or other Americans only plays into their hands and if we do that, we will never win.

Now back to bashing Bush.

PBWY
DYEW

[Jack_Dawson]

1. SBVs are Hatchet Men

Was your friend in the commercial?

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. Yes

I mention his name in the above post.

[Clinton Crusader]

20. He was in the commercial and you think he's a great guy?????

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
:kick:

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. On a one to one basis

he was a very nice man. He had his beliefs and he had very strong opinions that I totally disagreed with.

But I could have an enjoyable conversation with the devil, it doesn't mean he's a great man, no.

[Jack_Dawson]

23. He is an asshole

I'm sure Karl Rove's a great guy too, in the right setting. The problem is, SBV dude did a commercial viewed by 280 million Americans in which he's denigrating a veteran he didn't even serve with. That makes him an asshole.

[Clinton Crusader]

26. :wonders if you'd say that about * if you spoke to him:

:kick:

[DoYouEverWonder]

28. Unfortunately, I wouldn't ever get to talk to him

because they would be carting me off to jail for spitting in his face as soon as I could get near him.

[Carni]

37. Lies and falsehoods are not "opinions"

Unless the person is delusional.

[DoYouEverWonder]

40. I'll vote for delusional

in this particular case.

[isweetpotatol]

46. While on the subject of Swift Boats...

DId anyone see John O'Neill on Chris Matthews tonite? On the same show he said, referring to the Bush TANG saga, that it was thirty years ago and we need to move on-- but that same thing doesn't apply to swift boat veterans? Matthews treated O'Neill as if he was an expert on John Kerry and took his words as gospel truth. Sounds kinda like a Dan Rather situation, if you ask me.

[wolfgirl]

2. kick n/t

:) :kick:

[mhr]

3. I Only Bash Trolls And Freepers Does That Count?

eom

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. The rule I live by

is to never say something about someone, that I wouldn't be willing to say to their face.

As for the freepers and trolls that come here to post, I think they are fair game.

[Kanary]

65. "Fair game"? Do you have a foolproof method of knowing who is who?

[DoYouEverWonder]

66. It's sort of like fishing

most of the time I can tell what kind of fish I have on the hook before I get to actually get to see it. It's just something you develop with experience.

[Kanary]

70. Well, all the "experience" of posters here has led them to

calling fellow DUers "freepers" and then "Communists" in practically the same breath.

Name calling is a poor substitute for attempts to understand.

Y'know, I was pretty impressed by your original post, and write a reply to that that I hope you'll read...... I gave you due props.

But, when you can spend that much energy in listening to and understanding a bitter old man who has done considerable damage, while I applaud that effort, but then turn around and treat DUers with contemptuous name-calling, it doesn't show much effort at working with those of your own group.

Maybe you need to consider whether you are following the herd with the name-calling, or thinking through what you are accomplishing.

Maybe someday you'll understand that hurt that has been caused by this very same bashing you decry in your opening post.

Kanary

[Pirate Smile]

5. That's nice but what they are doing to JK is shameful. Good people do

bad things sometimes.

I keep hoping some of them will come out and say O'Niel and the SBVT have gone too far but I won't hold my breath.

[A_Possum]

7. No, it's wrong what the smear boaters did

I don't care how "nice" they are. It was simply wrong and shameful, and the country itself is at stake.

They did lie, they did mislead, and they did it deliberately to destroy someone for political purposes.

I also think Burkett is lying. It would be nice to think Rove was behind all of the document stuff, but the simplest explanation at this point is that Burkett forged the documents and now has made up a pretty hokey story about getting them from a stranger (ok, I might have believed that much) and then burning the originals. I'm sorry, at the point he "burned" the originals--I just don't buy it.

People need to take responsiblity for what they've done.

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. So what if they are wrong,

and let's say you can prove this in the court of public opinion. How does that help us win the election?

[A_Possum]

11. I was really responding to what seemed

in your OP to be an excusing of an elderly smear boater (how elderly could he be if he was in Vietnam at the time of Kerry?) because of his age or naivete or something.

I'm quite sure a great number of the people who signed affidavits and such for the smear boaters did it naively, not quite realizing that it would change their lives. Perhaps they were in a huff of indignation at having talked themselves into the idea that Kerry was really a coward and a traitor.

However, if they had stopped for one moment to think about what they were doing, instead of giving in to their worser instincts to smear and destroy someone whose politics they don't like, they would have realized it. It's like a drunk driver who gets behind the wheel and kills someone and only then realizes that he's not only taken a life but ruined his own as well.

As to what it does to help win the election, I dunno. I'd like to see all of them discredited, personally, but the moment for that is pretty much past.

As to forgiving them for a human mistake, sorry. No.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant, but that's how it came across to me, that we shouldn't be so hard on these poor old guys. But they chose to walk into the arena of hardball politics, nobody made them do it. And they're the ones who did the first attack.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. No, I am not say that they aren't wrong or that they should be forgiven

That's not really up to us anyway.

Just that bashing them and trying to bring them to 'justice' is a waste of our time and energy and is very counterproductive.

Whenever you get the urge to bash someone, bash Bush instead. That's who the real monster is.

[A_Possum]

17. ok

I sort of understand, not trying to get into anything.

But I do think from what you say here, that this particular person is highly deserving of being bashed, personally.

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. Besides I wasn't referring to just him

I was also referring to Bill Burkett, John Kerry, Max Cleland and all the other Vets that Rove is trying to turn into demons.

Just look at the venom that people are unleashing on Bill Burkett right now. That's what is pissing me off, not Joe Ponder. He is just the one I happen to have first hand experience with.

[progressivebydesign]

9. I agree with you... mostly.

But honestly, we judge people by their actions.. what else do we have to judge them by? Or as our family says, 'a man that is not nice to the waiter, is not a nice man'. Your neighbor agreed to take part in something very unfair, untrue, and vile.. he may seem like a nice elderly fellow, but the truth is, he signed on to HURT another person with lies. That makes him not a nice person. My father-in-law in an elderly fellow, good grandfather, who says terrible things about liberals, other races, and other people... he can be nice, but he's not a nice person. I get the distinction.

I agree that all out bashing of people is ridiculous sometimes.. but I judge people on their actions and words in total... not in a vacuum. I don't care what Rove thinks about me, or about what I say about his minions. It's one thing to get into a spirited debate about politics and toss out some stupid-ass names, it's another to be part of a campaign to hurt and discredit others.

[DoYouEverWonder]

12. From his POV, he is convinced that all these bad things

about Kerry are true. That's what the Admiral Hoffman told him. The Admiral who was suddenly very interested in him and paying a lot attention to him. The Admiral who called him up, after all these years, and started filling his head with shit. The Admiral who told him that this SBVFT Group was only going to go after Kerry for what he did when he came back from Vietnam, not what he did when he was there.

Should he come out and denounce the SBVFT and the Admiral for lying to him? In a perfect world yes, but he still believes that what Kerry did when he came back from Vietnam is even worse than the Admiral misleading him a little.

Some of these guys were fed all kinds of crap about Kerry and the war protesters back in the 70s'. Nixon was royally po'd with Kerry and O'Neil set out to destroy him. These guys have believed O'Neill's shit for over 30 years now. It is very hard to convince them otherwise, especially when the other side wants you to go to hell.

[A_Possum]

16. Ack

To me, that just makes it worse. He's taking someone else's word for all of this? Without ever reading Kerry's testimony or trying to find out the truth for himself? So he just goes off and starts smearing someone cause an Admiral called him.

No. Worse.

I can't and won't feel sorry for him. I'm even angrier now at what this particular person did, going by what you say here. It's low and disgusting. You don't start telling or supporting lies about someone because you don't agree with them.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

10. As a veteran, every time I see one of those SBV ads

I think what stupid cocksuckers they are to BASH John Kerry
who put his life on the line, and to SUPPORT the chickenshit
little AWOL smirker asshole cokehead in the WH. Fuck them all.
Verbal bashing is too good for the lowlife motherfuckers.

[Buck Rabbit]

13. You sir are a poet. Have a carrot.

[Cha]

24. A Swartz is one of our

poet in residence!

Welcome to DU, Buck Rabbit!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

30. Yes, I thought it was rather lyrical.

Although I could have gotten in "blood-drinking" between
"asshole" and "cokehead".

Those SBVs probably are real cute and harmless when you get
to know them. In fact, they would be just exactly like us
if they weren't stoopid mudfucking bushsucking lying buttwads
from Shitforbrainsville.

[cheshire]

14. Rove says that to take the heat of all those leaving the GOP

[atreides1]

19. They Are a Part of the Bush Cabal. Just a Small Part.

"Did they get misled, did they screw up, did they lie, were they used and abused by the Bush Machine? Yes. But they should not be the focus of our anger."

I don't think either of these men were misled, I think they knew exactly what they were doing, especially Mr Ponder of SBVT. And when
it was revealed that the group he was part of was a tool, did Mr. Ponder apologize for letting himself be used, I don't recall him doing so. Mr Burkett, is now whining that CBS maligned him, even after he admitted to lying about where he got the documents, and refusing to identify the real source.

I will agree that men like these should not be a main focus of our anger, but they should both be man enough to step forward and accept the consequences of their actions. Instead they whine and cry and moan about how everyone is picking on them. Are these men to the point where they are senile and for some reason can't figure out that they are being used, that they are telling and supporting lies, if that's the case then they deserve our pity, forgiveness takes a little longer.

What I don't like is your insinuation that both of these men along with their associates were nothing more then mindless dupes, who didn't know any better.

By the way decent human beings don't lie intentionally, men of honor, also do not lie intentionally. When Mr Ponder joined with the others in discrediting Senator Kerry's service, and questioning his earning of his decorations, he lost any honor that he had earned for his service to our country. Once a man lies he has no honor, and that honor which he earned fighting for his country, no longer serves him.

To regain his honor Mr. Ponder would have to publicly acknowledge that he was mistaken and that he allowed himself to be taken advantage of, in other words he has to take responsibility for his actions. Until he does, he has no honor, nor does he possess any integrity.

Just the humble opinion, of a man who did lose his honor, and regained it.

[EST]

43. I'm afraid he first lost his honor

then the lies just confirmed it. I suspect, as in most cases, if one were to examine his life closely, one would find many, many slips and coverups, over the years. Wonder how much info exists on him, across cyberspace...

[secular_warrior]

21. I strongly disagree

I'm sick of the milquetoast attitude towards these thugs and criminals. How many more people have to die before Democrats get angry ? How many more elections are going to be stolen from us before Democrats get angry ? How many more tragedies have to be exploited by the Republicans before Democrats get angry ?

There's an old saying, "politics is simply an extension of war".

They are not our friends. Remember the Civil Rights mantra "you're either part of the problem or your part of the solution"?

We win. They lose.

There can be no other option if America is to survive. Think of this election as the early days of the Nazi takeover of Germany.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. Anyone that knows me

knows there's not a single milquetoast bone in my body.

My point is that Rove and Bush work very hard to keep this country divided. That is how they keep their power. The only way we can ever finally defeat them once and for all, is to rise above our primal instincts and quit playing their game.

Then when Kerry is in the WH, we need to put the criminals in jail and put the past behind us and get back to making the world a better place for everyone, including stupid old SBV's.

[Cha]

27. "politics is simply an extension of war".

I feel we are in a war..and you're not forgiving or unbashing in a war!

Welcome to DU!

"There can be no other option if America is to survive. Think of this election as the early days of the Nazi takeover of Germany."

That's easy to do.

[CatWoman]

29. DoYouEverWonder is a FREEPER!!!!!!

Try to disrupt!!!

FREEPER!!!!!

DISRUPTOR!!!!!

:D

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. Thanks

I needed that.

[CatWoman]

33. lol

anytime!!!

:hi:

[Carni]

32. Gee...I think I will call up Linda Tripp

And thank her for all her valor at the Pentagon.

Try to see what she's all about and get inside her head
(after all she's as close to elderly as these swift boat nit wits)

I think NOT!

People that served in Vietnam are hardly "elderly" and lacking their senses
(How old are you anyway?)

Why in the name of God, should I, or would I, defend, or empathize with the swift boat LIARS?

P.S.What Rove loves BTW is when people put up with the GOP'S shit.
if there had been some asskickers in Miami Dade in 2000 to counter Tom Delay's wimpy office people types that stopped the recount (the so called "brownshirts") we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[DoYouEverWonder]

34. I didn't call

anyone to thank them for doing bad things.

I called him to try to understand why he would be involved in such a thing and to try to get him to see the truth. I did find out why he got involved but I did not succeed in getting him to see the truth. Unfortunately, it would take way to much of my time and energy right now, to have any chance of succeeding in doing that.

[Carni]

36. So then I guess you believe Kerry doesn't deserve his medals?

What do you mean you didn't call him up to thank him for doing bad things?

Here's a newsflash:

Lying to try to get bush back in office is A VERY BAD THING

[DoYouEverWonder]

39. I think you misunderstand what I meant?

Yes I agree that what Ponder and the other SBV did is a very bad thing. That's why I wanted to talk to him. How could he do that? How could he believe such bs? It surprised the heck out of me, when he actually answered the phone himself and was willing to answer any question that I asked him.

He was not some raving lunatic, he was not an evil person, he was very civil throughout the whole conversation. He was not a Linda Tripp who knew exactly what she was doing. He was a Vietnam Vet, who for over 30 years hated Kerry because the people in his world convinced him that Kerry was right up their with the devil. In his mind and heart, he truly believes he did the right thing and that if Kerry becomes President it will be the end of the world.

Just because someone is totally wrong and blind to what I think is reality, does that mean they should be destroyed? Or should we try to find a way to open their eyes? After this election, if America is ever going to heal and get back on track, we will all need to learn to be a little more forgiving. Or we can just continue to tear each other apart, until we've destroyed them and ourselves in the process.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

42. "Or should we try to find a way to open their eyes?"

You were right there talking with the guy. Yet you say you didn't much
affect him because you didn't have the time and energy to open his
eyes. But it sounds like that poor deluded brainwashed old doofus had
the time and energy to pull the wool over yours.

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. No, it just would have required more phone calls

and if I really wanted to save his soul and get him to renounce Bush, I think I could do it, but right now, we've got an election to win and bigger fish to fry.

If things settle down after the election, I might call him again and see if I can make any progress.

[thebigidea]

54. good lord!

" and if I really wanted to save his soul and get him to renounce Bush, I think I could do it, but right now, we've got an election to win and bigger fish to fry. "

Uh, take a step back here and THINK - getting one of the Swifties to renounce Bush would be BAD?

You could do it, but you don't REALLY want to?

Jesus, you'd punch holes in their already sinking story if you got one of the guys in the commercial to recant.

That's not important enough to you?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

55. No offense, but

I think if DoYouEverWonder worked on the old Swift Boat guy
for very long, DoYouEverWonder might end up in the next
Swift Boat ad himself!

[DoYouEverWonder]

60. You have a point

I've been considering making another call. A little encouragement wouldn't hurt.

Especially, with all the bashing I'm getting just for trying to treat the guy like a human being, makes me wonder if I was just nuts to even try in the first place.

Yes, I could have called him up and just told him what I really think, but where would that have gotten me? By putting my anger aside and being a little nice to the guy, I got a fair bit of possibly useful information and a real look at how the other side see things. It always helps to know who your enemies are and what makes them tick.

[bush equals idiot]

67. I'm a Viet Nam vet. I would get in a foxhole,

Sampan or go through a swamp full of quicksand with Kerry any day of the week. I wouldn't get on the Queen Mary with that draft dodging erudite Bush fuckhead that was drunk under a table somewhere while Kerry was taking fire for him from both sides of a canal.

Any veteran who has the balls to slime Kerry for coming back and doing what he could to end that war and bring their fucking asses back deserves to be spit on by every American in a prime time HBO special.

[Carni]

45. Don't be fooled

He doesn't believe any of that crap he was telling you ...he was trying to sway YOU (That IS of course the point of the SBV ads)

Anyone hard core enough to get on TV in the public eye and spew the crap those guys have been spewing...isn't some naive person that doesn't understand what they are doing.

They're operatives with an agenda/period.

[Blue-Jay]

35. Don't tell me what to do,

or I will be forced to bash you!

<bash bash bash>

:D

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. I did say please

I'm trying to guide us down a better path. No one needs to follow if they don't wish to.

I'm not the kind of person who has any desire to make people do things. I much prefer people to want to.

[Liberal Gramma]

38. I'm sorry, I don't agree

SBV's knew what they were doing. This smacks of the "he was always nice to his dog" defence.

[Catherine Vincent]

47. Did the old bastard give you a reason why he lied about Kerry

while you had him on the phone?

[DoYouEverWonder]

50. He is completely convinced

that when Kerry came back from Vietnam that he wronged his fellow Vets by protesting the war and that Kerry blamed the Vets for the atrocities that were committed there.

I told him that I too had protested the Vietnam War. I had attended all of the War Moratoriums that were held in Central Park. I explained to him hat the reason why I protested was not because I hated Vets and/or wanted to spit on them. I protested because too many of my friends were getting sent to fight a war none of believed in and that I didn't want to see them coming home in boxes. I don't think anyone had ever explained that POV to him before.

I asked him how could he support someone that went AWOL? But to him Kerry's supposed betrayal of his fellow vets was much, much worse.

Like I said, it would take me a least a few more long phone calls, to ever even have a chance to change this fellow's mind.

[YIMA]

48. Sadly, our divided country will continue after Nov. 2nd.

It doesn't matter who wins, neither side is going to be willing to unite with the other in the WH. We have become a nation divided and it will eventually destroy the USA. All in all, I guess approximately 230 years was a pretty good run.

[Catherine Vincent]

49. The Clinton-haters started it, imo.

[DoYouEverWonder]

51. And who birthed the Clinton Haters?

None other than Bush Sr.

[YIMA]

52. It doesn't matter.

Once the country dissolves, pointing fingers will be the least of our worries.

[Generator]

53. Ugh, if you think calling them "swift boat liars"

is bashing, I disagree. I think they are liars. Of course they are men with a right to their opinion, but that's not the point. I'm not sure what the point is. Screaming Laura Bush is a murderer because of her traffic accident I would call bashing, and many here think that's a-okay.

Again, they are liars. I don't think most people on DU are nilly-willy just calling people names cause it's fun. This is a war for the soul of the country. Or they are in denial, which is just an extension of lies.

Look, I get their REAL gripe. "I didn't do no war crimes, so no war crimes happened, and that damn Kerry said we are all monsters." Lies. Kerry didn't say they personally committed war crimes, or that the majority of soldiers committed crimes BUT war crimes happened. End of freaking story. They are wrong. The fact that the fought in a war and it wasn't popular is not Kerry's fault. And you know what else, these are exactly the same men that would be defending the war in Iraq to the last dead soldier while calling you a traitor for daring to question it.

And frankly, everyone that lies and is trying to keep the Bush cabal is the focus of my anger. I don't want to live in a country of lies. A country in this much denial is headed someplace very dark.

Lies are destroying this country. I grew up in lies, I know all about lies and the sad pathetic men that we end up forgiving, but I don't really think this is the place for a therapy session on forgivness.

[Guaranteed]

56. Those bastards just put out an ad saying Kerry betrayed his country.

I think a little name-calling is just fine.

[Carni]

57. Uh...why do we all have the same creepy black and white bush avatar?

Hello?

Am I having a flashback?

How the hell did this avatar of bush insert itself on all of our posts?

ON EDIT: Damn that was weird...there was a black and white avatar image on all of the posts on this string just a few minutes ago that looked like herr bush/now it's gone.

Did anyone else see it?

[Generator]

58. Do not adjust you monitor

We have control. Nee neee neee neee. yah I saw it to and flipped, somthing with some website on GD.

[Carni]

59. That was weird LOL

And I am REALLY glad someone else saw it too!

[Rudy]

61. I can't stand it

Democrats, especially those in the swing states need to get their act together. All I hear is the same old arguement......Selected not elected....No WMD's......Lap Dog for Cheney.......Dumb as a box of hammers........etc, etc, etc. Enough of the name calling. (i.e. Allawi and GW are holding hands like gay lovers.) Enough of the pranks (i.e. Stealing campaign signs.) No wonder Kerry and Edwards are down in the polls and seemingly losing ground. It is time to discuss things with the other side as opposed to cheap tricks an name calling. The Gore defeat in 2000 really screwed with some of you. LET IT GO. MOVE THE HELL ON WITH YOUR LIFE. The Democratic Party will only be strong again when we can compete with conversation and ideas. When is Kerry going to share his agenda with us? We're 40 days out and he hasn't told anybody anything. HELLO JOHN....ANYBODY HOME? There is an election in 40 days. My Republican Friends can tell me why they choose to vote for Bush. Very few of my Democrat friends are able to tell me why they are voting for Kerry. The truth is, they're not voting FOR him. They are voting against Bush. That is no way to jeopardize the country.

Look beyond your hate for Bush. Who deservs to win on the issues.

Thanks for letting me rant...I'm just a little frustrated.

Rudy

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AuntPatsy]

63. Calm down, and stand up and turn your channel from faux

to another more moderate station which will inform you that Kerry has indeed told us many times over these past few weeks his stance on Iraq as well as other key issues such as health care, unemployment rising etc...

[A-Schwarzenegger]

64. Please stop the bashing.

Are you going to run for Mayor again?

[IdaBriggs]

68. Part 1: Is Incumbent Worth Keeping? Part 2: Is New Guy Better?

I'm an independent. I had to make up my mind (very easy for the well informed) whether the incumbent was worth keeping. He's not. I'm firing him. After that, I had to decide whether I liked Kerry or not. I do. He's a combat tested military guy (important after seeing current dude and the seven minutes of "my pet goat"), ex-prosecuting attorney (real world work experience), anti-corruption Senator (yeah!) with experience in getting difficult legislation through Congress (can hit the ground running). He's got a history of speaking "truth to power" regarding idiotic wars (Vietnam and Iraq), yet gets the "diplomacy counts" thing (no "cheese eating surrender monkey" insults to our allies). He doesn't make EVERYONE happy (by saying what we want to hear), which means he's going to be GREAT at governing the Entire Country. The current guy just makes 1/3 of the country happy; the rest of us hate his lying guts with a passion. Kerry is going to piss pretty much everyone off while he does what's best for all of us (too much/too little/whatever). He's an actual UNITER, and I am proud to be calling him My President. Does that help? :)

[Kanary]

69. You're so right, DoYouEverWonder...... "let there be peace, and let it

begin with me."

You're right...... all the bashing must stop.

You're right..... it's what the other side thrives on.

You're very right.... if we want to create a healthy nation, just getting ride of the misadministration isn't gonna do it..... that's only the beginning. The rest is harder, and that entails change in how we view ourselves, how we view each other, and the amount of common courtesy we can show each other. Sadly, I don't see much of that in our future. :cry:

I know that somewhere I have a quote I wanted to share with you that says it perfectly, but of course, right now I can't find it, and my attempt to paraphrase it will be pitiful, but here goes. "Non-violence consists of converting others with understanding, and respect, not with criticism and anger." Lousy effort, but you get the idea.

In my search for that quote, I came across some others... I hope they express to you support for what you are striving for, and I applaud your efforts!

:toast:

Kanary

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein

"High-fiving people who share your beliefs is easy. What's hard is allowing others to have a different point-of-view without attempting to silence them." Duane Alan Hahn

"A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity." Jimmy Carter (1976)

"There is only one way of not hating those who do us wrong, and that is by doing them good." Henri Amiel (1880)

"The price of hating other human beings is loving oneself less." Eldridge Cleaver (1968)

"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends . You talk to your enemies." Moshe Dayan (1977)

"Peace is not made with friends. Peace is made with enemies." Yitzhak Rabin (1993)

"Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more." Oscar Wilde

"I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends." Abraham Lincoln

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other." Mother Teresa of Calcutta

"The greatest challenge of the day is: how to bring about a revolution of the heart, a revolution which has to start with each one of us?" - Dorothy Day

Peace to you, DYEW.........:pals:

[DoYouEverWonder]

71. Thanks

and good night all.

This was fun. Let's do it again sometime.