Rethinking my choices

[Indiana_Dem]

For the last week I've been trying to look at Dean & Clark's stances on things and comparing them. I just don't know what to do. I'm almost ready to throw up the towel and go for Kucinich. All this Clark is a neoconservative, Dean's flip-flop on the issues, Hitler-Bush crap I've read in the past week just makes me want to forget about my top 2 and investigate maybe Gephardt or Kucinich.

Clark's Civil Reserve, although its voluntary, and this support of the School of Americas and some of his comments on foreign policy make me a little leary although he has inspired me with his speeches especially during the Florida debate. He seems compassionate.

Dean sparked me when he referred to Martin Luther King when defending his confederate flag comment about Southern white guys. I realized where he was going with the statement then. Dean CONVINCED me while Clark INSPIRED me.

Then I come on here to ask people re: their opinions on certain issues regarding each candidate to possibly get more information in order to make a decision and I either get lambasted by a Dean supporter or bamboozled by a Clark supporter. Look, guys, I'm just trying to make a decision and the hateful remarks to my honest inquiries make me want to eliminate both of my top 2 candidates.

Some have been very nice and I don't want to stereotype all supporters of Dean & Clark. I just some of you to know that some of us are out here to get more info in order to make the best decision one can. I appreciate all the great links outside of each candidates' websites that you give me. This is a difficult choice for me. I think it's important and I, like many of you, want the best candidate for our future and to get this frightening administration out of here fast! I don't want to screw this one up. I've been voting since 1984 and the only time I've ever picked a winner was with Clinton. So my track record isn't very good probably because I never paid too close attention to the primaries until this year. This choice for our primary candidate will probably one of the most important choices Democrats have ever had to face. If we lose it this year, we might as well say goodbye to life as we know it & and maybe even life itself. So, I hope you understand my vigilance & determination to choose the right candidate. Thank you.:cry: I'm just very frustrated right now.

[AP]

1. For peace of mind, support Edwards.

He's the feel good candidate.

[Indiana_Dem]

9. Edwards was one of my first picks when I first began looking

at the candidates. But then I saw him in the debates and on some TV interviews and I wasn't impressed. I liked his platform though. I've donated to his campaign and still keep posted on his campaign by receiving his emails. His most recent interviews and the last debate impressed me. He's become better with experience. I didn't like his fight with Dean in one debate though about the confederate flag/North-South issue. That totally turned me off. I appreciate his focus of attacks more on Bush than on the other candidates.

[AP]

15. Edwards is without a doubt the best on race. Dean is a little frightening

on race. The best way to summarize it is that Dean captures the hollywood version of race relations: white people celebrating their ability to change their subconscious feelings about race, without really have to do anything more substantial. It's the Bagger Vance version of race relations. It's all about how white people feel.

Edwards is way more sophisticated on race. Edwards reduces it to this: in the town where he grew up, Robbins, today the demographics have changed so that it's more than 50% latino immigrants. However, they're moving to Robbins for the same reason his father moved there: to give his family a better life. Edwards is fighting for those people to have the same opportunities he has had.

That's what it's all about. It's not about feelings. It's about an equal chance economic opportunity on a level playing field, guaranteed by the law.

From my perspective, Edwards was so right to draw the distinction between him and Dean on race. In fact, the contrast isn't stark enough.

So, come on home to Edwards. Click through the link below and give him a few more bucks.

[bearfartinthewoods]

42. everyone's second choice is THE ONE who can unite us

and wouldn't you just love to watch bushboy try to debate Edwards?

[burrowowl]

2. Why don't you go with Kucinich

an honest-to-god Democrat?

www.kucinich.us

[Indiana_Dem]

11. I really love Kucinich in the debates

and the Ted Koppel thing spurred me on to contribute $ to his campaign. I thought that was a raw deal. I appreciate his unwavering stance on his issues. I respect that the most. He has heart. I believe he and Clark are probably the most heartfelt out of the 9. I was so upset when most everyone walked out on him in the Florida convention after Dean spoke. They should've put him before Dean. I felt so sorry for him because he was really moving and gave a wonderful speech.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maxr4clark]

18. What does n/t mean???

[Indiana_Dem]

20. no text

[maxr4clark]

30. "no text"; what does that mean?

[Clark4Prez]

35. Just a subject no text in the message

Its a way to make a quick response to someone.

[diamondsoul]

36. It means

there's no text in the body of the post, that the post title is the entire message.

[Melinda]

4. We cry together, we do.

No long diatribes... just know that others know too and that we care. :hug:

[incapsulated]

5. All I can say is..

Leave DU, for now.

You are not likely to get any real help in here in making a decision. This forum has basically turned into one long flamefest.

Go to the candidates websites. Visit their blogs and ask questions there. Read what you can about their positions.

And remember, this country has survived much worse than Bush, we will all survive win or lose. :)

[slinkerwink]

10. that's excellent advice!

[Clark4VotingRights]

27. It is excellent advice. You won't get any less frustrated here. :)

We'll all just lobby you to back our candidates.

They all have issues sections on their websites...

[JVS]

6. This might help

http://www.dnet.org/

[wtmusic]

7. Good place to go

http://www.ontheissues.org

if you haven't already been there

good luck

:-)

[BootinUp]

8. First

Don't get frustated about your vote. Use it how you think best. I will make a couple remarks:

SOA. As I understand it there was a pretty massive reform to the system for reviewing curriculum in 2000. It is done by congress and by independent organizations annually. While you have a valid concern, consider the fact that we have an opportunity to impart our better American ideals to the students as part of the program. If the school didn't exist, what would the effect be?

I would also recommend that you read at least part of the following speech by Clark. It is my favorite speech he has done on Nat Sec/FP:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=87066#87438

Cheers

[Indiana_Dem]

19. I guess with me

and undoubtedly with others out there------we don't want/like war as a whole anyway so anything/anybody who might be military we are now in fear of being noeconservative in their thinking. We don't want a series of pre-emptive wars and the whole world hating us. So anybody military seems scary. But I guess we must'nt stereotype every military person as being a neocon. I even heard Clark in a TV interview lastnight speaking against the neoconservative agenda, so either he is not a neocon or he is lying. Sad thing is, we've been lied to now by our present President and it makes everyone a little nervous about voting for a lifelong General. But then you can look at the fact that most of these neoconservatives have never even seen a combat field--all they do is make theory and policy and want to play war games. At least Clark has been in the thick of military operations and knows what works and what doesn't from some experience. You would think that this would account for better decision making than a neocon administration who haven't been on the battleground themselves.

[BootinUp]

25. Thanks for the response BTW.

I am involved this year in politics because I was very much against the Iraq war. Normally I don't give money or talk to people about politics, I just vote. This year is different. I have contributed to Clark because I think he is really special and has very good qualities that we need right now. I believe that Clark would be the last one to take us to war, he has seen it up close, he has had to call or write the families that lost loved ones, he was wounded himself. I tell you that it is those that do not know war that I am more afraid of. Did you read the snippet of that speech?

[Indiana_Dem]

28. Yes I read the speech

It inspires me just like most everything he says.

[morgan2]

12. its simple

if you want the candidate with the best momentum and media coverage.. choose Dean
if you want the candidate with the best chance of winning over military enthusiasts and wanna be tough guys.. choose Clark
if you want the candidate with the best ideas.. choose Kucinich

[burrowowl]

26. and

you can vote your conscience with DK!
Ah! and if you vote your conscience, maybe others will too!
Give the downtrodden masses a VOTE!
Read Jim Hightowrs If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us a cndidate.

www.kucinich.us

[xxqqqzme]

13. take the pressure off yourself

(unless U R in Iowa or New Hampshire 'n then your phone hasn't stopped ringing) When is your primary? Take your time. It sounds like U have made a good start. If U have dem friends or family...ask them who? 'n why? Don't fret. U will make the right choice.

[Indiana_Dem]

22. Well for starters my husband is voting Dean

no questions asked. All of my other Dem relatives aren;t sure yet either. Secondly, this sounds silly but my primary isn't until May. The reason I want to choose soon is because I really want to make an effort this time and throw my whole support into the person's campaign. I want to be sure. I will lead in my town of 35,000 when i find out who I want to choose!

[diamondsoul]

40. Ok sincere advice here pushing no candidate

Honestly, the Primaries are a chance for you to vote your heart, and this is especially true in Indiana. Most of the time the nominee is already decided by the time we have our Primary BUT we still send a message to the Party by voting, even if the race isn't close.

So examine them all, figure out who really comes closest to representing what you want and vote for them. For me that's unquestionably Kucinich. So far he's not come up with a statement I didn't agree with, although he has made me blink a few times. LOL

I can tell you Dean has a lot of support here, though I haven't seen much in Indy for Clark. That may just be a group I'm not running across, though and stronger than I'm aware of. Pretty much the two biggies as far as I can tell are Dean and Kucinich.

[xultar]

14. Kucinich is a great guy, he's my number 2 tied with Kerry!

Also take a look at Kerry.

[Printer70]

16. It's trying

...we have an important decision to make, and it's so consequential that we all can get testy at times. I agree with others that that you may want to take a break from DU. For now, it's more heat than light. Do consider what path you'd like the Democratic party to take and what it ought to stand for. I sincerely believe that we are the hope of this country and how we remake ourselves will help determine how we can remake the country.

[maxr4clark]

17. What don't you like about the idea of a Civilian Reserve?

It beats the tar out of the Dean idea I heard tonight at a district Democrats meeting, of using the National Guard to accomplish homeland security. What is needed for homeland security bears no resemblance to the colonial Minuteman idea of the National Guard that Dean's representative told us about.

And this was Dr. Ashby, one of Dean's approx. 100 foreign policy advisors, according to him. According to Ashby, quite a number of Dean's foreign policy advisors are Republicans, including him--he was a political appointees of the Reagan and Bush I administrations. And this was the high-profile spokesman for Dean at a Democratic Party-sponsored informational meeting! I was astounded, especially after everything I've heard here on the DU about Clark's supposed connections with neocons.

Understand, Dean is okay by me; if he wins the nomination, he's my guy. I'm just saying that the Dean supporters here who seem to be so concerned about whether Clark is a Democrat in a guilt-by-association kind of way should be asking similar questions about their own candidate, if the Dean campaign is going to send Reagan Republicans to represent Dean in Washington state, part of "Dean country".

Just for completeness, the event was organized by the 1st Legislative District Democrats. Kerry was represented by US Representative Adam Smith, by the way, and Clark was represented by a young grass-roots activist (whose name I don't remember) since Kevin Price, the director of the WA for Clark campaign, is off on a "1000 miles for Clark" trip around Washington state. There were also representatives for Lieberman and Kucinich but none of the others despite the organizers' best efforts. It was a poor event for Clark, since Clark's representative was replacing someone else, and therefore had very little time to prepare for the questions, which were handed out well in advance. Adam Smith did a great job for the Kerry campaign.

[Printer70]

21. Politics of Fear

That's the main problem with Civilian Reserve- it rallies the masses into an organization based on the premise that the next terrorist attack is around the corner. But I don't want to debate here. This thread is for the benefit of the original poster and I don't think this would be proudctive.

[Indiana_Dem]

24. Thanks printer70

[maxr4clark]

31. Yes, thanks

[Virginian]

23. But you made the right choices.

"I've been voting since 1984 and the only time I've ever picked a winner was with Clinton. "

There is a difference between making the right choices and picking a winner. You have picked the right man, he just hasn't always been the one who won because of the poor choices so many others have made.

Don't ever confuse what's right with what everyone else does. You are the person you have to live with for the rest of your life. Make decisions you can live with.

[hellhathnofury]

29. When is Indiana's primary?

Dean or Edwards is my call. Edwards has a great platform. Dean has a great campaign.

Dean/Edwards 04

[diamondsoul]

37. May 4th n/t

[hellhathnofury]

43. At least you won't really have to vote for a candidate.

Or at least I hope so. A brokered convention would be horrible.

[diamondsoul]

45. Why would a brokered convention be horrible?

And yes I do have to "really vote for a candidate". Even if the Nominee is essentially decided, I have something to say to the Democratic Party Leadership. I choose Dennis Kucinich to say it for me.

[sandnsea]

32. Kerry - A Democrat's Democrat

I've never understood how a 30 year record in fighting for every single issue Democrats care about can be completely ignored. He can beat Bush easily and there's no doubt at all as to the kinds of social, economic and foreign policies he'd implement. All this Washington insider crap is just campaign strategy and it amazes me how easily people buy into it. We had better make sure we send a Democrat to the White House and one who can jump right in and get things done. Clinton took several years to get his feet wet and figure out how things are done. He made alot of mistakes along the way too. We can't afford that right now, there's too much of Bush's mess to fix. Send Kerry, a known entity who will fight for every day people and get our foreign relations back on track from day one.

[RafterMan]

33. Stop listenening to supporters

Seriously.

Watch Clark appearances at http://www.us4clark.com/mediaclips.html. I'm sure a Dean supporter will give you a similar link to stock up on Dean appearances.

Remember -- you're voting for a President, not his supporters.

I hope you chose Clark because he inspires me, too, but it's your choice.

Best of luck.

[LWolf]

34. Here's a great thing:

There are some great choices that aren't Dean or Clark. Look at them and choose the one you like the best. Kerry/Edwards/Kucinich...

Of course, that said, I'd like to plug Dennis. Heart, integrity, persistence, confidence, experience, and 100% free of corporate control.

He pulls no punches; he goes straight to the heart of the matter and addresses it. One of the things I like best is that he treats the problem, not the symptom.

A vote for Dennis is not a vote for "better than *." An eggplant would be better than Bush. A vote for Dennis is a vote for the best that our nation can be.

[diamondsoul]

38. Ahhh, do look into Kucinich.

Even if he isn't your final choice he's worth examining, and please, please! Sign the petition to get him on the ballot!**shhh, I'm the Indiana Kucinich Coordinator.

[KaraokeKarlton]

39. I lived under Dean's leadership for over a decade in Vermont

Most of the criticism of him that you hear on here isn't even accurate or true. He's a damn great leader, and if he does even half as good as president that he did as governor and this country will be in much better shape with him at the helm. He's won at least 10 consecutive elections, including the nastiest hate campaign you could imagine that was run against him in 2000 right after he signed Civil Unions. Clark hasn't won any elections at all and he doesn't have a political record for you to look at to see what kind of choices he makes and things he does. Dean has a phenomenal record. Dean also has more money and isn't constrained by spending limits against Bush. Clark isn't going to be able to defend himself against attacks whereas Dean is. It doesn't matter who the nominee is, if Bush has months to pump out negative ads and the nominee can't run ads countering them, we're screwed. Dean is the best bet. He'll pick a VP with more foreign policy experience to help ease any concerns by swing voters, and Dean is extremely intelligent and has a natural ability of solving very difficult problems. That's one of his strongest qualities. He also almost always delivers what he says he's going to deliver. There's no way for us to know if Clark can deliver because he has no political record to look at. I feel it's just too risky to support Clark simply because he's a general. We can't run 4 stars against a flight suit if we want to win. We have to keep the focus on where Bush is weak, not where he's perceived strong. Dean can frame the debate for the general election easy enough and keep Bush on the defensive. I don't think Clark can.

Ultimately, it's your vote. Gephardt is not a good candidate at all. Kucinich would be more deserving if you aren't going to support either of your two top choices. I'd recommend Dean. Try not to listen to the rhetoric and flame baiting for information. Some people on here are more concerned with attacking and spreading misinformation than providing good information to help people choose a candidate. I hope my post helps you.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

41. I've been looking at their records and Dean is just too conservative for

me. Particularily bothersome for me: His stances on medical marijuana, criminal justice, the mentally ill, Affirmative Action, gun control, the Death Penalty, welfare reform. Also his record on the environment and dealing with corporations did me in.

These are important issues that I will not "bend" on. Yes, it was nice that Dean spoke out against the war - but he has a "mixed" record on that. He has changed his position on that several times.

Almost all of the other candidates overall have more Progressive records on most of these issues than Dean except Lieberman (yes, even Gephardt). People are simply not looking into to Dean's past record.

Even Lieberman has more Progressive stances on several issues than Dean, however.

[isbister]

44. Re: I've been looking at their records and Dean is just too conservative

Almost all of the other candidates overall have more Progressive records on most of these issues than Dean except Lieberman (yes, even Gephardt). People are simply not looking into to Dean's past record.

That's true but I'm sure there are many who have looked into Dean's conservative and believe he's changed, can live with some positions he's held, or agree with them.

I think Dean is a misleader on many issues but never have I heard him say he was left wing, that's the corporate media that calls him that.

[tedoll78]

46. Dean or Clark, Clark or Dean.. hmm..

I struggled with the same issue about three months ago. I began in late 2002 as a Dean man. In November last year, I freaked-out over electability for about 3 weeks and called myself a Clark man. Then I came back over to Dean when I realized that either can win against Bush. Either will be slammed by Bush for different things. And either will fight back.

To me, electability is a non-issue. Dean claims that he's bringing new people into the process, and honestly, I see some evidence of this. I've seen reports on CNN where the veteran reporter who's covered local Democratic Party events for years expresses amazement at the number of "new people" attending those events now. Then there are the tons of people under 30 participating and giving money. And the people attending MeetUps who have never done a political thing in their lives. There's a theory about these alleged new voters coming in with Dean, and it will either be confirmed or dispelled in Iowa and New Hampshire. If there is a notable increase in turnout at these events, and if that increase is indeed linked to a Dean victory, then he has hit on something big - he will have hit a raw nerve with folks who were previously non-voters.

Clark, on the other hand, seems to be going down the more traditional route - a relatively low-risk plan that involves holding the base together and competing for crossover voters to reach victory. This plan has worked in the past for some candidates, or failed (either barely or miserably). I worry that Bush is so strong with his base that we won't be able to pull many crossovers, but then again, I can see how Clark would have strong appeal to them.

Either choice is a very fine choice. Either one would make an excellent President, even when not comparing them to Bush. Court appointees, respect around the world, fiscal sanity.. they're both outstanding men, regardless of whatever nonsense is thrown at them.

Best wishes!

[Leilani]

47. Seems like you have been following things

Look at all the candidates, their issues, their contributions to our country, look at electability vs Bush etc etc.

And then go with your gut reaction...

Who inspires you the most?
Who would make you proud if he/she was in the White House?
Who would be best equipped to handle all the many tasks that a Pres. must take on?
Who do you like?

[Crunchy Frog]

48. Hi holyrollerdem

My opinion is that this is not a good forum to use in trying to get helpful information on choosing a candidate. Most people on here have already chosen, and the most active participants are fiercely partisan (including me):-)

Pretty much the only thing you will see here is flame wars and people rooting on their own candidate.

My suggestion is to go to the different candidates websites and look at their platforms. You might also want to go to the blogs and ask the people there about why they like their candidate.

You might also use google to find articles from various different sources evaluating the candidates.

If you stick around here I'm afraid your just going to sour on all of them. :-(

Good luck.

[cryofan]

49. Here is my opinion on each candidate

....well, I probably need to get a 2nd choice, as the top of the Kucinich campaign is a bit of an amateur playground, and that fact is obviously reflected in the polls. That is really sad, oonsidering the fact that Kucinich is clearly the best candidate we have had in recent times. Hell, maybe the best major candidate ever!

I used to think Edwards was too conservative, but I gave him a 2nd look. His healthcare plan does mention getting healthcare for people age 55-65. His supporters here say he likes progressive taxation. Well, looking at his plan on his site, that might be going a little far: he will tax rich people uearned income at the same rate as working people's earned income. Well, that's not exactly progressive. Not regressive, like Bush's shenanigan's, but not progressive. Edwards makes into my top 4, but he will have to do better.

As for Dean, his past words and actions show him to be an enemy of the left, an enemy of progressive taxation, and an enemy of the social safety net. He is obviously a cryptoRepublican (see www.mylinuxisp.com/~cryofan/dean.html for proof). And his deception makes him somewhat loathesome, in my eyes. And that is really a shame, because he is the most talented speaker I have even seen in politics. And his campaign is a wonder to behold--truly magnificent and groundbreaking...what a shame to have such a campaign built around a damn PseudoLiberal.

Lieberman is obviously a Republican, and not even a cryptoRepublican, like Dean. Nuff said....

Sharpton is a crook. Nuff said....

I really really like what Moseley-Braun has to say. She could possibly be a very good president. Unfortunately, I think that every black politician I have ever seen is looking out more for fellow blacks than everyone else in the country. Carole could be an exception, however. Also, she had an ethical cloud hanging over her when she was busted out of the Senate. However, given her somewhat leftist leanings, she could have been framed by the media. One DUer claimed she was framed by Rove. Also, anther DU here, a lefty, claims she is not all that leftist, and that while in the Senate, she was a corporate lapdog.

So, now we are left with Clark, Gephardt and Kerry. Clark is currently running for first, tied with Gephardt, closely followed by Kerry. Clark is starting to sound like a real lefty. I really like that, even though he could be lying. But it is good just to hear the things he is saying about taxation.

Gephardt is well known for his pro-labor record. Can't go wrong there! Kerry supposedly has a solid liberal record, and he is talking a lot of progressive talk lately. I go back and forth between these three on a daily basis.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

50. Just in case you haven't noticed

DU is the LAST PLACE you should come for reasonable & reasoned debate or advice on which candidate is best.

Here at DU you have a majority (at least of those who actually post) who are fanatically rabid for their candidate.

Fanaticism leaves little room for reasoning.

And I'm not trying to be snotty here...all you have to do is look at the majority of the threads to see this.

If you want to come to a reasoned conclusion stay away from DU & look at the candidates & their positions...

Just MHO.

Peace

[dpbrown]

51. You'll make a more informed choice by investigating other candidates

Kucinich's vision for the future of this nation both CONVINCED and INSPIRED me.

[tpub]

52. Please look at Kerry

Look at his lifelong record as a progressive. How can we pass up the chance to have this man in the White House?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

53. Go with your heart and the issues that are for the people

of not only this country but the world.

Vote your heart in the primaries and you will have NO regrets!

TWL