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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:35 PM
Original message
Is it right that some DUers who have been "pushing " the House HCR bill...
will not/can not answer the question "Will you support the bill with the Stupak Amendment intact?"http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. right as in "factually correct" or as in "a moral good" or as in "legally permissable"?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Take your pick, just take note.
;-)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Lost it, huh?
:rofl:

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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Answer it.
:o looks like you are the one who "lost it" C'mon, toss your fellow women under the bus, go ahead!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Are you suffering? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:50 PM
Original message
I don't care.
Accept facts and stop trying to make this about me.

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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. No it is about you, are you willing to accept the Stupak Amendment, or not?
It is a very valid question that gets right to your motivations.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. No it isn't about me, not in the slightest.
The Stupak amendment sucks, the people who voted for it suck. I support the House Health bill. The people who voted for it were wrong, and their excuses were lame.

Now what?

Does my answer improve your ability to deal with the facts?

:rofl:


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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. That sounds like a Yes.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Nope, is that a YES?
three letters, just type 3 letters.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Accept the fact that you're trying to distract.
Pathetic.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. This is a MAJOR part of this bill.
This amendment goes miles to destroy decades of advancement in womens' rights, and you call it a DISTRACTION??? Shame on you. SHAME.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. "Shame on you. SHAME." Hillary?
:rofl:







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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. WOW stooping to that? Your fellow woman must be proud!
Rock on Sister!!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. No, you just think you're onto something
and your desperation is showing.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Your "Yellow streak " is glowing!!!
C'mon just tell us all that this bill is more important than decades of hard won freedoms for American Women. Just say it!! You know you want to.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Someone is making an ass of themselves.
:rofl:

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Don't be so hard on yourself.
:hug:
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. No ProSense, maybe now you realize this is not a fucking game to be "WON" or "LOST"
This is real life with very real consequences. Again, SHAME ON YOU !
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Someone's desperation is showing. Don't project it onto me.
You could easily just answer the question and explain why we're not onto something, no? Berni had the guts to answer the question. You don't.

I'd say I wonder why, but I think I already know.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Being able to answers a simple question and indulging a fool
are not the same thing.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Well you haven't been able to do either.
What are you so afraid of, Prosense?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Your true colors are now on display for all to see.
ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS PASSING A BILL , ANY BILL. ALL YOU WANT IS A WIN, A VICTORY SPEECH AND A ROSE GARDEN SIGNING. At least now we all know what you are, it's just a matter of dickering a price.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. .
:rofl:
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. laugh till you cry.
just a game, right? you are such a fine democrat.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
51. Oh, somebody's playing with the computer while the babysitter
isn't watching.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. I know. You shouldn't do that.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Nope, I'm just sittin' back watching the likes of you squirm.
It's easy, just say what you think, YES or NO? Are you willing to shit-can decades of reproductive rights progress to pass this "reform" bill?? Bummer, you can't answer it. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :rofl: :rofl:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Enjoy. n/t
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I am.
Squirm. This question will rear it's head until you answer it.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. No one is "pushing" it. We are defending the good parts of it against those
who say throw it away and start over, when you damn well know starting over is not an option.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You as well. Will you support the Bill with the Stupak Amendment intact.
Simple yes or no, are you willing to take the leap??? :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Only if that language is stripped, as Obama has requested.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Good move berni, I will hold you to that.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Sure it is...
...because you know the House is going to scramble anyway to pass a new, improved bill if the current House bill dies in the Senate, right? Congress has a deadline, after all, and Obama cannot afford Congress leaving him holding the bag on this issue.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Are these the ones who respond to legitimate concerns by saying "FAIL"?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Yup, and I have not found one yet to answer.
This really highlights their motives. All they want is a "WIN"
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. You're onto something here. n/t
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Keep it going , ask them all to commit.
This dog of a bill, or the right of choice for women. Yes, or NO.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. Now THAT's 3-D chess! Pin them to where they have to either blow their cover, or disobey orders.
Brilliant.
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
18. Interesting question. Interesting lack of response.
Hmm.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. This is the issue that will expose those who want only a "WIN".
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. They don't have to be exposed, they are as
obvious as can be.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. Yup,
exposed:

Barbara Lee Releases Statement On Passage of Health Care for America Act

Washington D.C. Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA) released the following statement today after the House of Representatives approved H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act:

Todays historic vote is one step forward in our quest to provide health care to all Americans.

While there is still much work to do, I applaud President Obama, Democratic Leadership and the Chairmen of the Tri-Committees for their efforts to bring us to this point.

I also want to thank in the Tri-Caucus, Progressives Caucus and particularly the 42 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. Together we have led the fight for a strong public option, which is included in the health care bill that the House approved today.

When others were pronouncing health reform dyingand the public option dead and buriedwe kept on fighting! And we will keep fighting until a final health care bill is on the presidents desk that includes not only a strong public option, but provisions to achieve health equity, eliminate health disparities and to limit the rate of increase for those with private plans.

We have and will continue to champion issues such as the need for support for patients with end stage renal disease, for childrens mental health, and dental care, workforce pipeline issues, and expansion of community health centers.

These provisions and others attack the many causes of health disparities, and we fought to get them in. Under the leadership of Congresswoman Donna M. Christensen, we have also championed expansion of the Office of Minority Health because we need a comprehensive way to address minority health across agencies.

Finally, because we know that 85 percent of Americans are in private insurance, under the leadership of Rep. Donna Edwards, we fought to have included cost containment provisions to keep premiums reasonable. We know that the American people want and deserve affordable health care. We also know that this bill is cost effective for our country, and for American families watching their budgets.

This was a historic vote, but we must keep up the fight until we have a final bill on the presidents desk. Health care should not just be a privilege for a few; it should and must be a basic human right in the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world.



CONGRESSMAN GRAYSON PROUDLY SUPPORTS AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE FOR AMERICA ACT

November 7, 2009 9:18 PM (Washington, DC) Congressman Alan Grayson voted tonight in favor of the Affordable Health Care for America Act. The bill (H.R. 3962) will deliver life, health, and peace of mind to the tens of millions of people in the United States who do not have health insurance.

Congressman Grayson said, I promised from the start to vote for any bill that saves money and saves lives. This bill does both. This bill will help save the lives of the nearly 45,000 Americans who die every year because they do not have health insurance, Congressman Grayson said.

Congressman Grayson never wavered in his support of health care reform. Leading up to the vote, he personally spoke with hundreds of constituents, to listen to their concerns and answer their questions. Since August, he has held three health care town halls, a health care telephone town hall meeting, and dozens of other open meetings; consulted with the members of his Health Care Advisory Board; and considered the overwhelming number of calls and emails from constituents.

Congressman Grayson said, A lot of people say they love America. To them I say, its not enough to love whats in America. You cannot just love the Appalachian Mountains, the Mohave Desert, or the Gulf Coast. You need to love Americans as well. And loving people means taking care of them, sheltering the homeless, feeding the hungry, and healing the sick.

The Affordable Health Care for America Act received broad support from hundreds of important and influential organizations including the AARP, American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, U.S. Womens Chamber of Commerce, and Voto Latino.



Conyers: House Health Care Bill Will Save Lives While Fight for Single Payer Continues

WASHINGTON D.C. Congressman John Conyers, Jr (D-MI) issued the following statement today applauding the passage of H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act.

Today, I joined my Democratic colleagues in support of the Affordable Healthcare for America Act. While the bill is far from perfect, I supported it because it will expand access to health insurance to 96 percent of Americans, end discrimination based on pre-existing conditions, help our seniors by closing the prescription drug benefit donut hole, and increase competition and choice with a public insurance option.

In the near term, these reforms will improve and save American lives while we continue to fight for single payer health care at the state and national levels. I will vote for this bill because the cost of inaction is too high. Each year, 44,000 people die because they do not have access to insurance. Without reform, this number will rise, Americans will be at greater risk of losing their coverage, and our business community will continue to fall behind international competitors as their future profits are drained by burdensome health care costs.



Grijalva explained a couple of the highlights he says are in the bill. He told us there's no pre-existing condition denial, meaning if a person has a pre-existing condition they can't be denied services. He also said this bill will extend benefits to millions of American's who don't otherwise have an opportunity to receive health care coverage.

Representative Grijalva said, "It's not as strong as many of us wanted it, but it does provide for private insurances a competitive competition that will keep costs lower and make some of the premiums we see and some of the costs that we see from private insurance carriers are going to have to reduce their costs to compete with this public option."

link

The entire progressive caucus, nothing but people who want to win?

:rofl:


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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. You post lots of crap that others write, have you NO opinion of your own??
You are what you are, only the price is unknown.
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Yeah, Bill Clinton sucks and everything he says or does is suspect.
Strange...this faith in all things Obama.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. "only the price is unknown" Another idiotic response. n/t
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. No, it is clear you are "for sale" we just need to dicker the price.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. True. Similar to babblingsizzler and joan89.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Since you're so interested in my opinion,
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 06:37 PM by ProSense
why not respond here and here?

I like to keep it short and sweet.



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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Neither of those links answer whether or not you will support this HCR bill..
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 07:20 PM by MNDemNY
with the Stupak Amendment intact. Are you just "spamming" to your own silly threads?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. "weather" cool!
:rofl:


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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. When you have no real answers, attack the spelling.
Internet Dodging 101.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. When you have no real purpose
you follow behind someone making a fool of themselves and agree with the nonsense they're posting.

:rofl:

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Only one person being a fool here, one named Prosense, who is a coward as well.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Only an idiot would characterize ignoring fools as cowardice. n/t
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Only an idiot would think dodging a simple question over and over isn't cowardice.
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 07:35 PM by Forkboy
And if you were truly ignoring us you wouldn't be responding over and over. Duh.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. "And if you were truly ignoring us you wouldn't be responding over and over."
Ah, but I can ignore you and get under your skin at the same time.

I really good a multi-tasking.

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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. apparently not.
;-) :think:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Says the one who whines about Kucinich daily. Getting under your skin is he?
I really good a multi-tasking.

Yes, you can be a coward and a hypocrite all at once! :applause:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. Are you Kucinich?
Is that what's bothering you: my criticism of his lousy vote?

:rofl:

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Are you Obama?
Is that what's bothering you: Kucinich not sucking up to him?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Thanks, for the edit, now back to that question.........
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Breathe
or not.

:rofl:

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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. I'm breathing just fine.
You seem a little green around the gills, girl.Whats it going to be? Ya gonna toss your fellow women under the bus, just for that pretty Rose Garden bill signing???sucks to be you. :o :P :smoke:
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. It isn't even worth getting upset about
it's all bullshit.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
52. I support the House Bill but I would not vote for final passage
after conference committee if it were included.

It was necessary to include it at this stage because the ConservaDems were trying to use it to sabotage the entire bill by springing it at the last moment.



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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Thank you greek, i will hold you to that , as well.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. It's 'geek.' :) nt
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. My bad, geek, my theatre background "blinded me to the lack of "r"
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
57. The president must sign any bill with which he is presented.
Prior to that point, I hope that the reconciliation committee works to make the bill better.

The Stupak amendment is not the only, or even the worst, flaw.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. He must not be presented with a bill with this language.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
80. I doubt he will. n/t
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
64. I have repeatedly answered the question: yes if absolutely necessary
But I have also repeatedly said that I have no strong feeling about this and I can completely understand the position of those who think otherwise.

The Stupak Amendment is absolutely shit. Choosing between health care with the Stupak Amendment and choosing between no health care is like deciding whether to eat a sandwich with some shit on top or starving. Both are bad options. I think that eating the sandwich is the least worst option but I can easily see how somebody could come to another conclusion, particularly since I am not a woman.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. A valid position. I respect that.
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ncteechur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
70. I don't think it will be in the final bill but if supporting the amendment was the only way
we could get the hcr bill passed, I would support the bill. AND if abortion is the issue that sinks this shot at health care reform, then I hold both sides accountable.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #70
78. That is a YES for you then. Noted.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
72. YES, it's right that people don't have to play "stop beating your wife" games.
Nobody on this board has the right to force people into word games.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Of course one should not have to answer the "hard " questions.
Your analogy is ridiculous, can you answer the question? :wow:
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. So do you admit that you're still beating your wife?
It's a simple yes or no question, why won't you answer it?

Are you still beating your wife?
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
83. locking this
This is a call out and it's full of personal attacks to boot .

proud patriot
Moderator
Democratic Underground
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