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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:50 PM
Original message
Poll question: CBS News reporting roughly 40K new troops to Afghanistan
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 06:16 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
CBS News reporting roughly 40K new troops to Afghanistan

http://www.cbsnews.com /

(I am voting "I don't know what to think" because I don't. I was, however, struck by something Barry McCaffrey said today, which is that any nation building approach should be presented to the people as at least a ten year project. The mission is probably much more important than the raw number of troops.)


Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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sanoro Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's the top story on cbsnews.com as we speak
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. it's a disgusting thing
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Good.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Obama = LBJ when it comes to war
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 05:55 PM by IndianaGreen
and he will end up in the same place as LBJ did.
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. unfortunately so will a lot of our soldiers.....
This is a really bad idea. That horse left the barn 8 years ago. We do not have a chance at this late date, especially after cocking up so horrifically in the first 8 years... This will not end well for us.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Mark me down for "don't know".
I'll await more details. At any rate, this is not a game changer for me either way.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. Afghanistan is the staging ground for Iran to its south....
God help us if Obama listens to Joe Liebrman and the war hawks.

We can not afford this war.. not now not ever...
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Sorry but that is completely ridiculous - One of the major problems
with Afghanistan is that supply is very difficult and the Taliban's greatest success is in targeting the resupply caravans that operate under difficult conditions on bad high ways in terrible terrain.


There are 100 more viable routes to Iran than through Afghanistan.


In any case those interested in attacking Iran are interested in punishing the country with air strikes not with an invasion force.


That you would lump the President with those that want to attack Iran illustrates the escalation of attacks on Obama to levels of abusridity that defy rational discussion.


The President ran as a candiate, and was criticized both in the primary and the general election, as being for talks without preconditions with Iran. The only candidate to do so.


As President he has sent reconciling messages to the people of Iran, and has moved the US much closer to the position of Russia that increased sanctions are not yet called for and likely to be counter productive. The President has put the US on record as supporting Iran's pursuit of peaceful nuclear power as long as it complies with the relevent treaties.





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WHEN CRABS ROAR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why not buy the entire poppy crop and start a program to help
farmers with new crops?
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Fuck Obama if he's stupid enough to do this. nt
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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Who is stupid remains to be seen. n/t
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. This is a completely unnecessary war - about as stupid as it gets. nt
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Ah, yes, another cogent comment on the nature of the war and the thought
behind committing the troops.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. Is Obama switching parties?
If he keeps it up he might as well as.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. If he keeps it up, they can have him. nt
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. He always said Iraq was the wrong war and Afghanistan was the right war. He got applause every time
he said it. If you voted for him feeling he should switch parties, that's pretty foolish.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Obama also said he opposed health mandates and opposed DADT
Obama said a lot of things.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Whatever. He always said he's for the was in Afghanistan. And he IS opposed to DADT.
If you look at the list of promises kept, broken, in the works, etc., you'll see he has a mighty good record.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Bingo!
Now stop that. I hate agreeing with you.

:P
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. Umm, he ran on ramping up Afghanistan
So... Were you asleep for all of 2008?
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. When a General says, it'll take 10 years, what he means is "It will take a long ass time
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 06:18 PM by kenny blankenship
"and if I told you how long it could be, you would stop the conversation right then and there and all the troops would come home starting tomorrow and nobody in DC wants that, so what I'm telling you is 10 years."

The Pentagon plan for this is called the Long War and it is timelined out at 50 years. It doesn't involve just Afghanistan, so there's that to look forward to. It won't be 50 years just in Afghanistan. But since we are in Afghanistan in a special way that doesn't require us to ask permission from what we call the Afghan government, you can expect us to have a permanent presence there for the duration. We can move as many forces into Afghanistan as we like with no negotiation of basing rights or leases. That allows us to project power throughout the Central Asian region in a way that we can't get from any other country. We have bases all over the region but they're small and the local govts put limits on how many troops and demand money in exchange for letting us deploy there. Afghanistan is all ours.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. I will wait to see what Obama himself says and the reason he gives. n/t
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. And, guess what? You were right bc it wasn't even true but
your instincts were.

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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. more death.
why?

they still haven't given a coherent reason why.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. Nation?
It's beyond naive, at minimum fully delusional, to think that a nation can be cobbled up out of hundreds upon hundreds of family and tribal fiefdoms which are scattered about that region. Karzai is truly the "mayor" of only Kabul, and is as corrupt a "partner" as exists.
The ONLY interests who want to continue the "war" are the Pentagon, neocons and defense industries, plus the congresscritters who have been fully bought. I am SICK of Obama's choices.
Time for progressive citizens to take on the fucking oligarchs.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
24. I agree with you "I don't know what to think"

Anyone who thinks that there is an easy answer to this is fooling themselves.


Statements on DU that this is a replay of Vietnam are silly, the Taliban is no Ho Chi Minh and this is not a national liberation movement.


There are elements of the Taliban that are as crazy as the Khmer Rouge, in fact I would argue that prior to the Khmer Rouge arriving in power they were much more reasonable than the Taliban is today.


While this is not a national liberation movement, and all national liberation movements are not good and not all insurgencies are victorious.


Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand all successfully defeated insurgencies and all defeated them in different ways. Malaysia had a tenacious pursuit policy that had government forces remain on the trail of an insurgent party even if that meant a 60 day pursuit in the jungle. Thais negotiated an end to their insurgency with reconciliation. Indonesia defeated communist insurgents with supperior intelligence product and severe military crackdowns.


I am not an expert on Afghanistan and it is more complicated than any of the other countries in the region. Having said that I have had some experience working with Afghan refugees and resettling about 15,000 of them in 1980-1983.

So while I don't claim any special expertise on Afghanistan (my work involved very little actual face to face interaction with Afghan refugees) I would like to categorically state that recent statements made by various posters at DU that "all areas in Afghanistan are basically still in the stone ages" and that even Kabul is "in the 16th century" are among the stupidest I have read at DU, and the racism that contributes to these kind of views is appalling.


For the record. Afghanistan was a leader in progressive values in the Islamic world




Gender reform was central to the contentious issues which brought about the fall of King Amanullah in 1929. In 1959, the male-oriented government of Prime Minister Daud Khan supported the voluntary removal of the veil and the end of seclusion for women. The 1964 Constitution automatically enfranchised women and guaranteed them the right to education and freedom to work.<1>

For thirty years after 1959 growing numbers of women, most from urban backgrounds, functioned in the public arena with poise and dignity, with no loss of honor to themselves or to their families, and with much credit to the nation. Nevertheless, family pressures, traditional attitudes and religious opposition continued to impose constraints which limited the degree to which women could find self-expression and control their lives.<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Afghanistan



While some extremely remote areas remained cut off from civilization (something that could be shared with almost every large geographical country in the world), Afghanistan has had progressive and liberal leadership.

The 1964 constitution gave women in Afghanistan more equality than any other country in the region, and more than currently exist in our allies, like Saudia Arabia.

The Taliban are not the natural inheritors of a long history of oppression, Afghanistan was more developed and more progressive than any other country in the region, or the wider middle east.

The Taliban and the current situation is the result of cold war machinations that go back to 1973 and accelerated with the Soviet Union's invasion and the American franchise of the resistance.

We have a strong interest in defeating the Taliban insurgency on 4 key points

1) It would provide a benefit to Jihadist movements that continue to attack the United States and the civilized world. Even if the latest speculation is correct that the return of the Taliban to Afghanistan would not mean that Al Queda would be able to restore training and logistic operations there because our predators own the sky and they would be better to keep underground in Pakistan it completely misses the point. A Taliban run Afghanistan's main contribution would be in establishing a narco state and supplying Russia (currently the worlds largest consumer of heroin) with vast amounts of Heroin. Afghanistan would be able to sharply increase its financial contribution to Al Queda just as we are becoming more effective (with increased Pakistan assistance) in cutting off funds to Al Queda.

2) A Taliban run Afghanistan would significantly undermine stability between India and Pakistan. Pakistans support of the Taliban is not, as is commonly believed, based on any religious sympathy. It is seen as a way to distract and neutralize Indian military superiority. In the same way that the Jihadists made destabilizing relationships in Iraq between the Sunni and the Shia, the real goal is to try and incite hostility between Pakistan and India and ignite a full blown war.

3) The Taliban represents the real enslavement of real women. There are sections of the Taliban that are as crazy as the Khmer Rouge were before they assumed power. Part of the worry that a reconstituted Taliban Afghanistan is which Taliban. If the more extreme elements were successful, elements that some analysts now say are populated by significant numbers of foreign jihadists, then the amount of misery that could result is incalcuable, especially to the women and girls of Afghanistan.

4) We have allies in Afghanistan and Europe that will simply not find us a credible partner when it comes to building a coalition.


So while I have had some direct experience and have some study I have to answer that "I don't know".


I do know one thing and that is that all of the successful operations that have defeated insurgencies in South East Asia combined two key factors:

1) They have combined any military effort with strong efforts to increase the quality of life for people in the villages and

2) Even if they used strong military measures they also had real amnesty and reconciliation plans to rehabilitate their foes.


So the answer in Afghanistan that can succeed is an 'Afghanistan' solution. It must have significant plans that improve the daily life of the common Afghani and it must include amnesty and reconciliation.


By definition it has to be implemented by Afghani so that the US can only provide a short term buffer while Afghans build up their military and civilian leadership and institutions.


I certainly find the glib assessments of people who have absolute knowledge on the Afghan situation remarkable. I wonder if they have tapped into a secret source of some of that Afghan Sufi wisdom. For those that are unfamiliar with Afghan Sufism I leave you with the words of Haji Dost Muhammad Qandhari the great Afghan Sufi master in the Naqshbandi tradition:


"You hear my words. Hear, too, that there are words other than mine. These are not meant for hearing with the physical ear. Because you see only me, you think there is no Sufism apart from me. You are here to learn, not to collect historical information."





















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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. This really needs to be it's own OP...Why fuck up a perfectly good pissing
thread with this reasoned response???

Are you DRUNK????
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. as you know I suffer from a sever case of shyness.
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 07:45 PM by grantcart

I don't know that I am ready to do a full OP on my own yet.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. well.......
:rofl:
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Go ahead. No reason not to post it.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Well I was actually thinking of posting something on the issue after
the President has outlined his plan.


Until then you and I can admire the vast numbers of people who have an absolute opinion on the issue and think that leaving would have all of the complexity of turning off the light in your bedroom.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
26. MEDIAWHORE LIES.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Obama is not choosing peace, he already chose war
The decision that is pending is about the level of violence that Obama is going to order the military to unleash on te Afghan people.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Go with the fucking mediawhores..that's all the good you're doing.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Keep your head buried in the ground
The people in Jonestown did the same thing until the end.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. Wash your mouth out with soap.
Wow, what a mouth!!! There's so much profanity on this board. Wow. From such smart and progressive people.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. How do you go day to day without cutting your own throat??//
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. We have been down this path before!
Vietnam was a bipartisan war!
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. I still get sick to my stomach thinking about the million or so vietnamese
that were worked to death or just murdered outright after we left.....

The UN should have maintained a presence there, as they should in Afghanistan against the Taliban....

And I'd just as soon we kill all the worst of the Taliban, anyhow, for what they do to women.

They have no right, women are not cattle or possessions.

But some here don't give a shit about that.


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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. The Karzai narco regime has a dismal record when it comes to women's rights, as bad as Taliban
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Sure they are.
:eyes:
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
28. Obama says no..they say yes. When did CBS become the President?! n/t
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. The Karzai brothers don't need any more help moving Poppy's poppies.
End this illegal and pointless occupation NOW.
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
45. Here we go with the neo cons at the Pentagon trying to force Obama's hand
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 08:11 PM by Thrill
Knew it was going to happen. The same people who leaked the McChrystal report
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