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I am sick of these fucking double-standards in American politics.

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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:08 PM
Original message
I am sick of these fucking double-standards in American politics.
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 06:09 PM by Drunken Irishman
It's fine and dandy to be subtle racists. It's fine and dandy to suggest Pres. Obama and his administration are a bunch of racists. It's fine and dandy to suggest Obama only won because of white guilt. It's fine and dandy for WHITE politicians to accuse the president of being AFRICAN born.

Yet when someone dare suggest racism plays a role in the attacks toward Pres. Obama, all hell breaks loose.

The likes of Mr. Beck and Mr. Limbaugh can call Pres. Obama a racist. They can say his policies are racist. They can say his election has inspired black people to be thuggish but if Pres. Obama ever said the attitude toward him as president was in part due to race, he'd be burned at the stake. Vilified by the blowhard conservative pundits.

So what we've learned is that it's ok to be racist. It's ok to accuse Obama as being a racist. But no one dare call anyone out on the real racism we're seeing.

Bullshit.

Pres. Carter, you are a true American patriot and I commend you for speaking out.

Thank you. Now be prepared to be attacked and slandered by every right-wing whackjob in America. Of course, I'm sure Pres. Carter is used to this by now.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. minorities have the Presidency so they should shut up
that's what i get in all of this.

the bigots always bring up Obama being President to claim there is no racism. the fact is majority of those who ddin't vote for Obama are racists.

but now these fuckers are out trying to claim to be the average working class american. and anytime people bring up their racism they bring up the election . as if they voted for him.

and the stupid whore media just props up all the bs.

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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Right.
Even if 20% of Americans are open racists, that's still a whole helluva lot of people!

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genna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. Surely you saw minority backlash in the 90s take shape and form into the RACE CARD
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
48. The underlying motive
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 04:24 PM by billh58
of the apologists for racism has absolutely nothing to do with denying that a large segment of the redneck-faction of the GOP are racists. It has everything to do with using smoke and mirrors to conceal, camouflage, and legitimize, thinly-disguised racism as acceptable "criticism" of President Obama.

This is not a new tactic by the Rovian neoconservatives, and is the same "strawman" type of argument they used for eight long years, and through two presidential elections. Their claims that "ALL criticism" of President Obama is being labeled as racist is an outright lie, and never identifies exactly "who" is labeling ALL criticism as racism.

The "who" is a non-existent strawman, and the claims of "all criticism" are lies to distract attention from the actual, and rampant racism among the Birthers, Baggers, and Town Hall screamers. Not to mention the religious-right who are "praying" for President Obama's death, or the idiots who bring loaded weapons to events where he appears.

Exacerbating the right-wing lies about "all criticism of President Obama being labeled as racism," are the PUMAs, and other disgruntled anti-Obama "Progressives," who are piling on and claiming that overuse of the racism label is hurting the Democratic Party. That too, is a convenient lie to further their misguided cause. The Democratic Party is NOT overusing the "racist label," it is those who claim it is being overused who are "crying wolf," and who are responsible for the issue being blown out of proportion. No one, and I repeat, NO ONE, is claiming that legitimate, well thought-out, and reasoned criticism of President Obama is racism! That is a right-wing, and PUMA-inspired lie, and a strawman myth.

There ARE racists among the choreographed loud-mouths who appear at astroturf Town Hall meetings. There ARE racists who march with the Baggers. Almost ALL Birthers have racist motives. ALL right-wing hate-groups, and white-supremacist groups are racists, and their numbers are increasing daily. Rep. Joe Wilson, and his staunch defender, Rep. Steve King ARE proven racists, and deserve to be called out as such. Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, and other right-wing media radicals ARE racists and desperately need to be refuted and countered.

Thanks to President Carter, this divisive and repulsive segment of our society is beginning to receive the focused attention it deserves, and I am proud to participate in a venue which also denounces bigotry and racism in ALL of its forms, from ANY identified source.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. The very comment that he was elected because of white guilt is racist
Because they assume that white people really don't believe he is qualified and voted for him on his merits alone.

I love how they say that and then try to pretend it's not racist.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. excellent commentary.
This fight is very important and will not be won quickly. We will be fighting it until Obama's last days in office and beyond.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. That depresses me.
Knowing the next 8 years will be like this. :(
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There will be good days and not so good.
But I hear you. I think progress is inevitable no matter the speed.
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genna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
28. I think it is good news that there is at least one mature Southern gentlemen who is willing
to call the b.s. for what it is.

How long did it take to integrate schools from the Brown case on? 20 years maybe?


How long did after dejure segregation ended take for workplaces to integrate? How many minorities have risen to the top of any of the top 500 corporations or non profits? The government has worked out for minorities, right?


This is more of a grind than anything else. Someone above said there is 20% hardcore racists, but I would say it is a little higher than that. Maybe 30%. However, it beats it being 75 to 85% of the population agreeing that minorities should stay in their 'place.'


At this point, Obama can't even mention the death threats, the racist languages, or personal slurs he receives constantly. He's supposed to take it without complaint. I am THRILLED that Jimmy Carter is independent enough to say it doesn't matter what popular wisdom says race matters here in these people's hearts and in their outward displays.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. You GO, girl!!! I'll see your 30% and raise you another 30
when walking the hallowed halls of "success" and threatening, by your performance, the assumptions of those who claim to be happy to see you.
Ever experienced a long-term loved one come out of that dark, unconscious recess? Talk about DEVASTATING!

My parents sent me to the front lines in 1957. Mom's motto #1: Your education is something NO ONE can take away from you.

Kid Unit at 60, Status: True

Mom's motto #2: It's what's IN your head, not what's ON your head.

Kid Unit, "YOU LIE!!!" Status: FALSE

I never DARED utter that to her aloud! :rofl:

But I digress... CAN YOU EVEN IMAGINE THE VIBES OBAMA IS SUBJECTED TO ON A DAILY BASIS??? It's said 90% of communication is non-verbal and my experience having to do so daily in my third language confirms that to my satisfaction. President Carter hears the dogwhistle so LOUD AND CLEAR, it truly must pain his ears. The man is one of the most DECENT, MENSCHLICH SPIRITS EVER to do his bit to SERVE undeserving Amis.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. President Carter was attacked when he spoke out against human rights violations
He was the President who started the list of countries with human rights violations and the idea that they must be held accountable. It was one of the measures by which we chose to have trade and diplomatic deals with other countries.

Now we're just as bad. But Carter was right.
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mscuedawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. I want to know how Steele goes to sleep at night...
...as a white woman, he's a disgrace. Hope the paycheck is worth it...
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Michael Steel is posing as a white woman? Wow. The things you learn on the DU.
Kidding, but your phrasing is a bit off.

Personally, I just like to counter with "Please educate yourself. Your ignorance is embarrassing the entire human race."

I really should come up with a handy list of all the words (and the corresponding definitions) the insane wing of the Republic party misrepresents at every and any opportunity.
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mscuedawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. A bit off...oh my!!!
Thanks for getting where I was coming from...that was bad! :rofl:
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Ignorance is bliss, so, he sleeps just fine. He is deluded into
Edited on Wed Sep-16-09 06:48 PM by Fire1
thinking he's "in the club." I'd love to be there when he finds out otherwise! LOL!!
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genna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. Maybe I'm wrong but I think Steele does the rest of us a service
It reminds everyone that the stereotype Republicans use to mark black progress is embodied in Steele, Clarence Thomas, and every other nimble kneed person of color they can put in front of the camera.

The rest of us know we aren't anything like this jerk off or the others they parade in front of us as evidence of their inclusiveness. Even if you don't agree with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or Maxine Waters, you would never believably suggest that any of these people have others pulling their strings. They say what they think.


Maybe Steele BELIEVES this crap, but when the Republican talking points come out and he has stated verbatim what he's been told to say, you can't say he is saying what his own mind told him to think.

His public disgrace is worth every moment of embarrassment I feel as a black woman. We are not homogeneous. He proves it daily.
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mscuedawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Well said Genna...thank you for your words!
:hug:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. right on, drunken irishman
:toast: i am sick of this shit too. i expect it from the rw assholes, but not from so-called democrats.
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. Agreed. Obama's election was the stick that poked the beehive of racism
and all the racist bees are going haywire.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
44. Actually, more like a giant, festering, malignant cyst popping
and releasing malodorous pus hither, thither and yon.
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Indigent Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. Carter did more than suggest racism plays a role
He says it represents an overwhelming portion of the opposition.
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Empowerer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. No - that's not what he said.
"I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's African American."

President Carter did NOT say that an overwhelming portion of the opposition is based on racism - unless you're claiming that all of the opposition to President Obama is "intensely demonstrated animosity." He said an overwhelming portion of the most extreme segment of the opposition is based on racism. Those are two very different things.

It's not surprising that you believe that since that is how the media has been mischaracterizing his comment.

But before repeating the lie, you should go to the source and look at what he actually said.
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Indigent Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. The OP made Carter's statement seem milder
OP says: "when someone dare suggest racism plays a role in the attacks toward Pres. Obama, all hell breaks loose."

But Carter told us that an overwhelming portion of the animosity, which is the same as "attacks" (not just some) stems from racism.
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Empowerer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
53. If you believe that every criticism of Obama can be defined as "intensely demonstrated animosity"
I guess that would make sense. However, that's an extremely distorted view that I think is unsupportable by the facts.
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justgamma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Sunday "news" shows will all be asking
every Dem if they agree with Carter. They will all have to say no. I would love it if they would ask every puke if they agreed with Beck or Limpballs, but, alas, that won't happen.

The Dems will be made responsible for everything any Dem anywhere ever said. SOP
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-16-09 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. You have to "think yourself into their mindset."
Hitting yourself in the head with a brick a few times helps. They denied the existence of racism until Obama got elected, at which time they started howling about black racism. Righties aren't racists, 'cause they like Alan Keyes and Walter Williams and Clarence Thomas alright. The "logic" is something like that.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
18. If you think it's just the likes of Limbaugh and Beck saying this, think again
Some "Dems" on this very board have alleged that Obama only won because of "white liberal guilt."
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Oh I know they have.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. There's almost as many racists on the left as on the right.
For different reasons of course, but still ...
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #32
43. They're just so MUCH BETTER edjumacated
in stealth tactics. Quite different from those who, when confronted with the manifestation of the lizard brain, STOP, LOOK and LISTEN.
I maintain that they are few, far and in between.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
19. Standard corporate puke operating procedure is to slander the opposition with your own sins
It's truly disgusting, and seemingly truly effective :puke:
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majority Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. we have
to mae usa more progressives
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
21. Astonishing, isn't it. But if it swims, quacks and looks like a duck, then it's a duck. What
amazes me is the number of apologists there are that go around screaming race card. I will always admire a person (Jimmy Carter) who calls it like it is.
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Lilyeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. I agree. But what bothers me even more is when I see people on DU say it.
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. Me too! nt
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Lilyeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
23. I agree Irishman.
Glenn Beck was crying about people calling him a racist, after he said the President hated white people. Then I had MSNBC on as background noise and I heard that moron Mika talk about how horrible it was that people were pulling the race card. I got up to turn that garbage off as fast as I could. I rarely watch Morning Joe, so I see why people can't stand that show.
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genna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
25. But you have to admit it is good FINALLY for one man to say PUBLICLY RACIST
even if the shit storm flies all around him and scared Democrats who refuse to be first in anything for Republican backlash castigate him for it.

I know what the media tells me about Carter's faults, but I still think he was brilliant. He might have been more conservative than Teddy Kennedy but at least he wasn't Bill Clinton (who I thought was great after Reagan and Bush).

I like him because he is a truth teller especially when it is an unpopular truth.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. I have always had a great deal of respect for President Carter.
He always speaks the truth even when it's not popular to do so.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
30. Well some of us are more used to double standards than others
For example, the candidate Obama used well known gay baiting evangelicals to speak on his campaign, and there were occasions of open hate speech against gay people by a man famous for declaring war on gay people and accusing us of 'trying to kill children'. Ok? That level of hate speech.
When the GLBT community complained about that invective hurling minister, Obama said that lots of people agree with that minister, and that those people are "good, decent and moral people." He went on to castigate the gay community for criticizing hate speakers, saying such good people will always have his ear. Many of DU's most ardent Obama supporters back then agreed with Obama, supported that minister, and all the other homophobic bigots on Obama's tour.
And yet when the standard is on the other foot, it is somehow doubled! Into 'righteous' indignation. Instead of "good decent and moral people" suddenly bigots are being called bigots, as they should have been when bigots trashed millions of Americans under the Obama banner.

It is amazing to me that 'Christians' such as Obama do not practice the Golden Rule, nor understand that we reap what we sew. They used and supported hate speech to get elected. Interesting that the anti-gay rallies Obama threw were in South Carolina. Home of Addison Wilson, the liarshouter. Also home of Donnie's diatribe against millions of Americans under an Obama banner.
It just is what it is. But folks who start fires should not complain when they get burned.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Very true! n/t
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
40.  great post!
:o
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. Notice that no one wants to talk about that double standard.
It might inspire poutrage, I guess. Or a lack of ponies. Or something.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. LGBT supporters of
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 08:56 PM by billh58
candidate Obama held up their end of the bargain:

http://pride.barackobama.com/page/content/lgbthome

Just as the Civil Rights movement for racial equality of the 1960s was not successful overnight, neither will the LGBT Civil Rights battle for gay equality be won immediately. President Obama has made some progress with this recent proclamation:

http://www.365gay.com/blog/obama-issues-lgbt-pride-stat... /

President Obama has always maintained that he does not support same-sex "marriage" (which is unfortunate) so he can not be fairly faulted for "lying" about his positions. He does, however strongly support equality for the LGBT community, and is attempting to reconcile these two opposing positions:

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/05/07/Obam... /

(Full NYT article): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/07/us/politics/07obama.h...

ALL fair-minded Americans must keep up the fight against racism, sexism, and bigotry in whatever forms it may take. We must also keep pressure on our elected representatives (and NOT just President Obama) to address equality for ALL Americans. The day is rapidly approaching when our brothers and sisters of the LGBT movement will have the full equality and respect demanded by the Constitution of these United States of America. It is inevitable.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
34. A guy can go on CNN and call him an Indonesian muslim (as if that's an insult to begin with) and a
welfare thug (I'm pretty sure that one's an insult). Then gets invited to other shows. But Mike Malloy's microphone gets cut off for saying "Bush Crime Family" on Fox.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Fancy that!
;-)
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. They only hate him because he's a Democrat...
didn't you get the memo? :eyes:
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. I know..... I think one of these days it's just gonna happen. I think one of the pukes is going to
call him "boy". They'll get away with it too.
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. At least one of them already did:
From 2008:

U.S. Rep. Geoff Davis, a Hebron Republican, compared Obama and his message for change similar to a "snake oil salesman" .

He said in his remarks at the GOP dinner that he also recently participated in a "highly classified, national security simulation" with Obama.

"I'm going to tell you something: That boy's finger does not need to be on the button," Davis said. "He could not make a decision in that simulation that related to a nuclear threat to this country."

http://digg.com/d3PfmT

He apologized, but still... :wtf:
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Shit, I completely forgot about that one. OK I stand corrected. nt
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. OMG
I've seen the sentiment that some of them will start to lose it and their true feelings will come out. Already starting!
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
35. K n R
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
47. K&R n/t
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
50. Carter is a great man and a fine human being...
and a great American Patriot. He is also 100 percent accurate when he speaks out on this matter.
I also think the tea-baggers are a big bunch of racist and sore losers.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
51. Hear hear my fellow drunken Irish friend!
:toast: ;)
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
52. I guess the people who ...
Palin was talking about, who weren't real Americans were black Americans. They have been doing this throughout the campaign to see how far they can go with it their racism.

They want President Obama to answer for every racial incident for every movie star,athlete,celebrity or anyone who is black.

Did any of the white presidents have to answer for everything white celebrities,movie stars,athlete or or anyone who is white, did or did not do?
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
56. Well said, Drunken Irishman.
Thanks for the thread. :thumbsup:
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:21 PM
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57. Hear hear! nt
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
58. These are the sorts of things Dems should push back on & push back hard...
republicans are far easier to flush out than they think; it won't be but a heart beat and their hate radio meters will explode off the wall. This is all the same bullshit low-rent game of political gamesmanship they played tying up Clinton for eight years haranguing everything Dem right up to 9/11, republicans are doing it again playing the largest, deadliest game of 'watch the birdie' and they need to be called on it cause it's destroying the nation and they don't fucking give a shit
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
59. Amen Drunken Irishman.....n/t
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 01:10 AM
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60. thanks
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
61. Big Kick an Rec... n/t
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