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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:39 PM
Original message
Huff Post: If The Economy Lost 247,000 Jobs, How Did The Unemployment Rate Go Down?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/07/if-the-economy...

First Posted: 08- 7-09 06:05 PM | Updated: 08- 7-09 06:31 PM

Arthur Delaney



The government reported Friday morning that the unemployment rate declined one-tenth of a percentage point to 9.4 percent after the economy shed 247,000 jobs in July. But if that many people lost their jobs, how could the unemployment rate go down instead of up?

The answer is that size of the labor force shrank by over 400,000 people. In June, the Labor Department estimated there were 154.9 million workers in the civilian labor force. In July, that number shrank to 154.5 million.

When the labor force shrinks even more rapidly than the job market, the unemployment rate goes down.

So why did the labor force shrink so fast? Well, maybe it didn't. "These numbers are somewhat erratic," said Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy research, in an interview with the Huffington Post. The Labor Department makes its estimate based on a survey of 60,000 households.

Baker said that if the labor force consistently shrinks in a big way over the course of several months, that's something to be worried about. But so far it hasn't; the average size of the labor force actually increased from the first to the second quarter this year.

If the labor force contraction does turn into a trend, Heidi Shierholz of the Economic Policy Institute said it could indicate that people were giving up on looking for jobs entirely. And she pointed out that the government's data on labor market flows shows a substantial increase in the number of unemployed people who abandoned the labor force last month.

"That entirely explains the decline," Shierholz told the Huffington Post. "When you see a decline in the labor force in a market as crappy as this one, the bulk of what's happened is people are looking around saying, 'I've knocked on every door ten times. I'm just not looking anymore until things get better.'"

All of which means that there is nothing really to celebrate in the unemployment rate going down. The cold reality is that another quarter million jobs were lost.

And yet, that isn't entirely bad news. The 247,000-job-drop represents the smallest monthly loss in a year, meaning employers are beginning to ease up on layoffs.

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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. When your unemployment benefits run out
so you no longer waste your time filing, you are suddenly no longer unemployed. You still don't have a job but you're not "unemployed".
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. The same was true last mo., when there were half a million job losses.
It's a comparative number. That's the main point of it.

People were expecting the number of losses to be greater, or at best, the same. But the losses had gone in the opposite direction for the first time in a year. That is not a huge cause for celebration, but it does show a definite change in direction.

That is objective info. It's not subjective. It is good news. Not great, but the first good news in job losses we've had in many months.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Why don't you just continue with your negative thread from yesterday?:
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why don't you try responding to the content of the article?
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 02:49 PM by brentspeak
You're not capable of doing so. Like a frustrated and disturbed toddler who throws a tantrum when confronted with a problem they don't know how to solve, you throw poo.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I DID respond to your BS thread YESTERDAY and you never replied. I linked to it.
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 02:52 PM by jenmito
Answer that first.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Then why was Obama quoted thus:
"The worst may be behind us. Today, we're pointed in the right direction."

If the White House admitted that unemployment will hit double-digits, how can he say "the worst may be behind us"?
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Unemployment is a lagging indicator. Funny how in your other thread you
didn't address the FACT that everyone in the admin. was saying the economy is still bad, unemployment will still hit double digits, and they aren't popping any champagne corks. Keep up the negative threads filled with false info., though! :thumbsup: :eyes:
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Unemployment is not a lagging indicator in a service economy
You're about 20-years too late in using the expression "unemployment is a lagging indicator".

Debt in a consumer-based, service economy = whatever little money people can grab a hold of goes immediately to pay off the banks. http://seekingalpha.com/article/141937-unemployment-as-...
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Why didn't you address the replies on your thread yesterday?:
My response to your OP:

"I guess you missed everyone from the admin., including Obama himself, speaking today about how
unemployment is still going to hit double digits, how weak the economy still is, and how today's numbers just show the economy is getting worse less quickly which is a good sign but nothing to "pop the champagne" over. You should really know what you're talking about before shooting off another negative thread just for the sake of shooting off another negative thread."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. It's neither coincident nor leading. It has to be lumped somewhere.
Let me put it this way: if unemployment was a leading indicator, neither an expansion nor a contraction would ever stop. Unemployment is driven by changes in demand. Unemployment only becomes a leading indicator of demand if the changes in unemployment are so large so as to hurt aggregate demand. At the rate of July and the likely rates of August and September, the job losses will not be substantial enough to undercut aggregate demand. We will likely lose only at most a percent of payrolls for the rest of the year instead of the 5% of payrolls we lost in seven months earlier.

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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. You're right, with todays technology, they can get numbers realtime
But of course, that would not allow them to manipulate the data by using antiquated methods that they still use.

The Government numbers are fake, massaged, tweaked, altered, adulterated, falsified, you name it, they do it.

It's really surprising that they have not enhanced reporting of this critical aspect of the internals of our economy if they didn't have a very good reason for not doing so.

All they needed to do was open up a website where all interested households would report in voluntarily, but you'll never see that because it would actually reveal too much, and they'd have to do something about it.

This way, they can issue Propaganda like "Green Shoots", "Job Data causes Market Rally", and other such motivational talking point that get regurgitated by people around the water cooler, setting the tone of the day.

They count on the sheep being too busy, too tired, and too lazy to actually look at the real indicators elsewhere.

At this point, you can see it on the streets, the economy is fucked. We are doing our own research, and with the last set of data, people are hurting big time. The Third Wave is definately coming, and this happy talk is meant to dampen the perception of it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thanks for that post. I'm sure the OP won't see it as he probably moved on to his NEXT negative/BS
thread.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Unemployment has increased 5 percentage points. If it will only increase one more, the worst is
behind us. It's a very simple concept really.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. The first reply answered your question. Some people stopped looking for work so they're no longer
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 02:59 PM by jenmito
counted in the "unemployed" number. That could account for it. Question answered even though you never respond to any posts on your negative threads. :eyes:
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. that first reply is wrong
If you stop looking for work, then you are no longer considered unemployed, but that is not the same thing as having your benefits run out. That doesn't stop that canard from being repeated.
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GodlyDemocrat Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. Who cares about discouraged workers? They're a bunch of deadbeats anyways
:eyes:
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. Good post. I like knowing the details of the numbers waved around by our government.
The devil is frequently found residing there.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. this is way we have always counted the unemployed
one reason is how else do you figure it? Do you want to pay an army of government workers to go out and find each and every person who is unemployed and who is genuinely looking for work each month? I don't. I want a number that is reliable and relatively easy to obtain.

It might not be entirely accurate (and has NEVER pretended to be) but it gives an idea of where the number is relative to where it was at any other point in time.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Your Army may have been needed about 30 years ago, but there is this thing called the Internets
People actually use it to do real work from places all over the country!

Why employ an army of Government workers when the unemployed can enter the data directly into a computer for analysis and review?

Nothing like maintaining and obsolete, unreliable method of collecting data as long as it gived wiggle room of about a mile on each side of the centerline.

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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Huh?
would you be willing to rely on a volunteer reporting system? Just tell Americans, half of whom won't even vote, to just go find a computer (if they are unemployed they might not have one) and report that they are unemployed?

You say the data entered into the computer is "for analysis and review". Who does that? Is the information verified in any way?

Unemployment benefits are subject to random audits to determine ongoing eligibility. There is some measure of reliability that those people are able and available for work and looking for work, and are not working while claiming benefits. It is a highly automated system now. You might be shocked to know just how automated the process is already or how much information we actually gather. Big brother is already bigger than you think. (If you file a claim for unemployment benefits the computer automatically checks the social security computer system to verify your social security number and automatically checks the data filed by every employer in the country to verify wages. It also checks that same data throughout your claim to make sure you don't start a new job.)

Maybe we could set up a computer system that tracks everyone all the time to see what they are doing but frankly, if I'm not getting money from the government or my past employer, that is no one's business. It already freaks me in some ways to know how connected the unemployment and welfare offices in this country are. Most benefits are paid on a debit card so I can tell not only how much we paid you but exactly where you spent every penny of it. I also have access to your driving record, your full employment record, your social security record, we cross match with the tax commission and workers' compensation, I know the physical location where every employee in the state works, what property they own, etc. etc. etc.)




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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. It would be better than the broken system that we have now
In case you havenet been paying attention, during the bush years, we were get "Adjustments" of up to 200,000 added jobs for the previous months so called data.

How about they pay me a penny for every adjustment they make, and you get the picture in a way even you can see it.

Don't give me this it can't be done on the Internet BS. They can and do write secure applications for the web you know.

And what's wrong with voluntary? You have very little faith in your fellow man.

Don't lecture me on audits of individuals. Thats a given. Microsoft has made millions with the California EDD upgrading their systems -- decades ago.

You don't seem to mind posting here on DU, but I'm afraid to fuel your paranoia, but you are track here coming and going by the collection devices set up all over the country which is sent to the NSA for analysis.

All it takes is the will to set the parameters, and all on DU are captured, categorized and recorded for posterity. You are in the cloud, and their are great beasts that feed on every packet without your knowledge. You really think it's that hard to capture data when you own the candystore?





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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. Tabloid HuffPOO strikes the usual tone...useless online rag
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. That person obviously has no clue about economic data, but Krugman does

Jobs paradox?

Some readers have asked how its possible for unemployment to fall when the economy is still losing jobs, albeit at a slower rate. The answer is a bit annoying.

First, the jobs number and the unemployment number are based on different surveys a survey of establishments in the first case, a survey of households in the second. Sometimes employment rises by one measure while falling by the other, although it happens that this month there isnt much difference in the jobs number. (The establishment survey is considered a more reliable measure of month-to-month job changes.)

Second, how do we measure unemployment? Contrary to what some correspondents think, it doesnt have anything to do with receipt of unemployment insurance. It comes, instead, from a survey in which people are asked whether theyre working and, if not, whether theyre looking for work. And what this months data show is a relatively large rise in the number of people not in labor force neither working nor looking for work. Thats how the unemployment rate can fall even with fewer people working.

Isnt U6, the broadest measure of unemployment, supposed to include people who are discouraged and stop looking? Yes but at least according to the survey, thats not the reason more people have dropped out of the work force.

Basically, though, what you need to bear in mind is that these are imperfect measures, subject to a fair bit of noise. When the trend in the labor market is very strong in either direction, the measures move together. But when you have the kind of scene we have now the employment situation is drifting down, but not plunging occasional mixed signals are likely. No big deal.

The basic story is that things are sort of stabilizing but theyre definitely not improving yet.



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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Krugman is informative as always. Thanks. nt.
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. Brents pushing the right-wing line about this. Which isn't surprising.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
65. Convenient and primitive, score that one a double for our still effed up government
That seems to be the funny thing they do with many other statistics as well. In a world where we understand global warming changing rainfall patterns we still call witch-doctors out to produce rain.

One need not be cynical, our government does that for us :shrug:
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holiday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. erin burnett on msnbc said its b/c
one is measured by company expectations, one is measured by actual workers expectations
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. Huffington Post is kinda turning to shit lately...
as are many, 'liberal' blogs. I'd like to see the whining liberals do President Obama's job. Or shut the fuck up and get off their asses and DO something to change the world. Sitting on your ass and bitching on the internets doesn't count. :eyes:
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I'd like to see the President tell the truth about the situation
:shrug:

BTW those whiny liberals are the people that got him into the big dawg chair during the primaries.

The President is a big boy, I think a few "whiny liberals" asking him to tell the truth and set reasonable expectations on the economy pale in comparison to other parts of his job.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. I'm sure you could do Obama's job.. Just listen to your masters
And speak what they write for you.

People would probably be upset with you too, but hey, at least your doing his Job.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Do you believe that you could do Obama's job too? Or
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 05:42 PM by ProSense
are you implying that the person you're responding to is smarter than you?

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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. Anyone can be a masthead to a big Organization, yes, I do.
But I would most likely be shot very quickly for standing up to the hidden government.

Bill Clinton admitted this himself.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. ist not the percentage thats important, its the acceleration of loss
which has slowed.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Eventually a crashing car/train comes to a stop
now the question is how do you get it up and running again

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. by driving GDP
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 04:57 PM by mkultra
which decrease 1% in the second quarter. As many of us here like to say, employment is a lagging indicator. Once business start to grow again, they will start to hire.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. They are hiring in China!
With that said, China is also buying up resources too. America will be hard pressed to increase manufacturing if there is no Iron, Steel, Chromium, Copper, Zinc, or tin, to make stuff with.

Frankly, when you say Business, I'd like to get an idea of what kind of "Business" will employ the unemployed?



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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. B-I-N-G-O nt
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. "America will be hard pressed to increase manufacturing if there is no Iron..."
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 10:13 PM by ProSense
On Monday, a report from the Institute for Supply Management, a trade group of purchasing executives, signaled U.S. manufacturing activity should increase next month for the first time since January 2008 as industrial companies restock shelves. Also, the Commerce Department said construction spending rose rather than fell in June as analysts had expected. The reports and rising commodity prices lifted energy and material stocks.

link




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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. yes, we all fear china
but will still out manufacture them everyday. To answer your question "what kind of "Business" will employ the unemployed?"
Seems like a silly question. That's who businesses hire is people looking for work.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Actually, I admire China.
There is something to be sad where they can keep at least a little bit of their History maintained in the way it was built thousands of years ago, considering all the turmoil they have been through.

I think they were very smart withdrawing from the clutches of Western Culture for as long as they did, but alas, they are falling into the same trap as western society in regards to an unsustatinable future.

China is an amazing culture, and an even shrewder political superpower.

America is all Hollywood and freshly painted facades.

"Out manufacture them every day", sure thing, "Good luck with that". I won't even bother you by asking what that product is, because I know it will embarrass you.

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. well, i was being sarcastic about being afraid of them
Im not. In the end, they will always seek to work with us.

And yes, you may be unaware of the reality you live in but our manufacturing output is higher than that of china by almost double. The only reason people talk about china in terms of manufacturing is because they have managed to grow so fast.

We are, as we have been for some time, the number one manufacturer of durable goods in the world. Your stupidity in this regard doesn't embarrass me at all. If i where you, i would do some research before you challenge people on well know facts.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Please illustrate our major Durable goods.
Are you implying the all the LG Refrigerators, Washers and Dryers are manufactured in the US?

Please, indulge my ignorance of the major brands of Durable goods that people actually would consider buying these days.

Boeing Jets? Smart Bombs? Automobiles? Steel? Submarines?

Your response reinforces my statement that you would only embarass yourself if you chose to illustrate how we "Outmanufacture" the world. Such hogwash.

They can't even build the F-22 without making it into a flying version of the Homer. And add insult to injury, they can't even sell it to other countries, while the Soviets sell SU-27', and SU-30 like they are going out of style, and because they can actually fly.

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. i see, you want me to name the products
because you don't think we still make any.

Well ill start by showing the 2007 stats, since i don't have the 2008 numbers, which show the total manufacturing output of the United states was 1.8 trillion Dollars putting us in the number one slot right above your favorite, china, which creates goods worth 1.1 trillion.

I'm assuming you want me to name some us products so you can bust on them as if no one still buys them, such as American cars, but the truth is that we still have several companies that either assemble or produce excellent products. Ill also leave out the gasoline producers because im sure you can find a way to somehow discount the product they make as not a product or so such stupidity.

Lets see, we could start with machinery:
Caterpillar
Deere
Xerox
National Oilwell
Parker Hannifin
Baker Hughes
ITT
Terex
AG Colorado
Dover
Foster Wheeler
Black and Decker
SPX
Cameron Int
FMC
Manitowoc
Flowserve
Joy Global
Pentair
Briggs and Stratton
Toro


Auto parts:
Johnson
Delphi
TRW
Cummins
Lear
Borg
Hayes
American Axel

Metals:
Alcoa
US Steel
Nucur
Reliance steel
Steel Dynamics
General Cable

Chemicals:
P&G
Dow
Dupont
3M


Aerospace:
Boeing
United tech
Lockheed Martin
Northrop grumman
Goodrich

FYI, when it comes to selling jets. We just don't do it for security reasons. We do sell older equipment to our allies and the russians will sell anything to anyone.

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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. All related to supporting the Military Industrial Complex.
Thanks for showing us where your head is at.

Nice list, I'll have to walk through it and see whether these guys affect the lives of the average consumer, who supposedly drives 70% of the economy, and where most of their labor is situated for their particular Multinational markets.

I'll be honest, I won't be buying and Jet's, Caterpillar Tractors (not new anyway), or Agricultural or Industrial Chemicals. I may need a part for my old truck in a few years, I could possibly be in the market for a 150 foot of 5/8 inch winch cable. I wouldn't buy a chinese made Briggs and Stratton ever again, since that's where they make them these days. Toro, uses Chinese Briggs motors, and they are all for show.

While your list is impressive on the surface, it really does not account for the basics. If you think Caterpiller is going to get a boom soon, I think you are mistaken. The building boom is over, there are literallyl 10,s of thousands of unused Heavy equipment sitting idle, and being sold for pennies on the dollar.

Not even a single manufacturer of innovative, thermoelectric refrigerators, Solar Panela or washing machines... Thats a pretty sad list.






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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. lol
Edited on Mon Aug-10-09 10:26 PM by mkultra
now whose embarrassing themselves. Your like a birther, no matter how much evidence you see, you still manage to "hold on to your ideals." Everyone knows that only a few of those companies have military related products. Nice how you added the word "industrial" before the word chemical to make it look like you don't use them. So if your now reducing your parameters down to "retail consumer" goods then perhaps you should go to each of these manufacturers web sites and check out the variety of both B2B and consumer goods they make.

The depth of your ignorance is astounding. And btw, whirlpool makes appliances in America.

So since your list is ever changing, perhaps you should take your current bullshit list of all important goods "thermoelectric refrigerators, solar panels and washing machines" and check out the list of Americas top manufacturers. All im saying is you need to expend some of your own energy on your own education.

Internet, read a book, take a class. Try one. nice try dipshit.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. You'd like to think that Caterpiller is the only one that makes heavy equipment
But that would be about par for the course. Admiral also makes Maytag, Jenn-air, and a whole slew of others. That doesn't matter, because nobody buys those individually branded, yet identical units.

Of course, you've never taken apart any of these devices and see that they are full of parts imported from overseas.

Your need to resort to namecalling because I point out salient facts that show how ridiculous your major assertions is quite humorous.

You call me a "Birther" out of thin air. You call me Anti Obama because I don't like his cozy relationship with the DLC Hillbilly Corporate Club, which has hijacked his campaign promises, and you somehow think that manufacturing heavy industrial products with artificially low priced imported steel is sustainable.

All of your industries you list are interconnected and reliant upon on another in some fashion. There are very few that could stand on their own without the enormous subsides provided by the bottomless pit of Monopoly Money thrown at the Military, and you know it. You also fail to connect that they are all part of the same economic system that relies on printing money out of thin air, forcing ever increasing growth and consumption, when resource extraction is nearing the end. Seeing your reaction to this fact, I can see why you would be upset.

I really don't care about what you think. You have provided absolutely nothing to convince me that all of these Propaganda messages regarding "The Worst is Over" is nothing but a way to cushion the blow for the next big crash in commercial real estate. The Propaganda floodgates have been opened for "Good News" for those compulsively trained to believe in the fraud like yourself.

Have fun! I wish you the best of luck. Most of, be happy with your position.



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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. again, your lying wholesale
as a matter of fact, i have taken those items apart and replaced parts on my own. And every part i put in was made in America. There is a whirlpool factory right down the road from my work as well as a caterpillar plant on the way in.

Your like a birther because your search for evidence of preconceived notion instead of theory to explain fact. You bring no evidence for your claims and make some pretty big whoppers.

In essence, your selling your own brand of propoganda based on alarmism and panic. face it. Your a demagogue.

essentially, your mind is rotted in your skull.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. I'm surprised at you, brentspeak. You're usually so positive and supportive
of democrats. :rofl:
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. wow, such boldness of tounge. such truth
Edited on Sun Aug-09-09 06:44 PM by mkultra
me thinks brentspeak doth complain too much.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
59. such a change in character indeed.
:hi:
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
25. Because of the way it is counted. People are asked if they are actively looking for another job.
If they answer NO, they do not count. It is a problem that is well known.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Discouraged workers are counted under U-4 unemployment.
This is not that different from the headline number. 9.8% versus 9.4%. Also, the size of the civilian labor force does change over time. Because it shrinks in recessions unemployment seems to be understated as people drop out of the labor force, however I don't hear many say it is overstated in booms because the growing economy draws more into the labor force that previously had not considered working.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. It's most likely they've come to the realization that the American way is a fraud.
Based on Media Manipulation and Propaganda.

Maybe they are tired of watching Trillions of dollars go into Nuclear Subs, Missile Frigates, and Fighter Planes that are obsolete before they are ever used.

Maybe they've asked to see an accounting of how their income tax is apportioned equally among the states.

Maybe they realize that as soon as you work for someone else, the Government takes a piece, which you can only recover if you send them a 1040 telling them exactly how the money they allowed you to keep worked for you.

Maybe they realize that if you file a Fedral Tax return, you are on the hook to file a State Return in most cases.

Maybe they realize that we are taxed on Gross wages, and not on net profits after expenses like Corporations.

Maybe they realize that the Government allowed a system based on the automobile to flourish, and now there are few viable mass transit options

Maybe they are tired of GMO food remaining unlabeled in our food supply, and have decided to start growing their own.

Maybe they are exhausted from malnutrition due to our unsustainable form of Big Ag, and just want to rest a while.

Maybe they see the same Policies in Government despite the supposed differences in the Political parties.

Maybe they are tired of being manipulated into supporting a candidate, only to see him sell out to the Status quo when it's all said and done.

Maybe they are fed up that they are subjected to one set of laws, while the governing class has their own set of laws.

Maybe they are tired of a job that produces nothing of tangible value, yet take over 40 hours a week of their precious life.

Maybe they are tired of supporting the Corporations that feed off their diminished earnings every chance they can get.

Maybe they realize that they are too distracted and busy to prepare for the oncoming collapse.

Maybe they want to spend time with the wife and kids.

Maybe the TV, Media and other distractions are losing their luster, and a good book is more rewarding.

Maybe they realize that the Government does not look out for their best interests.

Maybe they realize they are supporting the same system that is feasting upon them and have decided to starve it.

Maybe they realize that an MP3 player or a TV is not a necessity of life.

Maybe they realize that they are not happy, despite all the possessions they have.

Maybe, they're are more and more people like me that have abandoned the Rat Race and debt slavery and now focus on asking why things are the way they are.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Unfortunately, it's not possible to rec a single post
Otherwise, I'd be rec'ing yours.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Thanks for the comment but it's more important getting the message out there for people to review
People need to make up their own minds regarding what type of consciousness they create for themselves. It is not up to me to convince anyone to change their ways, take responsibility for their own freedoms, or learn to see through the skillfully created fog that is foisted upon us every day.

I spent a great part of my life doing so many things that my resume is 10 pages long. One of them was for the military in the Reagan years, where I learned a great many things, that I still cannot talk about to this day. After my separation, I was totally discarded by them, and all the training in analysis I received was useless in the job market until the PC arrived on the scene, and I taught myself Software Engineering.

After many years of self centered, sorrow for myself, I decided to just take responsibility for my life, and began a 25 year career in the IT industry. When that livliehood utterly collapsed, followed by the Enron fraud, my eyes opened up to the fragile nature of our Society. It wasn't until I took a survey of how little man actually produces in return for a wage, and how dependent we are to be prodded into consuming the garbage they foist upon us, that I started taking a close look at society, history, and the mechanisms that manipulate all of us daily. I was just as stuck in the rat race, and as taken in by the fraud as everyone else back then.

Then, after I lost my first beautiful farm to bankruptcy, I started questioning everything.. The same sort of behavior that Edward Bernays once said, would cripple commerce and Capitalism if everyone took the time to research the best products or services independantly. At first, it Was hard. Simple purchases became ordeals, especially if one wishes to remain bound by ethics or real measures of value. He was right, choosing what to buy becomes a real challenge, and it delays impulse buying dramatically, allowing you to finally figure out that you really didn't need it in the first place, or to find a better bargain the next week. However, sticking to this philosophy of not buying the hype, one starts to ask real questions regarding our lives. One begins looking at items with the question, "How the hell did they make this back in 1920?" I started going to junkyards and looking at the 1,000's of different ways the Corporations contrived to build an alternator, fuel pump, or ignition system. I highly suggest a day outing to a 20 acre pick and pull, with a few tools, and just dismantle stuff and see how it works. You'll see what a god damned mess has been created in our lives through unecessary distraction and planned inoperability.

One begins to see the recurring patterns in the status quo. When one see's the patterns, you are drawn back to particular event in history and look at the broader picutre of the social climate of the day, and this changes everything as opposed to what we are taught in school and history books. You also see the subtle pushes into certain mass behavior, such as the Housing Bubble coupled with loose credit. They knew exactly what they were doing, and it was done to keep attention off the War, while at the same time paying for it on the backs of the people suckered into the Housing Bubble. My bankruptcy allowed me to cleanly separate from the Rat Race, and I have spent all the time I have on my personal development and education. It paid off immensely, and my real message here is that people can live quite comfortably without working in the rat race. You only need to trade working for someone else for working for Yourself. You will need to do some physical labor, and use your mind in creative ways, but it is doable, and most surprisingly, very enjoyable. At this point in my life, I can choose to blog and let other conscious being know of my personal experiences, observation, and wisdom gained over the several decades, or I can go out and pick a fresh banana and sit under the canopy. I can decide to go mow a few acres, and then be forced inside due to rain, and then sharpen tools or tinker. I hardly used mechanical equipment anymore, since I like to hear branches falling or the birds singing, or a pack of wild pigs squealing nearby.

I truly believe that we are purposefully led to be separate from nature, simply because it provides so many demonstrations of the power of man. We are taught all about heredity, and science uses it as a scapegoat for avoiding the spiritual truth of life in general. To them, we are nothing more than machines, all responding identically to the same set of stimulus, and reinforced in our beliefs by following a herd mentality of compulsive obedience to a higher authority than our pitiful, weak selves. This couldn't be further from the truth. Every organism on earth is capable of miracles, and those miracles are based on the Physical laws of nature, atoms and the Universe.

I am now a Farmer. I observe nature closely, and it truly is in trouble. We have altered the enviroment so drastically, that only the unconscious are not able to comprehend it. We have taken so much from the land, that we no longer have any real fertile soil left, and the Organic farmers struggle to rebuild what has been taken away by forty year of exporting the produce to cities hundred of miles away. The ocens in Hawaii are nearly depleted of Fish, and the Coral is bleaching and diseased in many places.

While Monsanto would like you to believe that N-P-K is all that's necessary for plants to thrive, they fail to mention that they are only the components that enable it to build a robust framework and flower and produce. What's missing are the micronutrients that normally are returned to the earth as the seeds fll to the ground, or the fruit is consumed and dispersed by animals.

Our system takes all of this, ships it off to some distant city, where it is consumed, excreted, mised with potable drinking water, flushed into pipes with toxic chemicals, industrial pollutants, heavy metals, to a central plant where bacteria consume the nutrients, are then killed, and then the result is sent ot be spread on land in Texas.

There is so much wrong with our system that we are unable to see because it is hidden in plain sight, and people are too lazy to ask Why, or What happens to this shit, or How did they do it in the old days.

For some reason, I remembered a day in my childhood several decades ago. It was about the Milkman delivering milk to our house. It got me to thinking, how many armies of milkmen were there, driving how many squadrons of milk delivery trucks from the central milk facility? I remembered the quality of the un homogenized (emulsified) milk and it's great taste. I rememebr that is would spoil in about a week if you were not careful.

I compare it to today. Gallons of milk that has an incredible shelf life, and in many cases, repasteurized after transit of several days across country. Never mind the dead remains of the Bacteria that were feasting on it during the trip. We truly have lost a lot over the years.

The staus quo is depending on people having short memories to continue this unsustainable path. All people have to do is pull one weed, or plant one tree to make a difference on earth.







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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
41. My son was one of these 247,000. He got another job.
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 10:20 PM by Hansel
Seriously though, do these people know anything about statistical analysis?
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. "do these people know anything about statistical analysis?" - No...
This has been another episode of Simple Answers To Simple Questions.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. Yup. n/t
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. Yep,
I was laid off June 30th, started a new job July 27th.
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. magic?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
51. Many in the automotive industry are back to work now.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
52. wow, this is a really boring thread
.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
56. you need a kleenex brent?
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
57. These types of estimates are not an exact science. You should look at the trends...
which mostly look positive from the past few months. The rate of loss of jobs is clearly declining. Many were predicting >10% unemployment by now. Lots of good news out there. IMO, it is remarkable how quickly things have begun to turn around even before much of the stimulus has been spent.
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Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
58. When the benefits expire and you stop looking.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
62. When did Murdock buy HuffPo?
Seriously! This is the fourth or fifth article to be linked here today that made me go, WTF??


The last sentence in that piece is all that matters at this point.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-11-09 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
66. Are you and Better Believe It the same person posting under different names?
Seriously, neither of you idiots have even one positive thing to say.
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