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Do Jews Or Anyone Find The Trivialization Of The Nazis and The Holocaust Insulting? Anti-Semitic?

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TomCADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:38 AM
Original message
Do Jews Or Anyone Find The Trivialization Of The Nazis and The Holocaust Insulting? Anti-Semitic?
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 12:27 PM by TomCADem
We are talking about a relatively modest reform of healthcare that is still far removed from the healthcare systems of Canada, France or other European countries, which I would hardly characterize as "death camps." Yet, the right wing has increasingly taken to using Nazi related genocidal imagery to attack the healthcare reform. My question is whether this trivializes the horrific history of the Nazis and the holocaust, particularly for folks who are too young to know anyone who fought in WWII, let alone who was was affected by the holocaust.

Put another way, the charge of "socialism" has been thrown out so often that its meaning has now been distorted beyond recognition with even mainstream media now repeating the term in reference to President Obama's very capitalistic friendly policies. Will the same apply for Nazi related imagery and references to the genocide?

If anything, I would find such casual use of genocidal imagery to both be insulting and anti-Semitic. Again, even with healthcare reform, the U.S. is not going to have a government run healthcare system as is the case in England, yet I would hardly characterize England's healthcare system as institutional genocide. Yet, if this imagery is used often enough, then the imagery will lose potency and meaning, and the hateful, sadistic history of the Holocaust will be trivialized into irrelevancy by the right wing. Heck, maybe this is even the secondary goal of the Christian right as Ann Coulter pushes her effort to "perfect the Jews."

http://mediamatters.org/research/200710100008

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Deutsch then asked, "It would be better if we were all Christian?" to which Coulter responded, "Yes." Later in the discussion, Deutsch said to her: "ou said we should throw Judaism away and we should all be Christians," and Coulter again replied, "Yes." When pressed by Deutsch regarding whether she wanted to be like "the head of Iran" and "wipe Israel off the Earth," Coulter stated: "No, we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say. ... That's what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express. You have to obey laws."

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Happyhippychick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Absolutely. Especially coming from those who didn't lose ancestors in the Holocaust.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes - the same when people consider working the equivalent of slavery
or fascist when they have little fear in the US of being murdered by their governent for speaking something negative to a person.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. I am offended that someone on DU decided to give this post a "U"
which I countered, at least for now.

When David Schuster interviewed Orly Taitz and she referred to the media as "brown shirts" he did call on her and she semi retracted.

Someone once said that the first to use the word Nazi in a debate loses. But I think this referred to civilized debate between informed parties.
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Bumblebee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. and I am offended that such a silly question is even posted, and
that the poster does not even know how to properly spell "anti-Semitic." The post has ZERO newsy or intellectual value. If the poster read the news or other DU threads, he/she would know -- rather than asking us in a very childish way to speculate -- that several Jewish organizations have indeed gone on record condemning such comparisons. I was not the one unrecommending it -- but will now.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Gee a spelling coach!
Well do you know what speculate means? The OP is not asking for speculation, but for direct testimony.
What is speculative in the question? Do you assume all of us reading here are just like you, and could not simply say "hell yes it offends me" without needing to speculate about anything?
The OP is asking a question of people here. Apparently, not of you. You might need to speculate where others would simply know.
You can spell them, but you don't seem to grasp what they mean, these words you use.
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TomCADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Let Me Get This Straight - It Is Okay To Broadcast Lies, But Not The Truth?
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 12:47 PM by TomCADem
"The post has ZERO newsy or intellectual value. If the poster read the news or other DU threads, he/she would know -- rather than asking us in a very childish way to speculate -- that several Jewish organizations have indeed gone on record condemning such comparisons. I was not the one unrecommending it -- but will now."

The point of your post is:

1. You agree with my post, because everyone knows it, yet you are going to un-recommend it.
2. That the post has ZERO newsy or intellectual value, because anyone who reads the news or DU threads would know it already and agree.

That is an interesting threshold for newsworthiness that you posit. I frankly disagree. I think the problem is that too often the media agrees with you. They don't post the obvious truths. Instead, they publish falsehoods and complete fabrications. Thus, you have a news coverage of Patients United for Choice touring and comparing President Obama's healthcare proposals to Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler, and Sarah Palin making reference to death camps.

So, agree to disagree. I think the truth, even the truth that rationale people consider obvious, should be considered newsworthy. For example, Medicare is government run healthcare. This would come as a complete newsflash to the folks disrupting the townhalls. Likewise, rationing does occur by health insurance companies. Under your criteria, these facts have ZERO newsy or intellectual value. Likewise, I think the media should think twice about propagating lies and complete fabrications, except where such lies and fabrications are exposed.

Finally, "several Jewish organizations have indeed gone on record condemning such comparisons." So, the case is closed? Yet, why do right wing groups continue to traffic in this imagery? So, I do think the issue still retains some "newsy" value.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. This sort of thing has ALWAYS been commonplace on political websites...
...but it's quite another thing to hear it done by nationally syndicated TV and radio hosts.

And yes, of course it insults me. It insults all Jews everywhere, all victims of genocide. Until the "oppressed" are being stamped with yellow stars and marched at gunpoint into crematoriums, they have no right to make the comparison.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Few folks raised this issue when it was
the Bush regime and the conservatives in American politics that were label Nazi's by many contributors on this forum
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. IF (and that's a big if) their worst fears were accurate, there are valid comparisons to be made.
The T4 program started out by targeting the elderly, infim, and disabled, the incurable, for end-of-life care, and euthanasia. It expanded from there.

Yes, there's something wrong with making direct comparisons to the 41-45 T4 programs, as nothing has been proposed that resembles those later programs, but there are valid comparisons to be made about the difficult ethical issues that resulted from the 39-41 health care programs.

Most historians consider the 275,000 people who died under T4 to be part of the Holocaust. It wasn't just death camps that were part of the slaughter, it was also "medical care" that involved giving lethal doses of medication to people with incurable disease... to trivialize the Holocaust to merely being about death camps is wrong. The German health care system was used for targeted slaughter as well, as was their food systems, their education systems, etc.
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TomCADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We Might As Well Ask If A UFO Landed In New York. The "If" Is Wrong, Thus The Comparison Is Crazy
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 12:59 PM by TomCADem
There fears are seated on right wing spread falsehoods. These are deliberate lies that being spread, which is what sets up the trivialization of the holocaust. By setting up a straw man of euthanasia for old, the right wing then traffics in Nazi genocidal imagery. Remove the straw men, and you now have the rampant comparisons between Obama's modest healthcare reform and the genocidal acts of the Nazis.

Heck, we are not even on a slippery slope to England's healthcare system, yet right wing advocacy groups are now skipping past socialism and inviting comparison to Nazi Germany?

The comparison is completely invalid, because the premise is completely and deliberately false.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. Background: I spent some 5 years dating a bio-ethicist.
I also live in a self-euthanasia state (Oregon), where such issues are very much part of the public zeitgeist.

Some of these "fear" issues are very real, as no sane public option should cover, oh, Terri Shiavo's "dead for 15 years" care, in my opinion.

Actually, come to think of it, that case makes for a rather interesting example of explaining the whole mess.

To the "it's only mostly dead" folks, removing the feeding tubes was a crime, an act of murder, something so cruel and inhumane that "only the Nazi's would do it". To others, who have different perspectives on life, and quality of life, it was an act of mercy to remove the feeding tubes.

The premise isn't entirely false, but thinking about such issues with polarized thinking leads to knee-jerk reactions, where people assume that simple ideas like "life > death" work in a complex world.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. But... DEATH PANEL!!11!!!
Seriously, it's just too stupid to analyze.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. It depends on the context
The Nazis are an archetype for a regime that engages in genocide. But they are also an archetype for a totalitarian regime. When someone makes a bad comparison in the former context it's offensive and stupid. When they make a bad comparison in the latter context it's just stupid.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yes, very insulting to the memories of the victims of the Holocaust
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. ADL Condemns Nazi Slurs in Health-Care Debate
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. Its disgusting and offensive. But everything these wackos do is digusting and offensive
so I am not surprised.
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hileeopnyn8d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm not Jewish
I'm Armenian, and I find it offensive.

Really, the fact that I'm Armenian isn't the reason I find it offensive. I find it offensive because they're twisting something, that like you said, doesn't even come close to the heathcare reform we need in this country, into something evil.

I'm offended and insulted that something I believe in, that comes from compassion and empathy (horrors!) is being compared to one of the most horrific events in history.

Honestly, I'm offended by every tactic they're using against healthcare reform. When I'm not offended, I'm laughing at them. I get insulted on my Mom's behalf because she worked with ACORN in the 70s, and was a union member her entire working life, except for the short stint as an Avon Lady.

And then I laugh at the image of my mom the "thug" as they are so fond of calling ACORN and union workers, 5 feet 100lbs soaking wet thug.

I'm sorry, that was a little off-topic.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. I find it very offensive, but not anti-Semitic.
It is offensive because it does trivialize the Holocaust and the Nazi regime's atrocities outside of the Holocaust. Of course, I have been making this argument since the advent of "Feminazis" and other assorted shit. It makes no difference from which side of the political spectrum it comes. It is as offensive as when people bring up "it wasn't just the Jews," in a conversation that is about Jews (that, I find anti-Semitic and trivializing). It is as offensive as when people criticize Jewish groups for speaking out against these transgressions and usually come from the same assholes who "blame" the Jews when they say nothing or little on topics of which they (the aforementioned posters) think they (the Jews) should be commenting.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. Fascism is a universal concept -- EVERY NATION has it's own right-wing . . .
it's own fanatic - Israel is no exception --

and usually the greatest fanatics operate as if "guided by god" . . .

That was true of Hitler/Nazis who declared "god" was on their side!

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You do know the OP had nothing to do with Israel, right?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Did you notice I said every nation . . . "universal" . . . ??
Holocausts aren't limited to Israel, either --

Corporate power as commonly exerted over the last 100 years and since de-regulation

is fascism -- and we are facing that in health care battles.

This is merely the right-wing pursuing its goals thru fascistic tactics.



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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I did notice you chose one nation to highlight.
I did notice you had nothing to say about the use of Nazi imagery. I did notice you are the only one to mention Israel. I notice lots of things about your posts.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
22. It's even more ironic, since they are using Nazi tactics to control the debate
Well, I guess, technically, they haven't started physically attacking their opponents. Yet.
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
23. The insulting thing is, the right wing has been revising Hitlers status
and all other tyrants, to burden the left with every bad thing that has happened in history. If they get back in power, we are nazis. These people are delusional, and dangerous.
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