IF you arent sick to your stomach after this first segment on KO....

[OwnedByFerrets]

you are stronger than I. This is sickening.

[RamboLiberal]

1. Gee - for some us not near a TV clue us in n/t

[Hissyspit]

29. VIDEO Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x293427

[montanacowboy]

2. Obama, Cult of Personality Not Principle

wtf - what have we got here? he is expanding the State Secrets Act? Making it bigger and better than ever? Is his popularity going to his head?

THEY NEVER HAD ANY INTENTION TO PROSECUTE BUSH/CHENEY

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

7. is it finally starting to sink in, montanacowboy?

[Occam Bandage]

17. Obviously he never had any intention to prosecute Bush. I've been saying so for over a year.

[OwnedByFerrets]

25. Sometimes it hurts to be correct.

[juajen]

37. You're so right. This just hurts, and hurts and hurts. NT

[Medusa]

47. No he didn't. Why is this so shocking to some of you?

That would open up a can of worms that I think they can't open in the interest of national security. I would like to see them punished too but the reality is that it's just not going to happen and anyone who thought that it would was seriously naiive.

[bdamomma]

48. sad that our own government will not hold the bush criminals

accountable, I guess Spain will have to step up their efforts. What the hell? what don't they get these crimes reflect on all of us. The neo cons are probably scheming their next overthrow.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

3. Yes, and I was roundly criticized here when I said...

I wouldn't drink the Kool-Aid and be 100 percent behind the new President because of things like torture and privacy. Keith nailed it: This is a question of constitutional principle versus programs (power and expediency). I'm not happy to have to say I was right. I wanted to be wrong about this.

[jefferson_dem]

16. Right. That's what Barack Obama's presidency is all about - Tyranny and Kool-Aid.

KO is a firebranded editorialist...sure. But let's dispense with the phony "good versus evil" dichotomy.

[cottonseed]

40. Must be tough being the lone shining light in a sea of Kool-Aid.

[ChiciB1]

4. I'm More Than Sick... I'm OUTRAGED!!! This Is The LAST STRAW...

We as a nation FORCE DEMOCRACY on other nations when all the while we shred OUR CONSTITUTION!!

Sorry folks, this is unforgivable! Say what you will, but while doing so answer the question as to WHY, truthfully if you can!

What am I missing????

[CTLawGuy]

5. The law is not

completely bendable for political reasons and unless you expect the government to just let itself be sued, you shouldn't be surprised that DOJ lawyers are making these arguments. They are only arguments before a judge--this is only a motion to dismiss a lawsuit--and the judge will determine what the law says about sovereign immunity, law that has been laid down in precedent. So do yourselves a favor and stop hyperventilating.

[OwnedByFerrets]

10. SO, just lay down and accept our fate huh??

Sorry, I'm not made that way.

[CTLawGuy]

12. do you understand how

the legal system works?


Your only course of action is to support a primary challenger in '12.

[Supersedeas]

38. they will get to him too --- no single man can create that kind of systematic change

[ChiciB1]

13. That Sir... Is Hog Wash IMHO! Did You NOT Listen to What Turley Said???

And Obama came from "Constitutional Law!" I suppose anything can be defended, it has been for the past EIGHT years, but then I considered the source and saw criminal behavior! What makes it different now???

[CTLawGuy]

14. the DOJ was NOT

deciding what the law is, SIR, it was defending the CURRENT US government from having to pay for the possible torts (that is, civil wrongs) of the PAST administration, and it was making a civil motion. This is what lawyers representing a client do (the government is the client).

This motion will be decided by the JUDGE based on what the law is, in actuality. The judge may agree with you.

[rug]

19. If the government broke the law in 2005 the government in 2009 should not be defending that action.

If those with their hands on the government machinery in 2005 were criminals, those governing today should not defend those actions.

What lawyers do is what their clients tell them to do. Who is telling them today to defend those crimes and torts commited in the name of the United States?

[CTLawGuy]

21. the alternative is

to concede to possibly exponentially large liability which may or may not be justified based on each individual case. Again, the judge will decide what the law says, that's what a judge does. The DOJ is not declaring the law to be such by fiat.

[rug]

23. "possibly exponentially large liability" is a nice euphemism for felony.

If it's there, and by all reasonable accounts it is, the present government should not only cut bait on these disgraced arguments, but acknowledge the wrongdoing far and wide. That is the only way the government will recover any credibility on this issue.

And there would be no need for the lawsuit - and no need for a judge - if the government didn't authorize this crap in the first place.

[ChiciB1]

27. DING, DING, DING!!! Fuzzy Law Words Have Always Sounded Like...

fuzzy LAWYER words!!!

[CTLawGuy]

28. well it is OUR money

that the government would have to pay, not all the claims may be legitimate, and who knows, it is possible that maybe there IS a national security concern--we don't know. The point is, there may be legitimate reasons to force a judge to determine the issue of sovereign immunity.

I don't like the wiretapping either and I have sympathy for those who were spied upon.

But this is nothing more than part of a litigation strategy.
It is not a policy change--it doesn't change the law.
It is not the abrogation of the 4th amendment, because the Supreme Court decides what the 4th amendment says, not the executive branch. If the executive branch is in VIOLATION of the 4th amendment, then the Supreme Court will declare the action unconstitutional.
Finally, the fourth amendment is not as clear as you would think on this issue. Government has greater power when crossing national borders is involved -- something decided by the Supreme Court decades ago. Did you know it was held constitutional in 1977 (US v. Ramsey) for the border patrol to search international mail without ANY suspicion? Whether we like it or not, this is the law.

[CTLawGuy]

30. considering this is not a criminal case

whether it is a felony or not is irrelevant.

[rug]

31. If the government fails to quash the discovery in this case, it will be.

[CTLawGuy]

32. That may be true

and if there is lawbreaking then I hope the DOJ will prosecute it. But people are treating this as if Obama just tore up the 4th amendment by making arguments in a legal motion in litigation.

[ecstatic]

8. details? Not all of us are watching nt

[pleah]

22. Here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x293427


:)

[truebrit71]

9. I am fucking furious...

...I never thought "Change you can believe in" would mean the destruction of the 4th amendment.... :grr:

[Skittles]

11. but....but.....KO campaigned for Obama!!!

SURELY he is not disappointed? :rofl:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

15. If this was Bush we were talking about...

DU would be on fire right now with outrage.

Don't disappoint me now, DUers, not after the last eight years here.

[OwnedByFerrets]

18. You are absolutely correct. Its amazing.

[ChiciB1]

20. Absolutely, Totally Correct... On FIRE & SCREAMING!!! n/t

[acmavm]

24. Look, apparently something went wrong last November. A lot of people

think that we're just supposed to sit down and shut up now. But you don't have to. I don't have to. It isn't a matter of what people here are willing to do to stand up for what's right anymore that's important. Because the biggest issue now is 'do the shoes look good with the dress'? It's only been XXXX months. YOU WANT HIM TO FAIL! Racist!

Michelle Obama is a lovely woman and we are very lucky that she is the new face in the White House. But that does not excuse relinquishing one's duty, both to the country and the Constitution.

[Jennicut]

26. Right. So commenting on a pic thread makes some of us so stupid. Please

Like people here can not differentiate. Sorry, we are not Freepers here, at least most of the time. I like our President, I approve of many of things he has done. He had a great overseas trip and set in motion many of the things I wanted him to do (especially in regards to the Muslim world). But this is wrong and I don't agree with him on this. My "eyes have not been opened". I never thought he was perfect to begin with, no politician is. Does not mean I am ready to dump him cause frankly he is the best thing we have right now. However, protesting this, calling the govt. regarding this, etc. are some things people can do.

[xiamiam]

35. we ARE furious and we ARE smarter..now,,we also have at least a little part of the media..not much..

but more so than 2003 for example..and it is ok to be smart and questioning again..republicans and evangelicals are less relevant..irrelevant, imo....we know we are dealing with the wall street elite, the washington elite, and the media elite (greenwald)...but one thing for sure, we know we have numbers..i expect people to be in the streets when they cant get anymore xanax, or some other anti depressant...

barack has popularity at this point and I still believe in him...just a few days ago, he announced that we are now committed to ending nuclear weapons...thats very big and progressive...all of the foreign diplomacy trip gets high marks..

but, people are still losing jobs and their houses, fats cats are getting obscene bonuses, fraud and greed continue unchecked, health care is non existent for many...the treasury secretary was the wrong choice..as well as anyone who ever worked at goldman sachs...

no one is going after war criminals...other than spain and maybe the uk...

yeah im furious...at 59, my financial world is in shambles and im one of millions....no legitimate solutions to resolve the financial crisis for middle america have been enacted although there are a lot of good ideas on the table....the housing crisis will continue to get worse unless foreclosures are stopped...STOPPED

i get teary when i see my president representing me intelligently with compassion...yet im pissed about summers and geithner and ceos and the fact that the fat cats made billions betting against the loans they made to millions of america.....and wiretapping ....and escalating war in afghanistan..

with bush, i hated everything he did..i loathed cheney even more...i spent 8 years of my life angry...and now, after fighting and learning everything i could to let everyone i came in contact with know what was really going on, my heart has yet to heal...new heartaches which i didnt even expect...and disappointment...have appeared...like today...and the news in this thread..

[Divine Discontent]

44. oh don't think I'm fooled. be sure to vote in my poll btw! thanks eom

[QC]

33. Keith Olbermann is an enemy of the people. n/t

[Milspec]

34. well no, not really

[Dinger]

36. Well, There Is No way In Hell That You Can Say KO Isn't An Obama Supporter

Remember the primaries? (I'd like to forget)

[leftofthedial]

39. Obviously, KO and Fineman and Hurley are Obama haters!

I'm disgusted.

I find it hard to believe that we have a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress.

My party is dead.

[QC]

41. They are enemies of the people. n/t

[Reterr]

43. They are FREEPERS (also Jonathan Turley, Rachel Maddow etc)

:grr:

[empyreanisles]

42. I'm not losing any sleep over this.

But whenever a reporter asks him about this, I'd be curious as to what the answer is.

It would be wise to have some kind of youtube video or summit where he describe what his plans are for wiretapping authority, etc.

My guess is, there is an endgame of sorts here and Obama isn't saying squat until he is ready. This one little court case is simply a distraction and he's not ready to lay down his cards yet.

So my advice? Get a grip and hang on longer.

You are going to drive yourself crazy over these 4 years if you go apeshit over every little story that SEEMS like a betrayal (but in the wider scheme of things, turns out not to be).

[LittleBlue]

45. I am, and can't believe Obama did this to us

He knew it was one of the core principles his base supported.

Good luck against Palin in 2012, President, you'll need it with no base.

[Hieronymus]

46. Terribly disappointed is what I am ... I'm trying to focus on the good he's doing.