Any Suggestions For A More Pro-Democratic Forum?

[Median Democrat]

This forum seems to have been overrun by trolls who spend more time complaining about the few things they disagree with Obama on, but not lifting a finger to support the things they agree with the Obama administration on, including posts of support. Also, the moderators on this board are MIA, taking the free market approach of saying just use ignore.

Any recommendations for a Democratic forum not filled with closet freepers that actually applies the following:

"Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here."

It would be nice to have an alternative Democratic forum that is *gasp* more supportive of a Democratic President.

Edit: I just want to add that perhaps a forum for the trolling element could be created on this board so that folks who want to bash on Obama could do so separately while discussion and "constructive criticism" can be had in the pro-Democratic forum.

[Top Cat]

1. Kick

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Try Koss?

There are some small ones from people who have left DU.. some of them are gasp, even less supporting and I have yet to find one that is more supporting

[Median Democrat]

11. Not Crazy About KOS's Format, But I Will Revisit It

It certainly does not degenerate into a rant against the Democratic President flamefest.

http://www.dailykos.com/

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Actually, yes it does

but perhaps going there might make you realize that some folks will be critical all the time, some are very specific and some never criticize and then those in between

[Connie_Corleone]

3. Don't forget there is an Obama supporters forum on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=388

Maybe it's time to make that one active again.

[ikojo]

4. It's called Democratic UNDERGROUND

not Democratic Republic. If you want people to march in lockstep then you wont find that here. Even President Obama, during the campaign, said that if we want him to do something we have to push him. Thinking he walks on water and should not be criticized when warranted is not pushing him.

[LakeSamish706]

5. I was actually thinking that a separate forum should be set up for those that want to...

bitch and complain about President Obama.... Why the hell should those of us that support him have to move?

[MercutioATC]

6. Because this isn't "Obama Underground"??

This is a forum for Democrats, not the private domain of Obama cheerleaders.

[LakeSamish706]

7. Yayaya... I get that, but some of the posts are beyond critizisum... n/t

[Mithreal]

17. Then use your brain to persuade or make a reasoned counterpoint

or just alert.

[Zynx]

8. Obama is the leader of the party.

Constructive criticism is one thing. However, most of the criticism is knee-jerk and ill-informed.

[Mithreal]

20. Welcome to a democracy and lively discussion.

Would you prefer everyone take a test when they logged in based upon the day's news in order to verify that they are well informed.

What do you think democracy has always looked like. This is why a lot of folks fear it and prefer our Republic.

If you have inclination, share your wisdom or knowledge and if you must, you can always ignore. I really don't understand all the griping. We live in exciting times. How many of us are already out-of-work, lost health care, lost families from stress, and homes, not to mention most of us living paycheck to paycheck. Give your fellow DU'ers a break unless they are utterly hopelessly stupid and if they are, take em on, again, if you have the inclination and with respect to the forum rules.

[Median Democrat]

12. Again Looking For A Forum For Discussion and Support

"This is a forum for Democrats, not the private domain of Obama cheerleaders."

President Obama is the Democratic President. Can you be pro-Democrat, but anti-Obama and anti-Democratic Party? Also, I do take offense at the idea of being supportive of President Obama's agenda is something to be ridiculed as being a cheerleader. I voted for President Obama, and I do support his agenda, If your point is that this not the place for such folks, then that is fine. I am merely asking for an alternative forum for those of us who do support President Obama's platform and agenda. Your post is informative because it suggests that there is a tension between supporting the Democratic President and supporting Democrats. Can you really identify a more progressive President than Obama in the past 30 years?

Also, I am fine with constructive criticism:

"Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here."

However, many of the posts here merely contain spams of critical articles with no discussion whatsoever, which are then repeatedly bumped without comment.

[amandabeech]

67. You can certainly be pro-Democratic party and anti-any one of its office holders or leaders,

including the current President.

Democrats have roundly criticized their Presidents for years. I guess you don't remember why LBJ didn't run for a second term of his own.

How about all the carping about Carter--Sen. Kennedy actually ran against Carter in the primaries in 1980, and many people think that Kennedy's run doomed Carter. That's the ultimate carp.

The dissatisfaction about Clinton was serious, too. In fact some of us carping about Obama's policy toward the banksters were also critical of Clinton's policies toward business, including some of the same appointees that Obama has, like Larry Summers, and before him, Bob Rubin.

We're not Republicans. We're not all authoritarian personalities. We're Democrats acting like Democrats, for crying out loud.

If you want to purge those of us who think that the President is going the wrong way (or is being pushed there by his advisers)on one or more issues, then go ahead, destroy the spirit of the First Amendment and be done with it.

[John the Revelator]

43. nice avatar. at least we know where you stand.

[MercutioATC]

59. People started calling me "Chicken Little" in 2007 when I said a crash was coming.

I wear the avatar proudly.

[girl gone mad]

19. Maybe because you are the ones asking for a more restrictive format..

which would require special moderation and more specific rules.

[laugle]

40. Better to just start an

Obama fan club forum!

[Cha]

9. A similiar thread

just got locked while a thread saying, "Fuck you, Obama" still stands.

[Mithreal]

21. The mods are more reasonable than that.

There is something you are not telling us.

[TwilightZone]

23. Actually, it's an accurate statement.

In the explanation provided by the locking mod in the other thread, they explained that they felt that they were walking a fine line between allowing comment and censorship.

Curiously, that apparently meant locking the thread questioning the process and leaving the "other" thread open, at least for the moment.

[Cha]

26. Thank you,

Twilight Zone.

[Mithreal]

27. I didn't say it was inaccurate, just incomplete. nt

[TwilightZone]

31. From what I can see...

the statement was adequately complete. A thread similar to this one was locked, while the vitriolic thread that led to it remains open.

Frankly, I'm not sure much more needed to be said, though that's simply my opinion.

[Mithreal]

35. Is it the following post, I used DU google?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8302987

I really hope I am not breaking any rules by carrying this link into the conversation because I do not want to carry over a fight from another thread, but I may just not understand the reluctance for the other DU'er to just post a link to the op in question.

That being said. I remember when it came up and was rather disgusted with the language.

Anyway, if that is the thread, it did not only say the words attributed to it. There was more to the op with regard to don't ask don't tell policy of the military.

[TwilightZone]

39. I suspect that that's one of them....

I hadn't seen that particular one, but I've seen quite a few similar sentiments today on various threads re: other issues. Mostly, it's been the same few DUers posting multiple threads with the same underlying message, and I'm sure that's what is leading to threads like this one and the locked one questioning the mods.

I've been here a long time, and frankly, I'm kind of surprised that those threads haven't been locked. I understand where the mods are coming from in allowing "conversations", but at the same time, many people have often seen DU as a place to get away from vitriol and partisanship. With varying levels of success, of course. The rules are pretty clear about flamebait, disruptive behavior, etc., but that stuff's always been here to some degree.

[Cha]

24. See # 23 for another opinion..and,

yeah, I was telling it like it is.

[Mithreal]

29. See #27. I am more concerned with fact. Like it is, yes, but incomplete. nt

[Cha]

32. Whatever.. I said enough..I

really don't care what you think about it.

[Mithreal]

36. Why so dismissive? If I am wrong I apologize. I just cannot believe

the mods would let an op that says ONLY what you said remain active. I would have the poster tombstoned if it were true but that's just me.

I won't dismiss you or your statements so easily if only out of respect to a fellow DU'er.

[billyoc]

10. dnc.org

[Median Democrat]

14. Thanks, But Can't Find Their Forum

Do you have a direct link to their forum?

http://www.dnc.org/

[billyoc]

30. Yeah, sorry, wrong URL.

http://www.democrats.org/blog.html

[mvd]

15. The mods are doing as good a job as they can, I'm sure

It's a tough balance between weighing free speech with disruption/rule breaks. I've been a mod before for many terms. I appreciate their time, and they try to be as fair as they can.

[TexasObserver]

16. Alert on the worst and put the rest on Ignore.

It works!

I daily cull the most rabid haters.

[Median Democrat]

18. Thanks! I have been more aggressive with ignore and alert

It does dramatically change the tenor of the board, except that you start to recognize that you are viewing a dramatically different board than many of your peers. I am not abandoning this board. Just looking for an alternative with less rants and flames. More reason, and less anger. More discussion, and less negative article spam.

[mvd]

22. Hide thread is also useful

I use that more than ignore.

[LooseWilly]

37. You don't have to read negative articles in their entirety.

And you don't have to read all the posts in a thread...

And sometimes the "flaming" is actually a legitimate gripe coming from a point of view that Obama is really not addressing... though I personally often assume that that is largely a result of the fact that one can not represent all people at all times.
Even giving Obama the benefit of the doubt, he will inevitably not do enough for some interests at a given time... and those not being thrown a bone have every right to gripe. Just because a "leftist" complains doesn't mean that Obama is being "flamed". It just means that voices of the "left" are trying to add themselves to the general cacophany of the scene... and I think Obama has a thick enough skin to take it, and he's politically savvy enough to know that it is generally politically expedient to ignore the "left", and I presume that he will do so as often as he finds politically necessary.
I do wonder though, why anyone goes into a panic when those voices raise themselves?

I can't see Obama being foolish enough to enact policies that will drive enough voters to Nader that it will be a concern. Maybe some voices of criticism to listen to and consider is actually a good thing?...

[Mithreal]

25. If you can't stand up to fellow DU'ers

then how much harder will it be to talk with Independents and Republicans?

Maybe I just don't understand. Using IGNORE seems a weakness.

[Median Democrat]

38. Well, I Am Not Necessarily Looking For A Place To Get Into Flame Wars

I do that in blogs, but then I know what I am getting into. However, sometimes, I am looking for a more reasoned discussion, rather than an exchange for rants. I understand your point that you may be looking for a place to rant and respond to rants, but not I. For example, if I were to go on a forum on red wine, I would not necessarily want to engage or "stand up" to prohibitionists who think think drinking is a sin. Perhaps I am looking for some like minded folks who actually support Obama's platform and the Democratic administration. This is why I am asking for an alternative. A place besides the current forum, which often degenerates into personal attacks where folks accuse each other of being "weak."

[Mithreal]

41. I honestly understand. And folks on DU are not in consensus.

Generally we agree and support the platform and administration but when it comes to policy and detail we are not always in agreement.

I wish you well if and wherever you do go or if and when you return. If you do find a new home though, please try to remember this forum is not affiliated with the Democratic Party and the name Underground probably attracts more people who are anti-authority types. And lotsa people are hurting now, even anti-authority types.

I do wish people would realize that many people who come here are honestly unfamiliar with talking politics and may be way behind the curve in terms of history and government. I often sense hostility that is unwarranted and sometimes jump in because I never shy away from a fight over policy or justice. I get your meaning why you might think I come here to rant, but I really come here to improve my understanding and communication skills. I am relatively new to talking about politics and never had a good history teacher and despite having ADD and being a lil aggressive, I generally have love for my fellow human and am fascinated by politics and history.

[Danger Mouse]

51. Ignore is for the people who are simply not worth talking to.

[FrenchieCat]

28. If someone starts one, I'll help maintain it.

And would uphold the rules set forth....

[rug]

33. This one needs some help.

http://obamagirl.com/

[Danger Mouse]

34. Maybe if people alert more often.

:shrug:

[Median Democrat]

42. Well, In This Thread Alone I've Ignored The "Why Don't You Start A Fan Club" Folks

This is what I was talking about. Some people do not want to discuss Democratic issues. Rather, they are looking to troll and start fights. One person, who was just placed on ignore, asked, "If you can't stand up to DUers, how can you stand up to right wingers." The key difference is that I am looking for folks who share similar viewpoints, who are willing to constructive discuss differences. I am not looking to exchange verbal attacks, which I can do by posting on Free Republic or commenting on an MSNBC blog.

That is the key difference, which is why I am looking for a more pro-Democratic forum where you don't have folks looking to start fights merely for the sake of starting fights or who seem to make themselves feel better by personally attacking fellow posters.

[Mithreal]

44. My comment was about putting people on IGNORE. Ironic. nt

[specimenfred1984]

45. Yes, all these horrible ideas that flow from smart people are so annoying

We need a place were only yes-people are allowed.

[TwilightZone]

50. Yes, because statements like...

"Fuck you Obama" and "ClueBama" are so incredibly brilliant!

Man, those smart people sure are smart.

[Jakes Progress]

46. You mean you want a Democrat Underground?

Support all Democrats all the time, regardless?

Or is it Obama specific?

I take the term "Democratic" to mean one that supports democracy. Check out the definition. It would seem to encourage people to have their say.

I'm not too happy with the Obama haters, but I don't worry about people who their cues from the media whether it leads to hating our president or to their being slavishly devoted to his very image.

So is it bashing is I want to discuss my disagreement with announced policies. For instance, I'm not too happy with expanding the war in Afghanistan or with the whole bi-partisan fiasco or with parts of the education plan. So does that make me a freeper? If I post an opinion that President Obama is so very much better than bushco or mccaint, does that make me a cheerleader?

If I say that I think he may be doing a fair job with the auto makers, but believe he is playing softball with wall street, fat cat, billionaires, which am I?

Sheesh.

[TwilightZone]

49. The D in DU generally means the party, not the political term.

From the Who We Are page: "Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

As for "Democrat Underground", it's Democratic Underground for the same reason that we're not in the Democrat Party.

[Jakes Progress]

61. Semantics

You did not address my question.

[Clio the Leo]

47. But if you leave, the trolls will only grow louder...

.... hang in there kid!

(but then again, it WOULD be kinda boring if we all sat around agreeing w/one another all the time.)

[MrSlayer]

48. If we had more Democratic leaders that stuck to Democratic principles there would be less complaint.

People are simply not going to walk in lockstep with a Democratic President if he is doing things they don't like. I don't believe there is a single person on here attacking President Obama from the right, which would make them freeperlike. Criticizing the man for not acting enough like a Democrat should be welcome. Criticizing our continuously spineless, corporate loving Congress is our job as citizens. We need a serious course correction and we aren't going to get it by sitting on our hands and letting business as usual continue. These are the guys that are supposed to be the "good" ones, the ones that are allegedly on "our" side. And when they act against that supposition people get mad and sound off. We're tired of being raped and we're tired of being told it's raining when they are actually pissing on us.

[Median Democrat]

52. Criticism Is Great, But Accusing The President Obama Of Raping You?

Is what makes me wonder. Also, instead of actual discussion, we just have people spamming stories at each other without comment. Where's the discussion? Where's the criticism? You say, "We're tired of being raped and we're tired of being told it's raining when they are actually pissing on us." Well, is this constructive criticism?

"Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here."

This is what I get sick of. The non-constructive rants that simply do not move the discussion forward where folks essentially express hatred or disgust with the President as revealed by using such emotionally charged language as rape. Rape is a horrible crime. Are you seriously advocating that we should prosecute or impeach Obama?

This makes me wonder whether we really are on the same team. I might disagree with President Obama's approach, but I would not say that he "raped" me. If I was using that language, I'd probably be in another party, and I actually do generally support President Obama's agenda.

[MrSlayer]

53. I didn't say Obama raped us, I said we're tired of being raped by corporatist politicians.

And we're tired of being lied to by people in our party who go right wing when they are supposed to be on our side. We're going to hold the President to account and we're going to hold the party to account. It's too early to say whether or not President Obama is going to continue the corporate friendly/anti-worker policies we've been saddled with for 30 years. Certainly members of our party in the Senate have showed their cards on this already and they are not Democratic cards. They want to continue the rape. We need to hold their feet to the fire. We're all hoping President Obama doesn't turn out to be a bought off, snake oil salesman no different than any other politician but many of us are not simply going to blindly trust that he isn't. If he shows signs of it, he will be called out. That's all I'm saying.

[avaistheone1]

54. What you said.

:thumbsup:

[wyldwolf]

62. Define "Democratic principles" and explain who decided what those are, please.

[Two Americas]

55. seems to be a growing trend

The calls for purging or censoring people seem to be growing, and perhaps will succeed. I think the board is becoming more and more a rubber stamp for the party leadership, and that may be what people want.

For one group of people, electing Democrats was always a means to an end. For another, electing Democrats was the main goal. The first group is going to continue to speak about the same things, just as they always have. For the second group, they want that to change now that Democrats are in office, and they see the critics as traitors or trolls or disruptors. So long as Republicans were in power, the goals of the two groups were in alignment. Now they are not, and it can only get worse.

DU may need to change, and may not work he way it used to when Republicans were in power. I have no problem with DU becoming a booster club for the party, even though that would leave me on the outside.

If the folks on this thread, and similar threads tonight, want to be rid of the Leftists - or "Naderites" or "PUMAs" or whatever you want to call us - I think that is fine and I will support it. The two groups do not have much in common any more, and on almost every issue there are profound disagreements. Reconciliation and understanding become less and less likely with each thread like this. Neither group will back down, nor should they.


...

[Mithreal]

56. I agree. It may be healthier for everyone to make that split.

This is the forum that kept me fired up during the election and made me believe that I had found an internet home. I am feeling less and less welcome. It's even harder sometimes when occasionally someone I once admired slams me for putting my principles before the President. I am hoping the owners of DU and mods see that this may be necessary. I am ok either way they would decide.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Djinn]

58. Admittedly I've done SFA to "help" the OB admin

but then again I've spent my entire adult life lifting a whole lot more than fingers for progressive causes in the US and UK.

Over the years I've come across many DUer's who do PLENTY of "finger lifting" in the US (and had the fortune to meet a couple of them in real life too)

I imagine they're as pissed off as I am with your baseless assertion that they do nothing simply because they don't agree with you, or even (gasp horror call the guards) Obama. How on earth are you judging what posters here do with their time based on your limited tenure simply by looking at their posts??

How many times have you worked 24/7 for no pay, risked personal injury, loss of income, jail or a beating for the causes YOU support?

This particular "troll" has been saying the exact same shit on this board for 5 years before you turned up, Skinner seems OK with it. Maybe we could have a separate forum for people so unsure of their own positions that they quake in fear at any criticism and think fandom = activism.

Sorry but if what's happening on the board upsets you so much I can not fathom how you could possibly be evenly remotely active politically. This crap is par for the course. I've been spat on, screamed at and charged by a line of police horses amongst other unpleasantries defending my beliefs - people calling me a troll or PUMA or a hater or anything else wont make me pine for a friendly board where I can have a big circle jerk.

[old mark]

60. Democrats in the "real" world never agree on much, but I am

surprised at the amoung of nitpicking here.
I think Obama is doing a great job, especially considering the disaster he started with on all levels.

I guess I was just lulled into complacency by the fact we were united enough to actually elect him in the first place, and thought that spirit might somehow continue....

mark

[ericgtr]

63. I run a democratic board too and this same thing is happening there

I don't like it either but people need to be able to vent about things they disagree with Obama about. I wouldn't really call it a divide as much as people take issue with certain decisions Obama makes, really that is fair and we should be discussing it like adults and not fighting over them.

[ArchieStone1]

64. Daily Kos

Dissenters are met wit derision and snark there.

[blindpig]

65. You can call it the Echo Chamber. n/t

[bigwillq]

66. No.

The forum is fine the way it is. Yes, there are extremes are both sides but, for the most part, it really is a good place to discuss issues. We don't always have to agree, and we can criticize someone or something, but in the end we can still be Democrats.

It bothers me more when someone thinks we all have to agree and we can't be critical just because the Democrats are in power. I don't agree with a lot of things Democrats do but I would rather be a Democrat, or at least someone that supports more Democratic causes than support another party or group.

[azmouse]

68. Interesting reading this thread.

Each 'side' is represented but I see little trying to understand what the other side is saying.

If someone wants to support Obama why call them 'cheerleaders'?
If someone wants to criticize Obama why call them 'trolls'?

Neither term leads to understanding and only hardens each side to their own point of view.

To be honest, because this IS Democratic Underground I'd rather see someone with all-out support of Pres Obama than someone who can find absolutely nothing positive to say (and I understand that among those that criticize this type of person is not common but they do exist here).

Please, let's all police our own response to this situation and try to approach each other as people who have the same goals for our country... jobs, equality, peace. If we can't achieve this here how can we achieve this in the real world?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

69. You have been here just a year...

...you came onboard during a national election cycle, a time filled with Obama supporters joining up and the board being intent on electing a Democrat to office.

It appears you want DU to remain in "booster mode".

DU is a discussion board. It was a discussion board long before Obama came on scene and (the gods willing) long after he leaves office.

Just because a Dem is in office doesn't mean DUers are going to roll over and let our tummies get rubbed for the next four years.

We are going to discuss. We are going to argue. We are going to dissent loudly. We are going to hold feet to the fire. We are going to do everything a discussion board does.


Can't handle it? The exit is that-a-way. ----->