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Without a Pastor of His Own, Obama Turns to Five

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 05:28 PM
Original message
Without a Pastor of His Own, Obama Turns to Five
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/us/politics/15pastor....

Without a Pastor of His Own, Obama Turns to Five

President Obama has been without a pastor or a home church ever since he cut his ties to the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. in the heat of the presidential campaign. But he has quietly cultivated a handful of evangelical pastors for private prayer sessions on the telephone and for discussions on the role of religion in politics.


All are men, two of them white and three black including the Rev. Otis Moss Jr., a graying lion of the civil rights movement. Two, the entrepreneurial dynamos Bishop T. D. Jakes and the Rev. Kirbyjon H. Caldwell, also served as occasional spiritual advisers to President George W. Bush. Another, the Rev. Jim Wallis, leans left on some issues, like military intervention and poverty programs, but opposes abortion.

None of these pastors are affiliated with the religious right, though several are quite conservative theologically. One of them, the Rev. Joel C. Hunter, the pastor of a conservative megachurch in Florida, was branded a turncoat by some leaders of the Christian right when he began to speak out on the need to stop global warming.

end of quote

Hunter headed the Chirstian Coalition. Caldwell and Jakes are virulantly anti gay by any reasonable measure. Wallis is at best mediocre on gay issues. That leaves Moss whose views I don't know. There are gay friendly religious voices out there it would have been nice if he had found some.


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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Please, let us get a gay friendly woman pastor who can help Obama!
I am saddened that, as a man of faith, and as president of the U.S. (!), he cannot find a pastor to help him.

I hope a woman pastor who can lead him gently into comfort with gay people into his faith community. I know these women in my own community, altho I am not a churchgoer nor am I a believer.

These wonderful people exist. He has only to call on them...they will respond...
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Perhaps Katharine Jefferts Schori
He should talk to her...
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. There's no political advantage in that.
I am Episcopalian and a major fan of ++KJS, but I don't think that being associated with her will win over fundamentalist voters.
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SFLady Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Go Bishop Katherine
I am also Episcopalian and a major supporter of Bishop Katherine. I had the great privilege of meeting her when she participated in the consecration of Marc Andrus as Bishop of California a couple of years ago. It was just after her election as Presiding Bishop and I was terribly impressed with her. Although there was a huge crush of people who wanted to shake hands with her she took the time with each person to personally make a connection.

I've been wondering all along why President Obama doesn't reach out to some of the major progressive figures like Bishop Katherine. I was somewhat heartened when Bishop Robinson was chosen to be part of the pre-inauguration day celebrations, although I thought he would have been much better choice for the invocation in place of the execrebale Rick Warren (sorry I can't call that man "pastor" - he is one of the most unpastoral persons I've ever seen).
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
91. Yup, add me to the list of fans
The bishop of Washington (Episcopal bishop that is) also sounds like a very, very cool guy.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
36. But the fundies won't be won over, regardless. Obama needs to do what he can.
If we listen to the fundies, we'll never get anything decent done.

Eyes on the prize...
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
90. Sharon Watkins preached at his inaugural worship service.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 07:49 PM by Critters2
I wonder why she's not in this list.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Rev. Wright, Obama's pastor for 20 years, was pro-gay marriage and it didn't
make OBAMA pro-gay marriage. I doubt these pastors will change his mind on anything.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Wright evolved on gay issues himself
I don't know when he evolved but he wasn't pro gay the entire 20 years.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. How do you know he wasn't always pro-gay marriage if you don't know when
he evolved? Still, he WAS pro-gay marriage and it didn't affect Obama's stance on the issue. What makes you think any of these new pastors will change his stance on anything?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. because I read his history and don't have a photographic memory
as to your broader point it the fact he chooses bigotted pastors to take advice from. Would we accept a President having racist advisors on the grounds they were unlikely to change his mind?
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Maybe you can find a link to what you read.
I doubt he takes advice from these pastors. If he did, he'd be pro-gay marriage. Your last sentence is just flamebait.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. No it isn't
We wouldn't tolerate for a second a President selecting a spiritual advisor who attempted to convert black people into white people (an actual tenant of the Mormon faith it should be noted) yet both Caldwell and Jakes believe exactly that about gays.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes it is...
there have been many threads about Obama doing things like bringing openly gay people into his administration and writing a letter about how he's against Prop 8 and you never had a positive thing to say about any of those things, but you use anything you can to paint him as a homophobe or anti-gay rights.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. that is a bald faced lie
I praised his appointment of both the guy who got the Import Export bank and the guy who got appointed head of federal human resources. You are out and out lying when you say I didn't.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. OK...
I apologize for that. Did you comment on the thread about him being against Prop 8?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. There were two I can't recall if I comment on the one here or in the LGBT forum
but I did comment on one.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Was it a positive comment or negative? n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. negative toward the campaign
didn't directly address Obama. Frankly I don't think his personal endorsement would have mattered one way or the other in the vote on prop 8 but they should have used his letter to the extent it might have helped.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yeah, they SHOULD'VE used his letter. It couldn't have hurt...
but why DIDN'T you address Obama directly in a positive way? I see only negative posts from you about Obama on this subject (although I must've missed a couple). Just like on THIS thread, you even dismiss his pro-gay marriage pastor he USED to go to by saying he wasn't ALWAYS pro-gay marriage. And it's inconsistent for you to have concern about his new pastors' positions but not explain how his original pastor didn't cause him to agree with HIS belief on the subject.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I hardly see pointing out the truth about Wright as being anti Obama
sorry the facts aren't to your liking. I guess I could make shit up instead. The fact is Obama's letter was at best a wash it was hardly the Magna Carta. As long as he has bigotted advisors I will point them out. Sorry you don't like that.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. That's not what I'm saying...
Edited on Sun Mar-15-09 07:26 PM by jenmito
I'm saying the facts never seem to be to YOUR liking. It seems everything he does that is GOOD for civil rights is ignored by you or doesn't count to show he's not the homophobe you seem to think he is. And I'm pointing out that his pastor of 20 years who IS pro-gay marriage didn't "make" him pro-gay marriage so I doubt any new pastors will change his views, either.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I didn't say they would
anymore than I think racist advisors would have changed Bill Clinton's views on race but I still would be appalled at the idea of him having racist advisors. As to the rest I praise Obama when he merits it. He did the right thing on the UN Resolution. I liked his appointee to the head of Human Resources. If he gets the Justice Dept to drop the appeal of the Ninth Circuit case which states that the feds have to offer gays equal benefits with straight couples I will be singing his praises. The fact is he hasn't done alot positive on gay issues. I hope he does soon.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. very simple
People have a right to express their opinions.

If you disagree, you are free to debate with them.

But we are under no obligation to always say nice things about any politician, and this cross-examination you are doing here is highly suppressive and destructive.


...
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. Yup
The fit over you pointing out the truth doesn't make it less true.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Are you sure that's a Mormon doctrine?
Michael Jackson is the only black person I know who was able to become a white person, but he's a Jehova's Witness.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. It was part of the Book of Mormon but disavowed in the 1970's
about a decade after the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. I know they had some odd racial beliefs
i.e. something about blacks being the descendants of the 1/3 of the angels who refused to take sides in the battle between Elohim and Satan. But I didn't know they had a "spiritual skin bleaching" ceremony.

Or was that something that only applied when they returned to Kolob, and not here on Earth?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I think they claimed that as blacks became more moral their skin would lighten
clearly absurd but that was their belief.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
104. They got a message from "above" when the were going to boycotted by the NCAA
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wsmyth Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
76. My recollection is his evolution began with the ordination of GLBT minsters within the UCC.
Sorry I can't give you the exact reference, but I recall reading that his position on gay issues changed as a result of the discussions within the UCC on ordination of GLBT ministers and other GLBT civil rights issues. This would have been in the early 70s. Rev. William Johnson who is openly gay was ordained 1972. Rev. Wright officially became pastor of Trinity UCC in March of 1972. Rev. Wright wrote "Good News!: Sermons of Hope for Today's Families" which contains a chapter on GLBT issues in 1995. I've also seen his name on a petition to repeal DOMA.

I don't think Rev. Wright's evolution is recent. The following article also talks about his position. http://washingtonblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog...

I love this quote from the article. I haven't checked if it is in his "Good News.." book.
In one of his sermons of the early 1990s, titled, Good News for Homosexuals, Wright told of how he believes God does not limit his love to heterosexuals.

I refuse to limit my God, to lock God into my cultural understandings because culture is fickle, Wright said. And culture is often wrong. Culture was wrong about slavery. Culture was wrong about women. Culture was wrong about Africans and Indians, and culture was wrong about Christ, he said. I have been the pariah among many of my clergy colleagues who somehow see me as defective or not quite saved because I wont join them in their homophobic gay bashing and misquoting of scripture.


BTW: In the article Rev. Irene Monroe claims Rev. Wright spoke out against the UCC Synod's resolution in 2005. I haven't found anything to confirm this. She references an Article Rev. Wright wrote in a church publication in 2005. I read the article and Rev. Monroe's analysis of the article and I think she is way off the mark. I think Rev. Wright was pointing out that some in the christian community who you won't hear from or won't take a stand on any other issue will come out of the woodwork against gay marriage and gay rights. I think he was trying to highlight their hypocrisy and not trying to minimize the importance of equal marriage rights. He based his comments on his 30 years of working for the GLBT community within and outside the church.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. "evangelical pastors for private prayer sessions" Oh ICK - say it ain't so!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. Wallis calls himself 'evangelical' but is one of the most liberal pastors
in the US. He has been arrested and has given the Democrats nationwide response.


Some very liberal pastors take on the term "evangelical" basing on the origial greek meaning "to announce good news".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wallis
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
69. Well, I guess a left-wing pastor is better than a right-wing one...
But I like the idea of talking to God without the intermediaries ~ so many pastors seem like opportunistic predators to me (think Rick Warren).
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. I just want the new one to be gay friendly like Rev Wright was. I'm tired of homophobes in religion
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snake in the grass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
27. I look forward to the day...
...that this is a non-issue. It is so ridiculous and inane. The fewer "spiritual" leaders he surrounds himself with, the more comfortable I feel. We do not need these shamans involved in government in any form as their superstitious perceptions are at odds with reality.
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I agree
i would feel safer if he didn't believe in magic.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
28. Hopefully Obama finds what he's looking for.
It's hard for people to find a religious home under normal circumstances. Obama is trying to do it as one of the most famous people on the planet.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Exactly. And he knows any church he attends will be scrutinized
just like this piece discussed even the ethnicity of each minister.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
33. 'for discussions on the role of religion in politics'
ummmm

in my opinion, that alone is way to much religion in politics... even discussing it.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
45. True, but at least it's a swing back toward social justice issues. That's what church was about
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 11:11 AM by 54anickel
when I was growing up back in the 60's. The "social gospel" played a large part in the progressive era as well. On the one hand they brought about Prohibition, but on the other hand we got labor unions, public education, prohibition of child labor and woman's suffrage. The economic and social injustices at the turn of the 20th century were the unifying force that temporarily held revivalist (individual salvation) and societial reformers together to bring about some common good.

Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer of separation of church and state. But reality is, churches do still make up a large constituency and it would be helpful to elevate those that are "with us" on most social and economic issues and get the fundamental Moody followers out of the spotlight....maybe even get them to "repent" :evilgrin:

Edit to add: We really are such freakin' tools, aren't we?
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Shit, scratch that reply. I read more closely and these "guys" are NOT representative of
the "Social Gospel" of history at all. Just cheap piety folks not wanting to change the social order of business and the economy that are based on selfishness and competition. They want charity, faith-based initiatives and social revivalism while maintaining the selfish status-quo. Screw them, and screw "church" if this is what they mean by following Jesus. There is nothing counter-cultural about these selfish, pius fools.

Now I even question Jim Wallis, for whom I once had the utmost respect, after reading this piece:

snip>Mr. Wallis has recently joined conservatives in pressing the presidents office of faith-based initiatives to continue to allow government financing for religious social service groups that hire only employees of their own faith.


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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
34. Too bad he feels the need to turn to organized superstition.
Obama is smart; I wish he could just say, "You know what, I don't need to rely on mythology and supernatural beliefs."
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Well, the guy wanted to get into politics.
He needed the creds.

:shrug:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. At least he didn't join a Senate Christian Dominionist prayer group like Hillary.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 09:27 AM by ClarkUSA
But I guess she "needed the creds" too.


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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. No she didn't.
She was already in office. Hillary is very religious, has been so her entire life.

;)
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. She did indeed join a Senate Christian Dominionist prayer group. I'm glad Obama didn't.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 11:52 AM by ClarkUSA
The last thing America needed in 2008 was another religious whacko for President.

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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. I didn't mean that she hadn't joined the prayer group.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 11:56 AM by Beacool
I meant that she didn't need to prove anything. She continued to attend whenever possible for her entire time in the senate.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Of course she did...
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 01:22 PM by ClarkUSA
have something to prove politically. She needed to prove to those who detested her throughout the Clinton Presidency
that she was "one of them" so they wouldn't easily damn her to political hell when she ran for president.



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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Clark, give me a break.
To believe that she gave a rat's tail end what people like Graham or Brownback thought of her is laughable.

I see that you upgraded your dragon and this one looks more fierce.

:7
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. I think it's plausible; the only other conclusion is she's a religious wacko. Take your pick.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 04:53 PM by ClarkUSA
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #74
98. I can excuse your animosity because you don't know Hillary.
She's not this monster that you have created in your mind. Sometimes you sound like a Freeper when you write about her.

:(
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #98
103. What animosity? She's the Obama administration's esteemed SoS and the primaries are OVER.
Edited on Tue Mar-17-09 10:12 AM by ClarkUSA
I do think Hillary should practice the names of other countries' heads of state before attempting to make public speeches.
And perhaps brush up on the history of democracy in Europe. But her "How I fell in love with Bill" photo-ops on overseas
teenybopper and gossip shows have been very successful. She's a real celebrity/rock star while special envoys work quietly
behind the scenes to get results. That's the kind of teamwork she obviously approved of and it is working for her, as her
rising approval numbers prove. What's not to like? It's a win-win for America and that's what really counts, right? :)

As for sounding "like a Freeper" your comments re: Obama and Rev. Wright do indeed fall in that category. Wingnuts would
be delighted to know Hillary is a religious wacko and they love the fact she voted for IWR and Kyl-Lieberman, so your analogy
rings as falsely as your attacks on President Obama's integrity.

The primaries are over. Move on.


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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. YOU are the one who can't let go of the primaries.
As fully demonstrated by your dismissive role of Hillary as SOS. Keep on thinking that she's just a figurehead at State.

Unbelievable..........

:crazy:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. Huh? Who brought up Rev. Wright and Obama's "present" votes? Projection... thy name is Beacool.
Edited on Tue Mar-17-09 10:36 AM by ClarkUSA
As fully demonstrated by your dismissive role of Hillary as SOS. Keep on thinking that she's just a figurehead at State.

You are bound and determined to refight the primaries, aren't you? You must be so bitter; I gave much praise for Hillary's SoS
performance thus far and you attack me for it? Wow. That's so sad.

I hope you can move on someday. Contrary to your misguided beliefs, I'm delighted with President Obama's administration
so far. That includes Hillary's globehopping rock star SoS role. :)




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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #39
95. LOL
Really...WTF?
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Or maybe he believes in his faith
Why does it have to be about creds? You folks...........
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. Because his "faith" didn't hit him before then.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 11:30 AM by Beacool
There are many people he met when he worked for ACORN that helped him to advance politically. Some he still keeps in touch, others he threw under that overfilled bus undercarriage. Have a conversation with Alice Palmer some day.

:eyes:
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Alice Palmer has nothing to do with this conversation
I know the story of Alice Palmer. I see you've still got issues with our President. Too funny.

Faith doesn't "hit" many people until they were adults. There is no way you can know his heart/spirit.

You guys...............
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. You're right. On all counts.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 11:54 AM by ClarkUSA
I see you've still got issues with our President. Too funny.

Faith doesn't "hit" many people until they were adults. There is no way you can know his heart/spirit.


Well-said. :thumbsup:

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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. Clark, baby, how you been?
:hi:
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. I judge neither his heart nor spirit,
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 12:01 PM by Beacool
just his cynical disassociation with Rev. Wright and some others who he apparently didn't need anymore.

:-)
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Of course you are judging his heart and spirit
You obviously have never had a break with a spiritual association. I've been through it twice and I know how difficult it is. For those that even attempt to be reasonable would see that it was inevitable after Rev. Wright's Press Club appearance. What you probably don't is that many people in the religious community pleaded with Rev. Wright to cool it but he chose not to do that. I would have broken with him also. Many people would have done the same.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
51. Yeah, and thank goodness he did.
Whether he believes in this stuff or not, I'm so glad he's the president. He was the best of the bunch running, by far.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. That's a matter of opinion............
:shrug:
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Yes indeed.
As are many things.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
73. See, this is the type of bullshit I can't stand here on DU.
As if people who are Christian or believe in God aren't smart.

Obama is smart and his beliefs have nothing to do with his intelligence. If he truly believes in God and the Christian theology, then I don't think that detracts from his intelligence.

I've met a lot of dumb Christians and I've met some dumb atheists. A former friend doesn't believe in God and not only is he a complete mess, he's a complete idiot. I would never suggest that influenced his beliefs, however.

:eyes:
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
37. Oh yeah, Rev. Wright..............
He too got thrown under the bus.

:eyes:
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. the way he acted during that press conference,
he deserved to be thrown under the bus.

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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
61. Maybe, maybe not.
But politically expediency took precedence. No more was he the spiritual adviser who he could no more deny than he could deny his grandmother..........

:7
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. If Barack believed in political expediency, he would've have broken w/ Rev. Wright from the get-go.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 02:04 PM by ClarkUSA
If he was a political opportunist, he would've supported the IWR during his Senate campaign during a time
when many a politically expedient Democratic senator voted for it -- some without even reading the NIE
that dismissed the notion that Iraq had WMD -- because of their morally bankrupt presidential ambitions.

Too bad more Democratic senators didn't have Sen. Bob Graham's integrity. I'm glad Barack did, by daring
to publicly speak out against "a dumb war" even when his political future was on the line. I'm also glad he
did not do the politically expedient thing re: Rev. Wright by waiting until Rev. Wright spoke out against
him personally before leaving.



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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Clark,
He wasn't even in the senate back then. A speech delivered in IL doesn't mean diddly squat. Furthermore, I always believed that if he had been in the senate, he probably would have voted with the majority. Making waves was not his style in either senate. He sure voted parallel with Hillary to finance the war for his short stay in the senate.

:eyes:
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. oh yeah sure...
let's leave the soldiers over there fighting with nothing.
:eyes:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. It took political courage to speak out against IWR while he was running for Senate.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 04:57 PM by ClarkUSA
That took guts, especially since the top candidate was a pro-Iraq war Republican at a time during a time when public opinion was
very favorable to Bush and the idea of waging war. "He voted parallel with Hillary to finance the war" because he wasn't going to
let the troops hang out to dry but he sure didn't vote "parallel with Hillary to" on the saber-rattling Kyl-Lieberman... because he's
not a conscienceless warmongering political opportunist like some senators.




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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #75
92. No, he didn't even bother to vote on Kyl-Lieberman.
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 11:57 PM by Beacool
Very corageous.........Was that the equivalent of a present vote in IL?

:eyes:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #92
100. Oy vay. This again? Um, Harry Reid rushed the vote while Obama was in NH.
Edited on Tue Mar-17-09 09:12 AM by ClarkUSA
Meanwhile, Hillary stood w/ Joe Lieberman.

Your regurgitating that primary war red herring about "present" votes is both Hillaryous and unfortunate... it's
not too late to learn the facts. Cherry-picking a handful of votes from a long legislative career and then
distorting them is exactly the pattern of Rovian lies that loses elections.
We saw that happen in 2008.
Some people never learn from their candidate's mistakes, apparently.

FWIW: Fact Check: Obama's 'present' votes

SPRINGFIELD, Ill.Barack Obama's rivals in the Democratic presidential race contend he sometimes voted "present"
on tough issues rather than take a firm stand...

THE FACTS: Obama acknowledges that over nearly eight years in the Illinois Senate, he voted "present" 129 times.
That was out of roughly 4,000 votes he cast, so those "presents" amounted to about one of every 31 votes in his
legislative career.

Illinois legislators often vote "present" and for a wide variety of reasons. Sometimes blocs of lawmakers do it as a
protest in some dispute over rules and procedures... In other cases, lawmakers do it to signal objections to the details
of a measure that they support in principle. They also use "present" votes as strategic moves to defeat legislation...
the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council says Obama's "present" votes were actually part of a careful strategy
to prevent those restrictions from passing.

President Pam Sutherland said... she approached Obama and convinced him to vote "present" so that the
wavering senators would do the same... Neither the Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault nor the House
sponsor of the legislation faults Obama for his vote. Former state representative Lauren Beth Gash, who
supports Obama for president, said she ultimately disagreed with his constitutional concerns but that
Obama raised legitimate questions and was acting on principle.


The primaries are over. Move on. Obama Is 44. Enjoy the next eight years instead of being so bitter.

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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #100
101. Bullcrap!!!!
Every "presidential" showed up except, ironically, the two future nominees: McCain and Obama.

:shrug:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. Facts are inconvenient, aren't they? The "Bullcrap!!!" isn't coming from me.
Edited on Tue Mar-17-09 10:31 AM by ClarkUSA
He was present in the Senate on September 25th when the measure was initially scheduled for a vote. Reid tables it, saying
that there wouldn't be a vote in the near future. Barack goes to campaign in NH; Reid subsequently calls a vote, which occurs
at 12:44 on September 26th.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/25/durbin-lieb-kyl-amd... /

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/r...

Sen. Obama did not oppose it on the floor of the Senate because as most people know Sen Reid, the night before the vote
(Obama was there), tabled it "INDEFINITELY". Then the next day, when Obama was already in NH, Reid called for a vote
within 1 hour. When Sen. Obama heard about the vote he issued a statement disagreeing with it. It seems obvious to me
that it wasn't because he was reluctant to cast the vote. Why would he? He's always been against warmongering and
saber-rattling, unlike some other Democratic presidential candidates.

Stop trying to refight the primary wars. It's obvious you still have issues with our President. It is time to move on.

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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. oh please...
If he wanted to be politically expedient, he would have "thrown him under the bus" as you say, the minute all of that stuff aired regarding what Wright said. THAT would have been much easier than taking the hits he took for over a month in the media and elsewhere. Wright left him no choice in the end.
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wsmyth Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #67
78. Except that Obama knew or expected it was coming.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/us/politics/30obama.h...
Mr. Wright, who has long prided himself on criticizing the establishment, said he knew that he may not play well in Mr. Obamas audition for the ultimate establishment job.

If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me, Mr. Wright said with a shrug. I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-trinity-04...
When Obama decided to leave Trinity, Moss said he wasn't surprised. The candidate first expressed his concerns to Moss at an Easter dinner in 2007, shortly after announcing his bid for the presidency and rescinding an invitation for Wright to say a public prayer at the event. Obama did not want to cause trouble for the church and suggested then that a time might come when he would have to leave, Moss said.

The morning of the National Press Club event, David Axelrod was on CNN prior to Rev. Wright's appearance putting distance between Obama and Wright.

My question is, why wasn't the campaign more prepared with a response? In my opinion, they blew it. I'm not saying that Obama needed to have a response for everything Rev. Wright said or preached, but they knew ahead of time that issues could be raised.

BTW, The article contains a faulty time line.

President Obama has been without a pastor or a home church ever since he cut his ties to the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. in the heat of the presidential campaign

Rev. Wright had preached his last sermon at Trinity in Feb 2008. The National Press Club event was the end of April 2008. Obama didn't leave Trinity until after Father Pfleger's sermon at the end of May 2008. Obama left Trinity after Rev. Wright was no longer pastor.
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ErinBerin84 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. well
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 06:50 PM by ErinBerin84
I don't see how what you are saying contradicts what the poster says. I think it would have been more politically expedient for Obama to "throw him under the bus" as soon as the clips hit the media as well. Others obviously disagree. People do change, I think that Wright probably got a bit more batty over time. The Obama campaign, including Axelrod, HAVE admitted that they think that they screwed up on the Rev Wright stuff, and should have anticipated it. Personally, as an agnostic, I don't see how they COULD have anticipated it. I didn't understand that we had such a "religious test" thing in politics to the point of showing clips of poltician's pastors in church. As an agnostic, I'm sure there are plenty of clips of politicians' churches that I would find completely batshit crazy, but I didn't see it disected in the media the same way this was. Whatever. It is worth asking politicians how their faith may affect their politics, but other than that, I could care less.
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wsmyth Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #82
108. I agree there shouldn't be a religous test, but...
Obama decided to make his faith part of the narrative of who he was and therefore part of the campaign. I think he had and has a sincere desire to reach out to faith communities. I think Obama set the correct balance and tone concerning the role of religion in politics in his speech at Jim Wallis's "Call for Renewal" conference in 2006. Obama used versions of that same speech before faith communities during the campaign. His faith also played a prominent role in both his books.

From the 2006 speech.

For one thing, I believed and still believe in the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change, a power made real by some of the leaders here today. Because of its past, the black church understands in an intimate way the Biblical call to feed the hungry and cloth the naked and challenge powers and principalities. And in its historical struggles for freedom and the rights of man, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death; it is an active, palpable agent in the world. It is a source of hope.
....
It was because of these new found understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and affirm my Christian faith.

In this speech and many others, Trinity and Rev. Wright played significant roles.

Rev. Otis Moss Jr said during his sermon at Rev. Wright's retirement that Rev. Wright had spent 36 years making people mad in order to set them free.

So they knew early, probably even before the campaign began that they had a potential pastor problem. In part because Obama himself had put the spotlight on Trinity and Rev. Wright. He knew the style of Rev. Wright's preaching which had had a dramatic influence on his own life.

I clearing can't put words in Obama's mouth, but his campaign should have been ready with some kind of response similar to what you wrote; about how his faith will or won't affect his decision making and separating his views from the views of his pastor and his church. Instead they first went with the insulting Rev. Wright is like a crazy uncle line. Obama knew this was crap, but he was trying to finesse the issue hoping that no one would pursue it.

Maybe it wouldn't have worked but I think if they had been ahead of the issue instead of in crisis mode they wouldn't have had to throw Rev. Wright or Trinity under the bus. We also probably wouldn't have the press investigating all the places that Obama might worship.

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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
41. Odd religion they have
where theives and conmen are rewarded with taxpayer funded bonuses, and their god is served only by hating minorities.
Caldwell and Jakes are bigots, plain and simple bigots. The company one keeps....
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Not only bigots, but heretics, too, advocates of the Prosperity Gospel. n/t
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
44. I can't wait for the day when Freedom of Religion or Not, is practiced here.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
48. There's wisdom in a multitude of councle I attent TD Jakes church, he's done a decent job
...of keeping his access to president away from the church...that's great to me..
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. There's also a lot of wisdom in Otis Moss, Sr.
He has a long history in the civil rights movement. He participated in Coretta Scott King's funeral. He's from my city and his son succeeded Rev. Wright as the new Pastor at Trinity.
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wsmyth Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. But would you describe Moss Jr as a centrist?
BTW: It is Moss Jr not Sr. It is Moss III that has taken over at Trinity.

I had to laugh at the following comment.

These are all centrist, social justice guys, said the Rev. Eugene F. Rivers, a politically active pastor of Azusa Community Church in Boston, who knows all of them but is not part of the presidents prayer caucus.

Do you think Moss Jr. would think of himself as a centrist? I don't.

What I also find humorous is the number of Rev. Wright's associates, like Rev. Otis Moss Jr, that Obama has selected for the White House Office of Faith-Based initiatives. Many of them come from the same theological background as Rev. Wright, some of whom were mentored by Rev. Wright.

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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #77
88. Can you describe this "theological background"? nt
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
72. all I need to know about Jakes is his insane belief that gays can be cured
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #72
89. Kirbyjon Caldwell believes that, too.
This list is very disturbing.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
81. T D Jakes is a bigot! He was BRUTAL in his attacks on
Carlton Pearson, when Pearson began preaching his gospel of inclusion.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
87. TD Jakes is a hate monger. nt
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #48
97. TD Jakes is a for-profit run-of-the-mill "teevangelical"
Make sure the makeup is put on heavy and the Bentley is already warmed up and waiting outside.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
65. I think its stupid for us to even know about his Pastors.
Religion and politics should not mix. Of course, the right wing exploits religion for their purposes. But seriously, who care who his Pastors are? It should be a private thing imo.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. I agree - TMI
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #70
79. Glad someone else here does
Religion should be a private thing and the preference of who your pastor is should be no ones business. No one goes around asking me who my pastor is or even if I am religious or not. I don't care if he is the President.
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ErinBerin84 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #65
84. I agree as well.
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dascientist Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
71. t.d. jakes, yuck :(
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #71
83. I agree.
:puke:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
80. Since when is Kirbyjon Caldwell not affilliated with the religious right? nt
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Jakes, too
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
85. You don't know the nature of his relationship and discussions with those men
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 07:01 PM by ecstatic
Key point: "he has quietly cultivated a handful of evangelical pastors for private prayer sessions on the telephone and for discussions on the role of religion in politics."

If the discussions are private, that means someone is guessing and talking out his or her ass.

By the way, maybe you can post the names of all your contacts and acquaintances so that we may tell you which people you are allowed to talk to and which people you should cut off/replace. :eyes:
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #85
93. when I have the power to determine if you can serve in the Armed Forces
marry, be fired for being yourself, have the same rights as others I will gladly give you a list of my friends, until then you can STFU.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #93
99. I see your point but the fact remains
Edited on Tue Mar-17-09 08:55 AM by ecstatic
that none of us know what the men discuss. He could be criticizing the anti-gay bigotry in the church for all we know. Secondly, regardless of what their discussions consist of, they are not setting policy in his admin. They are his private contacts and we don't get to tell people who to talk to in their private lives.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
94. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are:
for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
96. The peace and love of Jesus himself has touched this thread
nt
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
102. Who has aided and abetted Bush and Cheney more than these "men of God."
Haven't we had enough of these assholes' compassionate advice? Its about time that these lying hypocrites were locked out of the White House so they can spend more time fleecing their hapless congregations.
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nevia sky Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
109. What happened to what's-his-name? Rick Warren? LOL & N/T
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