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Can A Small D Democratic Leader Be Successful Without Triangulating In A Pluralistic Society

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:07 PM
Original message
Poll question: Can A Small D Democratic Leader Be Successful Without Triangulating In A Pluralistic Society
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 05:11 PM by DemocratSinceBirth

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. We don't have a Pluralistic Society n/t
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not Really
But few if any exist or have ever existed.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Then why ask if a (d) needs to triangulate when the majority are on the same page?
:shrug:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'd like to agree on a definition of "successful."
I'm not saying one can't be successful, but one has not on national level yet. Small 'd' democrats seldom make it beyond congressional seats.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I Asked The Question Because I Already See The Same Criticisms Of Obama That I Saw Of The Clintons
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 05:43 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
Without getting into whether or not the criticisms were justified then or now I can say the actions that provoked the criticisms were not at all surprising. IMH0, this a centrist nation that tilts slightly left or right depending on the economy and the mood of the electorate. Even Reagan and Bush* triangulated. IMHO, ideological purists seem to exist only in text books, academia, safe districts. and the internets.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. every US president has triangulated. Democrats have done it best
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes, but it would be a hell of a lot easier if more people had access to the truth
If you get only get your news from the Corporate Whore media, you might believe that DLC triangulation IS "liberal Democratic" policy, because they put DLC'ers on the air and imply that they're the spokespeople for the "Liberal" side.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yes, but it depends on whether the voters support his/her goals
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 05:16 PM by DJ13
For instance Obama shouldnt need to triangulate as the majority voted for him despite the best efforsts of the GOP and their MSM to label him a Liberal.

That tells me that the voters WANT liberal policies.

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Is "Small D" code for right wing, blue dog, third way, former moderate republicans who have migrated
over to our beloved party to move it even more to the bat shit RIGHT warmongering, terrorist "under every bed" hunting, tax cutting, corporation's first and foremost crones ... THAT "Small D" democrat? :eyes:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. ROFL That's just sooooo hard to fit on a ballot
:rofl:

:thumbsup:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. no, it's for "democrat" which far left wingers call themselves who have migrated
over to our beloved party to move try and move it to the bat shit LEFT because they were never able to get their own movements any real electoral success ... THAT "Small D" democrat.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Oh shit! Now I'm confused, am I conveying MARXISM or FAR LEFT WING ideology?
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 05:43 PM by ShortnFiery
You DLCers will use any pat Boogie Term that you think may have a ghost of a chance of working.

However, we all know that "Terrorism" is a tactic and "Tax Cuts" for the wealthy only make the Rich Richer off of the backs of working Americans.

You're so afraid of the obvious - the desire of the ruling elites to keep WORKING AMERICANS at each others throats ... blaming EACH OTHER, instead of the REAL CROOKS - The upper tiers of "the investor class." :shrug:

What's sad is that many members of the DLC and GOP are upper-middle class. Oh what a "screeching sound" we will hear when they finally realize that they got PLAYED. That only the UPPER CLASS will be members of "the big club" and eventually ===> "one world order."
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. you shouldn't be if you knew the definitions
Marxism is a far left idealogy.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yes and you'd add PINKO if it scored you points. Truth is that this COUNTRY is LIBERAL.
However, the M$M and right wing think tanks like "The Heritage Foundation" and "American Enterprise Institute" provide palatable BULLSHIT that keeps the hard working, but not necessarily, highly educated working Americans fighting with each other for the SCRAPS while the banks and mega-corporations get even more selfish and financially bloated.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. not at all
Marxism is an actual idealogy. "Pinko" is not.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Ever the scholar. So often you remind me of those AEI smooth talkers who come on CSPAN ...
they are so intelligent and thoughtful UNTIL you pause and consider what they are selling is AGAINST your own personal welfare if you are not part of the Upper Class of American Investors. :(
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. do you dispute what I wrote?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Yes, I do dispute it because it is also open to interpretation. I don't agree with your opinion.
The Reagan Era is at an end and REGULATED CAPITALISM will be the result if we wish to see this Nation survive.

In addition to regulated capitalism "the wealthy" will also be taxed at a higher rate. Although their selfishness seemingly knows no bounds, they will submit or the entire Country will FAIL.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. so you don't believe ....
Marxism is an political ideology?

"Marxism is the political philosophy and practice derived from the work of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Marxism holds at its core a critical analysis of capitalism and a theory of social change."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

Sounds like what you just wrote.

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Hmmm
When I think of small (d) Democrats I think of William Jennings Bryant, Thomas Jefferson, and Andrew Jackson, the latter two of whom were successful at a national level. And if you were an African American or Native American of their eras their success came partially at your expense but I digress...

I see you alluded to the bombing raids on the Afghan-Pakistan border. I am not at all surprised. After all President Obama didn't say or run on the promise that we are suspending our war against our enemies. He said he's not "against wars; only dumb ones."

Politicians disappoint but they don't profoundly disappoint me because I have no allusions about them. I tend to look at all our leaders as complex beings and not cardboard saints.

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Yes, let's just tell "all the innocents" who are killed by our intelligent smart bombs that
DEAL WITH IT! because "this is a complex issue."

I prefer to take my guidance from Eisenhower.

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust...

Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect.

Such a confederation must be one of equals. The weakest must come to the conference table with the same confidence as do we, protected as we are by our moral, economic, and military strength. That table, though scarred by many past frustrations, cannot be abandoned for the certain agony of the battlefield.

Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war -- as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years -- I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight.

-----------

It's really not all that complex. :(

Love thy neighbor as thine self + Thou shall not kill ===> Humanity in it's highest order.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. We Overthrew Mossadegh Under Ike And The Bays Of Pigs Plan Was Drawn Up During His Administration
That doesn't mean Ike was necessarily a bad guy or a war monger, just that he was no more or less constrained by what he defined as the "national interest" at the time.

Maybe there can be no perfect solutions in an imperfect world.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Obama's not an ideologue.
So it's no surprise that some here on DU--especially the rump Naderites--are already proclaiming their DEEP CONCERN about everything he says/does. For them, the definition of "triangulating" is not ramming a pure, unadulterated progressive agenda on every issue through congress unopposed and without a shred of compromise. A political impossibility, given not just the presence of still sizable Republican minorities in both houses, but the divided nature of the Democratic party itself. Still, possible or not, it's what they feel entitled to demand.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. Push Poll Fail -since he isn't triangulating.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Who Is He?
And it was a philosophical or epistemological question.

And how do we know why a politician or leader pursues this course or that course. It requires a level of empathy beyond the ken of most of us.

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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. All I know is that if Bush had "triangulated" a lot more, he could have been a better president.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. He Triangulated When He Expanded And Privatized Medicare At The Same Time
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 06:15 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
He made his base happy because he allowed private insurers in on the action and he made Democrats and older folks happy because he provided a prescription drug benefit.

He also triangulated when he accepted Lawrence V Texas decision. I am sure many of his supporters wanted him to condemn the decision.

I am really not accusing anybody of triangulation, using it as a pejorative, or surprised when it occurs. The natural tendency is to split the difference.

unnecessarily a good thing.

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. There's no money left for triangulation and the military industrial complex is ruling our foreign
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 06:09 PM by ShortnFiery
policy. The DLC and GOP are shitting bricks because "the ruse" that they have played on the American Public is no longer SELLING on the street despite the best efforts of the M$M and understandable compromises by Obama.

The JIG is up! We live in *interesting times* and employing the word "complexity" OR "triangulation" will not sate the working American with either a job or food on the table.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. All I'm saying is that triangulation is the opposite of a "stay the course" mentality.
At the end of the day, what matters is if you did what you could to push the country ahead. Bush's biggest problems (aside from being terribly incompetent) is that he was rarely open to changing his mind or admitting fault. Critical thought was a foreign idea in his administration. Obama seems to practice a "living and breathing" approach to the act of governing. I think its a good thing to not have a president confined by ideology.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. Of course. Manipulation is not leadership.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Is "Trimming", "Splitting The Difference" The Same As Manipulation?
And I see that many folks on this board are surprised that there were bombing raids on the Paki-Afghan border. I'm surprised that they are surprised.

I'm not really speaking to the efficacy or the morality of the raids. I'm not a big fan of violence so I would be unfit to be a soldier or Commander In Chief but I don't know what I would do if I was invested with that responsibility.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I don't think so, that's just head to head bargaining.
Triangulation involves playing groups off against each other, which is entirely different.

The bombimg in Pakistan is wrong regardless of what he ran on.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Re: Triangulation
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 06:55 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
Bill Clinton was accused of being the mediator between the Democrats and the Republicants in Congress as opposed to the traditional role of being their leader. And he was also accused of siding with the Republicants if not stealing their ideas and putting a Democratic veneer on them. I don't think triangulation is playing groups against each other. That's never right.

As far as Afghanistan and Iraq are involved I am not sure what the correct course is. Our presence is destabilizing but our absence might be even more destabilizing. Non-interference seems like a laudable goal but we are interfering in so many places it's hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

But back to my original point. Obama never claimed to be a pacifist so why are so many people surprised he isn't one. Pacifists don't become American presidents and the only president we had who is close to being a pacifist only became one after leaving office.

I anticipated a lot of this. There always the sentiment among some that it's ok when our guy or gal is doing it but when it's the other guy he's a tyrant or war criminal. That's just human nature. But it's easy to see in history when that sentiment goes unchecked.

Maybe the Democrats aren't prizes but compared to the alternative they look pretty damn good.

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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Pacifism aside, these bombings are a validation and continuation of preemption.
I don't think this war on terror needs a Democratic veneer.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I Think That's What We Are Getting
But I am not sure of what the alternatives are.

If I understand it correctly the plan is to move our resources from Iraq to Afghanistan because that's the "good war".

As you know terror is a tactic and to declare a "war on terror" is dumb because you can't declare war on a tactic. So the real war is on Al Qaeda. Obama hasn't promised to abandon that war; only to prosecute it more wisely. I don't think it's politically tenable to abandon that war. Look at how some people on the right are getting their panties in a knot because he wants to close down Gitmo.


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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
35. yes, but for now this must remain
a theoretical answer
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. Oh God, make it stop.
:eyes:
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Some Of These Responses Are Puzzling, Especially The Cryptic Ones
Well... A couple of random thoughts...

I wasn't referring to anybody in particular...It's interesting that some people think I was.

Yeah, I think all politicians triangulate... Even the Gandhis abandoned non violence when they gained power... Talk about being co opted...


I don't, won't wouldn't and didn't unquestionably follow the lead of anybody; even my own sainted and departed mom and dad whom I now wish I did. And not only because they were right most of the time but it wouldn't have "killed" me to follow them the precious few times they weren't.

You really think politicians don't "trim", "triangulate", get co opted, whatever... Look at so called liberal politicians' stances on gay marriage and other hot button social issues. It's hard for me to believe that these so called liberal politicians support civil unions and not gay marriage because they really , really believe that "marriage is between a man and a woman" out of anything but political expediency. I would have more respect for them if they admitted the truth that they personally support gay marriage but don't politically support it because most Americans aren't "there yet". It seems civil unions is the perfect example of triangulating on an issue.

And if you think I am singling out this politician or that politician I'm not. Civil unions are the fullback position of most of the Democratic leadership.

And the support for civil unions as an alternative to gay marriage is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg when it comes to triangulation.

Since these are random thoughts I have a suggestion for folks who oppose gay marriage regardless of their ideological orientation. If you oppose gay marriage , marry a straight person...
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
38. depends on the society..
and the government. Not ours.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
40. Yes as long as he drops certain unimportant initiatives like Gun Control.
I draw the line at Civil Rights issues (such as Gay Rights.)
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