Oh, help me. My first project here

[moderatepenguin]

apparently needs to be my mother. How the mother of a gay man can want Bush in office I don't know. She argues that everyone was all for going over and kicking ass after 9/11, and it's only now that people are complaining.

I pointed out how incredibly wrong that was, and also explained that Bush's only reaction to realizing how wrong he is was to become even more gung-ho about "liberating" a foreign country that's had nothing to do with us.

I'll have to e-mail her a few things I've found on here, and try to knock some sense into her. I could, however, use a bit more ammo than I have on the way of arguments against Bush that are as non-partisan as we can get. Anything relevant y'all can toss up to a newbie on the boards will be quite helpful.

Let the Intrafamilial Political Games begin...

[NoSunWithoutShadow]

1. Hi ModPenguin, I'm sorry nobody answered your post.

I have the same problem. It's probably because we have "low post" numbers. (But we even have gold stars next to our names.)

I'm thinking about changing my name, after the election, to "Thread Killer."

I'm also sorry about your mother, but under the circumstances, she may be a lost cause. The mother of a gay man who would vote for * may be lacking compassion.

Perhaps you could convince her to vote for Nader instead (if he's on the ballot where she lives).

Good luck and love your mom whoever she votes for.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Don't feel bad, guys. Threads sometimes die mysteriously--

just like people who say bad things about Bushco.

You wouldn't believe how many of my threads have gone into Write-Only Memory with hardly a splash.

[merh]

6. Welcome ABB!

We all have had threads die on the vine! It is a fact of life at DU and the pace things will be going from now until election, the phenomenon will be more frequent. Just hang in there and be careful.

DU is very addicting. Welcome :hi:

[cyr330]

3. Does she know you're gay?

If she does, you can use that angle on her and ask why she wants to further (legally) discriminate against her own child. . . .

[merh]

4. Welcome moderatepenguin

:hi: What issues concern your mother the most? You have to give us some idea. Go to Kerry's website and compare it to Bush's on the issues.

The ass kicking after 9/11 was for Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan. If * continued those efforts and did not withdraw troops from Afghanistan to invade Iraq, which had no connection to 9/11 or Al Qaeda, then folks would not be upset with *'s efforts.

However, * and his band of rethugs lied to congress and the American people when they said that Saddam and Iraq had a connection to 9/11 and Al Qaeda.

Ask her what she thinks * would have done during the Cuban Missile Crisis if he had been president and not Kennedy. Ask her if she believes that she would be alive today to vote for what is best for our nation. Leadership is not just blasting a nation that is considered a threat (pre-emptive doctrine) (relative to Saddam, it was a false threat, a threat based on lies and false intelligence and forgeries). Restraint and knowing when to attack and who to attack is the true sign of leadership. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, following the * policies, * would have attacked Cuba and nuclear war would have occurred.

Kerry has been to war, knows the horrors of war and does not take waging war lightly and on a whim.

The question is what has * done correctly? Did he listen to his military leaders? Did he try to get the international community behind him the way his father did in the first Gulf War? Did he go to war based on false intelligence? Did he fore sake the hunt for Bin Laden just to go to war in Iraq, a nation that he knew had nothing to do with 9/11? Did he follow his birth father's advice not to go to war in Iraq without an exist strategy? Does he have an exit strategy today? These are the issues.

Our nation is now the hated rouge nation in the international community, we are the feared aggressor and other nations (like Iran) are developing their nuclear weapons to prevent our attacks and invasions. Sadly, we are in greater danger today than we were on September 12, 2001. Then we had the support of the international communities and the terrorists were short 19 terrorists, now we are distrusted and the terrorists numbers have grown in the hundreds.

Give more specifics and maybe links can be provided that may help.

Welcome again :hi:

[seabeyond]

5. this is a huge question....lol lol lol

there just is so much. so a couple things. what is her motive. is it fear, fear of attack cause we could go in that direction. is it supporting hte troops. and yes dispell illusion that so many with him. the support #'s were high but that was out of fear and being told a handful of lies. like saddam did 9/11. nuclear weapons. little drones will fly and drop a nuclear bomb on us. but a lot of liberals, and the whole world was against., so that is quite a bit more seeing this wouldnt work

then we can talk how once he got in htru greed and ineptness he made wrong choices

how do you want to go, and what do you need

[CBHagman]

7. If Bush's foreign policy were working...

...he would be touring the world to be greeted by grateful throngs. WE CAN'T EVEN LET HIM DO THAT IN BRITAIN. Remember Britain? Our closest ally? The guy goes on a glorious state visit to the U.K., and they have to shut chunks of London down and keep Bush behind barricades, due to massive demonstrations.

On the Thanksgiving visit to Iraq, Bush was spirited in secretly and whisked away right after. Again, if there were any security there, he would visit. Clinton visited Bosnia after the war, but then again, it was AFTER THE WAR. Bush declared, "Mission accomplished" over a year ago, but we're still seeing mutilated bodies on the nightly news.

And don't even get me started on the sheer incompetence of the post-invasion plan. Looting, insurgency, porous borders -- this is "success"?!

They were warned by many, including major military figures, that the post-invasion Iraq would be in danger of looting, etc., but did they take precautions? No.

Seriously, I saw a news program about the Middle East a while back. It was hosted by Thomas Friedman, who's rather hawkish columnist and author. The whole theme of the program was how the U.S. is doomed to face another terrorist attack, largely due to its huge unpopularity in the Middle East. And these were not fanatics talking; Friedman sat down with educated young people from various countries. They all said, in so many words, that we just didn't get it.

"Anonymous," the CIA member who wrote "Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror," said pretty much the same thing. The U.S. is hated in the Middle East for its policies, not because the terrorists "hate our freedoms," as Bush claims. The author views the war in Iraq as a dangerous wasting of resources that would be better spent in other areas.

Frankly, these matters are the kind of things that keep me awake at night. It would be so easy to just sit back and be ignorant and happy. But the seeds we are sowing are going to have a horrific harvest.

And that's just one aspect of foreign policy. We haven't even gotten into the stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace process and the neglected situation in North Korea. This is not anything to build confidence in the American people, I assure you.

I'd love to talk to your mother for around three or four hours about this stuff. It is genuinely frightening. The real issues can't be explained away in a cute little sound bite.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

10. Bush touring the world is nothing...

He can't even tour the United States without sealing him in a plastic bubble and vetting anyone who comes to hear him speak. He can't even face his own constitutes, much less the world community. He is doing what he did 30 years ago, hiding out and running.

[Kipepeo]

8. Hey modpenguin

The world saw the largest anti-war demonstrations in HISTORY before the start of the Iraq war, on every continent, estimates of 30 million people. So no, the world was not behind this war.

As for stuff to bring up with her, how about Bush Tax info. from your state? http://www.bushtax.com/

You could talk to her about how Bush is a more liberal spender than Democrats. He's no fiscal conservative. You could point out how his tax cut for the rich has shifted the tax burden to states so that average people end up paying MORE (in property taxes, college tuition, state and local taxes, health care, etc) in the end....all to fund his giant tax cuts for the rich.

If she's supportive of you, just ask her flat out how she can support someone who wants to write you out of the Constitution (or at least he pretends to in order to get the homophobic vote).

[yewberry]

9. Pretty non-partisan stuff

I've had good luck at http://www.ontheissues.org --they lay out the party platforms clearly.
Also, (far more partisan) look at http://www.chuckmuth.com/newsandviews/nv.cfm for an explanation of why "real" conservatives shouldn't vote for Bush. It's a pretty good read.

Good luck!

[faithnotgreed]

11. welcome tofunut! 1st, i looove tofurkey. 2nd, thanks for the link

to ontheissues.org

i didnt know about that one and know of a couple undecideds but definitely dont want to frighten them away with partisan sites.

im going to start a thread to let others know of this site

thanks again and welcome to du!

it gets hot in here sometimes but most everyone means well and is just trying to stop the destruction we are going through.

[newyawker99]

17. Hi tofunut!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[coalition_unwilling]

12. Wow, how about the general issue of "suffering"

As in, whom does she think will cause more suffering in the U.S. and the world in the next four years? I have to admit I'm holding my nose a little to vote for Kerry (b/c of my anti-war views), but I'm 100% sure people in U.S. and in the world will suffer far less with a Kerry presidency than a Bush presidency.

Suffering is about as non-partisan as you can get, I would say.

[cheshire]

13. Does your Mom have the luxury of having a son who won't go to war?

Does your Mom have no chance of having a grandchild that will have to work twice as hard as her or her son in order to pay social security?
Does she have insurance that pays or will pay for all her meds., Physicians?
Is your Mom so insulated she does not realize men, women and children are having a horrible time just living?
Places you send her thru email could and are probably being ignored. Maybe a visit. She needs to know how bad this really is.
http://www.evilgopbastards.com/
http://www.bushflash.com
http://www.vote-smart.org
http://mystolennation.com
http://wwwhereinreality.com
This last one also goes into GHWBush's crap. This family is pure evil and the future of her family is at stake. She needs to wake up and start caring about that. Good luck

[elperromagico]

14. I've made a few people think twice by getting them to take

online political quizzes. President matches, and things like that. They're simplistic, but when a person leaning towards Bush discovers that they're actually more aligned with Kerry, it gives them second thoughts.

These little polls can be effective because they force a person to think about their own views on the issues - to make them think about the issues and then think about which person in the White House could best represent those beliefs.

It's my belief that, for the most part, the American people are more aligned with John Kerry on the issues than they are with George Bush. They just don't realize it. Now, I don't know where your mother stands on certain issues, but it's worth a try.

Here are two examples:

http://www.ontheissues.org/quizeng/XPresMatch2004/quiz_main.asp?Page=1&Clear=Y

http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

Type in "President match" in Google or some other search engine, and you'll probably find other such quizzes.

Hope this helps. :hi:

[qwlauren35]

15. A few things...

Show her the site that shows what the war has cost us.
http://www.costofwar.com/

Show her the site that projects the national debt.
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Hand her a list of Bush's "flip-flops".
http://www.kerrysupport.com/media/bush_flipflops.pdf

Take her to see Fahrenheit 9/11!!!

[chimp chump]

16. Hmm...

Maybe your gaiety doesn't top her political agenda. Maybe she thinks that Cheney is giving the wink-n-nod on gay marriage while Bush yucks it up for the Religious Right. Maybe she thinks that when gay marriage comes, it will be just like abortion and will be done by the courts and not by constitutional amendment or by legislation.

Maybe ol' mama is a little smarter than you think and has seen more of politics than you have.

Just because you and these folks are all anti-war doesn't mean that all Democrats are. Neither is your presidential ticket this year. Get used to it. That's the horse you're riding in this race.

If you want mama to vote for Kerry, I'd suggest you do the harder job of explaining to her how the vast military outlays of the past will no longer be possible as we move from the present 30% retiree rate to a 50% retiree rate and how Bush and this wild spending GOP congress needs to be reined in. So that they don't pile up so much debt that we can't take care of seniors or tax workers half to death. You can make good headway with that argument but you have to do your homework.

Most people can readily grasp this issue of living within your means and making proper priorities. Too bad Kerry doesn't have the guts to attack Bush on it.

BTW, it isn't all about your pee-pee. It only feels that way. ;)