If you believe "Obama shouldn't be criticized" or "Obama sold us all out" you're both wrong

[Taverner]

Both sides of this histrionic spectrum, are both bullshit

And I'm sick of it

Every DUer who wants to leave because someone disagreed with you? Grow a pair and grow up. Get a fucking brain. What are you, a literalist? Do you think we have to either march lock step for or against every fucking person?

If so, expect to be marching alone and unloved a lot of the time.

Look - Obama is testing the waters for a lurch to the right. Fight it, unlike Bush he actually pays attention to what people think. There's more money in lurching right, that's why people do it. So he's not the golden boy scout you expected - tough shit! He's a POLITICIAN.

And Rick Warren - I've read lots of takes on it, and granted it does give a big ass kiss in the direction of the evangelicals. But an ass kiss is not the same as letting him dictate policy. This is a red flag, but it could be just that, a flag and nothing else.

Yes, I sincerely hope all DU'ers there turn their back on Warren as an act of silent protest during Warren's mindless gibber. And I hope this issue does not go away.

But I also hope we don't think so binary in this forum that we run the risk of becoming the Democratic version of Free Republic.

[Deja Q]

1. K&R

[ananda]

2. It's not the people who are understandably and justifiably..

.. upset and outraged over this "lurch to
the right" that you should be directing
your bullshit meter towards.

It's the ones who are lurching that need
to be stopped and straightened out.

[PM Martin]

3. Obama SHOULD be criticized, and Obama DID NOT sell us out!

It is just a bad idea to have a bigot speak at one's inauguration.

[Taverner]

5. Well yeah, but tell that to Bill Clinton

He had Billy Graham speak at his

Honestly - why do we have to have "America's Preacher" anyway????

Isn't that a violation of, Separation of Church and State?

[verges]

18. It's an unofficial title.

Like the Cowboys are "America's Team".

[NJmaverick]

4. You can add your opinion to the "wrong" pile

you need to educate yourself. I suggest you read Obama's book, The Audacity of Hope. Here is a good summary, that would be a start in the right direction


http://www.wikisummaries.org/The_Audacity_of_Hope

[Taverner]

6. Summarize your point for me - I read TAOH and have no idea what you are talking about

[NJmaverick]

7. that would make a matched set, because you have no idea what you are talking about

either. You speak out of ignorance.

[Taverner]

11. Do you just like to sit and insult people and call that reasonable discourse?

I knew someone else like that once...only they were a TV Character

Are you a TV Character?

[NJmaverick]

13. Well that is much less insulting, I am in shocked and awed by your brilliant retort

good day my knowledge challenged friend.

[Taverner]

14. Good day imbecile

They say counting to 20 is much easier if you wear flip flops ya know

Something to look into Archie

[NJmaverick]

16. .....

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

26. Thank you for the link

I haven't read the book, and the summaries are very helpful in understanding where Obama is coming from.

[gblady]

8. huh?

"Look - Obama is testing the waters for a lurch to the right."

[Taverner]

12. Yes - and that's what we should harp on

And make an issue

[CTyankee]

27. I do not agree with your hypothesis. I think he believes that what he is doing

will pay off in the long run to make the politics of sexual orientation less contentious. I think he has mostly demographic reasons for believing this, i.e., the old guard of the evangelicals is a dying breed and he figures he'll have a shot at the younger ones.

I am not saying I either agree or disagree with this strategy. Only time will tell. But I do not think he is a homophobe nor do I think he is naive. It would be irrational for him to rile his base so much without having his own "good" reason to do so.

I am personally extremely interested in what he will do about DADT, DOMA and other gay equality issues. And I will be watching to see what he does, not what he says...

[Taverner]

31. Interesting...

And You make some great points - I too will be watching

[John Q. Citizen]

9. My critizism is human rights based. From "seperate but equal" to FISA flip flop, to

putting a repeat disgusting bigot at the pinnacle of the world stage, an event Four Million Peoplewill attend, Obama is sending a very depressing message about human and civil rights. The folks in charge of cleaning up the torture are some of the same ones who signed off on it.

He looks opposed, in tone, to advocating for greater human rights. He is confusing human rights with human opinions.


I think these things are fundamentally wrong, anti constitutional, and we need to say so loud and clear.

[Taverner]

17. That's it - I do think we need to hold Obama's feet to the fire on the rightward lurch

But Do I think we've all been sold down the river, and that's its time to follow Cynthia McKinney and start wearing hemp jewelry? Fuck no.

[Hellataz]

10. I agree with your post, well said.

A little rational thought among all the frantic hysteria is a good thing.
I'm not on the bandwagon that Obama did something evil by choosing Warren (bad choice, perhaps but I see what he's doing), but I also don't think that he is going to be our perfect golden boy president either. He is trying to bring us together as a country and that means being inclusive to both sides. So he has to govern from the center, doesn't mean most of his decision or choice wont have a larger liberal influence at their core. Because he does believe in many of the same things most of us liberals do. But just because he believes something doesn't mean he can always make it happen. I not for one sec, ever though he will throw the left under the bus, nor did i ever believe that he would ignore the right. He's americas president, not just ours.

But one thing to stress about your post is, Obama does listen to us, and so yes, if we disagree we should tell him, but doing so in a harsh and negative manner wont get what you want. He doesn't think like that. You need to come at him like he comes at others he disagrees with, with respect, civility, rational thought and a clear alternative to the mistake you felt he made.

[BeFree]

20. Exactly, thank you.

" You need to come at him like he comes at others he disagrees with, with respect, civility, rational thought and a clear alternative to the mistake you felt he made.

There has been shown here a great lack of respect toward Mr. Obama. And that is what pisses me off.
If I wanted to be around disrespectful people I'd go to freeperville.

Not only a lack of respect toward the PE, but disrespect for DUers in general. And a large degree of knee jerking.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

24. Yes.

It is difficult to communicate with someone if you are not aware of their communications style. Respect, civility, and rational thought will keep us from being "tuned out".

[knixphan]

15. K&R

[murielm99]

19. How rational. How intelligent.

Prepare to be flamed by the inflamed. Prepare to be shunned and ignored for trying to find a grown up way to approach this.

I think the Carl Sagan quote in your profile says a lot about you. Maybe some people here should read that.

This is the first time I have weighed in on this issue. And I have a little bit more of a stake in this than some straight DUers. I have a gay daughter whom I love with all my heart.

I think this may be the last time I weigh in on this issue, too. This place is becoming dangerously explosive. It is even worse than primary season.

[NashVegas]

21. Actually, There Are Some People Who I Wish Would Leave DU Because Someone Disagrees With Them

And it isn't the pink triangle crowd.

[Taverner]

22. Both crowds have their rational members, and their histrionic ones

[NashVegas]

23. And Yet

Time and time again, I see the GLBT people regularly hand someone their own ass when an arguing opponent tries to make a conflict about personality rather than issues.

[TomInTib]

25. The way I see it, the Problem is people like you. Common-sense types.

DUers such as you, Taverner, who actually thing things through, make me want to throw the Store Cat right through the fucking window.

But I think you're too late.

I believe we are well on the way - if not already there - to becoming the Democratic equivalent of FR. I have witnessed such exclusive, bigoted, closed-minded diatribe here that I wonder just what the hell I was thinking when I signed in this morning. And most of that crap comes from The Outraged Ones.

That last sentence, alone, will probably get me plastered on a couple of dozen more Ignore lists.

But it is the fucking truth.

Tom

[lamp_shade]

32. Words of Wisdom, Tom. It's kind of hard to laugh at FR anymore. n/t

[WeDidIt]

28. .

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeDidIt]

37. Even more

[Zuiderelle]

29. How many threads are you going to post about this?

Really.

[Taverner]

30. As many as I fucking want, thank you very much

Any other questions?

[BlooInBloo]

34. I know plenty of DUers who believe the latter, but none who believe the former....

That's the wonderful fairnbalanced bullshit to be had from the media.

[Taverner]

35. Well fine, you know different DUers than I do

I know DU'ers who say both

And I am sick of both

[Skittles]

36. what the fuck does "grow a pair and grow up" mean

grow a pair of what?

[emulatorloo]

38. To me it is weird -- from my primary research, I knew Obama was a Centrist

From his early speeches he talked about bringing people from diff political viewpoints and trying to find common ground.

This seems to have come as a surprise to lots of folks on DU.

Example -- from his acceptance speech:

"We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country. The reality of gun ownership may be different for hunters in rural Ohio than for those plagued by gang-violence in Cleveland, but don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals. I know there are differences on same-sex marriage, but surely we can agree that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters deserve to visit the person they love in the hospital and to live lives free of discrimination. Passions fly on immigration, but I don't know anyone who benefits when a mother is separated from her infant child or an employer undercuts American wages by hiring illegal workers. This too is part of America's promise - the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort."

[LWolf]

39. I don't believe either one.

I believe that Democratic voters sold the left out.