A statement on the state of DU

[Joe the Revelator]

First of all let me make it clear, I support Gay Marriage, I support Equal Rights for all People and I'm willing to work towards those goals as much as humanly possible.

With that said, let me say that I don't like the idea of DU becoming a one issue board. There are a million issues that a given progressive may have at the top of their list. My list topper is Stem Cells (which, for the Record, Rick Warren and I disagree about). I'm sure for a lot of people who have lost their job, the economy is at the top of their list. Still for others the right to choose is their hot button issue. The list goes on.

To me, no one's top issue is of any greater importance then another person's. What bothers me is that we are now in a vacuum on DU where, if one issue isn't the topic of your thread, then you get shouted down or the thread automatically gets redirected. That may have been understandable on Wednesday or Thursday, but on Saturday those who want to celebrate the upcoming inauguration and maybe talk about their "top" issue should be able to do so.

Here is a case in point:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8015257&mesg_id=8015453

I posted a thread about the first "National Poet" since the Clinton years. At first, the thread dropped like a stone. Then I get accused of telling gay people to move to the back of the bus. This is just one of many examples of how discussion has been shut down here the last few days.

Its absurd that we CAN'T talk about anything else without being labeled as homophobic,or assholes who don't understand the struggle. I get it, I promise you that I do, I just don't know how having the same conversation for 83 hours is going to change who's giving a three minute prayer at this point.

[Deja Q]

1. Sad, isn't it?

[ronnykmarshall]

Yet you come into the GLTB board and laugh about our rights.

[David Zephyr]

89. True. And we remember.

Yep.

[TK421]

2. They extended it to THREE minutes? I thought it was only going to be two?

:banghead:

[Joe the Revelator]

3. I'm trying to be consistent....I said three yesterday and I'm sticking to it

They might really throw us an okey-doke and make it 5.

[DevonRex]

4. The same thing happened to another thread early this morning

about the national poet.

[Joe the Revelator]

5. Oh I didn't know we had already talked about it.

[DevonRex]

13. Don't worry. It got sidetracked, so no. We didn't really talk about it.

And that was at like 8:00 mountain time this morning. Nobody has seen that thread for HOURS. So I'm really glad you posted it again. I was gonna go hunt for the other one and kick it, but who knows how far back it is now. You saved me the effort.

It was either Frenchie or Babylon who posted it. I think.

:hi:

[Neecy]

75. I asked if she was gay

I'm sorry if that offended. I thought, since this was the last official inaugural slot that Obama might want to do something healing like choose a lesbian or gay poet. He didn't. End of story.

Hate to put a damper on your inaugural party - carry on.

[DevonRex]

83. Oh, no, it wasn't you. It was reply #2. Number 2. Immediately hijacked.

You had a discussion further down that turned out fine. I'm talking about right off the bat it turned into a melee.

[yourguide]

67. self delete

response was meant for another.

[Zuiderelle]

6. You don't like the idea of DU becoming a one-issue board? LMAO

Yes, on DU we will only talk about Warren and gay rights for the rest of eternity. You're right... alas and alack! oh the humanity!

:eyes:

Nice start Bub, starting your very own thread to insult and condescend to us on our new one-issue board.

[Joe the Revelator]

8. I was neither trying to insult you or condecend to you

I'm just stating what I'm seeing. Bub.

[AllentownJake]

7. There is an alert function for stalking or trying to continue a fight into another thread

I suggest you use the rules :shrug:

[Joe the Revelator]

10. I'm not starting a fight or carrying one on.

I know I was going to be asked for examples, so I gave one.

[AllentownJake]

20. Just saying if you don't like the tone here

Than you should alert and let the mods sort it out. They have been more than fair during this fiasco.

[Joe the Revelator]

26. We're adults. We SHOULD be able to work this out amongst ourselves at some point

[AllentownJake]

32. Yeah that's like the idiot at my healthcare forum today who tried to

resell me on the McCain plan as people taking personal responsibility.

Use Alert if your unhappy with the tone and let the Mods clean up the tone.

[NYC_SKP]

9. The behavior does not further the cause, IMHO

It would be amusing if it wasn't so tragic.

Shouting does not a make an argument stronger.

Rudeness and meaness and bullying does not further a cause.

[DCBob]

11. DU has been overrun by angry mobs.

I am afraid to post anything for fear of being attacked as a bigot.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

18. Yup

The admin made a pretty diplomatic statement earlier today. I predicted that it would not be enough and he would have to set some kind of guidlines. This is not going to stop on its own. I am looking forward to seeing how the administrators retake control of the board.

[AllentownJake]

24. Try alerting and find out

Seriously if people are causing problems in non-warren threads fucking alert.

[AllentownJake]

22. Oh shut up

Alert is your friend. Use it if you feel people are attacking you in non-warren threads.

[DCBob]

41. Shut up?? I rest my case.

[AllentownJake]

45. Yes I called you nasty names etc.

If you fell your being attacked unfairly use the damn alert function.

[TK421]

30. Slightly off topic, but are you really "afraid" to post something because

you may be attacked? Maybe it's just me, but all I see are words on a damn screen.

Post what you want! Shit, what is there to worry about? I'm half serious where I am going with this, by the way. I just think it's funny as hell. It's not like if you post something you will hear a knock on your door minutes later and be assaulted by angry mobs with pitchforks and torches! :D

edited for grammar

[DCBob]

37. I don't like being attacked by those I have vehemently defended.

I guess I am just too sensitive that way.

[TK421]

43. Understood

I'm just reminded of this stand-up comedian ( name escapes me at the moment, I'll have to Google it ) whos rant was how different things are today compared to when he was growing up. He said something like " If someone wanted to fight you, you had an actual fight" Nowadays, it's "Hey man...don't piss me off or I'm going to delete you from MySpace"! Frigging hilarious

Now I have to go look for that skit

[DCBob]

56. Yeah. That's kind of true.

Funny.

[CTyankee]

64. Some of us just tiptoe off the stage and do not chime in. I've learned in life

to leave some things alone and they get worked out. I do not believe that Obama is a homophobe. I do believe he thinks he's doing the right thing and he has reasons to believe that. I do not know if he will be proven right or proven wrong. So there is no use arguing about it, IMHO.

Right now the gay community is going through a lot of pain and working through real grief and sorrow. It is not a good place to be. Some are feeling betrayal by someone they put their trust in, worked for and voted for. They gave their sacred trust. Now they feel like they've been smashed against a wall.

I am pro gay but since I am not gay, I cannot know the full, real extent of their pain. Since I can't, I can at least try to be understanding of what they are going through.

TK, there are times to quietly listen and "breathe with" the grieving person, as we would do with a friend who is "sitting shiva." I am not smart enough or prescient enough to know if I am right or wrong. I've stated some things as objectively as I can but beyond that no, I cannot say I "know" anything for sure.

What I do know is the misery I see all around here at DU among our people in the gay community. This is very sad.

[Neecy]

69. very nicely said, thank you

[TK421]

71. I am one of those straight guys who is quite pissed about this .....

agree with pretty much everything you said, buy feel powerless to do a damn thing about it...

except type...here. I hope you know how frustrating that one is for me, having gay friends and co-workers who I care deeply about; and you are correct when you say that you can't know the full extent of their pain..same thing here.

[CTyankee]

82. Have you ever had a moment in your life where the pain was so utter that

you truly could not get past it? I think we all have. Luckily I had a friend who counseled me, wisely, that I would, one day be okay. He didn't say "get over it." He said that I would get better. It was a difficult statement for me to accept at that moment. It took a monumental surge of effort to believe he was right. He was, and I went on and decided to be stronger and be even more proactive. It has served me well, I must say.

[TK421]

85. Well here you go...and suddenly I don't have it so bad

because all of my troubles are financial ones ( problems that everyone shares these days, regardless of sexual orientation or religion or skin color ) For all of the bitching I do about my financial situation with my credit card debt ( man, I now wish I never TOUCHED those fucking things ) I am pretty much fucked for at least the next I don't know..seven, eight years just for the purpose of catching up and keeping my head above water there. I have never known what it was like to be excluded to the point of hate crimes because of my sexual orientation or skin color....as selfish as that might sound...I am glad I haven't experienced actual hate on that level.

I will, however continue to fight the good fight...even when I'm down on the ground and bleeding from it...I understand completely why many DU'ers are so upset over this "non issue".

Many Americans, by the way HAVE gone down bleeding and screaming in agony because of what they believed in....equality for all, some of them ( maybe not all of them ) perhaps it was all for nothing....all of that blood, for nothing.

[CTyankee]

86. oh god I'm so sorry. You are in a tough position.

I used to say to myself "Just put one foot in front of the other." I made it through a lot of days just saying that. And I would cheer myself up with simple stuff, just the dumbest things I could find to help. I got out of the weeds. It took time. I lived. It wasn't easy. It got better.

I remember I bought a coat for my daughter for Christmas. I had to take an extra job telemarketing to afford Christmas presents that year. In February, she left her coat in an unlocked room at school and it got stolen. I remember asking her why she wasn't wearing the coat and she hung her head and told me what happened...

You'll get better. It will happen. It DOES happen. We go on, sometimes we start wobbly but we strengthen. It DOES happen..

Take heart, my dear...

[TK421]

87. I'm STILL trying to figure out how I will pay rent this month, since it increased

numbers are just not adding up the way I would like them to....but then again, I still have a roof over my head, and I should be thankful for that.:thumbsup:

[CTyankee]

92. Is there anyone in your community that can help you with this?

You may qualify for some assistance. You should at least check it out.

Please know that I am thinking about you and your situation. Since I have been there, I know what you are going through. It is a tough time. Let me know if I can help...

[TK421]

94. I really think I should PM you with those details...check in about a half-hour

I'm at work at the moment, and the show is just starting...they're letting the audience in now.

[CTyankee]

95. Sorry, what show are you talking about? I don't understand...

n/t

[TK421]

97. I work for a theatre...and the audience was just letting in

and the actors were backstage at curtain call...

[DCBob]

76. Well said. I feel exactly the same way.

[ronnykmarshall]

44. Angry MOBS?

Standing up for my rights makes me part of an "angry mob"?

Jesus, give me a fucking break.

[AllentownJake]

47. The Persecution of the

straight white protestant males is overwhelming on here.

Good thing I'm House WASP.

[AlCzervik]

59. That is absurd, angry mobs indeed, why the temerity of people wanting equal rights!

my god the nerve!

[Zuiderelle]

91. Angry mobs!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[firedupdem]

12. delete

[polichick]

14. Why don't all the posters who start threads like this...

...just post on each other's non-Warren threads??

[DevonRex]

16. And if you're not interested in anything BUT Warren, why don't you just post

in Warren threads. Seems pretty simple. Why jerk a thread about the new poet into the Warren issue?

[polichick]

21. It's obviously a very painful time for some posters.

[Joe the Revelator]

23. Its a painful time for a lot of people

Chrysler is closing down, jobless claims are up for another month, a lot of people are facing January mortgages that aren't going to be made, and the "holiday foreclosure moritorum" will be up.


Nobody has a corner on the suffering market. We all need to be able to talk without being made to feel like other issues aren't as important as some others. That goes both ways.

[chascarrillo]

29. Then why have you been telling folks who are against Warren that the issue's unimportant?

[Joe the Revelator]

33. First of all, I've never said that the underlying issue is unimportant

Its very important. However, in the grand scheme of things, Rick Warren's invocation is NOT important. Just as Billy Graham didn't set the tone of the Clinton presidency, I trust that Rick Warren will not set the tone for the next four years.

[chascarrillo]

50. If Rick Warren is not setting the tone for the next four years, then why is he at the inaugural?

I assume he's not just showing up for the hors d'oeuvres.

[polichick]

53. That's what's really frightening - people perceiving him as a kind of national pastor.

[QC]

BINGO! National Pastor indeed!

That is the crux of the issue, and no matter how many times people try to explain that very vital point, it gets lost in all the rationalizations: only a three minute prayer, Warren won't be making laws, etc.

Warren has for years been campaigning for Billy Graham's job, and now a Democrat has given it to him. Jan. 20 will be Warren's victory lap.

[polichick]

63. Maybe people are in denial - they don't want to believe that Obama...

...means to do this.

I don't want to believe that Obama intends for this bigot to be our national pastor either - but we have to stop him because he either does intend it or he doesn't see what he's doing.

[QC]

68. I don't think there's any way to undo this mess,

and I don't think that Obama wants to.

I think he knows exactly what he's doing with this: it's the old Sister Souljah strategy, and we've gotten it from him before.

It's simply not plausible to say that someone so skillful in politics would accidentally do something like this. He doesn't do stupid things.

[polichick]

72. Well, he just did do a "stupid thing" - he just doesn't know how stupid...

...or maybe he's beginning to get it as people and organizations write to him.

imo Barack is smart is some ways, and a little naive in other ways. He may not have understood how many people would be horrified. Everybody I know is horrified.

[QC]

80. Yeah, lots of people are surprised, to put it mildly.

Even my churchgoing mom, who is no radical lefty, not by a long shot, has been asking me what the hell is going on with this.

I'm afraid it's not just a few whiners on DU engaging in "poutrage," as some would have us believe.

[Joe the Revelator]

54. He's an inclusive bone to throw at the Evangelicals, just as Billy Graham was before him

He will not mention Gay Marriage during his invocation, and I doubt have very much to do with the Obama administration after Jan 20th.

[polichick]

57. Actually Billy Graham WAS seen as a national pastor because of all the exposure.

[chascarrillo]

65. Good point. Absolutely true. And can I just add that Clinton brought us DOMA?

... so saying that Clinton's selection of Graham doesn't mean anything policywise is perhaps a bit naive.

[polichick]

38. It's really been a very short time for people to get their minds around...

...such a horrible betrayal ~ and this is a Democratic message board, THE place to air outrage about something our candidate/PE does.

I think those of us who weren't hit quite as hard could be more understanding.

All those other problems have been around for some time, and will still be there when this issue dissipates ~ which will happen more quickly if we all stand together and demand that Obama make this right.

[DevonRex]

27. It is. It's very painful. And I understand that. Here's the first thread from today

that was hijacked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8013641&mesg_id=8013641

Now, some of us simply would like to avoid getting into arguments over this whole thing. I've been a punching bag quite a few times and I'm done with that. So, I go to a nice thread about the new poet and that is what happened.

There is no way to discuss any other issue if the same posters jump into every thread and immediately make it about Warren.

[ronnykmarshall]

48. You got it sweetie!!

:loveya:

[AlCzervik]

52. yup, my friend Scott and his husband are extremely worried about their marriage being nullified

when i really sat down and thought about the prospect of that happening in this country, supposedly the freest in the world it hit hit like a steamroller.

[AlCzervik]

15. sometimes threads sink.

[ronnykmarshall]

55. and stink.

[AlCzervik]

62. and not like roses!

[LWolf]

17. The one issue isn't about homophobia.

It's about the left being disenfranchised by the new POTUS and his administration.

It's about the hypocrisy of "inclusion" when the left is being disenfranchised.

It's about the notion that one must join with bigots, homophobes, war-mongers, corporatists, and religious extremists in order to find common ground, instead of to invite them to find common ground on the side of good.

It will be an issue for the next 4-8 years.

[Joe the Revelator]

19. Oh, I understand that its not about "homophobia"

but being called a homophobic when trying to discuss something else gets old after a while.

[LWolf]

49. Turn your conversation to the underlying issue,

and perhaps you won't get the reaction?

[CTyankee]

93. Wolsh, be still...

it will be as it will be...

[thewiseguy]

25. You were asking for it.

After getting no replies, you did say hey was not this controversial enough for you guys to respond?

[DevonRex]

28. Check out the first thread about the poet and see what happened.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8013641&mesg_id=8013641

[thewiseguy]

35. That happens because people are upset

The mockery, ridicule, and attempts to somehow make this story go away does not help the situation. In fact it makes things worse.

[DevonRex]

40. Upset I understand. Trying to create MORE upset, I don't understand.

At least limit the accusations to the threads that are ABOUT Warren.

If I go into a Warren thread, I know what it's about and if I don't care for it, I can leave. If I go into a thread about something else, but it's turned INTO a Warren thread, I have nowhere else to go.

[thewiseguy]

46. Non Warren threads often turn into a ridicule zone against those who are upset

But but but Warren this Warren that sarcasm comments. Which are very insensitive and stupid.

[DevonRex]

81. I agree with that part. However, the example I showed you was immediately

hijacked. And I mean immediately. Such a shame.

[Joe the Revelator]

31. Because its frustrating

I could post another Warren thread and have 100 replies before the sun set. I shouldn't have posted that comment maybe, but it was something I was excited about and to see it drop just to be replaced with more Warren threads was a little much.

[alwysdrunk]

34. I'm sorry but I found that very funny

The first reply in that thread I mean. Talk about single-issue poster. I stayed out of it because I assumed it would be soon locked.

[madmadmad]

36. actually, you've made it very clear you DON'T support gay marriage or equal rights for all.

if you did you wouldn't feel the need to start threads mocking our struggle, or consistently post in favor of allowing a BIGOT and HATE MONGER who ACTIVELY PERSECUTES GAYS to be given the honor of speaking at the inauguration.

just tell me this- would you still support obama's choice if he had a white supremacist give the invocation? would that be unifying enough for you?

inviting someone to speak who ACTIVELY PERSECUTES ME goes against everything that this board should stand for, and you tell me to get over it?

sadly, the fact that you can't see that this is everyone's issue, and everyone who supported obama as a candidate of change should be outraged. negotiate with our enemies? by all means yes. give them a place of honor? despicable.

[Joe the Revelator]

42. Case in point

Just to restate, I am in support of Gay Marriage, if it was ever on a ballot near me I would work towards it, and would do anything else in my power to assure that it was made legal. I don't know what else to tell you, but telling me what I do or do not support isn't really you call, unless you just enjoy the feeling of lashing out.

[ronnykmarshall]

60. Wolsh - I do not question your support of gay marriage.

What really pisses me off is that my anger about Warren is being brushed aside as some silly "shit fit".

I'm more pissed off at DU about this than I am towards President Obama.

[Joe the Revelator]

74. I understand that

I do, the closest comparison I can make is, as a Jew, most evangelicals who think that I'm going to rot in hell if not converted (my boss trys on a weekly basis) and my soul saved into their way of thinking.

I know these guys are the enemy. And as much as I want to see them defeated, I understand that one of the ways to do it is to throw them a bone now and then and hope that if you can get them listening, you can get them thinking. Maybe thats Naive, but its what keeps me sane in the face of the evangelical threat.

I do still contend, that in the big forest of this inauguration and this administration, using the invocation as the flash point is extreme, just because of the historical unimportance of the "honor". If I were gay, I would wait until Obama tried to pass some anti-civil rights law, or made no mention of addressing the DOMA in his first 100 days. Then I'd take to the streets. That is just my opinion though.

[ronnykmarshall]

78. Happy Holidays, Wolsh.

Yeah, I'm not ready to say Barack is against me. I've had to deal with Bill Clinton's failuers when it comes to gay rights. I will wait and see what Barack does. I'm glad you understand.

Thanks again ... OH MY GOD ... we're getting along!!!!

Take care!

Ronny

[Joe the Revelator]

79. It's a Christmas Miracle!!!

Keep well and keep up the good fight, and Happy Holidays to you as well.

[ruggerson]

39. Well the conversations here changed you from an opponent of marriage equality to a supporter

in the last 83 hours.

So it's accomplished something. :) (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I think you have to realize that as events roll across the world, they also roll across DU.

We had two full days on Caroline Kennedy.

The thing is with this issue, it directly affects a lot of DU'ers, DU'ers family members and loved ones.

And it has a ticking clock - that doesn't end until Jan. 20.

But it too will roll across DU, even if the anger and the hurt about it doesn't fade.

(btw, I'm totally there with you on stem cells)

[Joe the Revelator]

51. Ruggerson, once again thank you for helping me with my definitions and for clarifying my stance

For those who don't know, Ruggerson did set me straight on the particulars of Gay Marriage. 83 hours ago, he's right, i THOUGHT I was against Gay MARRIAGE (and for civil unions) because I thought that the issue at hand was "forcing" Church's to conduct Marriages. As a staunch supporter of the separation of Church and State I felt that the Government should not mettle in the affairs of the Church and vice versa.

Ruggerson, who I know finds me about as useful as lips on a toad, took the time to set me right and I appreciate it and it has changed how I word my support. It turns out I was in support of the same thing that Ruggerson is, I just had a problem with the definition.

Thanks again, and you're right, some good has come, and I'm sure some minds have been changed.

[mondo joe]

58. Your two messages here were really nice. Thank you for something good! NT

[Starry Messenger]

61. Wow, that is cool.

:)

I had that happen to me a few years ago, too. I thought civil unions and marriage were the same thing. Then I read some posts on DU. There are tons of things to love about this funny place.

[AlCzervik]

66. Glad someone took the time to explain the difference to you, i think many people thought as you did

but like i explained to my sister, if i went to city hall to get married and not a church i'd still walk out with a "certificate of marriage" because i'm hetero.

[ruggerson]

70. Well as you know

even lips on a toad have to kiss something. Kidding.

We may disagree at times, Wolsh, but I never doubt your commitment or your passion. And I enjoy you even when you're being a self admitted provacateur.

And, most importantly, I would guess that, on the issues, we're allies about 99.99% of the time.

[Joe the Revelator]

77. The feeling is mutual on all counts...

Now enough of this sweet shit. ;)

[yourguide]

73. I agree.

This is not a single issue board or a single issue party. Yet I cant come on to GDP without seeing warren warren warren.

[Fire1]

84. I'd k&r this 10 times, if I could. It's my birthday, too, Wolsh. Happy Birthday!

[Joe the Revelator]

96. Hey you get all the birthday spotlight.....

I was born in April, but HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!

[K Gardner]

88. Sad, isn't it, Wolsh? Next week they'll be flailing about over something else and coherent

discussion will still be moot.

Silly me, I'm actually looking forward to the future. Perhaps someday we'll be able to talk about it.

[BlooInBloo]

90. There's nothing wrong with one issue taking the spotlight from time to time....

Eventually it gets played out, and another takes over as The Most Important Thing Ever In The History Of The World.

It's a good way of for various issues that don't normally get so much attention to get their piece of the pie.


EDIT: It's unfortunate that any disagreement is automatically met with "you're a bigot", but that's just how DUers are.

[Rowdyboy]

98. In a few days the rage will subside and DU will return....but I still won't be able to marry....

the love of my life. Life's a bitch that way.

I haven't posted a single thread on the issue and have only responded to a few-I'm too nauseas wondering if I've been suckered by yet another cheap, lying politician. Sorry for any inconvenience you may have experienced..

Oh, most of my threads sink too, but I don't blame anyone else. Maybe people just aren't interested in the subjects I write about. :shrug: