Rev. Joseph Lowery on the position of Gays! And this is the "Liberal" !

[saracat]

I am not at all familiar with this blog but I don't like the Lowery quote!


with this blog but with this blog http://katalusis.blogspot.com/


Saturday, December 20, 2008


Rev. Joseph Lowery: “They’ve {homosexuals} never been enslaved and declared less than human"


Leading conservative pundit Bill Kristol is saluting Barack Obama for inviting Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration. Kristol’s column in the Dec. 29 edition of the Weekly Standard is titled A President-Elect's Progress: From Rev. Wright to Rev. Warren. Those who have watched Obama’s evolution from the time he was handed the nomination by the DNC and the party’s superdelegates ought not be surprised at Kristol’s support. The minute he became the presumptive nominee, Obama took a dive to the right.


......................

In debating the moral equivalence of discrimination against gays and women as civil rights issues, Kristol inadvertently calls into question Obama's selection of both Rick Warren and Joseph Lowery to pray at his inauguration. Kristol quotes Lowery, Obama’s pick to give the benediction: "Homosexuals as a people have never been enslaved because of their sexual orientation," he {Lowery} told the Associated Press. "They may have been scorned; they may have been discriminated against. But they've never been enslaved and declared less than human."

Never been declared less than human? There are obvious gaps in both Kristol’s and Rev. Lowery’s knowledge of history. According to the United States Memorial Holocaust Museum:

“The Nazi campaign against homosexuality targeted the more than one million German men who, the state asserted, carried a "degeneracy" that threatened the "disciplined masculinity" of Germany. Denounced as "antisocial parasites" and as "enemies of the state," more than 100,000 men were arrested under a broadly interpreted law against homosexuality. Approximately 50,000 men served prison terms as convicted homosexuals, while an unknown number were institutionalized in mental hospitals. Others—perhaps hundreds—were castrated under court order or coercion. Analyses of fragmentary records suggest that between 5,000 and 15,000 homosexual men were imprisoned in concentration camps, where many died from starvation, disease, exhaustion, beatings, and murder.....................

[ecstatic]

1. Kristol is a great source. Thanks for this, saracat

Let's all tear Obama to shreds over this alleged opinion voiced by Rev Lowery.

[saracat]

7. Hey, I just didn't like the quote. So ? I'll look for the Kristol article if it makes you happy.

But whatever the source, I am not happy with comments like that.

[ecstatic]

15. You quoted him out of context to cause division. YOU HATE OBAMA. We get it!

[Political Tiger]

20. Looking through the archives of this Katalusis website

It appears to be another of those pro-Hillary/PUMA, anti-Obama websites. The blogger seems to have a real love for Sarah Palin too.

[saracat]

27. I am not familiar at all with the website. I should have just posted the Kristol article or the

Byron York article but the site said it was "progressive" and in any event it was a "quote".

[saracat]

24. Here is some better context but it doesn't improve matters

The quote is from an AP article by alan Breed and is mentioned by Lowery for the national Review as well as Bill Kristol for the Weekly Standard and in Salon!

Lowery has been an advocate, of sorts, for gay marriage. In 2004, he told the Associated Press that he was “in the valley of prayer on the issue of gay marriage,” but added that he chose to “err on the side of inclusiveness, not exclusion.” Still, for whatever his degree of support for gay marriage, Lowery has declined to equate the movements for black and gay rights. “Homosexuals as people have never been enslaved because of their sexual orientation,” he told the AP. “They may have been scorned; they may have been discriminated against. But they’ve never been enslaved and declared less than human.”

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:hqjcIxWcbPMJ:article.nationalreview.com/%3Fq%3DZGU0YjE4ZWZhOGI1NjVhMzRjNDhjYzExNWUzZWUzMWI%3D+Rev+Lowerey+AP+Homosexuals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/941sqxgq.asp?pg=2

[Political Tiger]

29. That's the opinion of an 87 year-old black man

who co-founded the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with Martin Luther King, Jr.

It really shouldn't be surprising or upsetting that he might view things differently than gay Americans, but the fact remains he has been a friend to the LGBT community.

[Alexander]

25. Most of us already knew saracat hated Obama during the primaries.

This is not surprising to most DUers.

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. I'd say Matthew Shepard was declared "less than human"

First by the hateful shitheads who murdered him, then by the Phelps shitheads who protested his funeral and built a "monument" to celebrate their belief that he was burning in Hell. :grr:

Just one well known example, but far from alone :evilfrown:

[Political Tiger]

11. Lowery never said gays have been treated right.

He was speaking in a historical context, how the government of this country enslaved African-Americans and declared them property, not people.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. What an ignorant scumbag! Well, fuck him too. (If that's a fair account of his view)

[Political Tiger]

9. It's not a fair account of his view

Why get mad just for the sake of getting mad? Why not gather all the facts first?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

16. I have read your comments down thread and the context is only marginally better

Being gay was a hanging crime in the UK. Being black was never a hanging crime in the UK.

Anyone who presented that as a reason to minimize slavery in relative terms would be a real asshole.

In context he is still presenting a claim as to why the black civil rights struggle is more legitimate and that's as disgusting as the opposite.

The "who's struggle is harder" game is a game of division.

[Political Tiger]

19. The UK?

Who's talking about the UK?

[crappyjazz]

4. Thankfully his presence will erase the presence of Warren

:sarcasm:

yeah I had to put the sarcasm smiley there

[Seen the light]

5. You're using Bill Kristol's interpretation of something that we don't know the context of

I'd be curious to see the original article that quote was pulled from.

And if there's one thing I know about Bill Kristol it's that he isn't the most intellectually honest cat around.

[ruggerson]

6. Is this treating people "less then human" Lowery?

Where I come from it's called MURDERING them.

[alwysdrunk]

18. That's not in America

So unfair to take a comment out of one context and apply it to another.

[ruggerson]

23. Was this in America?

Matthew Shepard? Remember him?

[Political Tiger]

32. Yes, but was this

There's always been plenty of hate to go around in this country.

[ruggerson]

33. of course. That's my point

That's why I'm arguing against minimizing one versus the other. The oppressed may be different groups, but both have a shared experience of historical dehumanization.

[TK421]

26. What the fuck are those people being hung for? Is it what I think it is?

who took that picture? WTF?

[Political Tiger]

8. Lowery was talking about how black people were treated in America.

Taking a quote out of context and using it to slam someone because you're mad at someone else seems disingenuous at best.

Lowery was NOT talking about how homosexuals have been treated over history or during WW2.

Lowery has been a friend and supporter of gay people. why would we want to make him the enemy when he clearly is not? And why allow Bill Kristol to guide us?

"When you talk about the law discriminating, the law granting a privilege here, and a denying it there, that's a civil rights issue. And I can't take it away from anybody." (Rev. Joseph Lowery, Civil Rights Leader on ABC News, 3/13/04)

[ruggerson]

10. It wasn't until a generation ago that gay people could even acknowledge who they were

they were arrested, jailed and often murdered.

Do you not consider that dehumanizing?

Are you familiar with the history of gays and lesbians in our nation?

[Political Tiger]

12. Yes, I am

Lowery is not the enemy.

[ruggerson]

13. If he compares the gay struggle to the black one

and minimizes the gay one, then he is aiding and abetting them.

[Political Tiger]

17. Fine.

If you want to be mad and think everyone is against you have at it.

"When you talk about the law discriminating, the law granting a privilege here, and a denying it there, that's a civil rights issue. And I can't take it away from anybody." (Rev. Joseph Lowery, Civil Rights Leader on ABC News, 3/13/04)

[ruggerson]

21. I'm neither mad

nor do I think everyone is against me.

One can be fully engaged in this issue, even somewhat radicalized by it, and remain both calm and lucid, all at the same time.

So I repeat: if Lowery has minimized the gay struggle as it compares to the black one, then he does not get it.

[Political Tiger]

22. Which is why I posted his quote:

"When you talk about the law discriminating, the law granting a privilege here, and a denying it there, that's a civil rights issue. And I can't take it away from anybody." (Rev. Joseph Lowery, Civil Rights Leader on ABC News, 3/13/04)

That doesn't sound like he's minimizing the gay struggle to me.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

14. I know the UK isn't America, but do you know when sodomy ceased being a hanging crime in the UK?

I don't recall the year, but it may well have been after the UK abolished slavery.

So even with the version of context offered in this thread, which I accept with no skepticism, it's not as far out of context as one would hope.

[Synicus Maximus]

30. I don't know about hanging

But homosexual acts were decriminalized in the UK in 1967. I would guess from the last part of the 19th century the punishment would have been a jail sentence.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. According to "The Straight Dope":

Eventually attitudes softened. Though sodomy remained a capital crime until 1861, the last British naval execution for the offense was in 1829, the last in the UK itself in 1835. After that, until legalization in 1967, the act was punishable by ten years to life.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2794/rum-sodomy-and-the-lash

Slavery was abolished in the British empire in 1833: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Lslavery33.htm (trading slaves was abolished in 1807).

[JerseygirlCT]

35. Exactly. Sheesh, folks. This man is a lion of the civil rights movement

and like Coretta Scott King, he fully realizes that the fight for civil rights goes on, with our GLBT citizens. And that equality for some only makes equality an illusion.

Look into the man and his words and his deeds.

[cali]

28. Sickening attack on a great man who supports gay marriage

and who is nothing less than a great hero and someone who sacrificed for YOU.

Sick and sickening. Your hate of Obama is disgusting and this transparent post is inexcusable.

[cali]

31. And one more thing: You 're completely ignorant to have posted

this. It's clear you know jackshit about Lowery or the civil rights movement.

[saracat]

37. Not so. In fact because I do know about Lowery the quote surprised me.

A friend of mine recently pointed out that sexism and homophobia are such facts of life in our society that even people who consider themselves liberal are entrenched in bigotry. He said homophobia and sexism are far more prevalent than racism because they are more "accepted" and often less visible. This may be an example of that and BTW, my friend is a Civil Rights lawyer.

[cali]

38. you're just stirring shit in a truly despicable way. It's inexcusable

This is a man who fucking supports marriage equality and has long spoken out on GLBT rights. You care about nothing but smearing Obama. It's sick. Get some help.

[Two Americas]

40. respond to the message

Respond to the message rather than attacking the messenger.

I think the OP's points were that the whole framework for the debate has shifted way to the right, and also that hero worship is being used to limit discussion of the issues.

Your post illustrates and supports both points.

[Phx_Dem]

36. Are you seriously comparing this situation to the holocast?

Because if you are, it's a sad day for the gay community. By posting the comments from the Holocast Museum it sounds like you think Rick Warren's 3-minute prayer is in some way comparable to the holocast. It is not. And it's disgraceful that you would try to make it seem so.

This man is not even close to Hilter. Not even fucking close, and comparing the two situations only makes Warren look tame.

:puke:

[Two Americas]

39. that is not true

The reference to the the comments from the Holocaust Museum was in no way saying that "a 3-minute prayer is in some way comparable to the Holocaust" nor that "this man is close to Hitler." It was to answer a specific point.

What is disgraceful is your accusation that this is what the OP was doing. Your remarks strike me as a cleverly worked out talking point, a tactical move to discredit the messenger rather than respond to the message.

If you are going to use the Holocaust in a dishonest way to advance your argument - which you are guilty of doing, not the OP - you might want to learn how to spell the word, and also honor and respect the convention of capitalizing the word. Those errors make me suspicious of your argument, and leads me to think that you just grabbed at something hurtful and malicious that you thought would effectively smear the OP.