If DU had existed in 1963, would there have threads with titles like

[Ken Burch]

"Please K&R this thread if your sick to death of all the whining about JFK's Southern judicial nominees, Dean Rusk as Secretary of State and that Bay of Pigs/Missile Crisis business"?.

Would posters expressing fears about the buildup in a little country in Southeast Asia have been told they were worrying about stuff that was trivial?

Would the AA Civil Rights movement have been talked about like the LGBT movement is being talked about this week?

Would those demanding silence and obedience now have demanded it then?

[sandnsea]

1. It's not 2011

The man hasn't even been inaugurated yet. There's no comparison to be made between now and 1963 yet.

[Ken Burch]

3. I originally almost put 1961, but moved the date forward to mention Vietnam a bit.

The parallel is the insistence of some that debate be shut down, when open discussion can do no harm.

[sandnsea]

15. There's no comparison before JFK

was inaugurated. NONE.

[Ken Burch]

40. Actually, a lot of liberals, according to Arthur Schlesinger's "A Thousand Days"

were, in fact, expressing displeasure with the conservatism of many of JFK's cabinet appointees.

[Thothmes]

35. We were already in Viet Nam in 61

When Kennedy was sworn in a President, there were at least 300 American military advisors in Viet Nam. On edit, by the end of 63 that number had grown to 16,000.

[Ken Burch]

38. Thanks for the info. Wasn't sure when the advisors showed up.

n/t.

[lapfog_1]

2. Very likely yes to all of the above.

The Internet is simply a tool.

Other tools existed in the past. And all of the opinions you just stated WERE, in fact, stated at that time. Often verbally in meeting halls or in homes (where I heard some of them).

The internet has simply made it easier to find others willing to talk about "such things".

[Ken Burch]

4. Thanks for sharing your experiences of those days.

One of the issues Bobby Kennedy, one of my heroes, had to wrestle with in deciding whether to challenge LBJ or not was that, in doing so, he would also have to challenge continuing policies started by his brother. I think Bobby made the courageous choice, and it may have cost him his life.

[lapfog_1]

7. I am old fart now.

And I was just a kid then, and not really paying attention all that much.

In that era, kids were to be seen and not heard.

But I asked questions, and the adults all thought that it was cute, so I got answers. Sort of.

[POAS]

31. Your right, I remember it exactly as you do!

I heard in a church hallway two men talking openly about the possibility of a King assassination (their tone and language left little doubt about their feelings on the matter).

The internet is just another tool for communication but the messages of both love and hate were as alive then as now.

[ddeclue]

5. What a COOL idea....

Let's get the mods to create some "historical" DU forums set at certain points in time to discuss these ideas...

:rofl:

[Ken Burch]

6. Not sure why you think the idea is ridiculous.

Some of us remember our history.

[lapfog_1]

8. And those that don't

are doomed to repeat it.

I think I read that somewhere.

[ddeclue]

9. Trust me I remember my history and it really is a cool idea

but we hardly have enough time to debate current day issues...

It's sort of "moot court DU" is it not?

Doug D.

[Ken Burch]

10. Well, I was only using as a thought experiment on this particular issue.

n/t.

[kwenu]

11. For clarification purposes, its the Civil Rights movement not the AA civil rights movement.

In my view, no. These are different struggles lead at different times in different ways. Blacks never considered white politicians to "belong" to them in such a way as to presume a veto over an action that said white politicians took. The LGBT civil rights movement is very much a caucasian male dominated movement that has presumptions that Blacks never would have automatically assumed.

[Maven]

13. Wow. Really?

So we're just uppity.

And you're an expert on our movement because...?

[kwenu]

19. I'm not an expert. I'm just an asshole with an opinion on the internet.

But I think I'm also right. Doesn't mean one strategy is right or wrong but it is different. Either the strategy will produce results or not.

[Maven]

20. Well I can't refute anything you just said.

Heh.

But your first post is total bullshit.

So.

[Ken Burch]

16. I used that phrase both to honor the current usage of "African American"

And that movement didn't accept the "know your place and wait your turn" argument anymore than the LGBT movement of today does(a movement that does include a lot of African Americans, in case you'd forgotten the fact).

[kwenu]

29. I don't think you got my points.

The historic struggle by black people in the U.S. for equal rights has a name. It is "The Civil Rights Movement." Period. There is no appellation of "Black" or "AA." I don't think any disrespect was intended. I'm just pointing out a fact.

I agree that "Know your place and wait your turn" had nothing to do with the civil rights movement but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Black people did not have the view that white politicians in that era were one of their own and subject to certain expectations of the Black community. The assumption was that white politicians would NOT do the right thing with regard to civil rights unless forced to do so politically.

I hadn't forgotten that African Americans are a part of the LGBT movement. However, more than a few LGBT members DID forget that fact when they openly blamed blacks for the passage of Prop. 8. including blacks who were LGBT.

[QC]

12. I don't know. Did people worship JFK as a god

and consider all criticism of him to be the vilest blasphemy?

[lapfog_1]

14. His picture still occupies a place of honor in many

Catholic Hispanic homes.

At the time when he was President, he was every bit the "rock star" that Obama is today.

History has shown that he was also a flawed person, likely much more of a womanizer than any other modern President. The difference was that at that time, reporters did NOT report on the private lives of our politicians. A lot of people knew, but it never hit the press.

Sad, really, we likely have lost the opportunity of having any number of great leaders decide NOT to get into this ugly game of politics simply because they don't want the intrusion into what should be their private lives.

[Ken Burch]

17. Still up in a lot of Irish American homes as well.

And a lot of people who fit in neither category, or both, or other categories had and still a kind of Sixties Holy Trinity collection of JFK, MLK and RFK portraits.

[lapfog_1]

22. Yeah, but being in the Southwest (Arizona)

I'm in a *lot* more Hispanic Catholic homes than Irish Catholic ones. Just relating what I see.

And it's much more common when there is someone living there that's my age or older.

Still, some 40+ years since their assassinations, it's good to see that many have not forgotten them.

[Ken Burch]

24. Just pointing out how far the phenomenon spread.

I had known of the Southwestern Hispanic thing.

I think they have pictures of Bobby in homes on the res, because he was the first national politician to speak up on Native American issues.

[Runcible Spoon]

30. I remember my 65 year old 4th grade teacher getting all teared up...

and weeping when she told us about the JFK assassination. She said what she was doing at the time she heard about it; reminded me of how people talk about 9/11. I'd say she was pretty worshipful lol.

[stillcool]

37. I'm sure that anyone..

that thought he could possibly do anything good was considered a 'worshiper', until he ended up dead. Maybe we can hope for the same?

[Desperadoe]

18. In December of 1963

JFK was dead.

I'm sure if DU had existed at that time, there would have been the beginnings of some pretty divisive arguments. I don't think that civil rights, Vietnam or Southern judicial nominees would have been as controversial as you may think.

[Ken Burch]

26. Obviously, I wouldn't have meant after the assassination

(although there might have been some of the first conspiracy discussions there, and maybe some "Bobby in '64" threads.)

No disrespect to what happened on November 22nd was intended.

[rug]

21. More like, "Will Martin Luther King cost us the '64 election?"

"JFK needs Strom Thurmond"

"Anyone know a good HoJo in Times Square?"

"We'll be out of Vietnam in 16 months"

"Poll: Touchtone or Rotary?"

[lapfog_1]

23. we had rotary well into the seventies.

LOL.

I was even writing code for the ARPANET (IMPs) before my parents got touch tone dialing.

:-)

[Sebastian Doyle]

39. Shit, my grandparents had a freakin party line until the mid 80's!

And I don't think my grandma had a touch tone phone until Grandpa passed away and she moved into a senior trailer park.

[Jennicut]

25. Fun fact: Strom Thurmond asked one Democrat to speak at his funeral before he died

Joe Biden, our soon to be VP. Kind of weird, huh?

[Ken Burch]

28. That was most likely part of the "Senate as club" phenomenon.

They all socialize over party lines.

[Enthusiast]

34. Now that is weird!

Are you sure?

[Jennicut]

36. Oh yes.

http://campaigntracker.blogspot.com/2007/10/joe-jesse-and-stromboli.html

Apparently Biden was "friends" with Jesse Helms as well as Strom Thurmond whom he disagreed with both on practically everything.

[Ken Burch]

27. And maybe "will there EVER be a good rock group from the UK?" threads in the Lounge

n/t.

[cascadiance]

32. They would have complained about John Hannah being made head of USAID after heading Vietnam Project.

... which had undercover CIA agents helping train South Vietnamese government in torture under guise as Michigan State University faculty.



http://www.cia-on-campus.org/msu.edu/msu.html

And look who wrote this article...

http://www.cia-on-campus.org/internat/sinews.html

Quite a different person today...

Stan Sheinbaum feels bad about his involvement in this scandal, as do I feel about my family's involvement with the remnants of this scandal as well when my dad was in Bangkok in those days. Yes, if I was as old then as I am now, and knew then what I know now, I'd probably have been raising hell then too.

[Political Tiger]

33. I know I'm gonna get slammed for this

but I just don't see how "sick to death of all the whining" equals "demanding silence and obedience?"