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Please allow this unapologetic unashamed Christian to say why pickng Warren is WRONG

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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:47 PM
Original message
Please allow this unapologetic unashamed Christian to say why pickng Warren is WRONG
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 04:55 PM by Rabrrrrrr
Most of you who know me here know that I take my Christian faith very seriously and that it is a major influence in my life. Hopefully, all of you who know me here also know that I am a stupid, brainless person.

I grew up in and continue to remain in the United Church of Christ, the denomination that Obama was in when he was at Trinity UCC.

The UCC goes back to the Puritans and the Pilgrims through the Congregational strain of our heritage. Congregational polity and thinking informed the creation, the laws, and the structure of this country. If any one Christian group can lay claim to being the underlying foundation of this country, it's the Congregational Church and the United Church of Christ. Which is not in any way to say that America is designed to be a Christian nation - one of the tenets of the Congregationalists when they landed here was that religion and politics do not mix and should not mix. They weren't perfect at living that creed, but they did pretty well, and it made it's way into church by-laws, city charters, and state constitutions, and eventually the United States Constitution.

The UCC, and its ancestors, created Harvard - the first university in the New World - and later Yale. Our sister denominations the Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists, and Baptists created Brown, Princeton, Duke, Drew, Columbia, and some other of our greatest institutions of higher learning because all these denominations felt that one of Christians' greatest duties is the exercise of the mind, that all Christians should be literate, and that all clergy should be exceptionally well educated, not just in theology, but in arts and sciences and history and all manner of human undertaking.

And they did not have well-educated clergy simply so that the clergy would have a better idea of what God wants and therefore the people don't have to think - not at all. An important part of our tradition is the firm belief that all believers are on their own journey; that no clergy can speak for the people, and no person can speak for another; that no clergy can speak "for the church", but that people can only speak for themselves. And the people, beginning in the beginning of the Pilgrim/Puritan landing, were very disagreeable with their pastors and religious leaders, because they, too, were reading and learning and forming their own opinions.

It was a form of Christianity that was very much interested in personal piety and personal holiness, but with a tremendous social component as well, of loving neighbor and helping each other and giving to the poor, and so on.

This is a rough sketch, of course; and absolutely there are exceptions to all things i mentioned. But, in a general three paragraph survey of the history and theological foundations of the first colonists, it's pretty true.

I am not just disappointed that Obama chose Warren, but I am insulted, angry, and horrified.

Rick Warren represents a strain of braindead, authority-heavy, non-traditional Christianity that goes back to the early 1800s with Dwight Moody's Dispensationalist bullshit. A form of Christianity that reacted against education, against learning, against such worldly things as "science" and "knowing things" and, well, against the people using their own brains to come to their own conclusions. Warren is from a strain of Christianity that does not ask its clergy leaders to be educated - not educated in anything. Hell, they don't even have to go to a Bible college or seminary. Which is not to say that people who don't go to college are dumb; but it is to say that religious leaders who have no proper training ARE dumb. They are fucking dumb. They know a lot of words in the Bible, but they are biblically illiterate. They know a lot of churchy words, but they don't know the church, and they don't know far more words than they do know.

Warren's is also a religious tradition that not only doesn't require church leaders to have education, it also, because there is no real unification or body, doesn't have any standards whatsoever for church leaders. Any person can just decide one day that they are ordained, call themselves a minister, and start a church. Warren, Osteen, Hagee, Swaggart, Hybals, and so many other mega-church and Evangelical pastors are pastors simply for that reason - they called themselves ordained, found some followers, and started a church. They are accountable to no one outside their own particular congregation. And I know that in the case of Warren, he has some kind of accountability group that's made up of a few friends and his wife, all of whom are the power brokers in his congregation. NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

Warren's is a religious tradition that eschews knowledge. He's from the homeschooling side of Christianity, where kids are homeschooled not to teach them better - as some homeschooling parents do - but to make sure they don't learn about evolution, science, sex, or any kind of critical thinking, especially not critical reading of the Bible.

Warren's is a religious tradition - Christian Zionists - that actually hates Jews, but believes they are necessary because they think that Jesus won't come back unless Israel is a country, and so they support Israel at all times, no matter what it does.

Warren's is a religious tradition that focuses almost solely on personal piety - one's personal relationship with Jesus - with almost no social component, other than to try to legislate personal purity (no gays, no abortion, no sex, etc.). There is amongst his group almost no social work, except as it comes with proselytizing. The newer generation is a little better at realizing that the environment, poverty, and hunger are actually issues that Christians should care about, but they have a long way to go.

Warren's is a religious tradition that is xenophobic; that equates the United States with God Himself (and in his tradition, God is always a "Himself" with the capital H and the masculine pronoun); that thinks America is carrying out Jesus' great final plan for all humanity; and wrap the cross with the American flag. Much of their reason for this bullshit goes back to Moody and his heretical reading of the books of Revelation and Daniel, and later heretical readings of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Warren's is a tradition that really has no link whatsoever to any strain of Christianity that CAN trace its roots back to the early church, in the way that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and the way that the UCC, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and other mainline denominations, and some others around the world can.

And for thirty years, beginning when Reagan and Tim LeHaye (another evil piece of shit) put together the Moral Majority and told Jerry Falwell to head it up, Warren and his ilk have been the face of Christianity in this country, after almost 400 years of it being the UCC and other mainliners. That face has been ugly, fearful, full of bile and evil invective, has been racist, homophobic, warmongering, uncritical of government (except Clinton and liberals), unthoughtful, destructive of our schools and collective unconscious, anti-intellectual, and, I feel free to say, very anti-Jesus.

I had hopes with Obama, who was brought to Jesus in the United Church of Christ, not so much that he would vocally denounce the rightwing American fascist version of Christianity, but that he visibly and vocally support the traditional, long-standing, thoughtful, socially engaged version of Christianity that's been around for a long time and that he was raised in.

Choosing Warren - while it isn't as bad a choice as Hagee or Robertson or other truly fascist evil fucks - is a total slap in the face of every thoughtful, decent Christian in this country. Especially those of us who thought we were going to get a president who would stop offering presidential blowjobs to the jackoffs who make Christianity look like Nazism, just to pander to votes and support.

Obama could have picked the president of the United Church of Christ; or, afraid that the rightwing media would just pick that up and run it into the ground, could have picked a Lutheran ELCA Bishop, or the president of the Presbyterian Church USA, and Episcopal Bishop, or any other of a host of legitimate Christian leaders and pastors. Hell, pick a mainline pastor at random. Why not?

Instead, he chose a self-professed "minister" and supposed "doctor" (I'd like know which unaccredited school that comes from) of a "Christian" "church" who stands against almost everything that the rest of the church, at least the American version of the Church, has stood for for centuries.

I'm really, really, really pissed, and really, really, really let down. Obama had a perfect chance to say to the world, "The Jesus Crispies aren't in charge any more! Brains have come back to America!" but he blew it.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. So write to Obama on change.gov
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jetphixer Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
58. Just did
Thanked him 4 changing my dream into a NIGHTMARE I cant stand this bigot So much 4 change.TRUTH: Power corrupts Absolute power corrupts absolutey Thank's Mr Obama 4 nothing!!!No more help from me....
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azureblue Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Try this:
What is a Christian?

ans: a person who follows the teachings and principles of Christ. (Christ said this). So if a person does not, and refuses the teachings of Christ, they are not a Christian, and by definition they are anti Christ. Again, the people that Christ warned us about as being false Christians.

This is your yard stick and bedrock. And understand that Christ taught "salvation" (enlightenment) through works- His entire legacy is built on helping those less fortunate than your self- this sick, the needy, the oppressed. The key to Christianity is indeed love and human unity. The rest is second hand and religious dogma. Now grok this: Religion is the politics of spirituality.. IOW, church dogma often precedes spiritual values. And in the case of Rev. Rick, boy it sure does. Rick knows fully what Christ said were the two commandments above all others, yet he makes a point of turning his back on them so he can cherry pick the old testament to have something to support his fear of gays. Note how Rick also ignores other far more important teachings in the old testament- like selling your daughter into slavery, touching pig skin, etc. You know how this one goes already.

When I have to deal with homo haters I simply ask "What did Jesus teach us about this? Did He say to hate gays? No. Did he say to love others as your self? Yes. Did He say to help those in need, and "this you do to the least of these, you do to me?" Yes, He did. So explain to me why you reject the Words of Christ?"
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. well said!
and K&R
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yep, he could have done different and I wish he had.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. I just sent this to change.gov
"As a donor to the Obama campaign, I have to express my disappointment upon hearing that Rick Warren will take part in the inauguration of President Obama. There were any number of other pastors that could have been selected for this role, even conservative evangelical pastors. Selecting one that supported and campaigned for the passage of Prop 8 in California is a huge slap in the face to the GLBT community nationwide. I'm not gay but I support my gay brothers and sisters in their struggle to be considered as equal participants in our democracy. Please reconsider this selection and pick someone else. Rick Warren does NOT represent the majority of Christians in this nation and, I hope, does not represent the views of President Obama."
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. Only a few will understand the nuances of your opinion
If you don't understand the history of Fuller Seminary you may not understand how this is an insult to the established Church.


Its alot like the current administration's anti intellecutal assault on science. Warren represents the glossy anti intellectual assault of mainline denominations.
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. And yet Obama is apparently going to step up the plate and be pro-intellectual
when it comes to science. Not so much, apparently, when it comes to religion.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
49. I dunno. I wasn't familiar with the history, but the OP did a pretty good job of laying it out n/t
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
84. Thanks for the vote
of confidence. Why would you assume that most of us will not understand Rabrrrr's opinion? I thought he did an excellent job outlining the history and made cogent points - A lot of the DUers I see around here on a regular basis are pretty damned intelligent.



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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:59 PM
Original message
K&R
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 05:00 PM by XemaSab
:patriot:

(Have you read "Albion's Seed"? It disagrees with what you're saying a bit, but I think you would find it a rewarding read.)
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. I get it completely.
He had the chanmce to show us "gay" and "religion" can and should go together.

Once again, he blew it. :(
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. I was waiting for someone to post a long personal story
This board is so predictable.

I am an unapologetic unashamed Christian who thinks this is being blown out of proportion. It's is choice who he has at his inauguration.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Way to be completely dismissive of a long, well-put, well-thought out post
:eyes:
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Too bad
That's how I felt.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. tell me about it...we got our civil rights. buncha whiners. nt.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sorry, it's not about that
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. i wish these people would just be quiet. nt.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yep. If the Jews had just stayed quiet, Hitler never would have known they were there.
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 05:14 PM by Rabrrrrrr
But instead they were all "in your face!" Jewish, and so had to be stomped down.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. O.M.G.
:rofl:
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Well, hell and shit - it's the same damned thing. Someone had to say it.
I'm sick and tired of gays being told to shut up, be quiet, wait, be patient, blah the fucking blah blah blah...

If Rosa Parks had listened to these assholes, we'd be really fucked. If Henry Ward Beecher had listed to these silly fuckwits, we wouldn't have even had a chance for Rosa to do her thing.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. Good one.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
73. I Know! And so many of them could have "PASSED" as Christians. Buncha whiners.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. yes, I think it's exactly about that
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
54. Yeah it is about your ego
and self proclaimations of holiness, judgment of others, lack of empathy, deadness of soul, and desire to create division in the world.
Tell us again how good a christian you are. That is what y'all were taught, right? To stand on the corner pointing at sinners and calling attention to your own faithiness?
God is love. What are you?
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
67. Oh stop with all this drama
Shut up!! My goodness. You have no clue what you are talking about. You are just overeacting which is no big surprise.

You can't listen because you are so angry and this is getting pretty tiresome.

You are so off the mark that it's actually funny.

Yes I'm a christian and I'm proud of it. I have gone to the same church for 25yrs and my Pastor is gay. My Pastor believes that it's not a choice and other churches are missing the mark. He has also reached out to other Pastors and they are beginning to see the light.

So while you are condemning me because you don't know what you are talking about just shut up and try listening.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. it would have been great if he picked your pastor
instead of an anti-gay bigot.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Of course it's his choice. I never said differently.
Obama had a chance to break with the jackoff branch of Christianity; he had a chance to offer symbolically another kind of change. And he blew it.

In the grand scheme of things, this isn't anywhere near as important as what he'll actually do as president.

But in the world of the living, symbols and symbolic gestures DO have great power.
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last_texas_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. The bulk of the original post is not a "long personal story."
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. I'm very disappointed in you ellacott
as you have previously written eloquently about discrimination.

I guess, for you, it's merely whose oxe is being gored.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
53. Your disappointment is noted.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
85. Who the fuck said it's not his choice?
And what the fuck does that have to do with our right to comment?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. KICK! n/t
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. RIGHT!! The fundie nuts are NOT to be dealt with IMHO. They are MOSTLY used to discriminate and have
...always had that agenda in politics.

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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
I'm surprised the Get Over It Singers haven't shown up yet.
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thank you for your post
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 05:26 PM by roughsatori
I am troubled that Warren is part of "prosperity Christianity," which is the perfect evil sect for a obsessed capitalist country that sold its soul to mammon years ago.

I mistakenly believed that Obama was grounded in Christ's original theology as preached in the Gospels. Rick Warren is another in a long line of American false prophets. I pray that Obama is not in that same tradition.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
19. k and r
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. You were almost right
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 06:05 PM by jberryhill
Now take your God and get it out of my government.

Like I give a damn whether the delusional person picked to talk to his invisible sky being is pro-gay or anti-gay. What he is is fucking nuts either way.

Thanks.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. My God is not in our government; and I *do* care when people who have asshole gods
put their gods in my government as well.

I also don't want people putting their gods, good or bad, in my government, either.

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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. You do know that was rhetorical, I assume

People do not choose what they believe. They can be challenged, persuaded, and convinced otherwise, but people no more choose their beliefs than they choose the weather.

If you don't believe me, pick something you believe to be true, and decide to believe otherwise.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
74. People choose what they believe all the time.
What makes you think they don't?
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #26
61. People who have asshole gods? So it's about who has the better make believe
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 09:57 AM by JTFrog
friends in the sky?


Fug that.

I'll stick to worshiping the Constitution.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. You convinced me. All we can hope for now is that this guy checks his religion at the door. But
I know, that is sort of doubtfull.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. He's not going to be scoring political points in an invocation

The Inauguration is a civil ritual that belongs to everyone, and it's not as if he's going to be making an altar call for Jaysus.

"Thanks for blessing us with a decent country, help us not to screw it up. Give us wisdom and peace, etc."

The basic idea of any sectarian religious belief is "I'm right and you're wrong", but any decent preacher, rabbi, and imam knows what to say in mixed company.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. If he gave an altar call for Obama...
:bounce:
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. Fuckin' A.
:headbang:
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. Agreed.
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 07:43 PM by Laelth
A person who loathes the Constitution should not be allowed to give a speech at the inauguration of the President. A person who, quite obviously, does not believe that "all men are created equal" does not deserve this honor.

I, too, am disappointed.

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--procedural error corrected, clarity.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. When I last regularly attended church, we were members of a UCof C.
I agree with your post.

Obama blew it with this choice. It's extremely offensive to most of the people who worked so hard
to elect him.
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
29. Well said
A couple of things you will not find at Saddleback Church.

A School or any type of child care other than during church services.


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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
34. What about Reverend Lowery (Pro gay rights) doing the benediction at the end?
I'll proudly be at the Inauguration...even if I am way the hell in the back of the line. Will an asshat like Warren ruin my day? FUCK NO! Will I celebrate what Reverend Lowery says at the benediction? HELL YES!

Giving Warren any more attention than he deserves is absolutely WHAT HE WANTS. The hell with him...


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Renegade08 Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
37. You paint with way too broad of a brush.
The problem with your indictment is that you basically are doing guilt by association - since Warren is associated with a fundamentalist brand of Christianity, therefore he must stand for all the crazy stuff the crazy fundamentalists believe.

There are some huge differences between Warren and the likes of Hagee/Robertson/Falwell, yet, you just gloss over them because it would ruin your little (well, not so little) rant against Christians that you don't like being associated with.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. I'm not doing guilt by association at all - Warren IS a fundamentalist
brand of Christianity. Not as whacked out as, say, Fred Phelps.

But he's a fundy evangelical asshat. He's not as vocal on the crazy shit, but it's there, more subtly, more "Hawaiian shirt drinking a coffee praising JEEEEEBUS! during worship" kind of an innocent way.

But the nasty shit is there.

Don't let the shirt fool you.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
38. Because he is a liar and a opportunist. Yeah, McCain is in the
green room.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
39. The Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marco is the oldest university in the New World.
Otherwise, your post is 100% solid.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. Oh, my - in my somewhat western/northern arrogance, I forgot South America is New World, too.
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 12:50 AM by Rabrrrrrr
In my mind I think it old world because of the Spanish invasion being so long before the Jamestown and Pilgrim landings on the east coast of what is now the US.

Thanks for the corrective!

Rather embarrassing, really. I should have not tried to get flowery and just stuck with "in America". Oh, well. Live and learn.

And thanks for the kudos on the rest of the post.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
40. great post and yes, he blew it
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 11:49 PM by TK421
Warren...I still can't wrap my head around it, dude


edited to add: my balls itch
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revkat Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
42. Warren's credentials
Actually Rick Warren is a member of the Southern Baptist denomination. He was ordained and does have some accountablity within that structure. He earned a Bachelor of Arts degree from California Baptist University, a Master of Divinity from Southwestern Theological Seminary, and Doctor of Ministry from Fuller Theological Seminary. Those are all accredited academic institutions.

I'm not fond of the big business, mega-church model of Christianity, but you don't serve your cause by inaccuracy.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #42
55. Ah, that figures!
The Southern Baptists came into existance when they split with the rest of the Baptists over their embrace of slavery and white supremacy. Yes, they finally got around to 'apologizing' for that in, ready? 1995. 95. Sorry about slavery. Not 1895, 1995.
In 1968, only 11% of Southern Baptist churchs would so much as allow African American people into a service. That is again,1968, not 1868.
Here's Warren's take on SoBaptist history: says he "loves the fact that historically the SBC has emphasized Gods five purposes" for the church."
So there you go. You are right. He is a Southern Baptist.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #55
62. Yep - Southern Baptist who went to Fuller.
Whoopee.

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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
43. I could not have said it any better.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
46. self delete
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 01:32 AM by balantz
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
47. Amazing post. Proudly rec'd.
The only thing I would add is that Warren is foremost among the Prosperity Pimp crowd, and that alone should give anyone pause.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
48. many, many important points
Much of the "religious right" is an extreme right wing political movement masquerading as religion, in my view.

I have been to quite a few services where there is little or any mention of the teachings of Jesus, but lots of political haranguing on a handful of issues - the usual suspects - and super nationalism, and a lot of socializing, hyper ventilating, emoting, and swaying and partying down - all extremely self-righteous and arrogant. There is no religion there, except as an excuse and cover for racist, intolerant, anti-intellectual and hateful points of view. There is often no Gospel reading, no contemplation or reflection, no humility, no sacrifice, no discipline, no traditional music - just pop music with some highly questionable emotional and narcissistic "Christian" lyrics - and all of that in a commercialized copyrighted for-profit context (the great hymn writers from the past donated their work to the churches and to the public, for the greater glory of God, not to cash royalty checks.)

At one service a while back I heard "Bush" mentioned 17 times and Jesus mentioned twice. The only prayer was for the purpose of asking God's help so that "we" - good Christian white Americans - would kick the asses of heathens and infidels in Iraq. Disgusting. When I tried to get a discussion about theology going afterward, I got nothing but blank stares.

As you point out, anyone can declare themselves a minister, hang out a shingle, and be in business. The easiest way to build a congregation is to make people feel good and reinforce and inflame their prejudices. Throw the name of Jesus out once once a while, and presto! you are "Christians" and not to be questioned.

Thanks for the great post.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
50. Really well written
I'd say also that the personal piety the RWers focus on is of the type expressly frowned upon by Christ; a shallow and often public spectacle that involves raising one's hands but seldom one's heart.
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Fire_brand Donating Member (443 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
51. I think you generalize about evangelical churches too much
I am a member of a church that some probably would call "evangelical" (though we don't call ourselves that), and my church doesn't at all fit your characterization of my church. You seem to suggest that churches outside of the old, mainline denominations are less legitimate because they don't have a connection to the early church, and I find that highly offensive. Talk about top-down authoritarianism, huh?

Also, your line about Warren doing no social work outside of proselytizing is just not true.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #51
60. Of course!
Warren also organizes with other 'faiths' to oppress minorities he does not like, in the grand Souther Baptist tradition.
How amusing that you are highly offended. What was done to you? What was said about you? What standing have you to be offended? Does your scripture not teach you to rejoice when others mock you for righteousness sake? So do you simply reject that teaching, along with the others you don't like? Why are you bitcing instead of rejoicing?

I note you don't even bother to refute the OP's claim about Warren's lack of social work with fact. You give nothing but hot air, finger pointing and pearl clutching.

Your scripture teaches, nay, commmands that your 'yes be yes, your no be no' and yet you are saying you are 'not evangelical' while being offended at what was said about evangelicals. So you are offended in the name of others? Or yourself? Is your yes a yes?

Is there a speck in your brother's eye that bugs you?
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
80. One of the problems with the word "evangelical" is that Evangelicals have stolen it
All Christians are evangelical by dint of their baptismal vows (assuming they used the historical baptismal vows of the church, and not some newfangled asinine vows that the southern baptists or Rick Warrens of the world might have invented) - evangelical meaning simply to be evangels, bearers and proclaimers of the Good News.

However, some church denominations have used Evangelical in their names, some individual churches use it in their names, and Evangelical is also a typology of a specific Christian expression that includes a number of denominations and the majority of non-affiliated congregations (Assembly of God is in this, pretty much any church that calls itself "so and so Bible Church" or "So and so Free Church", and pretty much all the mega-churches fit this category as well).

It's this last group of people, who call themselves Evangelical as an adjective and not as a name, that create the problems. This is the group Warren, Falwell, Phelps, Hybels, Robertson, Osteen, and so on are all in in it - the National Evangelical Association which was in the news so highly a year or so ago when the lead guy was caught fucking a boy or hiring a prostitute or some other behavior that these leaders tend to always do (though do note that this is NOT an organized group with any ecclesiastical authority, it is only an association).

So we have them giving a bad name to "evangelical".




While at the same time, the United Church of Christ - fantastically liberal for the most parts - has in its predecessor bodies the German Evangelical Church. There is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is a progressive and liberal mainline expression. As well as some others.

So it's confusing.



Now, as to your comment "You seem to suggest that churches outside of the old, mainline denominations are less legitimate because they don't have a connection to the early church, and I find that highly offensive. Talk about top-down authoritarianism, huh?"

Yes, I do tend to believe they have less legitimacy, for the sole reason that Christianity is a communal expression of faith. Those churches that exist outside the historical line tend also to be separatist, individualistic, and go-it-aloners (a sideline of the way that they totally buy into American culture and call that "Christian"), and so there is no outside accountability in those churches. They are not in dialogue with the rest of christendom. They don't do things ecumenically. They might work together to protest gays or go lynch a black guy or wrap another American flag around a cross that they put up in the courthouse, but that's it. They have taken themselves outside the Christian community, and by doing so, have, in my opinion, left the church.

Christianity cannot exist outside of community, nor outside of dialogue and internal debate and challenge of one another.

It's not top-down authoritarianism at all. It's asking those who claim to be Christian to come sit with the rest of us, not arrogantly sit alone outside claiming they are one of us while at the same time shunning, dispensing, and discarding everything that has ever made the church. That is another part of the Evangelical movement that so offends me - it's so bought into the America individual idea, it's really just nationalistic cultural triumphalism cloaked in Jesus, and it refuses to speak with any of the other parts of the body.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
52. K&R
You're hardly stupid and brainless, ya know.

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative.
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jetphixer Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
56. I"M a UNITICK
I go to unity church They accept ALL Religions Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist,etc Unity is basically a Christian following,It teaches the Christian Bible but with a different twist,as in Metaphysical, It promotes the theory of attraction. Now having stated my religious position an beliefs I find this Warren guy REPULSIVE,UNFAIR, AND A BIGOT, Mr Obamma Just screwed a wonderful thing into a super SHAM Sorry Mr Obama But i will miss your inauguration on the tellie This person makes me wanna go in hte toilet and VOMIT !!! Enough said on that I recon we just elected more of the same Thanks 4 nothing an can i have my $ i contributed back?
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
57. Thanks from my heart...
I love your post. You are showing a great deal of love and respect for your faith as well as for other people. I usually call upon religious people on DU to 'clean their own house' rather than bitch about being 'persecuted' or lumped in with haters. You are actually doing that, unasked, with great skill and might I say, grace. You are a good steward.
I want you to know that I for one know the difference between UCC and the likes of Warren. UCC has been sterling in so many difficult times. UCC always errs on the side of love. They have often taken the burdens of others as their own. UCC members and ministers and choirs have stood with me and mine, physically and strongly, for as long as I have been an activist. When I first heard of Obama's run for President, I looked up his church. When I found it was Trinty UCC Chicago, I was thrilled! It was that connection that was the first endorsment for me. Rev Wright, who like me can get rhetorically out of hand at times, has usually been righteous with his actions toward others, and he and his church have been heros to me. Many times over. Wright has taken the burdens that are not his own. Trinity and other UCC congregations were beside deathbeds so hard to bear that some parents could not visit or would not visit dying children. UCC people did. I will never forget that, no matter how others may sully the very notion of chruch and faith. I'll never forget those people, they are my brothers and my sisters.

But mostly I just want you to know how happy this posting made me. A ray of light.
Peace
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FloridaGrl Donating Member (615 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
59. Obama includes everyone
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 09:55 AM by FloridaGrl
and shuns no one that's the trait I admire most in him. This is the change I hoped for. It does not mean he's adapting to Warren's principles. I'm a fellow Christian who thinks his actions are what Christians are called to do. I think we are going to see great changes happening in the christian world with Obama as an example. He's showing love and tolerance even to people he doesn't agree with. This is Christianity.
Edit to add: Look at the big sham of a forum that happened at Warren's church. If Obama was a hateful man, he would not want to have anything to do with Warren.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
63. Excellent post
n/t
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
64. This a good exposition of Warren. K&R
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
65. good OP
However, there are many people he speaks with and involves in his decision making whose policies and stances I do not necessarily agree with, but I like that he is including them in the dialogue. Including people is not the same thing as endorsing what they do and how they do it. I hope the fundy base of Warren's will see this as a move to RELAX and stop their craziness re Obama. Perhaps I am being selfish, but the more they relax, the less threat there will be to him furthering his progressive agenda.

I thought the OP was really well written, and it reminded me of many things I had forgotten re religious history. I appreciated reading it and I don't agree with Warren at all. But I remain open to him and his followers in terms of their right to believe what they chose, while at the same time drawing a line at any kind of religious legislating (e.g., anti-abortion, anti-gay, etc).

It's depressing to me that so many want Obama to make a show of our agenda and think he is being a traitor when he includes others whose agenda disagrees with our own. In my mind, that is what a progressive liberal does. And he's way too smart to allow his policy to be informed by a person such as Warren.

Many here have their own reasons for disliking Warren and his kind; my personal dislike for their beliefs stems from the anti-feminine, anti-choice stance they take. I do not want to be a breeder, owned by my state and served up as a vessel through which to build a Christian army. Call me crazy, but that doesn't sound like fun to me....

I'm still OK with this invitation. I'm sorry to all here who are so upset by it, though. Thanks for the great OP.
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #65
78. But...
I can agree with everything in your post except the conclusion. There are any number of Christian ministers out there--most that are against gay marriage--that would have allowed the president-elect to be inclusive. To select one with the lightning rod baggage this idiot brings with him was a flat out mistake. It was not necessary to insult part of his costituency by inviting this divisive, insulting bigot to the celebration.
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. thid divisive insulting bigot
(hee hee, I like how you put that) has a lot of followers and a name that is highly recognizable. Already his people are upset with him for considering this. I like that and I think it diffuses them a bit, which is the direction I would like to see that movement go...


BUT I get your point. I'm sorry this is upsetting to you :-(
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
68. Thank you for the thoughtful
essay, Rabrrrrrr. (Yes, even though it's written in a state of outrage, it's graceful and illuminating.)

I too hate to see a sort of Presidential imprimatur put on this branch of Christianity, which overall strikes me as shallow and too bound to our commercial culture. No wonder the mainstream churches are losing membership! With this variety the ONLY one that's commonly visible in the media, lots of people think the fundie version IS Christianity. I must say this affects self-styled atheists as much as anyone else; otherwise we wouldn't read so many goofy references to the "sky-god" whom they disdain.

All I can hope is that Obama is doing this as a gesture to make right-wing religionists happier with him while he carries out the same policies he's already announced. You know, the "Paris is worth a Mass" rationale. However, I still don't like it. It does come across as a slap in the face to mainstream Christians, and of course particularly to gays and to feminists.

Lots of good info. in the comments too. What's the deal about Fuller, BTW?
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
69. "Wrong"? It's politically STUPID -- Warren would throw Obama under the bus in a flat second
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. Yep - Warren cares about Warren, and he found that God is a good path to get people to love Warren.
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 04:30 PM by Rabrrrrrr
He'd also drop Shrubbie under a bus in a flat second.

Any of the mega-church and televangelist assholes would.

They're solely in it for themselves. Oh, sure, maybe some people get helped along the way, maybe even some good gets done, but not until they dip what they want from the till first, and not without a far larger trail of destruction and ruined lives behind their custom-tailored suits, mansions, and private jets.


The only thing in the phrase "President Elect Obama" or "President George W. Bush" that Warren cares about is "President". That is, the fact that he's hobnobbing with the president is all that matters; doesn't matter who the president is. The name and the body and the politics are irrelevant.

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
70. I am SO bookmarking this! *hugs*
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
71. PE Obama was just on TV and reminded me that he went to Warrens church
before the election - that worked out real well, as during the same time Warren was actively
fighting FOR Hate 8!

That's outreach that is NOT change or hope.

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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
72. God, for a minute there I thought you wrote "picking ON Warren is wrong"
Whew... Glad I read that wrong.

Good post, by the way!


:thumbsup:

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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
77. I can't help but
bookmark this thread because it's too late for me to recommend it.

I am so with you it isn't funny. Brilliantly done. :applause:
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Rudyabdul Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
81. People Please...
Warren is just giving a 1 minute prayer, he is not going to be making policy choices for the next 4 to 8 years.

I was a little disappointed that he chose Warren because I thought that there were better choices out there but this ideological pettiness coming from so called Progressives is ridiculous and childish. Obama is not even president yet and we are already writing him off over something so small as who is giving a prayer at is inauguration.

You whiners are driving me fucking crazy! :grr: Democrats, please stop this incessant complaining and grow up! :mad:
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
82. Excellent post. I agree. n/t
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jaundicedi Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
83. Well said.
You remind me of my grandfather a bit (old ULC Lutheran). I always wonder how these people think that virtue can have any value if it is compelled. I chose to become a Pagan but I honor and respect the spirit of the kind of Christianity you practice.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
86. Totally agree with you.
On all counts.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
87. kick
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