Illegal spying w/o warrants, no fly lists, torture, pre-emptive wars, no habeas

[ddeclue]

none of this has prevented the attacks in India on Americans...

Destroying our Constitution and throwing our principles overboard has done nothing to stop these people.

If a 20 year old high school drop out named Johnny Walker can infiltrate Al Qaeda all on his own, why can't our CIA do it with its billions of dollars and thousands of people?

The reason seems obvious to me: We need to focus on learning the language and culture of the terrorists and learn how to blend in and infiltrate in the way we USED to do during WWII and the Cold War.

Today's approach of destroying the Constitution, creating laws and rules that the terrorists know too and work around, and using high technology as a substitute for infiltration and on the ground spies just doesn't work and in fact hurts us more than it hurts those who use terror.

Doug D.

[WinkyDink]

1. Your final sentence explains it all, really: "in fact hurts us more...."

[Blarch]

2. You missed the point.

Destroying our Constitution and throwing our principles overboard has done nothing to stop these people.

It doesn't matter if these violations did "stop those people" ...It is a crime against our nation either way.

[ddeclue]

3. No I UNDERSTAND that...

that goes without saying...

the point is that it is all for nothing...

as Franklin said:

They that give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither.

Doug D.

[RollWithIt]

4. I don't think Walker is really a good example overall

He joined the Taliban, not Al Qaeda. They weren't one and the same at the time. Walker was just a religious fanatic. He joined pre-911. In fact, when interview he stuck with the story that he had no idea what happened on 9/11. He actually passed lie detector tests. Why else would he only get 20 years when multiple CIA guys got killed?

With that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the CIA had some deep cover agents in place by this time. The problem with that kind of practice is that they have to go over when they're young (18-20) which means they're fresh in the military and handpicked from thousands of candidates and then trained and weeded out before they even sniff the region. Plus, an adult would never accept that kind of assignment unless they had no family.

[coalition_unwilling]

7. John Walker Lindh is a political prisoner. There is strong

circumstantial evidence that he was tortured by US forces while in US custody and eyewitness testimony that he was denied access to an attorney (in direct violation of his Miranda rights).

We will probably never know all the indignities that were visited upon him, as the plea deal imposed a gag order on Lindh about any rights violations he suffered pre-indictment.

The Taliban were at war with the Northern Alliance, not with the US. And if being a fanatic is now a crime . . .

[AtomicKitten]

5. Let us hope we have seen the end of kamikaze foreign policy.

[Thothmes]

6. How many operatives did we have in

the OKW or OKH. How many on the Imperial Japanese Staff. We learned during WWII that we could legally send 120,000 people to concentration camps on the charge of being Japanese.

[stillcool]

8. I don't think the attack in India..

targeted those...what is it..3 Americans? Although, I'm sure those however many American deaths could be a good enough reason to go to war with Iran.

[ddeclue]

9. according to the news they were looking for Americans and Brits.

and apparently also targeted Jews as well.

Doug D.

[stillcool]

12. I don't think they know..

who is behind it yet, do they? Check this out...

South Asia
Nov 22, 2008

Faith in India's army shaken by blasts
By Sudha Ramachandran

BANGALORE
- Investigations into recent bomb blasts in India have led to the arrest of several Hindus and for the first time ever, a serving officer of the Indian army.

The arrests have triggered heated debate on whether the arrests indicate the existence of "Hindu terrorism". More worryingly, the probes point to the possibility of the hitherto secular and apolitical Indian army being infected by the communal virus.

Six people were killed and over 80 injured in blasts on September 29 in the Muslim-dominated town of Malegaon, about 260 kilometers from Mumbai. A few hours later, a bomb went off near a mosque in Modasa town in Gujarat, where Muslims were offering special Ramadan prayers, killing two people.

Investigations have led to the arrest of about 10 people, including Ajay Rahirkar, Sameer Kulkarni, Rakesh Dhawade (all members of the Hindu extremist organization, the Abhinav Bharat), Dayanand Pandey (a self-styled Hindu "guru") Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur (an "ascetic" who is a member of the Durga Vahini - the women's wing of the Vishva Hindu Parishad - and the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad - the students' wing of the Bharatiya Janata Party - BJP).

These were not members of fringe, underground outfits but people with links to the BJP and its fraternal organizations. Thakur, for instance, is known to be close to BJP president Rajnath Singh and Madhya Pradesh chief minister Shivraj Singh Chauhan. There are photographs of her with these BJP bigwigs. Investigations are revealing that their activities might have been funded by business houses as well.
--
But even as Indians are heatedly debating whether "Hindu terrorism" exists, another worrying issue has been thrown up by the investigations. Three men arrested in connection with the Malegaon blasts are from the armed forces. They include one serving officer, Lieutenant Colonel Prasad Shrikant Purohit, and two retired officers, Major Ramesh Upadhyay and Colonel Shailesh Raikar.

Thirty-eight-year-old Purohit has the dubious distinction of being the first serving officer of the Indian army to be arrested in connection with a terrorist attack. He has been described as the "mastermind" of the Malegaon blasts. He allegedly procured the explosives (he is said to have provided RDX from the army depot) and funding for the blasts, provided training and co-ordinated the blasts. He is said to have arranged for fake military ID cards
providing access for Abhinav Bharat activists to army bases. Purohit is said to have worked several stints in military intelligence. His role in several other terrorist attacks over the past few years, including the February 2007 bombing of the Samjhauta Express or Friendship Train linking Delhi with Lahore in Pakistan, is now under the scanner.

and then there's this...

A group identifying itself as the Deccan Mujahideen said it was responsible, per emails sent to news organizations. Virtually nothing is known of this group. "Deccan" is an area of India and "Mujahideen" is the plural form of a Muslim participating in jihad. Security officials believe it unlikely an unknown group could carry out such a precise and heavily-armed attack.

It is more likely to be the work of the Indian Mujahideen, an Islamist group that has claimed responsibility for other attacks in India. On Thursday morning, speaking from inside the Oberoi where foreigners are being held hostage, a man identified as Sahadullah told India TV he belonged to an Indian Islamist group seeking to end the persecution of Indian Muslims: "We want all mujahideens held in India released and only after that we will release the people."

No one knows how the terrorists arrived in the city. One theory is that they came from the sea in an explosives-laden boat. But there is no doubt about their agenda.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JK28Df01.html

[ddeclue]

15. That is not the point, the attackers specifically sought out Americans,

Brits, and Jews - regardless of who they (the attackers) were.

[coalition_unwilling]

10. I agree with the general tenor of your post, but

I wish to offer one significant (albeit mild) corrective.

In your title, you use the phrase "pre-emptive wars" (a reference, I believe, to the 2003 invasion of Iraq). This language adopts, perhaps unwittingly, an especially pernicious piece of RW propaganda, to wit, that Iraq constituted an "imminent threat" to the US, thereby justifying an invasion to "pre-empt" the supposed threat.

"Pre-emptive wars" are legal under international law and the UN charter, provided there is an imminent threat that is real.

The reality, however, is that Iraq posed no such threat. Hence, there could be no pre-emptive war . . . because there was nothing to pre-empt.

Iraq is better thought of as a "preventive war" (to prevent the emergence of a possible threat in the future). Such war is a violation of international law, according to principles laid out at Nuremburg as the supreme crime against the peace.

Bush telegraphed his intention to violate international law when he gave a speech at West Point in Sept 2002 where he presented the new National Security Strategy of the US. And, as Vincent Bugliosi and others have demonstrated, Bush's hare-brained suggestion in January 2003 to a high-level British envoy that the US and Britain provoke SH thru some Operation Northwoods redux proves decisively that Bush knew there was no threat, imminent or otherwise, from Iraq.

Now whether you should edit the title of your post . . . :)

[ddeclue]

14. I think this is picking nits...

I view the Iraq war as optional, immoral, unconstitutional and illegal.

Doug D.

[coalition_unwilling]

16. I thought my smiley at the end

suggested my nit-picking tendency was at work (My wife agrees with you, btw :) Seriously, though, is it "nit-picking" to insist on a meaningful distinction between legitimate self-defense and willful first-degree homicide?

Only wished to point out that "pre-emptive wars" are legal under international law, wheras "preventive wars" are always illegal, unless (and only if) sanctioned by a UN Security Council resolution.

Thus the crime has been committed. Now for a court with appropriate jurisdiction in which to prosecute . . .

[dailykoff]

11. My guess is that the abuses don't prevent terrorism because the terra

is produced by the same geniuses who produce the abusive legislation. This Mubai business really stinks IMHO. How very convenient that we have a new frontier in the war on terra.

[Hippo_Tron]

13. We can't stop people from strapping bombs to their chests and blowing themselves up

There are things we can do to address the problem but it's not going to go away. The entire "War on Terror" paradigm is ridiculous.