Howard Dean Tax Calculator, How Much Will It Cost You?

[Buffler]

After seeing posts on Clark's tax calculator for people to see how much they would save under Clark's plan I did some quick searching around to try and find a Dean calculator.

I wish the source was different, but it is what it is.

Here is a link to the calculator.

http://www.clubforgrowth.org/taxsavings2004.php

My tax increase under Howard? $4,488.87!!!

Thanks Howard!

As a disclaimer, I am neither a Clark supporter nor a Dean opponent. I am an ABB.

[Renew Deal]

1. about $500

Thanks Howard. My student loan holders appreciate it.

[papau]

16. Sorry - Club for Growth is my neighbor Norquist's web site - so its lies

Ever since he started whoring for the GOP, the oil folk, the Arab leaders (I guess all that is redundant) he has spoken out of both sides of his mouth with split tongue - he lies a lot!

:-)

http://www.turbotax.com/calculators/lawchange/notemplates/

The turbo tax calculator says a 40000 adjusted gross income for married no kids gets a $333 tax cut.

Norquists lie via his calculator is $955.15

Not that Norquist lies more than the media - that would be hard to do.

[OrAnarch]

29. Better Calculator: Tax Reciept from 1999

Bush cut your taxes by 500, or are you just blindly taking the word of a right-wing site? Dig out your old reciepts, and remember the state of our nation when you were paying that amount. If your 500 is so precious, vote Bush. Otherwise, vote for Clinton's tax plan, and enjoy the benifits you'll reap from living in such a liberalistic environment. Liberalism is one thing that definately aint free, but I assure you its cheaper than the right-wing will tell you.

[PVnRT]

2. I doubt the veracity of this calculator

Not because I am a Dean supporter, but anyone that has links to "RINOs" (Republicans In Name Only) seems pretty clearly to be a far right-wing site - are they using the right formula, or are they just applying some general, biggest-increase-possible method and claiming that it is Dean's?

ON EDIT: Furthermore, on their home page, the mission of the site is "to help conservatives take action against the crazy liberalism put forward by the Left." Yeah, this is an unbiased source. Not to mention them calling Dean's policies "extreme liberalism."

[Buffler]

6. Like I said

I wish the source was different. Do some searching to see if you can find another Dean calculator and see how its numbers jive with this one.

Hey, maybe Dean has one on his site!! Ya right.

[PVnRT]

10. If Dean repeals the Bush tax scam

Then the only ones who will lose big are the top 1%, who get cuts on the order of five figures a year. Most Americans get under a thousand dollars a year cut.

Besides, he's said he wants targeted middle-class tax cuts, not tax cuts for the wealthy. Do you support tax cuts for the wealthy?

[Buffler]

15. I am far from the top 1%

and my hike would be nearly $5,000!!! I would call that "losing big"

[w4rma]

19. What part of Bush's tax cut gave you a

$5,000 cut? Also, what is your income tax bracket?

[PVnRT]

20. In one year? Bull

Unless you're making six figures, and I mean higher six figures, there is absolutely NO WAY IN HELL that Bush's tax cuts are saving you that much per year.

[cjbuchanan]

12. You're the one that post this

So you are the one that should find an independent calculator.

Again, IMHO it is really weak of you to use a repug site to justify anything.

[Buffler]

13. Like I said

It was the ONLY one I could find. Howard sure as hell doesnt have one on his site.

[cjbuchanan]

40. Would you trust one on Howard's site?

I'm guessing you would not.

But the site you mentioned is so far to the right that it is disgusting that you would use it to argue your point at DU. You say it is the only site you can find on it, but that does mean anything. If I found a site that says that John Kerry sells children to fund his campaign and that site is operated by repugs, does that mean I can start a thread saying that John Kerry sells children to finance his campaign? And if anyone calls me on it, can I ask for him or her to find a site that says that Kerry does not sell children? I think not.

Anyway, back to the issue you bring up. Do you know how they came up with these numbers? Do you have any way to verify them? I'm guessing no. I must say that until you can back this up with something independent, your argument is non-existent.

[OrAnarch]

47. He doesn't need one...

You allready know what you paid before Bush was in office. Period. Thats what youd pay under Dean...Same as Clinton.

[Langis]

3. Howard Dean Will Cost You about $0.00

Go Dean!

[OrAnarch]

4. Wouldn't it just be the same as under Clinton?

No big deal...we lived through years of that.


In truth, I got money back during those years being a student, with full Pell grants and government aid for school. Too bad my younger counterparts no longer recieve such aid.


But for students in the middle lower class, hell, Id rather revert to pre-Bush tax disaster...I would assume everyone would.



Club for Growth? I think Fox News is more reliable and credible, with less of an agenda, but one nontheless.

[RUexperienced]

5. We are in deep trouble if Dean gets the nomination

[Buffler]

9. I disagree

While I do not think Howard has the best shot at beating Bush I do not think his nomination constitutes "deep trouble". I remember republicans hoping and praying for Clinton to get the nomination in 1992 as they pegged him to be an easy mark.

[OrAnarch]

11. Yes, imagine reverting back to Pre-Bush Tax disaster!

Everyone just hated the "Clinton TaxeS" and living in that terrible economy. Oh my, how horrible would that be to have a government with funds for social services and federal aid. Oh my, I couldn't imagine. Wed be in deep trouble if we proposed bringing back the Clinton Tax plan.

[PVnRT]

14. Not to mention a surplus!

The horror....the horror....

[RUexperienced]

26. American voters: "If I vote for Dean, my taxes go up $1956"

Who would do that?

If you want to donate an extra $2000 to the US Treasury, please do.

When figuring taxes this year, are you going to use Clinton's tax rates or Bush's lower ones?

Even the most ardent Dean supporter is not giving extra money to the government. So why should the average American family who is struggling to make a living be forced into higher taxes?

If this isn't a loser issue, I don't know what is.

[OrAnarch]

32. Then Clinton's Plan was wrong?

And Bush's is right and hence, he is more electable? Is that what you are essentially saying?


BTW, Id gladly donate whatever extra if liberalistic programs are being funded which secure the social structure and ensure a fruitful environment for our posterity. To run a society that neglegts, through social services, the lower class, is to run a society towards the brink of social unrest. In any such environment, instability is a gaurentee...the only question remains: how long?

[RUexperienced]

37. The middle class will not be choosing between Bush's plan and Clinton's

They will be casting their vote between Bush's and Dean's.

And under Dean's plan they will be paying $2000 per year more.

And if you want to send in money so the government will help the poor, send it directly to HUD or Dept. of Education.

They will cash your check and they do need the money.

[OrAnarch]

38. Clinton's Plan = Dean's Plan

Current Plan = Clinton Plan + Bush Tax Cuts (maybe other stuff).

Dean Plan = Current Plan - Bush Tax Cuts = (Clinton Plan + Bush Tax Cuts) - Bush Tax Cuts = Clinton Plan


Dean Plan = Clinton Plan.


They will ONLY pay 2000 more a year if they paid 2000 more a year in 1999


They will vote on wether they liked living in America 1999 of America 2004. Clear call for me.

[RUexperienced]

41. I think you will be in for a big surprise

by believing that middle class people are going to vote to raise their taxes by as much as Dean wants to.

[OrAnarch]

45. The current deluded middle class...

Does not want taxes "raised" of course...but this is hardley a raise. Its like, if I put 5 bucks on the ground, and then picked it up, did I just make 5 bucks? No. A temporary impairment to the tax system which would be rolled back doesn't constitute a raise. Its a right wing talking point to say so. Furthermore, they just might actually opt for a true raise past the Clinton plan if they could get back the America they had then...


But what I meant to say, is that the American public is really deluded and far to the right, led by extremist over the last few years. We will never truly win if the only way we can win is by pandering to the current mindset, hoping to appease the right wing idealology that is throughout our society. To run someone that does appeal to such is not a true victory.


What we need to do is reach out and pull these people left. To teach them that a rollback is equal to Clinton's plan. To teach them that fundementalism is bad for a society, religious or otherwise. To teach them preemption is a dangerous foreign policy. Of course, any candidate who is trying to appeal to middle america on any issue right now will lose to the republican counterpart, because the right wing has taken America with them. A victory now could only be had with this crowd by a Wolfowitz/Ashcroft ticket. That isn't what we want.


Lets teach America the truth. Tell the middle to get out their reciepts from 1999. Ask them if they want to pay that and enjoy the benifits of such a society or if they want to suffer and pay Bush's plan. You are operating on the premises that Bush has laid out, not realising they have hardley been in place, and not realizing the American people are alligned more right than before.


It is a defeatist attitude to assume that the only way to win is to appeal to the right (or middle), which is by no means a victory. A true victory will only be accomplished by also teaching and pulling people left, educating them on how a society should properly function.

[cjbuchanan]

42. Did you get a $2000 check this year?

If you did not, how are your taxes going to go up that much?

Also, this site is for a far right wing, ultra-anti-tax group. Does this sound like someone from whom you could get fair and independent information regarding taxes?

[RUexperienced]

44. Maybe Dean can create a tax calculator so we can see how much

he is going to raise our taxes.

I would prefer to use his. But I don't know if he has one.

[OrAnarch]

46. It doesn't take a tax calculator!

Pull out your reciepts from 1999!


Period!


If you are making less and such doesn't apply anymore, remember a roll back may create an economy where such would apply.


If you are making more now, vote Bush, as it seems all you care about anyway.



Why do you gotta make this all convuluted with calculators. A rollback will implement the same system before Bush is elected. Look at your taxes un CLINTON.

[RUexperienced]

49. Yours is a recipe for disaster.

Are you too young to have heard about Mondale's promise to raise taxes?

[OrAnarch]

50. A rollback of a disaster is not a tax raise.

The only recipe for disaster are dems spouting off right-wing talking points, and that being one of the most annoying ones IMHO.

The problem isn't saying that taxes will go back to under Clinton's plan (if that was really bad anyway), but the problem is the American people's perception of such, who have been dragged far right.


There is nothing wrong with HD proposing the Clinton Tax plan. There is somethign wrong with the people not wanting such. I want to live in a sensible America where people want liberalistic institutions and do not follow right-wing talking points blindly. To live in any other America is a disaster.


I hope for a candidate who will not pander to the right, even if the people are aligned there, and will reach out and educate them in a proper manner. Some hope for a candidate who will say whatever the people want to hear, no matter what they want. That is why Republicans are winning...we always conform our message to the people, and they conform the people to their message.

[RUexperienced]

52. No matter how you word it, Americans are going to pay A LOT more

under the Dean plan.

Maybe somebody will buy your sales pitch, but Americans won't.

And neither do I.

[cjbuchanan]

7. I don't buy anything from the club for growth

Why not just site Rush as a source. The club for growth are the same one’s running an ad attacking Dean supporters as a tax-hiking, government-expanding, latte-drinking, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving, New York Times-reading Body-piercing, Hollywood-loving, left-wing freak show

Using Republican numbers to attack a Democrat really weakens your argument IMHO.

Just a suggestion, find an independent evaluation and then repost.

[IrateCitizen]

8. You're trusting the "club for growth"? Please.

This is the same insane group that ran the commercials against Republicans who wouldn't vote for Bush's second tax cut last year.

I wouldn't trust this group of hacks and frauds any further than I could throw them. And I'm sure that this move has absolutely NOTHING to do with the anti-Dean ads they just launched in IA?

Nah. Nothing to see here, move along.... :eyes:

[Brian_Expat]

17. Hahahaha

Club for Growth, eh?

[9119495]

18. 400 or a bit more than a dollar a day!

So fuck the CFG. I'll take my health care through the Dean plan and save 800 a year. Net gain 400. Clever how they left out the part about everyone saving on health care, property taxes, state taxes, etc.....

How the fuck did Club for Growth end up on DU?

[9119495]

21. 19,600...if I made 500,000 a year. Gee, why does GWB do so well with rich

folk?

[dkamin]

22. Wow

Citing the "Club for Growth" to justify a vote for Clark over Dean? Interesting.

I don't know your specifics, but I'd point out that almost every American has seen offsetting tax increases or service cuts since the Bush tax cuts, with more to come. Property taxes are being raised, and will be raised much more, as the federal defunding of schools continues. State sales and income taxes are sure to rise, as anti-terrorist and other costs rise, while federal grants to the states drop precipitously.

Finally, I'd point out that these tax cuts are basically being funded by borrowing, and that the current deficit is almost twice as large as it's ever been. Most serious economists believe that if we continue on this path of debt spending, we will be headed into serious permanent decline as a nation, along the lines of Argentina.

Dean, Clark, or any other Democratic candidate could stand up there and promise more tax cuts and no spending cuts, but eventually, we're going to have to pay the piper. Our children are going to pay very heavily for our profligacy.

But I forgot: nobody cares anymore about anyone but themselves. It's the era of selfishness as virtue! I gotta get my $500! And f&ck the rest of you!

[TrueAmerican]

23. $2,000 and I am not rich

Thanks Gov Dean, but no thanks.

[papau]

27. Club for growth fails Turbotax check

http://www.turbotax.com/calculators/lawchange/notemplates/

The turbo tax calculator says a 40000 adjusted gross income for married no kids gets a $333 tax cut.

Norquists lie via his calculator is $955.15

Not that Norquist lies more than the media - that would be hard to do.

[9119495]

28. There is more to America than money DINO

We have schools, health care committments, social security, security and defense, infrastructure.... But then forget all that stuff. Let's all vote Republican.

Your 2000 next year could be the reason this nation dies in 10 years.

[Nederland]

24. a $4500 increase for me

...assuming its true.

[Brian_Expat]

25. People shouldn't be surprised by this post

Given Clark's close affiliation with the right wing "Club for Growth," it's not surprising that some of his campaign would cite its "calculator" to boost Clark.

Too bad the calculator is wrong.

I went over and plugged in my income, it told me I'd pay $5,000 more under Dean's plan. There's just one problem -- Dean's plan simply repeals the Bush tax cuts, and if you look at my US paycheque from when I was working in the USA before the tax cut and afterwards, it adds up to under $28 per month.

Phoney math from the right wing isn't surprising. A Democrat who would rely on right-wing messages and tax policy to get nominated? That is.

[fob]

30. How far out do you project your household budget?

Let's say you go out 5 years, then in 2000(Under Clinton Years Tax Policy) you would have a projection for taxes in YR 2005. When the Bush* Tax is rolled back your actual 2005 should be pretty close to your 2000 projection(although you have a good chance of paying less taxes in actuality because of the greater chance that you could have lost your Clinton Era job and MAYBE started a bush* era job. So, does Deans plan (or any plan that rescinds the bush*tax) RAISE your taxes? NO.

[LiberalTexan]

31. I'd pay $5,000 easily

to have the kind of ecomony and social programs for all that we had under Clinton.

I have a child coming in May. This is serious shit. Hell yes, I'd pay. We told our accountant who does our taxes last year that we don't mind as long as we SEE some sort of programs come out of our money.

Isn't that what the Democratic Party is all about? I feel like I'm at a Libertarian "no taxes" website reading these posts!

[w13rd0]

33. Club for Growth?

PUHLEEZE!

[JaneQPublic]

34. Here's Tax Info from a Non-Partisan Source: Citizens for Tax Justice

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/2003statecut.pdf

Most Taxpayers Get Little Help From Latest Bush Tax Plan

Despite misleading presidential rhetoric, almost half of all American taxpayers will get less than $100 this year and next from President Bush’s just-passed tax plan. In 2005, three-quarters of taxpayers will get less than $100, and in 2006 and later years almost nine out of ten will get less than $100.

http://www.ctj.org/html/kid0603.htm

House GOP Child Credit Bill Gives Far More to the Well Off Than to Moderate-Income Families

(Check out the table titled "Effects of the House GOP 2003 Child Credit Plan in 2003-06 on families with children under 17")

[killbotfactory]

35. OMG Bush is AWESOME! Under Dean, I'd lose, per year, $5000.00...

In monopoly money.

Bush's economic policy RAWKS!

[OrAnarch]

36. If Dean doesn't get the nomination...

I feel sorry for them bastards at Club For Growth. Theyll have to go through their site and change every "Dean" reference to whoever won, but theyll leave the increases the same, cause its all republican bullshit anyway.

[Kolesar]

39. DU MODERATORS' RULE NUMBER 5 FOR GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUMS

5. If you post an article or other published content which is from a conservative source or which expresses a traditionally conservative viewpoint, you must state your opinion about the piece and/or the issues it raises.

CFG is conservative. Please state your opinion on CFG's piece.

[jcgadfly]

48. The poster has stated his opinion

He loves the CFG because it tells him what he wants to hear.

[FubarFly]

51. Hmm.. maybe I should make up a magic calculater as well...

Great News!! Under Howard Dean we will get a $1,000,000 tax rebate plus a dinner date with Ed McMahon! Isn't Dean great!

---

Why doesn't anyone verify their sources anymore?

[FubarFly]

43. Some information about the Club for Growth:

Stephen Moore and his die-hard conservative allies are taking lots of hits these days. They're reviled as "cannibals." They're accused of "eating their own." They're "fratricidal purists." Their tactics are "stupid."

And that's just what fellow Republicans say about them.

The GOP reigns in Washington, but not always harmoniously. There are fissures at the moment - purists vs. pragmatists, conservatives vs. moderates - and the name-calling has gotten so bad, you would think they were auditioning for Jerry Springer.

---snip--

But let Stephen Moore tell it: "The only reason God put Republicans on this earth is to cut taxes... . We want to improve the party's gene pool."

And that's why Moore - president of a well-financed, Wall Street-connected, much-feared conservative group called the Club for Growth - took up residence last week at the Union League in Philadelphia. He was making a pitch to rich donors, seeking their aid in his mission to help conservative Pennsylvania Rep. Pat Toomey knock off Sen. Arlen Specter in the GOP primary next April.

---

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/sunday_review/6239934.htm


Yes, please come on the Democratic Underground quoting the Club for Growth as a reliable source- see how far it will get you. :eyes:

[poskonig]

53. Grover Norquist????

I suppose you think bipartisanship is "date rape" too, eh?

[mzmolly]

54. see www.bushtax.com

for more realistic information. I know damned well I didn't get $4K from Bush.

[Moderator]

55. Locking.....

5. If you post an article or other published content which is from a conservative source or which expresses a traditionally conservative viewpoint, you must state your opinion about the piece and/or the issues it raises.



DU Moderator