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Doesn't Obama want to "spread the wealth" to people like Joe the Plumber?

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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 02:58 PM
Original message
Doesn't Obama want to "spread the wealth" to people like Joe the Plumber?
Edited on Tue Oct-28-08 03:01 PM by Armstead
It's really baffling that Joe the (sort of )Plumber doesn't get it.

Even more baffling that the McCain campaign is using him as a poster buy for all those "Joes and Janes" out there.

Joe, if you thought things through a little bit, you'd realize that Obama wants to "spread the wealth" to people like you. I realize people like Rush Limbaugh and the GOP CONservatives have made you believe that you're really a budding member of the Upper Class. The CONservatives have inspired you to look down your nose at your real economic peers, and identify instead with the interests of the Uber-Wealthy Oligarchs.

"Spreading the Wealth" does not mean taking money from you and giving it to the undeserving. It means moving away from the strategy of CONCENTRATING the Wealth in the hands of the Uber Rich. and instead giving a fair shake to the middle and lower classes for a change.

Joe, That means giving a break to YOU.

And Joe, good luck on your fantasy of buying the business you work for. Really. But think it through for a minute. Even if you do manage to move up into a higgher tax bracket, you'll still be better off. You mihght have yto pay a little bit more in taxes, BUT YOU WILL BE MAKING MUCH MORE.....It's not like Obama plans to punish you and take away all of your money if you manage to up your income. You will still be better off, even if the taxes in your new bracket go up a little bit.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Joe grew up on welfare
Joe has complained about friends who don't get enough help with child care.

What is wrong with our party that they don't confront these issues and explain who has really been in Joe's corner all these years.

Republicans are fairweather friends, just like another DUer posted a bit ago.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Didn't you know? ....The Tooth Fairy pays for Child Care
Joe is really complaining that the Tooth Fairy isn't being generous enough in doling out child care for his friends.

:)
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sam the tax cheat was and always will be a freeper
nothing more, nothing less. Did you expect him to act differently?
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Joe is the poster child...
for people who vote against their own financial interest because they are brainwashed by the repubs...
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here's a suggestion--let's stop using that phrase. It doesn't help us, and Obama
didn't mean it in a socialist way.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Personally I like the phrase "Spreading the Wealth"
Much better than the alternative, which has been "Concentrating the Wealth" among a tiny number of oligarchs.
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PaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. it's not about that for guys like "Joe".......
it's about their ship that's always around the corner, waiting to come in. Most people feel that A.) the wealthiest Americans have earned that wealth through hard work and ingenuity, and B.) that they will someday be wealthy as well.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. So True...
I guess they think Fantasy is preferable to Reality.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. They aren't wrong about it, it happens all the time.
I am Joe..

I dropped out of high school at 16, and 30 years later with no college education I founded a company that brings in over a million a year in income, and I have employed as many as 40 employees. Though economic times being what they are I'm down to a lot fewer now. It took 20 years without a vacation, and working 7 days a week for years.. which is why I'm still single.

Joe has been working for 15 years as a plumber, is about to get his masters license, and there's no reason at all he can't buy that business and be a success. More power to him. Most people that start small businesses fail though, at least their first one.

I'm even worse off than Joe, I'm single and make good money... I get no tax breaks anywhere for anything.. At least he gets breaks for having kids... ;)

It can happen, and Joe may do it... But he's not going to be taking home 250k for quite a while I'd say even after he buys it...
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Some people vote the income level they aspire to as opposed to the one they have now.
This is something which the Republicans are very good at selling.
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mohc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Spreading Wealth vs Spreading Opportunity
While for the most part this is just a semantics game McCain is playing, there are stark differences. The Republicans like to promote "equal opportunity" as if that is a completely objective term. If the current set of opportunities is not resulting in the spreading of wealth then either there really is not equal opportunity or the people being left out are not being as productive. Seeing as wealth continues to concentrate, if the Republicans want to claim they are spreading opportunity they better be prepared to tell everyone they just are not working hard enough to get any wealth and that the rich must deserve it more. The only objective measure is the actual results, ie the wealth itself spreading. That does not mean the government is literally going to one person and giving their money to someone else. It just means it must change the system to promote the spreading of wealth until it actually sees results.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. Why is it a fantasy to own the business?
My uncle fixed cars at a garage for years, and then bought the business himself when the owner wanted to get out of it.

Why do you call it a fantasy?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. And is he making $250,000 a year?
No? Oh.

Didn't think so.

It is very difficult to buy a business, harder now than ever because of the credit crunch. But even when working people manage to pull it off, they're lucky to hit $100,000 annual income, and most of the time only move up a couple of income brackets. Only about 1% of this country is truly rich, and most of them got that way from investing the hundreds of thousands that they earned, not from being a plumber or owning a two-man plumbing business.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. changing the topic
You said it was a fantasy to own the business. You didn't talk about his potential income. I agree it would be harder to earn $250k on the business unless he grew it to a number of employees.

I've read that the great majority of millionaires are actually small business owners, not executives.

My own stepdad ran a small company that made corrugated boxes and in his later years was making well over $300k a year. And this was in the 1980's. So yes, small business owners can make a great income.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I didn't say anything
I made my own post. I don't give a crap what your dad did. Only about 1% of the country earns over $300,000 a year. It is a fantasy for most people and it's sadistic to mislead people into believing they will achieve that. It's probably the key reason this country has some of the highest insanity rates in the world. You work, you achieve as much as you can. Whatever it is, you should be able to support your family without government assistance. If you can't, and your employer is making millions, then something is terribly wrong.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Don't be so darned bitter. eom
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Why the personal attack? n/t
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Because
you said something to the effect of "I don't give a crap what your dad did." And you still maintain it's a fantasy to become well-off. I think it's a disservice to tell people that it's a fantasy to believe you can become successful.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. 3% earn more than $250,000
97% don't.

What part of that is a fantasy?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. You didn;t pay attention to the whole post
I said that he might realize his fantasy (just as I might realize mine).

But the way Joe is thinking -- reinforced by the CONservatives -- is that he is going to be worse off if he does succeed, because Obama is going to "take away" his newfound wealth.

Bullshit. He may have to pay a little bit more, but he will still be a lot better off if he does succeed.
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Bleacher Creature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. SSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
If you say that too loud, people might start thinking that he's a fraud and a gimmick!!
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. A lot of people don't get it.
The democratic party really hasn't recovered completely from the 60's-70's and the horrible economy we had then plus Vietnam war Johnson just couldn't let go of....

It's been a conservative era basically ever since.

Bush has remarkably done the same to the republicans that Johnson did to democrats with War and economy.. Republicans will be suffering for a long time, especially if the economy rebounds well in the next four years under Obama.

The only rub I have with Obama's tax plan is the dividend and cap gains tax increases, they will definitely dry up investment capital for new business and business growth. Investors won't want to sell equity to invest that cash in new business due to the tax hit. As someone who will likely be looking for investment capital next year, that would provide me with capital to hire in a several new employees for new jobs, it worries me.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. If he rolls the tax cuts back to Clinton-era levels, then it is a non-issue
During the Clinton years, before the Bush tax cuts, investment capital was surging. Investment was not held back by the tax rates then.

Other factors may be drying up credit and available capital. But the possibility of taxes returning to 90's levels is a comparatively minor factor in that.

Until Bush and the RepubliCONS made the offer to cut these taxes, there was not a major clamoring to lower them from most quarters. Investors and the wealthy were quite fat and happy back then.


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maui9002 Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Not. True. Listen to the video.
When Obama said "spread the wealth", he was NOT talking about redistribution of taxes to guys like Joe the Plumber who make less than $250K. He was talking about adopting policies, including a tax plan that increases federal income taxes for those making more than $250K and giving those at the middle and lower level refundable tax credits, so that they would prosper and then "spread the wealth" with everyone else, including Joe the Plumber assuming he actually bought the business (which he won't) and made more than $250K after he bought it(which won't happen either). In other words, Obama was saying if we help the middle class to prosper, we'll ALL prosper (including those who make more than $250K per year). At least on DU, we should be able to get that straight.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. I have it straight...I know what you are saying
I was using shorthand for the process you mentioned.



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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. No he gets it. He's just a douchebag who likes to pretend he's some kind of martyr for rich people.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. Someone needs to ask Joe if he will hand over his weekly paycheck
to John and Cindy McCain. That's what it boils down to. Average people underwriting tax cuts for the megawealthy.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. The party is over. People need to adjust to reality that margins are going down
Our high growth and return rates have been artificial, exaggerated, and unsustainable.

Hell, investment should be taxed at more similar rates as income from work. Your advantage is that you don't have to do the work.
What I suggest sure as hell is socialism or anything from Marx. People should be able to disagree without resorting to hyperbole and outright misinformation.

The MBA crowd can protest all they want but since all they can suggest is tax policy that hasn't proven to be productive for the people. Suck it up investor class, you'll have plenty of excess resources. Its time to change the playing field, but we can continue to play the same game and the folks up top will continue to have customers that can afford their goods and services.

This idea that growing the pie and only serving a few is nonsense. An economy that doesn't care about actual people is doomed to failure, without the people economies have no need to exist.
FDR saved capitalism and Obama will again but people must accept that rates of growth will be more rational.
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Puzzler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yes, this basic point is in fact UNDEBATABLE!
It's the MSM that seems to think that the jury is still out on the issue!
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. Yes, but Joe the Dumber is just plain too stupid to understand
Edited on Tue Oct-28-08 04:03 PM by brentspeak
I feel for bad for every plumber in this nation whose profession now has to be associated with Wurzelbacher.
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Stagecoach Donating Member (468 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. What McCain is doing
Edited on Tue Oct-28-08 04:13 PM by Stagecoach
Is making it sound like Obama is going to take money from a person making $45,000 (for example) a year and give it to someone who hasn't worked at all in that same year. Which won't be the case. What these people don't realize is under Obama's plan, that person making $45,000 is going to see their taxes frozen or go down, as the very wealthiest will pay more. Under McCain's plan, that person making $45,000 is going to see their taxes go up to make up for the tax cuts he's going to give to the wealthiest. Under McCain's plan, that person is never going to make enough money to buy a $250,000 business. And, even then, a business owner making $250,000 is going to pay more under McCain's plan, so that they he can take care of the wealthiest. In other words, every person under McCain's plan will be paying higher taxes than those making more than them. The middle class will be making the rich richer than them, and in turn the rich will be making rich those that are richer than them.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yes, but Joe's been chugging the Drano for awhile.
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
28. No,
but it's alright for Joe the plumber's to come over to the Democratic party, and Obama would tax them to spread the wealth, while they are supporting the Democratic party as well.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
32. Look, if I had it my way Obama wouldn't spread ANY wealth to Joe
Edited on Tue Oct-28-08 10:21 PM by Wickerman
but, fortunately, Obama is a much better man than me and will excuse that Joe is an asshole. Yes, Joe the unlicensed Plumber, Obama wants you to be wealthier.

Dumbass.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Jow will be getting wealth spread to him anyway through book deals, etc.,
Edited on Tue Oct-28-08 10:31 PM by Armstead
Joe will write a book (actually put his name to a ghostwritten book) and get a big advance due to his accidental fame.

Talk about dumb luck.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
36. Joe is one of those libertarian nut jobs.....
... who wants to pay NO taxes. I saw him on Huckabee, he didn't come out and say it officially, but the implication was clear. You know the type, don't want to pay taxes, doesn't want the government telling them to do anything, blah blah blah. Thinks we all live on our own little islands and should all be able to make up our own little rules and do things only the way we want to do them.

You know how Barack said Monday how we've lost our sends of responsability for one another? Folks like Joe are the driving force behind that.

Idiot.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
37. Joe the unlicensed plumber has already admitted -on news tape- that Obama's
tax plan would benefit Joe's own self.

But Joe is very willing to vote against his own best interests, coz like most republicans, Joe is not the brightest bulb on the Season's Greetings tree.











Rightwingnuts; stupidest MFers on the planet.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yes, but he's completely brainwashed
He hasn't a clue who Marx was, but knows Obama is a Marxist. He believes giving billionaires an even bigger tax breaks will make his life better. He's brain-dead.
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windshaper Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
39. test
test
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. tata troll.
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
40. I am 100% certain that in the privacy of the voting booth, JTP will mark his ballot for Obama.
He KNOWS he'll get a $1K+ tax break from Obama and I guarantee you he wants it. He's just milking his 15 minutes.

Joe is not only a fake plumber, he's a fake McInsane supporter.
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