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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 03:52 AM
Original message
A Response To All Those DUers Who Think That Election Fraud Is Not An Isssue In 2008
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 04:09 AM by althecat
Dear DU,

Today the greatest list has several entries relating to Greg Palast and RFK Jnrs article with the headline "ITS STOLEN ALREADY". In many of those threads DUers have popped up complaining that Palast has gone too far - that such talk is demoralising - some have even gone so far as to accuse Palast of wanting Obama to lose.

What follows is a response to that sentiment. It is needed because even after six long years of talking about this stuff some people still seem to think this is tinfoil.

Obvioysly it is alarming what Greg Palast and RFK Jnr is saying and I hope everybody is alarmed. It is time to open your eyes.

The very same media that has been telling you that the voting machine story is oveblown since 2003 has also been telling you - since 2003 - that the housing bubble was sustainable and that selling variable rate mortgages to poor people was a good idea. It is high time that people woke up and realised that they are being lied to by the people that they trust.

Palast and RFK Jnrs story is a warning.

It is one which is being delivered as clearly as it possibly can by two of the smartest people in the room in one of the best magazines in the world. They are not just telling people whats going on. They comic is all about empowering people to do something about it.

This story is being told somewhat shrilly perhaps - but it needs to be. And hopefully THIS TIME the election integrity movement has finally got the ear of the US Public. Because this is a message that needs to be heard. In the past the likes of Daily Kos has banned discussion of election fraud, hopefully those days are now over.

ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT ELECTION STEALING IS NOT AN ISSUE THIS ELECTION BECAUSE THE PUBLIC WILL IS CERTAIN TO OVERCOME ANY THEFT EFFORT IS A FOOL



Harsh words. Yes.

Intended to arouse strong emotions. Yes.

THIS MESSAGE IS LOUD BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE LOUD
MANY PEOPLE HERE HAVE BEEN YELLING ABOUT THIS FOR YEARS
AT LEAST 4 ELECTIONS 2000-2002-2004 & 2006 HAVE ALREADY BEEN STOLEN
STEALING ELECTIONS IS NOT DIFFICULT IT HAS HAPPENED
AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN



Even leaving aside electronic vote fraud altogether the last 2 presidential elections were stolen by Secretaries of States and corrupt disgraceful courts and partisan officials. Greg Palast and RFK Jnrs investigations have shown this conclusively.

And yet still we have the reaction of numerous DUers denigrating these men and their supporters.

Several of those who have been making snarky remarks about Palast and RFK are known disrupters - some of these people seem to be making a career out of denigrating election integrity activists. They do not usually emerge into the light of this forum however and it will be interesting if they turn up in this post.

And then there is electronic democracy.

AT PRESENT THERE IS NO WAY TO VERIFY A US ELECTION..... IPSO FACTO THE US IS NOT A DEMOCRACY?



:wtf:

And the answer is probably not anymore. Certainly not a functional democracy.

The 2000 Election was hacked electronically...
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm - Diebold Memos Disclose Florida 2000 E-Voting Fraud

The machines used to count the 2002 election were completely hackable - both the optical scans and the touchscreens - see the movie
http://www.hackingdemocracy.com /

See also reams of research.... moch of which was conducted here at DU.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00064.htm - Bigger Than Watergate (by me)
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm - Inside A U.S. Election Vote Counting Program
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The 2004 Election was hacked
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00142.htm - 47 State Exit Poll Analysis Confirms Swing Anomaly
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00164.htm - Bigger Than Watergate II (George On The Block & The White Ghosts Of NYC)
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00165.htm - Election 2004: The Urban Legend

The primaries were hacked
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0806/S00182.htm - CLINTON BEATS EXIT POLLS BY WIDE MARGIN IN EVERY STATE - The Democratic Primaries 2008:

And now the Media and Exit Pollsters are preparing to lie to you...
http://usacoup.scoop.co.nz/?p=664

" YORK - Barack Obamas tendency through the Democratic primaries to perform better in exit polls than he actually does at the ballot box has some media organizations nervous heading into Election Night.

Television networks want to avoid having their performance become an issue for the third straight presidential election. Their political experts hope that experience gained during the primaries will help things run smoothly Nov. 4.

ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox News Channel and The Associated Press pool resources to conduct exit polls in select precincts, hoping to glean information about why people vote the way they do and to help predict a winner or loser. A combination of actual vote counts and exit polls is generally used to call a state for one candidate or another.

Exit polls frequently overstated Obamas vote during the primaries by as much as 3 percentage points."


Yes it is alarming.

Very.

So be alarmed. And don't shoot the messengers. We are doing you all a favour.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think most of us are aware. That's not the issue.
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 04:13 AM by tblue
Problem is, we don't know what to do about it!

In 2006, my understanding is the GOP stole about 4% of the vote through various methods. We have to ensure we exceed this percentage.

Beyond that, this is what I've heard we must do:

First thing, we need everyone to show up and vote. We absolutely cannot let these doubts keep us from voting, period. And we must vote in large enough numbers to make it as difficult as possible for ...........(I don't even wanna say it).

Second, we need to vote early. Tell everyone you know to vote as soon as they possibly can, don't wait until election day, allow time to work out issues.

Third, go to vote with someone else in case you encounter RepubliKKKan challenges to your right to vote. Stand your ground. There is strength in numbers. Take phone numbers of Election Protection or similar groups with you and use them.

Fourth, do not vote on a provisional ballot. In almost all cases, provisional ballots will not be counted.

Other than that, I don't know. I don't fucking know what else to do. If somebody knows, just tells me, and I will do it.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. All good stuff.... and promoting StealBackYourVote.org
... is a good thing to do too.

I think my point in a nutshell is this.

It is not a bad thing to be nutting out about election fraud being committed by the GOP and its machinery. In fact it is vital that we do it.

It is also vital that we not pretend that these dirty tricks are not a very real threat to the result in three weeks time. They are. This shit has worked four elections in a row. Why would they stop now when everything is at stake.

In 2004 John Edwards and John Kerry said they would not concede until the count was finished. The morning after they conceded Ohio. We now know that Ohio was stolen. People have been sent to jail for the cover up there. Evidence is strong that fraud was rife in Ohio in 2006 - it will be a battleground again - and so will Florida.

Vigilence is necessary.

It is not whining.

It is not playing the victim.

It is realism. Pure and simple.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. We need to support targeted voters in swing states.
In any way we can.

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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Some good news from Ohio rural area - Hubby & I voted on PAPER ballots!
You can ask for them and yes it doesn't necessarily mean they will be counted correctly BUT there is a better chance that they will be counted for the person you intended to vote for! I think the voter needs to be vigilant and vote early if they can. The more people who do vote I think also will help to justify that the vote will be correctly recorded. My thoughts - and so glad we could vote on a paper ballot!
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Good for you...
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. the same message three times?
Take the exit polls out of it, and most of the conclusions are gone.

althecat, I know you can't convince me that Kerry won MN, NH and PA by double digits, as the exit polls indicate. But can you convince me that you believe it? I like to know the kind of person I'm dealing with.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. OTOH.... you have been arguing this corner since the 2004 election
You have not once provided any comprehensible explanation of any of your argument.

The exit poll is certainly a key part of my argument. It is however nothing at all to do with Palast and RFK's current argument.

The fact that you lumpt the 2 arguements together kind of indicates a lack of intellectual rigour on your part.

What happened in MN, NH and PA is not nearly as important as what happened in OH, FL and NM as you well know. But a pattern is a pattern.

I know you can't convince me that Bush won NM, OH and FL. But can you convince me that you beleive it?

And while you are at it can you explain to the rest of the DUers in this forum why you have lurked in DU for the past four years pouncing on anyone who discusses exit polls in a manner that displeases you?



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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. The exit poll margins in those states were ridiculous
Yet the fraud crew continues to assert exit polls as relentless truth, particularly in regard to 2004. I'm surprised OTOH didn't mention New York, another state with a comical exit poll margin from 2004. He has identified that one many times.

If you want my opinion, I'm convinced Kerry was the rightful winner of New Mexico, if all the votes had been tallied as intended, identical to Florida 2000. But I'm equally certain Bush won Ohio, and more convinced Bush won Florida. His margins in those states were smack in line with the way those states figured to vote based on the national popular vote. There was nothing out of whack. If Kerry had won nationally by 2.46 points and yet Bush won Florida by 5 and Ohio by 2, then you'd have a story. But with Bush winning by 2.46% you basically have nothing. I bet on Kerry in late afternoon on election day 2004, but once I got home and saw the idiotic exit poll margins in states like New Hampshire and Pennsylvania, I slumped and turned off the TV and computer, while DU was still celebrating. I knew he was toast, that all the margins were skewed in his direction so naturally Florida and Ohio would collapse.

I realize the national margin is also disputed. That's why I no longer participate in the nonsense in Election Reform. Nothing is accepted other than widespread theft, making it up as you go along. That's why I prefer sports. My friends and I can argue about outcomes all week during football season, but once it's on the board we have something concrete as a trump card reference point, and move on to debating the next variable. You guys desperately clasp to variables several years ago, the bottom line anything you want it to be. It's pathetic.

I'm quite happy that my Intrade wagers will be graded on election night, by the official vote count. That's the real world. Your crew has tapped into runaway skepticism. It's wonderful for selling books and trapping a huge chunk of posters on message boards like this, but don't expect some of us to fall for it. I'm amazed OTOH and a few others still have the energy to destroy your arguments.

Anyway, I appreciate the focus on suppression. In fact, you guys would be much more valuable and accurate if you dumped machine antics completely and laser focused on suppression. But the glory cynicism is with the machines, and after the fact. I realize that.

After two straight tight and demoralizing presidential defeats, no one here wants a headline like, "IT'S STOLEN ALREADY." That should have been blatantly obvious. Step back and handicap a little bit before posting, and you might be spared the desperate apologetic follow-up threads.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. There is nothing remotely apologetic about this thread . It is explanatory.
You are clearly mistaken.

Again.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
29. I can't be accountable for your incomprehension
I never claimed that exit polls are part of Palast and RFK's current argument. As anyone who read the OP already knows, you're the one who hauled in the exit polls. So what's your beef?

"What happened in MN, NH and PA is not nearly as important as what happened in OH, FL and NM as you well know."

As Awsi pointed out in simple words, in case mine were flying over your head, what happened in MN, NH and PA is important if one actually wants to know if the exit polls were accurate. Do you?

I don't know whether Bush won NM, and can't be sure that he won the other states. You're moving the goalposts again.

Nor have I "lurked... pouncing." That's just poisoning the well.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Mr. Honesty: Turn the Question around, what EVIDENCE supports the certified RESULTS?

THree times total:

What EVIDENCE supports the certified RESULTS?

What EVIDENCE supports the certified RESULTS?

They were all counted in secret. Thus, while you can try to obfuscate exit polls as a method of determining the true voice of the people, what you are implicitly defending, the election results, is abjectly INDEFENSIBLE.

There's no evidence for those results.

At least with exit polls, there's some (disputed, incompletely disclosed) evidence.

Here's hoping you have the intellectual honesty to admit that the election results have no evidence sufficient to justify their conclusion, other than whatever false dignity certification and the law dress them with.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. nice attempt to move the goalposts
If you're asking me to "admit" that the election results are unverifiable, well, I always have. But you know that. So don't try to school me on intellectual honesty. Someone might actually be reading.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. Show Me The Vote !! knows you are right
and one of the areas of theft is to be in Jackson County, Missouri. We are desperately trying to throw together a website with pertinent input.

Not our forte. We normally work more like Quantrill's Raiders but, this time, it is in our own back yard and we have some things needing to be said publicly. We'd kidnap an open source programmer if we had the chance (and treat them royally) and let them go when we are done.

Still and all, we have the ability since late evening Thursday for users to sign on and comment. There is an interesting film there concerning galloglas' arrest which will be joined with more material.

But, we will do what we have to to stop the Missouri theft. Our people have managed to infiltrate the ACORN-bashing GOP-led Election Board in Jackson County.

And in this century, our "Raiders" will be coming, in part, eastward from Kansas to help their Progressive comrades in Missouri. Just let the Jackson County Board guess where we will be.

Remember the last episode of Lord of the Rings, when the "ghosts" army paid for their sins? So it will be with the Raiders! We will pay back the Slavers (now morphed into the GOP oligarchy) who pushed into the Kansas Elections of 1855 and made it into "Bloody Kansas".

Ang Lee filmed "Ride With The Devil". Now we will chase the Devil out of Jackson County, and, de facto, reverse "the Order #11 of 2008" (voter caging).

Wish us well!





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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Dear Galloglas...
Dear G,

How grand it is to see you here this fine spring/fall day.

Perhaps you would like Scoop Independent News to advertise that there website on http://usacoup.scoop.co.nz as part of our 5 million advert election protection gift to the people of the USA.

All I need is some creative and we can give your local story some ooomph.

And you are a legend!

al

P.S. I recall your arrest with some fondness. Especially in the recounting thereof.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
8.  The issue with the Palast article was only
title, not the notion that stealing elections is a silly one. As far as I can tell, every DU'er is as concerned as can be about election fraud.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Would you like me to the posts that sparked this reaction?
I think you are correct that most people are upset about the headline - but even that is justifiable. However there are people being a great deal more dismissive of Palast and RFK than pure headline criticism.

Take this post from OTOH.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

OnTheOtherHand (1000+ posts) Sat Oct-18-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #29
50. I paid my buck and shared the PDF
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 12:08 PM by OnTheOtherHand
Being assimilated into Palast's personal fundraising operation was not really a priority for me, but I wanted to see what he was saying.

Some folks over at Daily Kos are ticked at Palast because they have first-hand information about the registration rolls in New Mexico and Colorado, and they know he is misrepresenting the registration purges in those states. (I don't remember whether those particular misrepresentations show up in the comic book.) Not to be confused with the purge efforts in Michigan and Montana that fell afoul of court scrutiny (or the Ohio Republicans' demands that just got blocked by the U.S. Supreme Court).

I like investigative reporters who try to distinguish facts from hype. That isn't really Palast's gig. I don't know why.

ETA: By the way, I don't mean that I reposted the comic. Palast has a right to make money this way, however ethically suspect some of us might find it. I did share it with a few people who wanted to see it but would never have given Palast the buck.
"Isn't the whole point of 'research' to figure out the truth? In the search for truth, isn't it important to start with facts that are factual?" --Skinner, 11/13/06


I have been encountering stuff like this all over other threads on this for the past 24 hours.

:)
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Here's another...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Since the election protection movement began it has had to put up with constant attacks from people charging self serving motivations.

According to this chorus everybody is just in it to sell a book. Promote a website. Get a donation. Get famous.

The reality is the exact oppoosite. For the vast majority of those I have observed in the US Election Protection it is about outrage, truth, justice, the rule of law, democracy and self preservation (against fascism).
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. The substance in the OP in this thread was first posted here....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
genna (868 posts) Sat Oct-18-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
20. Alarmist? How about this... Rolling Stone records Republican attempts to STEAL THE ELECTION.
If it is already stolen, the cynical will say HOPE, SMOPE. We can't win for losing.
If we understand the tricks and the tactics, we can counteract them. Saying it is already over just jumps the shark.
This is true of Washington state and a few others. The better statement is what actions is the DNC and the Obama campaign taking to counteract what we already have seen in the Republican party?


Genna seemed pretty much clued up.... but unfortunately by the time she turned up several less thoughtful contributions had already taken over the thread.

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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. "ipso facto the US is not a democracy"
I think this is just too big for many people to believe. The mind tends to reject things that clash with everything we've ever been told, everything we've been conditioned to believe unquestioningly.

I am still worried that, because the idea of stealing an election is just too big for most people to comprehend, the majority of voters would just sort of go "wow" and accept that a McCain victory is the biggest upset in the history of statistics. :scared: However, I also think the Obama campaign wouldn't just roll over and play dead the next day--they'll fight back, and maybe, knowing that, those who want to subvert democracy won't be willing to take too many chances.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Spot on thinking renate...
Thankyou for the thoughtfl response.

"I am still worried that, because the idea of stealing an election is just too big for most people to comprehend, the majority of voters would just sort of go "wow" and accept that a McCain victory is the biggest upset in the history of statistics."

Me too.

"However, I also think the Obama campaign wouldn't just roll over and play dead the next day--they'll fight back, and maybe, knowing that, those who want to subvert democracy won't be willing to take too many chances."

I hope so.

But we should learn from our mistakes.

I think that another stolen election could result in a public revolt. But it would be better much better if democracy prevailed as it ought.

Complacency is our enemy here.

Yet around here lately those of us making clear well thought cogent arguments about election protection are met with derision, snide insinations and petty ad hominen attacks.

These people are creating a climate of complacency. And we let them bludgeon us into silence to our peril.

This is the climate of complacency which will - after another stolen election - drive the public yet again refuse to believe the unbeleiveable - and then it will be 5 stolen elections - and 12 years of unelected government.

al
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R.
Thank you, al.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. Now just wait a darn minute here!
I got this memo that said ACORN. The text was gobbledegook in hieroglyphics. My decoder ring's battery may need a change. ;-)
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
19. Well, as long as Palast and RFK, Jr. don't make people afraid or fearful of voting...
That IS a concern based on publicity of random (supposedly) poll book purges. Who wants to be humiliated at the polls, or accused of trying to vote without a "license" to do so, so to speak?
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greenmutha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. K&R!
althecat - fighting the good fight! NGU! :toast:
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
22. Fraud has always been a serious factor
Still, we have to do what it takes to win against the system (or at least give it a hell of an effort) and the keys to that are to get as many as possible on the train try to catch the momentum and swap the polls.

All we can do is play the hand we have to win and be very wary, we don't control the game but it must be played out. I'm not sure what it is we can prepare for other than that.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Well said.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
26. Only the semi-retarded

"Think That Election Fraud Is Not An Isssue In 2008"

Stand up and be counted!
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. And on that note I am off to bed.
Thanks LibertyorDeath,

Methinks the absence of any argument in this thread is probably an indicator that DU is largely on board with this sentiment too.

Gnight.

al
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
30. Good morning Sunday in the US kick from Wellington's monday...
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