Do we even know what the fuck we're talking about?

[graywarrior]

I have no clue whether the vote today was bad, good, makes no difference, good for dems, bad for dems, good for republicans, bad for republicans, good for Obama, bad for Obama....I do know it's bad for McCain, but then, everything seems bad for him ecause he's bad.

But WTF? I'm PEEO'D but I have nod idea why anymore. I thought I did this afternoon...now my brain is spinning in circles again.

So does anyone really know what in hell is going on here or are we just throwing out opinions?

[TomInTib]

1. I know I don't.

But then, I rarely do.

[leeman67]

2. Don't know either. Let's ask Caribou Barbie.

:P

[succubus.blues]

11. she'll get back to you.

:rofl:

[leeman67]

18. well played!

:)

[succubus.blues]

27. set

point

:rofl:

[Ian David]

3. I have NO idea either. But McCain was a POW. n/t

[lost-in-nj]

4. gray

I am with you on this one

not sure if this was

good
bad
or indifferent

who gets blamed????

depends on which way the wind is blowing....

lost

[graywarrior]

20. I need to drink over this.

Too bad I can't.


Maybe I'll just sleep. Yeah.

No.

I don't know.

[gateley]

5. I can only speak for myself, and the answer is no.

I DO have opinions, but I've even been flip flopping on those a lot lately.

[treestar]

6. I don't really understand it much

And if I don't, I'm positive that Caribou Barbie doesn't.

[SallyMander]

7. Hey gray

:yourock:


:loveya:

[graywarrior]

36. .

:headbang:

[truthisfreedom]

8. Hey, it's all so ridiculously bad that it doesn't really matter anymore. bush sent $680B into the

market today ANYWAY. Money that came from the Federal Reserve Bank, not the US Treasury, but no matter how much they throw at it, there's no saving it. It's coming down. It's just a matter of when.

[tekisui]

9. The bill was very unpopular, but the fear had been mongered

so that something was needed.

Pukes caused this "crises" with their deregulation, and then crying wolf. Then, the pukes blocked the "temporary fix". But even this fix would have just held off the inevitable. $700 Billion bailout, the market lost over a trillion today. It's too late to stave it off now.

None of it is good for anyone at this point, except that when people are in a state of flux they will be more likely to vote for change. It should be the end of any chance of a mccain/palin administration. Retirees and near retirees are going to run to Obama. Obama better be ready to pull a FDR and turn this ship around.

That's all I know.

[graywarrior]

23. Thanks for the Obama FDR part. That's what I wanted to hear.

[childslibrarian]

10. True Repubs...

Hate-- hate --hate-- bail-outs, hate spending government money.
I am related to these people. They will not be voting for McCain. They will either not be voting or they will vote for independent candidates.

[rgbecker]

We don't know.

That's why we sit here at our computers and keep reading and wondering and basking in the wonder of it all. What did we do before DU? I don't even remember.

Thanks for asking.

[stray cat]

12. Somehow I doubt the sincere knowledge of those who appear most certain on line

I don't know the right answer and I question whether anyone does let alone a DUer who I assume has received no briefings.

[lligrd]

That Is The Real Problem, Paulson Doesn't Seem To Be Able

to explain why the money is needed. Sorry, but I need a good reason to support loaning these crooks any money.

[Bucky]

13. I find use of the word "fuck" is a pretty strong indicator of not knowing things

I don't care if it's bad for McCain--he was gonna lose anyway. It's bad for the economy to lose as much capital as we did today. The market was gonna correct--it's been doing that for some time now--but a softer landing would cost fewer jobs and be less likely to induce the panic that we saw.

[tblue]

14. All I know is the bill was not at all what most of us would have wanted.

But if it had passed, then 'something' would have been accomplished, the Dow would not have plummeted, and Congress could have gone on its little holiday and probably gotten beat up at home.

As it is, the bill having failed, Congress will now leave on its little holiday and probably still get beat up at home.

They are all damned if they do and damned if they don't. But, really, I'm glad it did not pass.

[Venceremos]

15. Give the stock market some time to calm down.

Right now investors are over-reacting to the bill getting killed.

If the market calms down within a week and things aren't as bad as the gloom and doom predictions, the politicians that killed the bill will be the winners. The gloom and doomers will be lucky to keep their seats. Reverse that if all the dire predictions come true (which I seriously doubt will happen).

[Willo]

16. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

I just have no idea what's really going on.

[frickaline]

17. I'm sure we are just throwing out opinions but what are forums for? :P Here's mine:

In my opinion, this was neither good nor bad for dems or repubs. The main thing is it wasn't good for the American people, but it isn't over yet because I think there will still be a bailout. If there is no bailout, then we will be in for a rough ride. We can already expect inflation (from the fed's activities), but without the bailout banks will not have the ability to make loans to anyone. Without the loans that all businesses need for day-to-day operations, we will experience a shrinking economy and likely a prolonged recession. The good news is it may help the price of oil to fall since industry won't be using as much. The bad news is that is because the businesses aren't there to use it.

Now you'll just have to pick and choose an opinion that makes the most sense to you.

[graywarrior]

19. Jeeze, I go take a wee wee and look what happens!

[wildeyed]

21. Oh good, it's not just me.

I have no real idea what is going on. It is completely evident that our elected reps are equally clueless, don't care about dealing with the problem and are only concerned about going home and winning their own elections.

Meanwhile, Wachovia ate it today and there are the second largest employer in the city where I live. Up till now we have been somewhat insulated from the nasty economic trouble the rest of the country has been having, but I suspect we are fixin' to get a taste of it.

[Jade Fox]

22. No

Not even Economists can predict the fucking economy.

Paul Krugman admitted no one knows if this bail-out will work, but he seems to think we have to try it. I trust Krugman.

Those who think we should let the whole thing collapse seem blissfully unaware that nothing will magically spring up to replace it.

[graywarrior]

29. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.....if you really believe I'm smart enough to think about this

Which, seriously....I'm not. I'm like a biker type Barbie.

[Jade Fox]

38. Biker Barbie--I had one of those!

:crazy:

[graywarrior]

43. Ouuuu, you nasty little DU'r.

[Ichingcarpenter]

24. I do.... but

If I told you I would have to kill you.

Its part of my CIA training.

[seabeyond]

25. no one knows. everything is a guess and hte worst is bushcos have lied to us

and they are soooo fuckin greedy that we cannot trust them.

i suspect there will be repercussions if this bailout isnt made.

i want the tightest regs and stop the fat cats from benefitting which this bill allows. shored up more than bushcos did, but far from good

i imagine there is going to be a world of hurt if it doesnt go thru.

i didnt fuck up my life living off credit. i dont owe people anything. i have cash. so i can say fuck it.... easily.

but many many more people didnt live as responsibly or make as good as choices and i suspect they are going to be hurt, and bad

i think it will effect us all

[Sodan]

28. I still don't know how they came up with that number of billions - 700

[seabeyond]

32. it is just a number. may be more. may be less. they are going to start

with installments and go from there. they will sell off what they buy and make money back as they give them more money

[graywarrior]

34. I think the Class War has just exploded.

I think there will be bloodshed.

[seabeyond]

40. i can see the benefit at letting everything just crumble and then rebuild, but reall

i dont know if it is necessary with obama going in. i said four years ago to my son that just may be what we need to get things right again. and that means a lot of people suffering (they had a part in it too) and a lot of people in pain.

i just dont know if i am willing for those consequences for the masses, if we can turn things around with obama.

[graywarrior]

42. I feel the same way.

But I don't give a rats ass about the wealthy right now.

[seabeyond]

44. oh god no.... greedy bloodsucking son of a bitches. even getting their asses bailed out

they whine about making money off it and "given" more.... assholes. tight caps, tight regs, oversight and restrictions.

[graywarrior]

46. I can't stop thinking there's plenty of money in the US, it's just in the wrong place right now

Like in the pockets of people we despise. They got it all back from the dot com years in the 90's and they want to keep it. Bastards.

[seabeyond]

47. hubby repug that votes kerry and now obama. telling me trickle down worked

i snorted. the whole concept of trickle to the masses is offensive enough. i dont know why people fell for it. but trickle with deregulation gave these people all the tools to shore up ALL trickle....

[graywarrior]

50. I hate that word trickle

[endthewar]

26. Just like being a football fan on 4th down.

You boo the coach if he kicks the field goal, you cheer him if he sends the offense on the team, but you boo him if the 4th down conversion fails.

[graywarrior]

30. OK, now you really messed up my head.

:rofl:

[endthewar]

49. I think it's a decent analogy :-)

Nobody knows what they're for, but they know what they're against. We're just hoping that the Dem leadership is able to come up with a nice 4th down play that yields a first down and not a sack. This bill represented kind of a cutting of our losses by just conceding that we can only get a field goal instead of a touchdown.

Enjoy the rest of the Monday Night Football game. :rofl:

[graywarrior]

51. *snort*

That's all I can say.

:rofl:

[IsItJustMe]

31. Honestly, most of us don't know and neither do the politicians. Sometimes doing something seems

like it is better than doing nothing. But then again, doing nothing is an action in it's own right.

[progressiveforever]

33. I think it's true

No one really knows the way out of this.

[grantcart]

35. I know that duck has suffered enough

let the duck go

[graywarrior]

37. Quack

[grantcart]

53. my god they have hundreds of them

I am calling AFLAQ

[graywarrior]

54. They like sex.

[redstate_democrat]

39. I don't know what's going on. I'm naturally suspicious, but I don't want the economy to "crater".

:D

[mzmolly]

41. I think it's good that Dems didn't bite on taking the full heat for this

bill. I also think it's good that we have more time to think about what solutions are available to us.

[political_Dem]

45. To be honest, I was hoping that someone would break it down

so it would be clearer.

But to no avail, everyone is just projecting their anger without proposing any solutions or explanations. And those in the know aren't interested in explaining what this crisis is all about.

I've read what I could from the beginning to get a grasp on it. But, my forte isn't economics.

All I do know is that this bill would not have stopped the eventual nadir of the economy. The way businesses are folding, it seems something worse is about to happen.

[SoxFan]

48. The Official DU Bailout Meltdown Spokesman

[graywarrior]

52. Bwahahaha hahaha haha haha haha hahaha!

:rofl:

[nam78_two]

55. I have no idea

I suspect that the bailout bill with all its problems was kinda needed but hell I don't know...I don't think anyone knows...
But, I don't understand how anyone who is not an anarchist or something insane like that can rejoice in this sort of market crash. Unfortunately the way the global economy stands right now, no large part of it can suffer hugely without affecting us all and Wall Street's problems will almost certainly trickle down to Main Street even if their success may never have trickled down. The poorest people will be hit the hardest and it is all very depressing.
I think the system needs to be reworked from the bottom up, but I am not sure this is the way.

I hope a better version of the bill is reintroduced, hopefully incorporating more support for homeowners and with more oversight. I mean how many trillion are we in debt already? We are almost at the point where another trillion is a worthy bet if it can make things better.

I guess this NYT oped sums up how I feel about it all:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/opinion/30tue1.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

[Hamlette]

56. I know

and no one is more shocked about that than I am

Simplistically:

Banks are required to have a certain amount of assets basically to cover deposits.

Bank loans me $100K to buy a house. The bank puts on its books that it has $100K in assets.

The value of my house goes down to $80K. The bank has to write down the value of that asset to $80K. (AICPA rule which is fairly new and not too popular right now) So, on the books, the bank has "lost" $20K. To meet the federal requirements of assets, it has to make up that $20K and it does it by holding on to that much in your savings account. Since it can't lend out the $20K, it can't make money on it and instead is just paying you interest on your savings (losing money).

Lather, rinse, repeat....until you are several trillion bucks sitting in a bank costing the bank money and NOT available for loans to businesses that need them to pay the payroll. So, the business lays people off. Those people can't make their mortgage payments and it spirals.

(My hubby was banking commissioner and is now a banking lawyer. He doesn't always agree with Barney, but he's on his side now. For my money, if Barney and hubby agree...its not only a miracle, it must be right.)

[graywarrior]

58. Reasonable explanation.

Thanks.

I'd never be able to explain that to myself, tho.

[Hamlette]

60. I hear you

I've been living with this type of talk for 25 years (gawd, I'm THAT old? yikes) even since hubby went to work as deputy banking commissioner. 3 weeks later his office closed a bunch of "banks". They were state chartered (no federal deposit insurance) so the state legislature had to pay off the depositors. We got phone calls night and day from "little old ladies" who were set to lose their life savings. Hubby was on the news almost every night for a year and the press camped out at our house a few times. There was a run on one of the "banks" (I put it in quotes because they were really "thrifts" but to me, banks, thrifts, savings and loans are so much alike I've never memorized the differences) hubby literally brought in trucks full of cash. It was a wild time.

We're both dems (I do welfare and unemployment law, I do good and he does well, we know how lucky we are) and we've heard all the arguments (they should have known it was riskier because it paid .5% more in interest, taxpayers should not bail them out etc) and initially I agreed. After seeing, meeting, hearing from all the people who were facing horrid losses, we all supported the "bail out".

Anyway, I've asked him several times "so, what's going on with this mess" and usually my eyes glaze over (WAY too much information about something I didn't care about) but I talked to him again tonight, said "I don't think they are selling this right, this isn't a bail out, this is freeing up credit to keep the economy moving right?" He said, "that's exactly what it is."

[helderheid]

57. I'm so glad I'm not the only one!!

:shrug:

:hi:

:hug:

[Life Long Dem]

59. It's usually the other way around. We borrow from them.

[Fractasticlicious]

61. Nope, but we're on a roll.

Let's keep this crazy train going!

[Leeny]

62. choo choo

1st order of business, puhleeeez let the duck go. I can't stand it no more! :cry:

Okay, didn't the bastards just let loose their greed and sign up anyone who wanted a mortgage, WHETHER THEY WERE REALISTICALLY ABLE TO AFFORD IT..., and now they're just watching, and laughing!, as more of us little people slip over the edge into oblivion. Widen the gap between the ultra rich and the poor, well hell, not just the poor but the rest of us slobs. I feel like we're just hanging on by the short hairs, hoping the wind won't blow too hard.

Fuck 'em.

:grr:

[LWolf]

63. I know this:

I don't support THIS bailout plan. That doesn't mean I support doing nothing, however. The only way to go forward with doing the right thing is to prevent this plan from passing.

Bush supports the plan. Democrats are supporting Bush. The plan didn't pass because republicans, bush's own party, refused to support it.

Why are democrats supporting bush and his corporate give away, when they could be using republican dissent to craft a better plan?

No good answer from democrats, as usual.

[slackmaster]

64. I managed to earn a Bachelor's degree without ever taking an Economics class in my life

Even with over 20 years of working in the financial services industry, I feel my level of not understanding the situation is vastly superior to that of most other people.

[dgibby]

65. I don't know jack except that I SMELL A RAT!

Time to call in the exterminators!:grr: :argh: :wtf: :nuke:

[specimenfred1984]

66. We live in a propaganda culture full of misinformation and lies

What happened was the (D)s introduced what needs to be done: limit CEO compensation, regulate the criminals, etc..., the (R)s voted against everything except corporate tax breaks and loaded the bill with deregulation which is why people like Kucinich voted against it.

What most in our propagandized culture won't say is that we have a huge segment of our population that are criminals and if these criminals aren't held responsible and jailed, nothing will change.

[bridgit]

67. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa brain...spinning...in circles...stop this damn carney torture devise...

Well, let's see...first I thought it was about saving Wall Street but only cause someone said so. Wall Street: the engine, the rocket motor of America's innovation & speculation whhyyyyy, that's where we deposit all of our greed & avarice. Then something about foreign banks and I was all like, "Foreign Banks!? OMG like whatever!"

But then bush said companies needed a line of credit to make their payroll, and that just didn't sound right to me. Then I figured I needed to ask everyone we work for if they needed a line of credit to pay us first, cause if they did, *I'd* fire *them*...and that sounded sweeter, sounded like I had control over something for a change :thumbsup: Cause why would a company not have enough payroll as a resultant of their profit/shrinkage/revenue matrix or whatever. Such a company would never get ahead unless they had some great new idea to market...and we are talking American companies so we know right there they have no new ideas, only new ways to run the same ole find-the-lady con-game (but everybody thinks it's a 'confidence' game so shhhhhhh on that one), the one we're trying to bail out ;)

Then someone, a voice from somewhere cause I heard it it said it was about Main Street, you know? Main Street U.S.A.; and I heard real faint at first then seen a barber shop quartet on a grassy commons where the trolleys turn round as a bicycle built for two peddled through the scene with smiling bowlers & frilly, giddy sun hats near a smiling, blue, mustached cop twiddling his stick and nodding & smiling to people with kids in knickers and ruffly dresses tap rolling hoops with a stick on past, a dog barked and I swear I seen a kid painting a picket fence white with a big floppy brush dipped in a drippy, paint spattered bucket and from the back he seemed like Tom Sawyer...

...

...

That's when I bitch slapped myself awake. This shit has to end. And not 15 minutes ago, not yesterday; in fact it should have never happened. This is the proof positive, the proof in the pudding that republicans are simply unable to govern in civilized manners, or offer financial instruments able to benefit anyone but their war mongering no-bid crony donor base.

republicans are here to blame everything and anybody but themselves for this deregulated, liaise fare shit sammich of theirs. They now want 700bil$'s soon to be a trillion!? They should have never gone into Iraq. Stop The War Bring The Troops Home...and start talking care of America! By taking care of America America takes care of the world.

They are railing against Bill Clinton (it may please many DUer's to know) and Franklin Raines for their efforts to make housing affordable to people of modest means DAMN THOSE FUCKING POOR PEOPLE ANYWAY!! JUST WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE...REPUBLICANS!!

There'll need to be some form of monetary correction. If that comes from the American taxpayer then I want to see some profit out of this shit sammich. Clinton turned a profit loaning money to Mexico, so there is a way to do it. But just hand a mountain of unregulated money to (just call me) Hank Paulson and his deregulated republican fat-cat war cronies? No fucking way! In fact I want to see it doled out in regulated on performance & merit drips & drabs, like feeding pigeons in the park I want to see these brain-dead financial flat-liners hop & peck for it like they've made us do for decades.

There will be no golden parachutes. Let them use their fancy French bed sheets.

[FlyingSquirrel]

68. Here's a hint.

Watch what certain people say about it. If Bush is for it, it's bad. If Kucinich and Michael Moore are against it, they're probably right.

Sorry, Sen. Obama but you're trying to become president. I believe you have our best interests at heart but you can't afford to be partisan right now.