Unite under Obama/Biden or get on the mothership and leave

No more bitching and moaning, he IS our VP Candidate.


THAT is all.

Well said!

I do agree with you, as I said on another thread: either shit or get off the pot, and if you can't shit then leave.

We have an election to win. The negativity needs to stop now.

Obama/Biden 2008

We NEED to defeat McShame in November. So ~~ let's roll!

with donations, phone banking, and other work.

I also don't recall Skinner giving a cool down period after the Veep choice!

K&FrickinR

All this bitching and moaning around here is annoying...and we wonder why we have a hard time winning elections.

I dare you

When was the kittycult anything BUT?

I love that. It needs to be on a billboard somewhere.

"Unite or become pointless!"

This is the way we unite, brother, and no one is "pointless" just because we happen to disagree with them. We talk out our differences in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Solidarity can never be achieved by threatening people.

The dissent within the party isn't helping the right wing. In fact, the heavy-handed suppression of dissent is what could help the right wing. I believe that there are right wing operatives fanning these flames.

99% of the dissenters will vote the ticket. The vigorous debate increases interest, and makes victory more likely, not less. The :shut up< and get in line" thinking leaves the field to the right wingers. [br />
People's support for the ticket looks very weak when they feel compelled to turn on their brothers and sisters over the smallest disagreement and rip them apart.

Not that I don't think Biden was a good choice; I do. He's the best of the three that the msm were trumpeting, and I'm glad he'll be on the ticket.

No, because I don't shut up and go away just because you, or anyone else, tells me to.

It's not really about Obama. It's about the people who nominated him, and the direction of the party. I don't like the right-centrist christian direction the party has moved, and is headed. I don't care for the right-centrist christian positions and rhetoric of the nominee.

It's my party too, and I get to say so when I don't like the direction my fellow democrats are taking us.

Attempt to purge the left wing of the party, and other dissenters, if you will. Just be prepared to be accountable for the party's loss in November when you spend your time driving off dissenters by trying to silence them.

Or, better idea, try addressing the issues of those who voice dissent, giving them a place at the table and a reason to show up for Obama in November.

He's the fucking nominee.

Simple, eh? You either vote for him or you don't.

- as

That's not even a reason.

Roe v. Wade.

If your own tender conscious can't quite grasp the difference between making the enemy the perfect of the good, at least vote for the Democratic nominee for the sake of the women who would be harmed by a McCain Supreme Court that overturned Roe.

You see, sometimes it's just not all about 'me, me, me', as much as you apparently indulge yourself in thinking so. Sometimes you just need to put aside your navel-gazing and take a gander at the big picture.

Which is my point to the OP.

Ask nicely. Give me a reason to compromise with you. Just don't tell me to get in line or leave, or I'm likely to be voicing dissent, loudly, all the way to November.

Since, despite your cute little put-downs, I don't spend time "navel gazing," and my points of disagreement are those that affect all, not just me, I'm concerned about Roe v Wade no matter who gets elected.

Obviously, women's reproductive rights are a good reason to defeat McCain. Obama is not exactly a champion for those same rights, so that's not really an issue to bring up if you want me to cheer him on. You'd need to find an issue that is an actual strength, not just a "not McCain."

So far I've heard him on two points that I appreciated. He got nailed hard by the mainstream for both of them. One was suggesting that all American students should learn a second language.

I don't even remember what the other was. I do remember that he was taking some heat for it. I remember thinking that perhaps it would be better for him if I were to go on disagreeing with everything he says, lol.

stay home or vote for McCain. If you don't have the vision to see all the reasons you should vote for the Democratic nominee, then by all means do what you wish.

Just don't come complaining to the rest of us when McCain wins, and we get Bush's third term.

from you.

You just don't "get" it.

I'm not voting any particular way because you think I ought to, and I'm not "going home" "staying home," or doing anything else because you assign me that task.

You do a fine job of bringing up a great point, though.

Blame is not a one-way street. If Obama loses, it's for one or both of 2 reasons:

1. Election fraud
2. He couldn't earn enough votes.

The Democratic Party hasn't exactly been persistent in cleaning up the potential for election fraud. If Obama can't earn enough valid votes, then the fault lies with him, his campaign, the people who nominated him, and those of his supporters who got on stage to purge dissent rather than inviting dissenters to the table.

It's not the fault of people who exercise their freedom to vote as they choose at the polls.

and begging him/her pretty-please with sprinkles on top to please support the Democratic nominee.

We are telling LWolf to either put up or shut up: either you support four more years of Bushco, or you don't. All the rest of your online mumbling and rambling is just so much conversational coffee-house crap.

Now, vote for Obama or vote for McCain or don't vote at all: I don't give a happy horse-shit what you do. But please spare us any more of this half-assed Hamlet act, with it's constant "to be or not to be" parsing. It's really rather silly.

Always someone who has to throw shit at a clean window.

By conforming.

It's so much neater and more pleasant.

"And all through yesterday all they bragged about was that everyone loved the ticket. I say let em have DU and that fucking waste of a party.* Of course everyone else is supposed to concede to what the Democrats who've voted against our class interests want. Don't ever expect that these people will ever concede to you."


http://oldelmtree.com/discussion/index.php?topic=994.ms...





Edit/*: emphases added.

gets into the mother-ship

Doesn't vote...

And Obama looses

then we will hear the screams about THEY deserted the party

It could NEVER EVAH be about people like YOU GUYS driving votes away

NEVER... REALLY

Here is a little secret for you. YOU GUYS, yes, YOU GUYS need every fucking vote... every one...

It is called voter fraud

It is called voter suppression

I wonder WHY are you engaging in it?

You can't grasp this concept... and engage in the kind of party purity cleansing (that I am sure is not supported by the party) that we have seen in other places. In the end, you keep this up... it will cost this party the white house.

The left you despise so much.. you need them.. just as McCain needs the fundies.

That is reality

So will you keep telling us to buzz off? People just may... and then, when you get your self fulfilling prophecy you will blame us for your strategic error.

So stop bantering, and driving people away... or you just may get what you don't want.

Oh and at this point what people do in November is a private affair, in case you have not gotten the message

Here is another piece of trivia for ya.. if people are posting on Democratic Underground 99% chance that when all is said and done will vote for the ticket, as long as you don't manage to disgust them to the point that they stay home en-masse! Or are you so damn naive? And if you are that afraid that people will not... then there is a problem with the nomination process and the candidate.

That said, sooner or later, the DLC \Blue dog keeps taking the left for granted, the left will leave... it has HISTORICALLY happened... not that you'd know that... like most Americans you don't know what happened last week, let alone seventy years ago, or a hundred...

And now we know who the rest of your are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I love "conversational coffeehouse crap" and intend to lift it from you and use it on a daily basis.

making the fate of the free world a priority above being irritated by the middle (by the way, most average people are in that middle).

yeah, they're soppy milktoast types, these fencesitter undecided voter types. But it's about the bigger picture. Ending the Bush era, and ushering in a new era of hope for our country and world.

I hardly think the people pushing for that are bullies, they are just tired of the negative nellying, like very many of us are mostly because it's counter-productive and much of the negativity feels like a distraction from the things we need to be prioritizing right now.

let's think and feel like winners for a while here, feel good about ourselves and our big tent party full of all kinds of different people and ideas and see if that doesn't help our cause a little.

Ending the Bush era? Great. I'm on board. I was on board 4 years ago, even though I was disappointed with the nomination of Kerry. To be honest, I'd be thrilled with Kerry at this point.

Of course, the Bush era is ending, regardless of who wins in November. Term limits, you know.

McCain undesirable? You're right. I don't want him in the oval office.

It's that "ushering in a new era of hope (and change) I differ with.

I don't have any hope that an Obama administration will deliver the change I wish to see. It's that simple.

Therefore, it's AGAIN, the lesser of two evils vote. I'm 48 years old. I've been voting for 30 years, and I'm sick to death of the "get in line, shut up, hold your nose and vote for the lesser of 2 evils" mantra.

It's a good thing that I'm an evolving pacifist with a reasonable amount of self-discipline. If I indulged my first impulse, it would be to kick the teeth in of every person who chanted the "Do you want 4 years of McCain" mantra. It doesn't help. It doesn't work. It doesn't do anything except piss off the votes you need to win.

There are people who are beyond where I'm at. They quit. Recently, or less recently. They won't vote at all. Or they will cast 3rd party protest votes against the two major parties.

If you don't want to address dissent WITHIN the party, you increase the number who LEAVE the party behind. I think THAT is counter-productive.

of rulers and governments.

I would guess that they either occur as a transition or abruptly through revolution or inbetween which I think we may be on the cusp of - or through what we all may be facing in the near future - more wars, water wars, environmental catastrophies unequaled in the past, the breakdown of the economic and social systems, - a world depression. Maybe we do have to start over again and hopefully do it better the next time.

What would force us as not to have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, but the better of 2 (or more parties) goods?

I think we all agree that mcCain will be hazardous to all our health for the next 4 or possibly 8 years. There's no doubt about that.

What we don't solidly know yet, is how Obama is going to change things once he gets into office, how many promises he will keep, etc.,

That is still the mystery, as no one has a crystal ball. I have every confidence that he is an honorable and admirable man and will do his best, within his powers and with all the interfrence I am sure he is going to come up against - to fillful his promises as best he can (what a plate he has before him!), but I can understand how some people may be doubtful - it's been a horrible 8 years with so many dissapointments.

I'm going to wait and see, and until then I am going to enjoy the ride.
If he ends up dissapointing, well that will certainly be a huge hit but I still really think that he will be a more reasonable president to deal with and listen to our gripes than that murderous bastard on the throne now or the addled wanna be that is running the same platform.

If Obama ends up anything like or worse these clowns, I will be with you in spirit to kick his ass.
But I highly doubt that.

Come on over. The water if fine for now. Let's enjoy the moment.

since I thought I was responding to your post when I typed that.

stop being so goddamn self-centered and think about the best possible outcome for AMERICA not YOU.



PS I see ignored people

If everyone voted for the best possible outcome for America not "us", we would NOT be voting for DLC whores. Truth is, most people are ENCOURAGED to vote for their own interests. Just listen to the rhetoric in campaign ads. The point YOU are missing is that our diseased culture conflates selfish acts like owning huge homes, driving as much as we care to (or can afford to), and other forms of stupid mass consumption with freedom and patriotism. People don't realize that the stranglehold the corporations have on our everyday life are the real threats to freedom.

Democrats vote for selfish reasons as much as Republicans. Each side has a "selfless cause" side; they have abortion/homophobia/Fundie stuff and we have the environment/choice/restraint of corporate power/etc. But the reality is, we mostly vote for what will benefit US the most. Pretending otherwise is ignorance and hypocrisy.

Go ahead, flame away the "purist" because she does not prostrate in front of a bunch of pretty lies. Ironic, how the ones who criticize "purists" are the ones spewing the "tow the line or get the fuck out" line. Is irony lost on EVERYONE today?!

If, as you say, its about the future of America, then it behooves you to bring as many people to the table as possible, does it not?

You don't force march people to the table. Neither do you deny them a place. It's not your goal I object to, it's the way you go about it. Your methods lack civility and effectiveness. They are counter productive.

If you are so clear-sited that you can see "ignored people," lol, why not take a deep breath, and "see" the point I'm making? Bluster, bombast, denial, and attack, won't make it go away.

Start with this: the party is not unified. You recognize that, since you demand that we "unite." Instead of demanding, why not explore what it would take to build that unity, and try to find a way to accomplish that?

Build bridges. Don't burn them.

are options. But only one option will save us from wwIII paying for more mccain jokes or having a republican presidents that likes sexual assault jokes which can't bode well for women.

You might think you're preaching to the choir here, since we all have to support the candidate or force tombstoning, but for the myriad of lurkers, what they here from this logic is "OMFG.COM you better vote for Obama or you risk your immortal soul! Only a selfish heathen would possibly vote third party!"

You may be able to bully down someone to promise to vote Obama to your face, but I'm telling you, the minute they walk into that voting booth they are on their own. You will never know what they really chose. If you give so much of a damn about the candidate, quit making his supporters look like playground jerks who wish to quash reasoned criticism and discussion.

This isn't even directed primarily at you, but honestly I think some people just really want a fight and don't think that what they say has any effect here. It might or might not, but to sit here expecting the sky to fall because some people are voicing their concerns just makes us look like cultists.

I trust, as always, the mods to make the reasoned and admittedly somewhat yet unavoidably arbitrary judgments about what does and doesn't fly here. We don't need to read a bunch of frothing at the mouth posts about anyone who doesn't toe the line adequately.

That's appreciated.

That's also my point; that you don't unify people behind Obama by demanding that they unify or leave.

Start with this: the nominee has been at pains to distance himself from the left wing of the party, while embracing the center, the right of center, and republicans.

This is not a recipe guaranteed to get the Democratic left, independent left, and 3rd party left to unify behind him. What are you, as a mainstream Democrat, doing, to convince the candidate, and the party, to reach out to the left? What is the nominee, and the party, offering the left, other than a "lesser of two evils" vote?

That's the place to start. Making sure that the left, unless you are willing to concede their votes, have a place at the table.

some specificity would sure be helpful

When he refers to the "excesses" of the 60s and 70s (that's the left, if you can't figure it out,) and admires Ronald Reagan for changing our trajectory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFLuOBsNMZA

I'm pretty progressive (otherwise known as an old-school moderate), and I feel you - especially on the religious bullshit - but it's not like we can do anything but hurt his chances by bitching.

Once he's elected, we can kick his ass.

He's certainly better than the alternative, anyway.

As long as nobody tells me to get in line or leave, anyway, which is the point of my response to the OP.

That kind of demand is guaranteed to keep me on strike.

If it helps, I'm pretty sure that the OP was directed at PUMA fools more than us lefties.

I get frustrated when there is a wide-scale assumption that disagreement with Obama is because one is, or was, a Clinton supporter.

It denies dissent from the left.

and it is a problem right now... but I think it will get better after all the PUMA/Clinton shit dies down. Many Obama supporters have gotten a bit trigger happy because it is getting hard to tell the difference between "dissent from the left" and divisiveness from freeper land.

I'm not one to take those attacks from the trigger happy without pointing out that they are flinging arrows at the wrong targets.

I don't think anyone wants to push out the lefties, but this PUMA "hillary or bust" shit needs to end now that we have a ticket.

I'm okay with everything as long as the insults and bullying stops. No one here
or anywhere else has any right to tell anyone to get lost. Period.

I'm waiting and biding my time. I hope Obama gets elected. Then he'll be the
one to watch. After all (as Harry Truman said), the BUCK STOPS right at the desk
in the Oval Office.

And yet you claim to be immune to manipulation!
LOL!

including shut up, get in line, leave, etc., which is the point that you are obviously avoiding.

Any more than expecting people to shut up and get in line, and UNIFY, DAMN IT, because you belligerently demand that they do, is rational.

Like we've kicked Nancy Pelosi's ass? Or how about Harry Reid? Have we kicked HIS ass?

Sorry -- once bitten twice shy. ESPECIALLY in the way we've been treated SINCE 2006.

far enough down this thread I would find someone who said exactly what I was thinking. Thanks. Too bad isn't it? People need to realize that the days of "kicking ass" to move our candidates or our officials is mostly, if not entirely, over.

And its over. Bitching now is senseless.

There was no acceptable candidate left on the ballot 5 months before my primary ever arrived.

It's nice to know that the election is "over," lol. I guess Obama can just close all his campaign offices and save the money and effort.

Shit, we don't even need a convention, if it's all over.

When the election is REALLY over, then it's too late. Then you've elected someone on a platform you don't want, giving them a mandate for that platform. NOW, when they need to earn your vote, is the time to dissent.

so while your vote isn't obeyed, its does have voice. If your undecided about which party most closely represents your views, then your probably on the wrong board.

once the election has started, its better that you speak your voice to those who would oppose your closest match rather than those who already stand with you. Your facing the wrong way saying the wrong things. Your clothes are probably on inside out as well.

These things are not ideal, they are reality. Which is also something you can change if you follow the above formula.

about whether or not I'm on the right board. I've been on this one longer than you have.

Neither party comes anywhere close to representing my views. That doesn't mean I go home and don't vote. It's my right and responsibility as a citizen to participate.

I don't agree with your formula. It's as simple as that.

Your formula has me electing a candidate with a mandate that I don't support. Once the mandate is given, there is no reason whatsoever for my voice to matter. The only time my voice DOES mean anything is when I vote.

That means NOW. Now is the only time my voice carries any weight at all.

"My" being figurative for all of us, especially those of us who aren't happy with the nominee's agenda.

I support everything you have said on this thread. NOBODY CAN BE BULLIED INTO A VOTE. To even suggest so is to violate the whole principles a representative democracy stands for.

As I've said many times, you might be able to bully someone into promising to vote to your face, but the minute they step into that booth, they are ALONE. HAHAHAHHAHA what percentage of American married people cheat? If you can't even get the majority of married spouses to keep their vows, how the fuck do you expect to manipulate someone into voting for something that doesn't resonate with them?

People who aggressively try to get others to toe some line instead of actually talking to them about their reasons for being attracted to a 3rd party candidate are in for some big surprises.

When did the people start serving the government instead of vice versa?

We don't owe ANY politician SHIT. THEY OWE US.

<quote>
If your undecided about which party most closely represents your views, then your probably on the wrong board.
</quote>

Because there's no way that the failure of the party to represent the members could be the leaders' fault, right? Okay yeah, I get it.

then its no longer your party. Instead its your responsibility to find one that does. This being DU, its pretty much here to support the democratic nominee and party.

doesn't want to live up to that promise then?

It's sounding so much like another group I won't mention around here.

Too late pal. I just put you on ignore, your ramblings are futile and selfish, to say the least. Come back in four years when you can interfere again.

Try bullying someone into submission, and if that doesn't work, run away.

Its essentially what your doing.

It's also not "internal disruption." Dissent is not "internal disruption." Internal disruption is caused by attempting to bully people into compliance instead of working to reach consensus.

its not a fine line. Most of the disruptors here claim to simply be concerned about the direction the party is heading in. This is all fine until the bashing begins. The rise of the "concern troll"

The simple fact is that the nominees are set. If you view this as a lesser of two evils battle, then perhaps you should consider McCain's potential when you start talking to indies. As far as im concerned, ill support the ticket as its laid because i saw what lack of unity caused in recent elections.

In elections, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

I can't see things so "either/or." I can easily see the disaster of McCain without thinking that Obama is somehow a hero ready to save me.

I didn't respond to this thread to talk about Obama. I responded to point out that you don't get unity by demanding compliance.

That's still true.

What action are you taking to get a party that you can support? I am pretty left myself and I am supporting Obama (I'm far too old to be "cultish" about him or anyone else, however). I have differed in the past with Obama on his healthcare proposal as I prefer single payer. I can't get single payer right away so I'll take the long roundabout road to get there. I would imagine that is one instance where you would disagree with me. So what are you doing about it, if that is the case, or other issues on which you disagree with Obama? Besides voicing your opinion here (fine with me) what else are you doing? How much time do you spend doing it? I ask because I have a neighbor who spends a great deal of his time online arguing with people who differ with him and writing LTTEs constantly to our local newspapers. OK, good 1st amendment stuff. What else, I keep wondering?

I also wonder if you are not wasting your time here. Would not a better use of your time be spent either starting or supporting an alternative left party to achieve your goals? Arguing with people on DU can get you only so far. There comes a point where you are wearing out the seat at your computer more than the soles of your shoes with your "activism."

Just something to think about...

Some of the actions open to me to "get a party that I can support" are illegal to discuss at DU. It is legal, of course, to discuss the direction the Democratic Party is headed, and anything necessary to, in Obama's words, "change the trajectory."

I'm spending what time I have. I won't have as much time to chat about stuff on DU for awhile, since summer break is over and I'm at work all day and taking care of other duties as well. I'll check in regularly, but will have less to say. Obviously, the response I gave to the OP on this thread is taking more time than I've really got. I just feel like I ought to respond when people talk to me, so here I am.

LTTEs; I've written a few in the past, but I really don't want my name in the paper. My students' parents aren't confident that I can keep politics out of my classroom when they read me in the paper regularly. When I want to write a letter, I write to my reps and to Democratic Party leaders at several levels. My mom writes regular LTTEs. When I have something I want to express, I tell her about it and she sometimes shoots a letter off.

I'm involved in a couple of groups working directly on issues of importance to me.

I used to donate, but not any more. I'm having a hard time stretching my paychecks these days.

When there is a candidate I strongly support, I write letters for the campaign.

As far as whether or not time at DU is a waste, that remains to be seen.

It wasn't in the early years. When DU was still "underground," it was more accurately described as "one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet." As the board has grown, it has become more centrist. Not unexpected. I'm not the only leftist left. There are still some great people here. The board is diminished by the loss of many great people who've done just that; seen the direction and walked away. That time may come. If it does, then it means I've given up, not just on DU, but on the party.

Frankly, I don't think the party can afford to purge the left. I think it's the wrong move to alienate natural allies while you reach out to the right wing. I hope there are Democrats that still appreciate somebody saying so.

I like DU a lot and spend more time here than at any other website. I've been here since just before the 04 election but I can't say I have seen the movement to the center that you have. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen it. I have seen a variety of views, however. And I have really appreciated the factual information I have found here when I asked for it (as I do a lot, to help me better understand the myriad issues of the day). It's interesting. I have never felt compelled to use the Ignore function because I don't understand why I would need it. If I get really angry it is toward the Republican Party, not usually toward DUers. That is why your views on this thread don't particularly upset me (in fact, I DO think we need opposing points of view). I'm not in agreement in several areas with you but I wouldn't shut you down for anything. DU has become a bit of a refuge, I must admit, for Democrats who are over-the-top pissed off at what the Republican Party has done to our country and I accept that for what it is.

I hope all goes well for you. What do you teach, if I may ask?

I am wondering why the Obama followers keep telling us to "get lost." If we
get lost, Obama loses by a landslide. Don't they even realize this?

Why is the Democratic Party turning into a Cult of Personality for Barack Obama?
Why are we being bullied and mistreated for expressing our fears and our opinions.

As you say, it seems to be an attempt to purge the party of dissenting voices. They
don't want to hear about our issues at all.

I wonder if Obama knows how they feel?

(goes off to send an email to Obama with a link to this thread. . .)

the PUMA contingent comes here bashing Obama and praising Hill. This creates arguments that i believe are intended to drive folks like you away.

As far as im concerned, you have as much right here as i do. Unless, of course, you start trolling.

than she was before the end of the primary season. She is intellgent, astute and
articulate. In my opinion, she understands the issues that matter to ME.
She didn't turn into a pumpkin just because Obama won the primaries.
She is STILL the great person she was before. Only now that greatness will turn to the
work of the US Senate, where she will watch out for people like me. Obama will show wisdom
if he respects her counsel.

I've always thought that Obama was a good person, too--make no mistake about it.
As a black woman of over 50 years of age I am just having trouble understanding him.
I hope that his positions will become clearer in the coming weeks, and I hope that he spends time
explaining some of the things he supports and why he supports them. These are my concerns, and I
think that these concerns are fair. For someone to slam me, tell me to "shut up and get on for the
ride" isn't fair, especially when I have no idea where the "bus" is going.

im not so sure that your the actual target of the "move on" slander.

Praise her all you want. If you come here BASHING Obama and praising hillary, you'll get no respect from me or from many others. You might even get some granite.


But praise on.

praise her. It is not about her at this point, good, bad or indifferent.

I am one who wants to do more than defeat McCain. I want to actually win something when I "win."

The only way I can see to do that is to keep voicing what constitutes a "win," whether or not it disagrees with the candidate.

This bullshit "cult of personality" meme was bad enough during the primaries, it's absolutely inexcusable now.

sw

We'll just wait and see.

I am very good at waiting. . .

And don't lay your selfish bullshit on those of us who have sucked it up election after election to vote for the Dem candidate whether we liked him or not. We do it because opposing the Republicans is the right thing to do for the sake of EVERYBODY.

I'm not going to kiss anybody's ass who wants to fucking threaten me with withholding their vote. Fuck that kind of selfishness. You're not special, you're not even a damn Democrat if you refuse to vote for the Democratic candidate.

sw

Yes, many of us "have sucked it up election after election to vote for the Dem candidate whether we liked him or not" and more importantly than whether or not we "liked" the candidate, also whether or not we went forward or backward as a result. We have steadily gone backward. It has been miserable, and many of us secretly wonder if it has been the best course of action, but then we face the fact that there is no alternative and we feel like we are helplessly standing by watching a train wreck in slow motion.

That makes it tempting to savage anyone who reminds us of all of that misery, and to blame them for our misery.

Ir was bad enough when we had to vote for the lesser of two evils time after time, as both moved farther and farther to the right. But now, it has gotten so bad that not only must we vote for the lesser of two evils, we cannot even complain about it without getting threatened and bullied.

That is a sign that things are coming unraveled. Those pointing out that things are unraveling are not the ones causing the problem. Their only crime is in reminding us of it.

try not to bash those of us who support Obama in the process.

BTW, it's what, 10 weeks till the election, I think your chair at the table broke a long time ago.

You were placed on ignore 5 minutes AFTER the post you're responding to.

you are apparently unaware of the true genius. My worthy opponent "sees ignored people;" his genius allows him to ignore people and engage them at the same time.

Do you really have so little to do that you follow him around to see, not only who he puts on ignore, but when? If so, you might want to look a little further.

Are you worried that he can't answer for himself, so you must rush to his defense?

I was just enjoying the thread, noticed a truly nonsensical post, and pointed it out. Is there any factual issue you care to dispute, or would you simply prefer to just keep posting those adorable little rofl smilies?

is the person I was talking to when you decided to step in.

Is that normal for you? To step into the middle of a conversation to address what you hear without any context, or awareness of the person it was said to?

Stop trying to purge the party of dissent.

Not just shutting up. Thats what this whole civil liberties thing is about.

That said, I think that those complaining the most are really damaging their own chances of enacting policy on any of their issues. Whether you are a Centrist concerned about the liberal Obama, or a leftist concerned about the centrist Obama, What are the chances that losing this election will help any of the causes you care about? If Obama is elected, there is a chance he will be with you, whoever you are. McCain will not.

Taking it a step further, What is the likelihood that the party, in defeat, will suddenly embrace your brand of Liberality? Defeat will merely widen the gaps in our coalition. And will the Republicans winning now in any way bring their party toward the center? No, it will continue its headlong drive out as far into right field as they can go. The foul line will be the new center. And that should concern us all.

Win. In winning, there is opportunity. In losing there is merely more empty arguments about what should have been, and in 4 more years the democrat will in truth be a Republican, and the Republican will be a Facist. Even more than you may think it already is that way.

There really is no reason to expect that dissent at any point, now or later, will ever change the march to the right.

The chances that the Democratic Party will swing to the left? Poor, regardless of what I do. Whether I ignore reality, drink the kool-aid, and start gushing about how good times are on their way if we just shut up and march with Obama, whether I hang in, dragging my feet, to slow the march to the right down a bit, or whether I throw up my hands and walk away.

I don't see being locked into the center-right, or marching further to the right, as a "win," regardless of who wins an election. The opportunity to "win" anything, was lost, imo, last January. The only thing left to accomplish is stalemate.

As someone who gave me a thoughtful response, I'd ask you for another.

Of those 3 choices, what should the party majority really hope I do? Walk away so they don't have to deal with someone pointing out party or candidate flaws? Pretend that they don't exist, thereby giving up the effort to create REAL, authentic change for the better? Or stay put and fight to keep the party honest?

I find your approach to be too fatalistic. Why is there no reason to expect that your dissent will change anything?

For myself, I ran into this choice very early on. Before, in fact, the major candidates were even out campaigning. In my view at that time, the democratic party was really fucked up. Pelosi and the hundred days had not taken care of any of the problems that were near and dear to me, and in fact Bush was continuing to get his policies passed with little or no resistance.

So I took myself to the logical ends of the situation. What are the choices in the end? Change has to happen, because the status quo is impossible to maintain. So the real question is how that change will happen. And I think it is a matter of either reform or revolution. While Revolution has its advantages, namely you can be active and really whip some change out in a hurry, it also has a cost. Given that we are dealing with the USA who waits all year to explode things for celebration, I think revolution here would be VERY high on the destructiveness scale. Reform is a lot harder work, given it has to be done over time, bit by bit, with lots of persuading and follow up.

Given that, it was an easy choice for me. I work to get the best nominee I think we can get elected, and then I work to keep that president honest, and at the same time work to push the center back where it belongs. Because that is the biggest change. The center of politics has been effected, and I think a large part of that has been the repeated republican winning. And frankly, I see some good signs in our country, along with the negative ones. And from the start, I have supported Obama, given that mindset, and despite the fact Kucinich is the only politician I would trust with my non-existant children. Back to what I said in my first post. Winning is a game changer. Especially repeated winning.

Personally, I would ask that you stay, and work with us to keep the party honest, but also temper that with the knowledge that while Winning without reform is useless, so is reform without winning the power to enact it. And then temper all of that with the fact that many people here are not just in favor of Obama, they are damnscared of what could happen if he loses. And that makes for some mighty prickly conversations if you want to get at the kernel of truth behind a topic. Of course, it makes great fun for those who just like to argue.

Why is there no reason to expect that my dissent will change anything?

Because it never has.

So everything it exactly as it always was? the 2008 is the same as 1950, which is the same as 1650, which is the same as it always was?

Nothing has changed? Because if it changed, someone changed it. Somehow.