Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

BOMBSHELL FROM THE RIGHT FOR MCCAIN: Two Former GOP Congressmen Say He IS UNFIT TO BE PRESIDENT!

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:36 PM
Original message
BOMBSHELL FROM THE RIGHT FOR MCCAIN: Two Former GOP Congressmen Say He IS UNFIT TO BE PRESIDENT!
From http://leboutillier.blogspot.com /

Monday, August 18, 2008
TWO FORMER GOP CONGRESSMEN TO U.S. COMBAT FORCES WORLDWIDE: MCCAIN UNFIT TO SERVE AS YOUR COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF


Ex-Reps. Warn Troops: As Senator He Abandoned American POWs Trapped in Indochina; as President He'll Abandon You

By

Bill Hendon & John LeBoutillier

Ed. note: This message from former U.S. Congressmen Bill Hendon (R-NC) and John LeBoutillier (R-NY) is being posted today on numerous military blogs and websites.

~~~~~~~~~~

He has told me several times over the years that the myth of live POWs was a cruel hoax on the families. He chaired hearings into the issue in the 1990s and found nothing. The committee pored over thousands of records and every claim of a sighting, no matter how outlandish, says Salter. It was all untrue.

Jonathan Alter, When Ross Perot Calls..., Newsweek.com January 16, 2008


Senator John McCain's heroic and inspiring wartime service in Vietnam notwithstanding, we know from personal experience he is not fit to serve as Commander-in-Chief of America's armed forces. Here is how we know this:

In mid-summer 1991, the U.S. Senate created the Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs and charged it with conducting a no-holds-barred investigation into the long-festering matter of American POWs reportedly still held captive by the Communist North Vietnamese and Pathet Lao. On the day the legislation creating the Select Committee was passed, August 2, a Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll conducted nationwide showed that 69% of Americans surveyed believed that Americans were still held captive in Southeast Asia and 75% believed the U.S. government wasnt doing enough to get them home.

Following months of negotiations between the committee and a very reluctant George H. W. Bush administration, committee intelligence investigators were finally able to obtain the postwar intelligence files relating to live POWs. Committee investigators spent some 2,700 man hours vetting, analyzing and crosschecking the postwar intelligence. They found it a textbook blend of human intelligence (HUMINT); intercepts of secret enemy radio traffic (SIGINT), and images taken by unmanned reconnaissance drones and U.S. spy satellites (IMINT). The committee's intelligence investigators told the senators that collectively the intelligence indicated the North Vietnamese and Pathet Lao had held back hundreds of POWs at Operation Homecoming in 1973 and that many were still alive in captivity during the late 1980s and early 1990s.

By the time committee investigators finally began briefing the senators in secret sessions in early spring, 1992, the issue of live POWs had become, as McCain later described it, "white hot;" this not only because of intense public interest in the plight of the POWs, but also because Texas businessman and longtime POW advocate H. Ross Perot had entered the presidential race, and had done so amid press accounts that he thought President Bush was not doing enough to bring the POWs home. By late May Perot was in first place in the national polls, ahead of President Bush, who was in second place, and the presumptive Democratic nominee, Governor Bill Clinton, who was in third. What would the committee find? Might a ruling that 69% of the American people were right and that, in fact, there were live POWs still held half a world away throw the election to Perot? How could it not?

Enter John McCain.

Given his wartime experiences as a POW in Vietnam, Sen. John McCain was by default the most powerful and influential member of the Select Committee. Members on both sides of the aisle deferred to his judgment; reporters hung on his every pronouncement. And so when McCain, his chief of staff Mark Salter and their allies on the Select Committee joined forces with top Bush administration officials to assail, ridicule, attack, discredit, photoshop, retouch, manipulate, massage and/or cherry-pick the intelligence in order to destroy its intelligence value and keep the matter of live POWs from becoming an issue in the 1992 election, the live POWs never had a chance.

How McCain and Salter and the others went about doing this is a case study in how powerful government officials can manipulate intelligence to make it say what they want it to say - and the main reason we believe that John McCain must not be Commander-in-Chief of our armed forces.

During that spring and summer of 1992, McCain and the other members of the committee were briefed on some 925 HUMINT reports the investigators had deemed plausible, credible. These intelligence reports were some of the several thousand reports the U.S. government had received from human sources who testified they had personally observed or had been told or had otherwise learned about American servicemen in captivity after Operation Homecoming. Many of the reports corroborated one another as to location, time and circumstance, e.g., independent sources repeatedly reported seeing American POWs being held in the same area; in the same town or village, and/or at the exact same prison at the same time or over a period of time and, of course, absent IMINT and/or SIGINT, corroboration by independent human sources is the best lie detector ever devised by man. But what did McCain and Salter make of this crucial intelligence? Not one of these reports of American POWs held prisoner after Operation Homecoming was credible, they loudly declared; instead, all 925 sources were either (1) lying, or (2) confused about what he or she had actually seen. Not one report, McCain and Salter declared, related to American POWs trapped in Indochina after Operation Homecoming.

The SIGINT the half-dozen or so postwar intercepts of secret Pathet Lao radio transmissions where the PL were heard describing how, when, where and/or why they were holding and/or moving American POWs from one point to another inside their country - got the same treatment. When analyzed carefully by committee intelligence investigators and cross-checked with the HUMINT, it was clear these postwar radio intercepts alone collectively described the confinement and/or movement of well over 100 American POWs inside Laos. McCains and Salters ruling? Same as with the POWs described in the HUMINT, nothing to any of it. All radio intercepts are false."

Finally came the IMINT the priceless postwar satellite images showing missing pilots' names, their official secret four-digit authenticators, secret USAF/USN escape and evasion (E&E) codes given to them and/or other Im alive, get me the hell out of here messages our men had laid out on the ground in hopes U.S. spy satellites would image their plea and rescue forces would be dispatched - and the similar, shocking result. A missing USAF flight officers name along with a valid USAF/USN escape and evasion code imaged in a field adjacent to a prison in northern Vietnam on June 5, 1992 photoshopped right out of the image, disappeared, gone! Nineteen four-digit authenticators matching those of missing airmen imaged in rice paddies along Route 4 in northern Laos - similarly photoshopped right out of the satellite image! The name of another USAF pilot and four digit number laid out beside a jungle road in northern Laos - "naturally occurring shadows on the ground," they said. A valid E&E code followed by the four-digit authenticator of another USAF flight officer in a field adjacent to a prison in northern Vietnam natural shadings in the field not man-made intentional signals. The letters "USA," each 12 feet tall and together stretching over 37 feet across, and below them a huge 24 foot tall by 19 feet across valid secret USAF/USN E&E code imaged in a rice paddy in northern Laos - "a young Laotian boy's handiwork that he had copied off an envelope," McCain and Salter "explained" in McCain's 2002 memoir Worth the Fighting For. And on and on it went. (See two versions of map of Indochina showing the 925 postwar HUMINT reports and how they cluster and corroborate one another, and the postwar SIGINT and IMINT hits at http://www.thepowerhour.com/news3/maps_bill_hendon.htm ). Also see An Enormous Crime, cover photo and Chapter 31, "1992, The Fragging."

John McCain could have saved these men but chose not to. For that reason - and because one can photoshop pleas for help out of desert sand and/or rocky, mountain terrain just as easily as one can photoshop them out of jungle terrain, fields and rice paddies - he must not be accorded the highest and most sacred of all honors - that of serving as Commander-in-Chief of America's armed forces.

~~~~~~~~~


Former Congressman Hendon is co-author with attorney Elizabeth Stewart of the 2007 New York Times bestseller, AN ENORMOUS CRIME; The Definitive Account of American POWs Abandoned in Southeast Asia (Thomas Dunne Books/St. Martins Press). Ms. Stewarts father is missing in action in northern Vietnam. In reviewing their book, Publishers Weekly declared Controversial former North Carolina congressman Hendon and attorney Stewart make the case that the U.S. knowingly left hundreds of POWs in Vietnam and Laos in 1973, and that every presidential administration since then has covered it up. (Publishers Weekly, week of April 9, 2007) Kirkus Reviews wrote that An Enormous Crime is sprawling indictment of eight U.S. administrations. Hendon and Stewartappear nonpartisan in their disdain for governmental inaction and double-dealing. A convincing, urgent argument. (Kirkus Reviews, April 15, 2007) An Enormous Crime is currently available at some 400 libraries in the continental U.S. and overseas. (See list of libraries at http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/123029704&tab=holdings?loc... ). You can read almost 100 pages of the book free of charge by going to Google Book Search at:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=izp2Dj_WOxIC&dq=...



Hendon served two terms on the U.S. House Task Force on POW/MIA Affairs; as consultant on POW/MIA Affairs with an office in the Pentagon in 1983, and as an intelligence investigator assigned full-time to the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs during 1991 and 1992. He has appeared on CBSs 60 Minutes, ABCs 20/20, Dateline NBC, ABCs Good Morning America, the NBC Today Show, Saturday Today, CNNs Larry King Live and on a number of network news and talk shows.



Former Congressman LeBoutillier served on the U.S. House Task Force on POW/MIA Affairs and is the author of VIETNAM NOW; The Case for Normalization (Praeger). He is a NewsMax.com pundit and a nationally recognized political commentator. Mr. LeBoutillier rose to national prominence in 1974 when, as a college student at Harvard, he raised over a quarter million dollars for a former Republican challenger against South Dakota Senator George McGovern. Mr. LeBoutillier's efforts caught the notice of President Ford's re-election campaign and in 1976 he was appointed regional coordinator, responsible for all field activities in New Jersey.

After graduating Magna Cum Laude from Harvard College, Mr. LeBoutillier completed a master's degree at Harvard Business School.

Mr. LeBoutillier has been a prolific writer, beginning with his best-selling book Harvard Hates America (October 1978). Later he authored Vietnam Now (September 1989) and co-authored Primary, a novel (September 1979). He has contributed to many major newspapers and magazines, including The New York Times, The New York Post and The Wall Street Journal, among others.

In 1980, Mr. LeBoutillier was elected to represent New York's 6th District. He defeated a 16-year Democrat incumbent and became the youngest member of the 97th Congress. In the House, Congressman LeBoutillier served on the House Foreign Affairs Committee and as a member of Special House POW/MIA Task Force.

After leaving Congress, Mr. LeBoutillier continued to be active in POW/MIA affairs. He currently runs Account for POW/MIA Inc., dedicated to recovering living American POWs in Southeast Asia. He also has been a frequent commentator and host of several media programs. He is a frequent guest on radio and television shows. In 1981 he conducted an exclusive interview with Alexander Solzhenitsyn for NBC's Tomorrow show. He has hosted radio talk show programs on WMCA radio and WABC radio. In 1984, Mr. LeBoutillier interviewed Richard M. Nixon for the ABC Network radio in his first live network radio appearance since leaving the White House. He has been a frequent guest on many national talk show programs, including the Today show, ABC's 20/20, Nightline and CNN's Crossfire.



Both men have traveled extensively to South and Southeast Asia on behalf of Americas POWs and MIAs. Hendon has visited the region some 33 times; LeBoutillier a dozen times.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Jesus H. Christ.
they need to get these guys on tv to tell their stories.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Vietnam Is Not Holding Any POW's
That's an old right-wing fabrication.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. There were MIAs when McCain was blocking the documents that could lead to their release
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/64498077.htm... (pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Bodies+of+26+American+MIAs+to+Be+Released&pqatl=google

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=313...

There are still MIA bodies over there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. It's Disgusting how quick McCain is to turn his back on his brothers.
there's nothing patriotic about that slimeball.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
103. Bodies are one thing...
telling everyone there are still live men being held captive is another.

My hubby met a couple of "MIA's" living in Indonesia... some of those guys walked away and never came back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
norepubsin08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
45. who cares if it is true or not
if it fuck's up McLames campaign more power to the story-give it some legs!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. And it isn't Democrats saying it either. Let's just make sure it is sent
to KO and some of the better newspapers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #47
58. I tried to send the article to Keith
it did not make it to him. Mail failure or something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
71. save it
if it's not made the MSM by the time Rachel get's her show, send it to her. In fact you could probably contact her at Air America now about it.

There is still time in the campaign. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
62. I Care
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 11:57 AM by Better Believe It
The right-wing has used this lie to attack progressives and will do so again. What if Obama is asked about the alleged POW's in Vietnam.

Do you think he should give credibility to this false charge that Vietnam held POW's in violation of the Geneva Conventions and POW settlement with the United States?

We don't need to lie about McCain and other reactionaries to defeat them. In fact, lying only weakens the progressive movement. Truth is on our side.
That's all we really need.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #62
105. again, tell us how this is a lie. If you are just shilling for the other
side, there are better places to be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Duncan Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
64. Are you shitting us?
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 12:50 PM by Duncan
Thats a typical right wing attitude you got there. Please lose it.

edited to add: I agree this should get some legs though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SissyBoy Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
111. I Agree
Obama needs to pull out all of the stops. We know the Repo.s don't care about the truth.

I sent it to KO. Give him a couple days he will run it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
88. Yeah, everyone knows Chuck Norris rescued the remaining ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. What about Rambo's heroic efforts in this regard?
Guy takes a white-hot knife to the face, and you're going to mock his contribution? You sicken me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. The POWs he rescued were wussy ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
104. you don't know that. if you know that, tell us what you know. Otherwise
I will believe these guys. John McCain has a lot to answer for, the beast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. I was thinking the same thing!
Obama Could swift-boat right up McCain's sorry ass with material like this, if it wasn't for all this "taking the high road" non-sense. When you have something to use, use it! You know McCain will!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #34
48. He takes the highroad - he said nothing about our taking the same
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 10:47 AM by jwirr
road. I would like to see more adds by some of the Democratic groups like Truthout and Moveon. Also letters to the editor with references to things like this. ETC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
65. Yippee Skippee!
For perhaps twenty years I've been carping about how Democrats have just "taken it," thinking that it made them somehow more noble to not fight back. Pardon the graphic image, but until very recently * or some other rethug could holler "bend over" and the Dems would grab their ankles and just let Georgie do his business. One of the things I love about Obama is that he fights back. No sooner does some asshole put out a new swiftboat book than the Obama camp has a 40-page refutation of it up on their website. I don't want Obama to have to lie to win, but I want him to fight. We know that as election day approaches McSame and his coven will dredge up everything they can: Obama doesn't wear a flag pin! His wife isn't proud to be an American! He thinks before he speaks! If this story is true, by all means hammer it home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pyrzqxgl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
87. Using stuff like this that may be fabrication makes Obama no better than McCain!
stay out of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
66. Yes, that would be the end of it for McCain n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. Let's get B1-Bob Dornan on the TV as well
He has a few choice words for Johnny Songbird.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. These guys need to be all over the media.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. Scary and deep. I wonder if any POWs were ever found after that. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wow! Wow!
I heard about and saw clips of his despicable treatment of some of the families of the MIAs, this certainly takes it even further.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Today is Wednesday.. Did that story make it off that blog and into the MSM?


I haven't been watching the news much and may have missed it...

Was it on the NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams tonight?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R.
Thanks Berni.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. These people are nuts. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
Let these screwballs do what they want--you can't stop them anyway, and they may cost McCain a few votes. But loudly & firmly disavow them and avoid anything that might be spinnable into a connection. They are an albatross looking for a neck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Just spreading the word. I'm happy to see McCain's Base Destroy His Campaign.
In fact, I'll give them a little visibility boost to do it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Just get out of their way.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Personally, I've never believed there were POWs left behind...
Not in significant numbers, anyway.

But if they want to believe that, more power to them!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #33
43. How do you define "significant numbers"?
I think ONE is a significant number, and is too many!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
113. Let me clarify
ONE is too many. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility that some rouge outfit may have not been "with the program" when the POWs were turned over at the end of the war. Some may have been left behind, but not at the doing of the Vietnamese government.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
25. "They are an albatross looking for a neck." EXACTLY. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
invictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. Manchurian Candidate
That angry old guy from AZ strikes me as a cross between Senator Iselin and Raymond Shaw.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WheelWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
14. Mother of Buddha
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
15. Recommended and Kicked. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RedShoes Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
16. It's not a bombshell, it is a matter of fact. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
17. Photoshop is a problem for me. At least as a verb and the larger time frame.
As a verb alone, I accept that "photoshop" can mean many things when it comes to editing an image.

The real question is if all we have left are "photoshopped" images from the VN war, where are the originals and how do we know what remains is "doctored" nka as "photoshopped" images?" Yes, the motives are there and well referenced, but how do we know for sure?

There were no mass personal computers at the time of McCain's capture and "photoshop" image editing was, I don't know, an idea in the oven.

I need a before and after or vise versa if I am to accept this evidence as proof. I agree that the motive is established, but that is still just here-say without any actual evidence.

OMG, I think I just wasted minutes of my life on a meaningless DU thread. So, suck on this. :smoke:


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. It used to be called airbrushing. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
40. Photoshop used to be called airbrushing?!?!?!?
And automobiles used to be called horses, I guess.
Airbursh and Photoshop are two very different things, not merely two words for the same thing. So in fact, it did not 'used to be called airbrushing'. Airbrushing was and in fact is, called airbrushing. Photoshop is a whole different animal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Wake up cranky much?
While you are technically correct, I'm missing the point of your slam.

... and the car you rode in on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DallasNE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
18. Sorry To Disagree
This has the look and feel of another Swiftboat like character assassination gang. I would steer clear of these two. I think there are a lot of real reasons McCain should not be elected so we don't need to go in the gutter with people like this, so count me out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Uh, yeah, sure, whatever you say.
:sarcasm:

If the Right wants to swift-boat their own, I say all the better. GO FOR IT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RNdaSilva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Yep. GO OR IT!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. Viet Nam is not holding POWs.
What possible motive could they have for doing this? There will always be MIAs, in every war. There are probably ex G.I.s living in Nam voluntarily. I worked with a Vietnam veteran that swore he wanted to go back as he loved that country. He really loved it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
35. How illogical. They have worked for years to help the families, they have
studied the documents that were studied, they have no record of other deception that you use to support your claim.

These two - are they not honorable men. If you say not - make a case?

Limp 'support' for whom?

Do you know what's involved for a Republican to buck their Party?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
20. To normalize relations, both Kerry and McCain went looking very hard, through crypts, painstaking...
work and nothing. Families and mercenaries for money keep this alive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. The difference is McCain blocked the release of records on MIAs/POWs (Kerry did not)
This has royally ticked off Vietnam Vets.

And what would you do if you had lost a loved one over there and the only information on them was locked in a classified locker in D.C. with McCain sitting on it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
janet118 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
85. Gee, why would he do something like that?
Hmmmm-m-m-m . . . what could be in those records that would require blocking them? I wonder . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Let them do what they do
We can't control the Republicans.

I'm very much in a "there is no honor without victory" mood. McCain above 30% tends to make me unreasonable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
24. Set up...
...by someone. I would be very careful with this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. It's the right attacking McCain. As long as we stay out of the way
And give the occasionally "Really? Wow. That's very interesting." then let the right destroy McCain's campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #26
50. yes it would be useful to watch them 'eat their own'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
61. It appears so...
...but things are not always as they appear. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
27. Goggle "garwood mccain" sometime and see what you find
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/may282008/mccain_gar...

"In 1979, when the last POW unexpectedly returned from Vietnam with stories about other American POW's still alive, McCain went slightly ballistic and did everything he could to discredit a man who had been taken captive and held for an incredibly long 14 years."


http://www.3rdmarines.net/garwood_debunks_the_debunkers...


http://www.thefrontpageonline.com/articles1-4347/Chapte...

"Recently, Lt. Col. Orson Swindle, U. S. Marine Corp. (ret.), has come forward to champion Sen. McCain and to condemn Larry Stark, Mike Benge and myself for not supporting John McCain for President. One of his comments was that we were not there and did not know John McCain in prison. I can read, and if you give an interview in prison to a Communist publication, detailing the accident aboard your ship, the state of morale, a description of the chain of command and other details, you have not given a propaganda statement. You have given military intelligence. As far as my not knowing Sen. McCain in prison, what Orson Swindle says is absolutely true. I was in Cambodia, but I had to read the statements of McCain and listen to the daily statements over The Voice of Vietnam of highly trained pilots who were not being tortured in 1972 to make them talk.

They did not hear me, and they did not hear the voice of Robert Garwood. But, McCain and the others have no problem attacking him and continuing to accuse him of things a court of law acquitted him of doing.

So much for knowing those of whom we speak. Every year Swindle and McCain spent in Hanoi, I spent on the battlefields of Southeast Asia fighting. Not sorting socks but fighting.

Then I spent 10 months in a hole, chained after being wounded 38 times. I detested the winning damnation of my President and my country, by men, most of whom had not been tortured since 1969. I, like Orson Swindle, detest people who pontificate on things they know nothing about.

That is why I cannot support John McCain. He knows nothing about MIAs or the battlefields of Southeast Asia in general. Yet, he set himself up as the expert. He never knew Garwood, but, he set himself up to be his persecutor."

********


Garwood came home 6 years later than the rest of the POWs, and he reported his direct knowledge of many others still there, thinking of course that they'd be rescued. Instead, McCain saw to it that Garwood was criminally charged and the information discredited. Garwood's "crimes" that McCain was so zealous to prosecute... if true (which wasn't proven), they would've been no worse and maybe less, than what McCain did himself - and got medals for.

When all of this about McCain comes out, and it will eventually because of his candidacy... those who think it's too "dirty" to pay attention to, are going to feel pretty creepy for turning their heads away from the "troops left behind" just like everybody else in earlier years has, and for the same reason each time. Nobody wants to dig up the ugly past.

That's how it went on this far already. Seems to be working for McCain pretty well. Not so good for the left behind though. While their vet-friends wave flags to McCain.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
55. Garwood is living proof that McCain is a lying, backstabber of our troops.
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 11:12 AM by Major Hogwash
When Garwood came back, he was ridiculed as making his story up, they were even going to court martial him for desertion, but more important than that - his very existence blew the lid off of the "they are all home now" theme that the Republicans wanted everyone to swallow whole.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
29. Not fit? What the hell does THAT matter? Bush was the most unfit in history and look who won.
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 04:21 AM by Kablooie
In Republican land, being unfit garners more votes than almost anything else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Exactly. Qualifications mean nothing to them. In fact, if you're qualified - you're unfit...
They want unqualified people running gov't so they can continue to destroy it which in turn, allows them to privatize it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
31. Video evidence of some of the friction ... and McCain's cold heart.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
36. This is the kind of bullshit that TED SAMPLEY has been pushing for years
A dirtbag of a human being who has been stalking and harassing both McCain and Kerry for YEARS. 63 (and counting) stupid sheep have voted up a piss-poor and irrelevant news story today. This is pathetic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. "Irrelevant news story"? Like all the Clinton VP Threads?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
69. What does that have to do with this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. about as much as your first comment did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Your comment is about someone who is not the two people making this attack
And these two people making this attack are former GOP Congressmen. What do they have to do with the person you mentioned.

Furthermore, you assume I'm buying into this. I don't know if it's true or not. I'll let the people making the attack defend their case. You should too. And you should think before speaking next time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. "think before speaking next time" Hah
Perhaps you should think before posting next time, eh? The "I'm innocent, I don't know if what I'm posting is even true!" is one of the biggest, cowardly cop-outs of a rebuttal I have ever had the misfortune to see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. Look, I apologize for being rude to you. But here's the deal. McCain is lying his ass off
And it's hurting Obama.

If these people feel they have a legitimate gripe with McCain, true or not, it's a serious allegation.

And it needs to be looked at and considered.

I don't know how true it is. But even if they don't have the evidence to back up their claims, it will do political damage. And it will be his own base doing it.

In politics there is nothing better than seeing your enemies political base attack their own candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:53 AM
Original message
If none of this is true than why is mcqueeg so hostile to these people?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CazKanlYDg

"Mean spirited McCain is known for throwing temper tantrums, flying off the handle, blowing his top,seething with anger, accusing others of lying, and of mistreating POW/MIA family members. So how will he treat U.S.? POW/MIA families report..."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
72. Because as I said, this whole issue is instigated by Ted Sampley
I wish there were a way to easily search through a user's older posts, as I started a discussion a few months ago on the entire issue of Sampley, McCain, Kerry, and the POW/MIA groups, which contained many informative links to this colorful history. For now, if you simply google his name, I'm sure you'll learn more than enough, such as his felony conviction for assault of a McCain staffer.

Believe me, it isn't as if I wish to stick up for McCain; the very thought of that is nauseating. But this Sampley guy and those few sycophants that toe his line are the ones that have pushed this gibberish for decades. They are analogous to the likes of the Phelps' family and the Westboro baptist Church; repugnant, single-minded parasites blinded by anything other than their own delusions of reality.

There are many, many legitimate issues to hammer McCain on but this isn't one of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. And so Sampley brainwashed Dornan and Smith, huh, and others
who come to the same conclusion. Attacking the messenger won't wash. And it isn't one incident by McCain, it's repeatedly the same agenda from him through time.

Next thing, it'll be like the Church Lady... Sampley made McCain do it! LOL.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
37. This is very scary for two reasons. Clinton and Cheney.
Clinton - this confusion went on for eight years during his administration. Did he help or hinder the truth? We should know now because they are going to try to use him/Dems as the culprits (some way or another).

Cheney - this awakening by these two former Congressmen is (for me) a severe blow to the RNC and their candidate. A possible manipulation of intelligence means McCain could plummet to 35% which represents the loyal self-blinded Republican followers who despise Democrats and all they think Dems stand for.

I've been fearful that just before the election, Bush will step down, Cheney will rise and bring McCain with him.

Or - we could just end up with Cheney through executive orders.

You may not agree to either if you tend to expect more from creatures who are living and breathing.

But, I'm one who has never trusted McCain and could not see what others saw in him as a neutral. And I can't explain my lack of trust.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
41. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
44. Some might say
he's unfit for command because he hasn't bankrupted any companies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #44
59. does it count that his son did?
or that his advisors did? or that he passed legislation to deregulate banks, enron, etc so that the big ceos made oodles while the poor middle class lost their retirement?

maybe there's hope for mccone yet?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
46. BETTER HEADLINE RIGHT HERE>....for John THE BUSH REPUBLICAN McCain
FROM COYOTE UGLY...

Bill: Whew! Look at this. Four people killed last night in New York, no reason at all, police have no leads. Tragic.
Violet: Dad, what are you doing?
Bill: I guess 4 out of 7 million aint so bad. Headline should read 'Millions Survive Night in New York'.

HEADLINE FOR MCCAIN..... with that good old GOP SPIN

TWO FORMER GOP CONGRESSMEN TO U.S. COMBAT FORCES WORLDWIDE: MCCAIN UNFIT TO SERVE AS YOUR COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF others may disagree!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. Yeah a real war hero.....
This is how he treated his own "brothers" of the Vietnam war, how will treat the veterans of the Iraqi war? I also believe, he will forge ahead with a draft for our young women and men in this country if elected in order to forge ahead with the Rebublican/Corporate agenda. I am glad these guys have brought this front and center. Thanks for posting!

K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
49. This is not the first time that McCain's suppression of POW/MIA data
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 10:48 AM by MasonJar
has been cited. Earlier there was an article by a sister of a POW who told why McCain should not be president because of his actions to stop the POW investigation. He does not want his own records out there, and so he is willing to let other Americans fester and die as prisoners. Having personally experienced their situation makes his actions doubly heinous. This article by two men who have worked for the POWs over several years cites explicit evidence so how can anyone attest that there were/are not some prisoners left there? In addition, McCain has voted time and again against the military. He doesn't want them to get college money because they will leave the military. How crass is that? John McCain is not a nice man; he has probably never been a true maverick in the sense of fighting for the truth. Barack needs to put these men in ads. The media will not pursue this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
52. The media will present this as unfair "swift boating"
Funny how that works. This time the charges, though true, won't be taken seriously. They will be dismissed as "swift boating" by his political opponents.

Sorry to be the bearer of reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
68. Even if they do, as we've all learned, negative attacks stick
true or not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #68
81. Right but...
We need to remember that it will hurt McSame less than it hurt Kerry in '04. We need to slam dunk this election, but we all know that and I'm preaching to the choir! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
53. K&R. Thanks for posting this. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
54. As a veteran of MI, I can tell you that this could have an impact.
There is enough specific information to make me pay attention.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
56. ANGRY McCAIN: The Lifelong Hot Temper of John McCain
New video that I posted (but did not create). Thought you might find it interesting. Some great quotes from his Republican colleagues.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
57. I'll take the help, but LeBoot is a quack and stirring up fake POW rumors is cruel
He makes his living off of exploiting the emotional vulnerabilities of elderly relatives of MIAs.
That's not just creepy; it's damn mean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. Thank you. I am glad that others are seeing this story for what it is; a crock of shit
There are many legit issues to hit McCain over, but chasing this tired song and dance, perpetrated by people who have hounded John Kerry just as badly...is not one of them.

A shame that long-standing users like berni were suckered into regurgitating this so easily.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #74
106. What do you base that on? Many were telling MIA people to shut up when this was going on
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. Besides attacking the messenger. How is this a crock? McCain is as deceitful as they come.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. He subpoened all Abramoff records and buried them in committee to protect involved republicans
Even bragged about doing so. Why should his MIA committee be any different
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Bragged about it. So why wouldn't he do the same with the MIA committee
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
60. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. This is a true story & the D's
need to bring this viral.

I would wait until October & gather more & more witness, information etc..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
67. 100th recommendation! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
73. Added to my facebook page
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hasssan1 Donating Member (439 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
79. SEND THIS TO OBAMA'S OFFICE
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 02:01 PM by hasssan1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
80. Hey! More important than the election is the fact that we need to go get these guys. We left them
on the fucking moon. What kind of Americans are we?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. It'll never happen if McCain gets elected. This election is actually more important than the issues
Because the outcome determines if anything will ever change.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #82
95. That is not necessarily true. People could theoretically wake up after the election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
84. K & R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
downindixie Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
86. Why won't McCrud release his military records
cause he's like a sick cat always trying to cover up shit!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
90. 1 month of REAL MEDIA COVERAGE and this would be over
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
91. This is one of the most disturbing things I've ever read.
What if . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
93. at this point this is just heresay of the worst sort....
Show me the data, not some RW character assassination. SHOW US THE EVIDENCE!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mustellus Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
94. In Korea.....
...it was curious that when Americans came back from being POW's in Korea that not one single Air Force or Navy electronic warfare officer seemingly had survived captivity. Our goverment blew it off, in spite of the furor it caused at the times, and the suspicions raised by the pilots who knew that their 'back seater' had ejected alive....

There were similar rumors when Gary Powers was released by the Russians. There were other Americans held... much more secret than he was... And our goverment blew it off.

Come to find out, when the Soviet Union fell, that all the EW operators were sent to the Soviet Union, presumably tortured for what they knew (electronic warfare was new then), and then held... until they died.

Our goverment couldn't / didn't raise the stink necessary to get them back. They were abandoned to their deaths by the country that they sacrificed for.

So: do I believe that there might have been Americans held back in 'Nam? Americans who had seen too much? Americans who had had too much torture? Americans who were still valuable for what they hadn't revealed? Do I find that credible?

Damn F**kin Right I Do.

For a group of Vietnam vets, fellow POWs many, who truly hate John McCain, see:

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com /

And here is a link to a propaganda broadcast by LTCMDR John Sidney McCain for his captors:

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/McCAIN%...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
96. Obama should take a cue from Hillary Clinton on this.
"As far as I know, John McCain is telling the truth about this."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
97. The exploited issue kills
This is a perfect view into so called RW manipulation. When it serves their purpose to exploit a widespread belief they will do so for points alone, and very little action. Not only would real action kill the golden goose, they have no intention ever of benefiting anyone in the grim real world with its fair rewards for accomplishment. Some so once an issue flips and are left entirely outside the power structure that now chooses a destructive opposition to an issue- against the popular will, but more importantly, AGAINST REALITY ITSELF. This has been notably true of military intervention, ostensibly justified for severe humanitarian crises, but denied to democratic presidents, but brutally steamrolled on behalf of oil company empires.

The Iraqis and the invisible POW's, the victims of climate change, unwanted pregnancies, poverty are all ground to pieces when the RW sticks their exploitive profit seeking noses into government. True believers
in the "good" of the righteous stances go the way of the Girondists and Trotskyites, often to their deaths- long after they have destroyed all the competition to their deceitfully brutal power gatherers.

Revisiting this issue again, judging by the reactions of some, show definitely that POW's have been held under the RW piss stream and drowned out of memory. In some ways, doubts of their existence seems worse than the usual death and destruction lying in the wake of political manipulation. Many here, not privy to the satellite evidence which in retrospect seems very compelling as a magic bullet, would have to agree that McCain put himself- against all personal and public duty- at the service of the GOP powerful. In typical fashion he pastes over that flip divide with disgusting lies and power all for his personal career ambition. This is all endemic, protected and promulgated by overweening RW power corrupting all institutions they run for personal profit.

So it is a curiosity, if nothing else to find us listening to the squelched voices of indignant true believers- somewhat daring in the misfortunes of their gods- to turn on their own while speaking up for truth and conscience. Like Lee Atwater on his deathbed conversion, what good will undo any harm? What profits the future? GOP whistleblowers meet the forgotten fates of all POW's and their voice- which those mystery MIA's never had- seems pitiable and impotent considering the importance of the truth.

But oh yes, welcome to the fight against the darkness, those still in its hypocritical employ, the election will be tough in NY for supporters of McCain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
98. another test of the integrity of Television Political coverage: Ayers is relevant to them...will
this be?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
99. They Hate Him! They Really, REALLY Hate Him!
and they are on his side.

(Apologies to Sally Field).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
100. this looks like crap to me
stay away. Other stuff about McCain is bad enough. we don't need this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mustellus Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
101. This is not the only such letter. Spy satellite photos, anyone?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
102. Why would the Vietnamese secretly hold POWs back. If there existence
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 07:18 PM by gbrooks
is secret there is no leverage value for ransom
and there were no North Viet prisoners to exchange
that I heard of. I would suppose any North Vietnamese
would defect on capture in the hopes of asylum in the US.

I just don't see the motive or advantage of the Viets
holding prisoners.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #102
110. They bombed burned and killed relatives and burned their homes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. Look how many years we've been holding folks in Gitmo..permanently
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. The point is the same with Gitmo. It wouldn't function as propaganda or

political leverage if Gitmo's existence was secret.

The whole point of Gitmo is to demonstrate to the
world that the US military is above international
law.

Same for the alleged MIA/POWs. It would serve the
Vietnamese no political purpose to keep secret prisoners.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mustellus Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. There is a reason... and its aways the same.
It was the same for the Inquisition,
It was the same for the Koreans,
It was the same for the Russians,
It _is_ the same for the United States,
and it would be the same for the Vietnamese....

Once you've tortured someone,
Once you've gone too far....
Once you cannot affort to release them,
Once they become too dangerous to set free,
You have to kill them.
Or emprison them until they die.

(For a neat recent cinematic example see "Goya's Ghosts",
where the Inquisition has to hold a young lady for
decades, and to vanish her child by rape... )

We can't empty Gitmo.
Many of those people were lower level fighters,
Or poor slobs of farmers who pissed off their warlord,
who turned them over for the bounty.
But if they didn't hate us before, they do now.
If they wern't Jihadists then....

.... they certainly are now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Dec 26th 2014, 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC