UPDATE: Andrew Sullivan Is Going To Take McCain OUT with CROSSGATE!

[berni_mccoy]

He just updated his blog:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/the-cross-in--1.html

Crucial Part:

And it would not be salient if McCain hadn't deployed the anecdote in his own words - with a misleading image - in a campaign ad, and used it again in front of an evangelical audience Saturday night. And it would not be salient if religious fanatics had not a strangle-hold on the Republican party, seeking doctrinal assurances and echoes of their own type of faith in political candidates.

Here are the perfectly legitimate questions reporters should now, in my opinion, ask McCain:

why did you not mention this transcendent story in 1973? Why, in discussing three Christmases in captivity in Vietnam, was this story - far more powerful than any of the other anecdotes - omitted? How was it possible for the gun guard of May 1969 to be present at Christmas that year when McCain had been transferred to another camp? Is it possible that McCain's memory has faded with time and that he has simply fused his own memories with other stories - as Clinton did with Bosnia sniper fire and as Kerry did in remembering another Christmas he could not have actually witnessed where he said he did?

And why are we not allowed to ask these questions, when they relate to one of the most important questions anyone can ask about a president: the question of integrity? If McCain has fabricated a religious epiphany for political purposes, it is about as deep a betrayal of core integrity as one can imagine, and the latest example of how pernicious the religious domination of political life in America has become.

[Cooley Hurd]

1. I'd respect Sully more if he would maintain some consistency...

...but, nonetheless, this is good.:thumbsup:

[Hamlette]

12. He has consistently TRASHED the GOP since early 2004. Torture did it for him.

I was curious as to why the change and spot checked his archives back to 2003. Abu Ghraib called him up short. It started then. He was horrified that Bush would torture people. He'd been critical before, mostly on gay marriage issues. But Abu Ghraib kicked his butt.

There was some lukewarm stuff after that. Then the GOP convention and the purple heart bandaids. That was like another blow. I haven't seen much good about republicans since then.

Interestingly, there is another GOP turncoat very much worth reading these days. John Cole. He trashes them all on a regular basis and even switched to the dem party (Sully has not, to my knowledge). For Cole the tipping point was Terry Schiavo. Drove him right over the edge that Congress and Bush behaved the way they did. Shocked him.

Both of them are daily reads for me.

Maybe its because my father was a republican. Reagan turned him into a RAVING liberal. We always talked lots of politics in my house and my dad always had an interesting take on things...after he switched. It was like he brought another perspective to the table, more thoughtful in some ways, than those of us who had always been liberal.

Sully and Cole are both like that. I almost always agree with them (Sullivan is too religious for me, but not Cole who I suspect is a godless freak like me) but their take is so refreshing. It's like a safe way to step out of the echo chamber I tend to retreat to when I can't stand it anymore.

[Orsino]

61. He has a long, long way to go to save as many lives as he helped to end.

And a long, long way to go before he looks like more than an opportunist to me.

[Hamlette]

70. I'm surprised you read him

given your animosity toward him.

And I'm sure you're reading him every day because you want to judge him fairly.

If we can't accept that people will ever change their minds and welcome their support when they are right, we will forever be in the minority. Welcome President McCain.

I think a better approach is to try and figure out what made ppl like John Cole and Sullivan change their minds and see if we can change some more. Give them the keys to government? No. But listen and learn.

I honestly don't see how your plan works.

[Orsino]

76. Straw man.

Sullivan earned the animosity of many nations for his unquestioning support for the neocon's war for profit.

I'm wondering how much of his own resources he's pledged to aiding the bereaved, maimed and paupered--or whether he's simply mounting political opposition to the current adventure? He has almost certainly changed his mind to some extent, but he has yet to atone. Until then, his alleged change of heart suspiciously resembles jumping on the anti-Bush bandwagon.

[Hamlette]

93. Get used to saying "President McCain"

We will forever be the minority party if you get your way.

I'm willing to take support where I find it. I have seen nothing in 4 years of reading Sullivan every single day, everything he has written, which supports what you say.

Do you fell the same way about John Cole? Any republican who says "this is not the party I thought it was, I've voting for the other side"? Or just Sullivan?

[Orsino]

94. Straw man.

My ruing the lack of responsibility Andrew Sullivan shows has nothing to do with electing McCain.

[Barack_America]

2. Why did he tell the story in the 3rd person in 2000?

"Many years ago a scared American prisoner of war in Vietnam was tied in torture ropes by his tormentors and left alone in an empty room to suffer through the night. Later in the evening a guard he had never spoken to entered the room and silently loosened the ropes to relieve his suffering. Just before morning, that same guard came back and re-tightened the ropes before his less humanitarian comrades returned. He never said a word to the grateful prisoner, but some months later, on a Christmas morning, as the prisoner stood alone in the prison courtyard, the same good Samaritan walked up to him and stood next to him for a few moments. Then with his sandal, the guard drew a cross in the dirt. Both prisoner and guard both stood wordlessly there for a minute or two, venerating the cross, until the guard rubbed it out and walked away."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9904EFDE1239F93AA15751C0A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

[Bucky]

58. It's way of conveying humbleness, which gets you bonus points with Christians

Good Christians, anyway.

[hisownpetard]

62. When he told it in 2000, it wasn't about him. It supposedly happened to another prisoner.

:nuke:

[progressivebydesign]

69. That story sounds like an urban legend... and I don't believe it happened to McCain.

Why would he tell it in 3rd person ONE year, and now it's his own story? You're right. McCain will do absolutely ANYTHING to get elected... This is not his own story, otherwise, why would it not be in any of his writings or interviews up til now.

I watch Brothers & Sisters on TV (the only show that I watch) The character played by Rob Lowe is running for prez. And a similar thing happened, in which he allowed people to believe things about himself in war, that were not true, and is campaign people went to town with the false story -- because did not correct them. This seems similar. I have no doubt one of McCain's scumbag advisors went to town with this story, even though it looks as if McCain was telling somethng he'd heard about, and now has adopted as his own story.

[babylonsister]

3. I SO agree with Mr. Sullivan, but I doubt any m$m types will go there. nt

[LSparkle]

4. He's often on Tweety's weekend show ... hopefully this week (?).

[npincus]

5. HRC got busted on "Bosnia sniper-fire", McCain's busted on "Hanoi cross"

:rofl:

...or let's hope so!

[Cosmocat]

19. N OT G O I N G T O H A P P E N

Same pathology, McCains worse, given that he has flat lied about his sacred cow POW years ...

But, not a chance, not a chance in heck, the media calls him on it ..

[JackORoses]

37. NOT UP TO YOU

[specterderrida]

67. nor will it be to you.

[Cosmocat]

97. Still waiting ???

Still waiting for McCain to be "taken out" by Crossgate ...

Heck, still waiting for ANYONE in the MSM to even mention it ...

BTW, you are right that it IS NOT UP TO ME ...

Cause if it WERE up to me, it WOULD be reported ...

Proves the point ...

[tbyg52]

51. Ain't that the truth?

If a tree falls in the forest and the corporate media doesn't pay any attention, did it make a sound?

[knixphan]

90. perfect line!

[BlueIdaho]

6. Sullivan

has no love for McCain he's made that clear enough in the past. He also knows how to get air time with the MSM. Nothing would make me happier than to see cross-gate become a week long story. Its just the sort of thing that's likely to let America see McCain go absolutely lunatic bat shit crazy on camera.

[starroute]

7. Kerry probably just confused the Vietnamese and Western New Years

I don't recall the details, but I know I checked it out in 2004, and it was clear he was recalling the incident he described as being around New Years and merely misremembered which New Year.

To describe Kerry's slightly off-target recollection as a fabrication comparable to Snipergate or Crossgate does him a great injustice.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

8. Oh my, oh my

Grumpy ole Grampy McShits may have just holed himself below the water line. I predict that this story is going to attract more and more attention over the next week. Can't imagine KO not getting on this story.

[Disturbed]

9. Will the RWing Fundies be outraged?

"If McCain has fabricated a religious epiphany for political purposes, it is about as deep a betrayal of core integrity as one can imagine."

McLame outright lied to them in order to garner their votes. Will the RWing Fundies simply ignore this?

[Vinca]

13. I think they might be a little more savvy this year, given the last 8 years

of Bush's pandering to them has been just that: pandering. They didn't get what they bargained for and they know it.

[DallasNE]

55. I Must Disagree

The primary thing they are looking for are Supreme Court judges to overturn Roe v. Wade. They got Roberts and Alito. McCain has flatly announced that he is proud Bush named those two and he would name more exactly like them. What they want more than anything is a compliant Court that will use the Bible rather than the Constitution when they make their rulings.

[tomg]

56. About the fundys you are dead right, but

about the wider range of Evangelicals (and there is a large group of progressive Evangelicals - check out Jim Wallis and others - I go to Sojourners frequently and I am an agnostic) this will hammer McCain. In the overall picture, it is the moderate Evangelicals ( many of whom might be anti-choice but who are pro-life in a profound sense - anti-war, anti-capital punishment) who Obama has been reaching out to and any who might have been undecided will be disgusted by McCain ( although I suspect that moderate Evangelicals who were undecided would have finally voted for Obama).

[kevinmc]

10. Good .... 8-) K&R

[Hope And Change]

11. K & R!

[blm]

14. He's wrong about Kerry - During that Christmas-time he did go into Cambodia ferrying CIA

personnel. Gee - wonder WHY the GOP would deny that occurred? Oh yeah - cuz Nixon TOLD them they were NOT going into Cambodia. Funny how the Nixon tapes prove otherwise, but corpmedia won't talk about that.

[chill_wind]

31. Right on! n/t

[WinkyDink]

15. I'd like it better without the references to Democrats. Can't ONE Republican transgression be

discussed on its own?

[Mz Pip]

16. I wish it could be that easy

Somehow I think McCain will be given a pass on this just like he is on everything else.

[Bok_Tukalo]

17. Fellow POW claims McCain told the story contemporaneously

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OGZiOGI3OTQ3YWMxYzFhM2UyYTk3NzJiYTM4MGNiY2U=

[Ashy Larry]

20. You mean a partisan republican lobbyist backs McCain's story?

I'm shocked.

Here's Byron's source:

Orson Swindle (Born March 8, 1937), a decorated Vietnam War POW, was a Commissioner of the Federal Trade Commission of the United States from December 18, 1997 to June 30, 2005. He had previously served as Assistant Secretary of Commerce during the Reagan Administration.

He previously served as State Director for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. In 1994 and in 1996 he was a Republican candidate for Congress in Hawaii's 1st Congressional District. In 1996 he held the incumbent, Democrat Neil Abercrombie, to 50% of the vote.

Swindle is a Senior Policy Advisor at the lobbying firm of Hunton & Williams in Washington, DC.<2> His specific charge is within the firm’s Center for Information Policy Leadership, which was founded to “develop innovative, pragmatic approaches to privacy and information security issues from a business-process perspective while respecting the privacy interests of individuals.” Their clients include American Express, Eli Lilly, GE, Microsoft, and Wal-Mart.

Swindle is also on the board of Citizens Against Government Waste (CAGW), an independent political advocacy group that seeks to eliminate waste, mismanagement, and inefficiency in the federal government. Throughout its history, CAGW has been accused of fronting lobbying efforts of corporations to give them the appearance of "grassroots" support.<3> In part, this is because CAGW has accepted donations from Phillip Morris, the Olin Foundation, the Bradley Foundation, Microsoft, Merrill-Lynch, and Exxon-Mobil. CAGW also has ties to convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff.<4> While CAGW describes itself as non-partisan, it has endorsed John McCain<5> for president and donated $11,000 to his campaign or groups controlled by him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Swindle

[SoxFan]

26. Swindle's name speaks volumes

He was a major player in Ross Perot's political circle. If that tells you how grounded a guy is, then McCain really needs a new apologist.

[samdogmom]

75. Another "Lying Liar"!

Do these "Christians" learn anything sitting in the pews Sunday after Sunday????

I am not religious...but I know that lying is not right! How come the right-wing wackos never learned this lesson?

[nsd]

21. Swindle: "I vaguely recall that story being told, among other stories."

Wow, that is super-convincing!

Especially coming from the mouth of a Republican lobbyist. Those guys never lie ... do they?

[JackORoses]

38. fellow POW has been debunked. he is quoted previously saying McCain never discussed Religion

he is just a smokescreen

[McCamy Taylor]

18. This story is meant to distract us from "McCain Cheated" I'm not gonna talk about McCain's POW

experiences any more than I have to. Not for any reason.

I am willing to say McCain Cheated a 1000 times.

[berni_mccoy]

22. Good for you. You handle things your way. I'll handle things my way.

And one of these stories will stick.

[JackORoses]

39. quit trying to force your limited perspective on people

if you want to ignore this, have at it.

the rest of us can recognize this for the gigantic mistake that it was.

[1Hippiechick]

87. I think she's saying that it stops us from getting to the bottom line: MCCAIN CHEATED! n/t

[quiet.american]

23. It's so obvious McCain needed a Shrub-like "walking with Billy Graham" froth to sell to "the base."

I often wonder if evangelicals in general get frustrated with being pegged as gullible rubes who'll believe anything you tell them, as long as it sounds like what they want to hear.

Glad to see Sullivan tearing into this.

[Hugabear]

24. How fucking DARE you question McCain - don't you know he was a POW?

Being a former POW is an excuse to leave your disfigured wife.

Being a former POW is an excuse to flat out lie.

Hell, McCain is allowed to do whatever he fucking wants, because he was a POW.

Do you hate America or something? :sarcasm:

[kristyt]

25. THIS IS A SETUP--A HONEYPOT.....run from this story

Ultimately there is no way to really debunk this story. And by talking about it you just reinforce that he's Christian and was a POW.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kristyt]

30. Ok Einstein, Tell Me How this Gets Debunked

You're talking about something that happened in Vietnam. Look at how many people ended up believing the Swift-boaters...and there were multiple witnesses, documentation and commendations.

This is a story. It's about his time as a POW and reinforces he's Christian.

Is it Bullshit? Probably. But so what, you can't disprove it unless you have him on tape saying he's going tell a whopper.

So laugh all you want, my cats love to run around all happy after they use the litter box--wonder how your post brought that comparison to mind?

[csziggy]

32. McCain took that story from Solzhenitsyn

McCain's Sniper-Gate: Lifted the 'Cross In the Sand' story from Alexander Solzhenitsyn.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6652270

And he never mentioned in his detailed report of his POW days in 1973:

No "cross in the sand" for McCain in 1973 Story unlikely to be true
by Calouste
Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:15:30 PM PDT

Shortly after John McCain came back from Vietname in 1973, he wrote a detailed 12,000 word report of his experiences that was published in US News and World Report.

Even though McCain goes into a lot of detail in that story and mentions religion a few times, there is no mention of the cross in the sand story, even though it would have fitted in well with the whole narrative. There are numerous mentions of Vietnamese guards in the reports, mostly bad ones but also good ones, but there is no indication at all that any of them would have been Christian, although " lot of them were homosexual".
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/17/15300/5629/128/569386

Is it better if he plagarizes or makes it up?

[Spiffarino]

34. Not bullshit...P L A G I A R I S M

Read McSame's words at the Megachurch forum. He quotes Solzhenitsyn word for word.

[JackORoses]

41. McCain said the same guard who loosened his ropes drew the cross.

Only problem is he was in transferred camps in the intervening time between 'events'.

It couldn't have been the same guard. The cable-knit sweater begins to unravel...

[JackORoses]

40. are all 79 posts this concerning?

[Major Hogwash]

53. Hahahahaha!

Oh Magoo, you've done it again!

I can just hear McCain's advisors now, "what the hell is wrong with you, John?"

"Well, my friends, this was a story that I've wanted to tell for a long time."

"Cut the 'my friends' crap out here, John, you're not at one of your controlled town meetings. What was the big idea of stealing his story about the cross?"

"Well, it's a good story, it's got a cross in it, and I like to tell that story often."

"John! You've never told that story before!"

"Well, that's because I was never the nominee before. Have I told you the one about the dolphin I used to swim with while I was in Vietnam? His name was Doofus, I called him Doofus the Dolphin, and we used to go to the beach every weekend."

"John? You're hallucinating again."

"We need to attack Russia, and as the President of the United States, I am ordering Joe Lieberman to go to Russia and call them names. I am also ordering some pizza."

LoL

[liberalcanuck]

92. Hilarious! n/t

[SoxFan]

27. Kick

[Colobo]

29. Go Andrew, Go!

[AZBlue]

33. So? This is nowhere but the liberal blogosphere. What good will that do us?

[Spiffarino]

35. Exactly

We're hollering in an empty room. The MSM will not run with anything that hurts their Anointed Prince.

[JackORoses]

43. the room's not empty, and the walls have ears

keep talking...

[JackORoses]

42. I guess we should just forget it then, huh? Might as well just declare McCain King while were at it

[AZBlue]

82. I'm not forgetting it. I write the media constantly, on this and other subjects.

How about you?

[Life Long Dem]

44. The media is trying to sweep this under the rug.

It's not the first time.

[JackORoses]

45. which is exactly why we shall keep discussing it

the more McCain and his campaign squeal, the harder it will be for the MSM to avoid it.

[AZBlue]

83. No, we should make them discuss it.

We're "preaching to the choir" here.

[kristopher]

65. It made it on air at the Cafferty file yesterday; but elicited no comment. nt

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kire]

46. Most Christians don't watch as much HBO as McCain does...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=210x23256

[Joe Chi Minh]

47. What I don't get is this entitlement business, which seems to have taken over

the ethos of your country's government; the emergence and indeed primacy of aspirants with political and financial clout, but without the intellectual capacity of any local high-school teacher. I mean, it's crazy! And yet, here we are, discussing other seeming deficiencies of McCain's character, as if his intellectual shortcomings were a minor, even negligible consideration.

I know you have no choice in the matter, or scant choice, as a people, but it is really, really troubling, because it reflects a fathomless corruption and a leonine contract with the people: "You do as you're told and shut up!"

All over the world, people from the ruling class are shoe-horned into presidencies and premierships, but very few are chosen without the requirement of some intellectual aptitude. I can remember in the sixties, there was a Premier of a South-East Asian country who had taken, I think, fourteen years to obtain a law degree, but I can't help thinking that no amount of time would be sufficient for McCain or Bush and yet they aspire to govern what was until recently the ultimate, if not only, superpower.

You have issues with the characters of both - since they are Neocons, it would be strange to say the least, if you didn't - but that doesn't bear at all on the issue of their worldly wisdom, what we are pleased to call "intelligence". That is the issue I am addressing here, as being such a primordial requirement that it should be a paramount concern.

There was a time when I thought that Mother Theresa or Padre Pio would have made the best national leaders, but I see clearly now that they could not focus to the necessary degree on the worldly issues facing their country and the world at large, and subordinates not lacking in that worldly focus and the correlative wisdom would effectively run the government. (I think I've just answered my own question. It's an honorary award. Hillary is obviously over-qualified)). Jesuit or Dominican priests, who often combine both capacities to a high degree...that's another matter.

During confession, I was asked by an elderly Jesuit priest what I "did" on the Internet, and I told him I mostly went to an American political forum called, Democratic Underground. I then, or soon after, asked him, "Are you aware that the last few American elections were massively fraudulent?" To which he nodded assent. But, because he seemed a little more conservative in his outook and interests, I was surprised and repeated the question. But, no, he was well aware of it.

[FirstLight]

66. ...if I could rec a post!

:bravo:

I agree, that these men (bush, Mccain) did very little to aspire to the power they are reaching towards, either morally or intellectually. The money and power and family ties were all they needed to get into that club.
It is a sad state when the intelligent chioce (obama) is marginalized for such things as race or mythical ties to the Muslim religion.

It's all a horse & pony show, to "look" like a real election but in efect it is already stolen and the revolt in the streets that will come as a result will be blamed on race, poverty, etc... the reality of the situation will be hidden my the propaganda of entertainmment news.

[Joe Chi Minh]

85. The legendary noise-machine of Big Brother.

[oasis]

48. kick

[symbolman]

49. Nothing would be sweeter than to let McCain

SwiftBoat HIMSELF :)

He's Crazy I hope you know.. Damaged Goods. :)

What's worse is that no one talks about how Damn CREEPY the guy is.. Creepy is the only word I can think of that describes him best.. Other than "Wrinkly White-Haired Dude"... :)

[Enrique]

50. we can PROVE McCain's lack of integrity without this silly non-scandal

there are plenty of examples of McCain blatantly lying about immediate issues, that McCain simply cannot explain.

This cross story is so easy for McCain to answer in so many ways, that he's probably praying that someone in Obama's camp brings it up. McCain would easily answer, and then go on to make the Obama camp look really small for going there.

[JackORoses]

78. by doing this, McAnus has damaged his single greatest asset

He has utterly fucked himself.

[Major Hogwash]

52. Right-wing, hard core Republicans are not going to like this coming from McCain.

It's one thing for him to claim he is a POW and "a hero", but for him to start making up lies about what happened to him while he was in captivity, it is not going to play well with true conservative Republicans.

They were talking about this all day yesterday on the radio here and McCain is losing support here that he never had.
He'll never get it, at this rate, either.
Unless he picks Romney as his veep, McCain is going to lose the entire West.

[Hubert Flottz]

54. He should have remembered that "Cross" when he doublecrossed

his first wife.

[Bucky]

57. of course our argument falls apart if it turns out the NVA prison guard read Solzenitzen too

[hisownpetard]

63. Better yet, maybe it WAS Solzhenitsyn.

[berni_mccoy]

64. IF They Can Produce a Guard that said he made the cross in the dirt, then case closed.

But they aren't doing that... why?

[L. Coyote]

72. If the guard steps forwaed and says, "Liar."

Has anyone gone to Vietnam to talk to the Vietnamese about John McCain?

[saltpoint]

59. Ok credit where it's due. I'd prefer A.S. not hang out all that

often with so many conservative folks & sources, but of late he's been true and blue for Obama.

Fair enough.

[zulchzulu]

60. A 527 or two will take McCone to task on this in October

The best way to deploy the questions are later in the campaign where the political wound will be mortal. Wait for it...

[wurzel]

68. Were there any "crosses" by guards at Abu Ghraib and GITMO?

Or crescents if you prefer. I just wondered.

[Stoic]

71. Andrew Sullivan couldn't take himself out to lunch.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

[JackORoses]

79. doesn't change the fact that McAnus lied and has been caught

[pecwae]

86. "Andrew Sullivan couldn't take himself out to lunch"

:rofl: even if it is true.

[The Family Guy]

73. How is he a "hero" anyway.

Being a POW does not make you a hero. So he lived through it, what was the alternative? Being a POW just means that he was a bad pilot and never listened much during the class on how to escape and evade.

So he is a hero for screwing up, but John Kerry is a coward for being wounded in battle three times, and then coming home and standing up against the war?

Talking with the guards is against the rules, as was mentioned earlier....that makes McBush nothing more than a treasonous screw up. Hell, he was stupid enough to volunteer to go into the navy in the first place......of course, he did get that free education......but free education for others would be something he would be against, now wouldn't it?

Hm, the contradictions abound.

[alfredo]

74. Start raising hell with the media asking why are they protecting McCain.

[psychmommy]

77. the fact that we have repubs on here trying to say it won't

have legs, means it already as legs. oh yes, i am loving cross gate.

[JackORoses]

80. yes sirree bob!

[eleny]

81. It's getting legs despite their poo-pooing the idea

As usual, it starts on the net, then liberal radio picks it up, then it's on Countdown. I'm surprised Sullivan is so fast to catch on. Maybe because it's so obvious McCain is lying. Again. Or maybe Sullivan is trying to beat Keith to the story. :D

:hi:

[Naturyl]

84. This is not going to "take McCain out."

At best it might cost him a couple of points, which is better than nothing. But ultimately, the charges are un-provable, which means those determined to believe can do so without interruption.

[berni_mccoy]

89. Take a look at the online news and how the McCain campaign has responded.

It's already damaged his credibility.

[proud progressive]

88. at-a-boy, andy

call me naive but i have always liked this guy. i like his openness, his intellect, and his candor. and he is right-on.
yes, mccain served his country. yes, he was raised in a military family. yes, he CHOOSE to live his life in the military. yes, he got shot down and was tortured for five years.
but what the fuck does any of that have to do with qualifying for the biggest job in the world?!
this guy is a liar, a cheater, a hot-head, and not too bright.
by the way, does torture and invading and almost destroying a sovereign country based on lies sound familiar?
:rant:

[mountainvue]

91. I still think he posts here. n/t

[JackORoses]

95. get up, stand up!

[Pryderi]

96. BIDEN WAS FORCED OUT OF THE RACE IN '88 FOR PLAGIARIZING NEIL KINNOCK, AND SO SHOULD MCCAIN!