Why Clinton-bashing and trying to turn DU into an echo chamber are mistakes (reposted after requests

[highplainsdem]

This was originally a reply in the topic asking people to stop insinuating that DUers who supported Clinton in the primaries are PUMAs. That topic is at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6638762

and I was glad to see it posted. The OP had asked one question in particular that I wanted to respond to, and I've been asked by people replying there to repost my comments as an OP.

This is what I'd posted there:


________________________________________


Thanks for posting this.

As for this question you asked:

How many more good DUers do you want to chase away from DU?

I believe that at least some of the people bashing DUers who'd supported Clinton in the primaries hoped to drive ALL of them away. And had succeeded in driving away or silencing most of them, since with the primaries showing Clinton and Obama getting approximately the same number of votes, here it seems that people who supported Clinton are outnumbered 20 to 1, or maybe much more than that.

This was bad for DU for three reasons:

1) Living in an echo chamber where you hear only opinions echoing your own leaves you totally unprepared for dealing with the world outside that echo chamber. I couldn't begin to count the times I've seen DUers post that they simply can't believe the polls showing the race at all close, even when the polling organizations are largely in agreement.

2) Political forums that become echo chambers tend to promote increasingly extreme views not only of those politicians who are favorites, but of those who are disliked or even hated -- and in this case the Clinton-hating fed on itself, like some toxic bacterial growth, until more and more ridiculous statments about the Clintons started to seem "reasonable" just because they weren't too much more bizarre than some other comments posted. So we had DUers sounding like freepers as they parroted RW talking points about the Clintons.

3) This is not a private forum for Clinton-haters. It's a public forum that many casual readers will take to be pretty representative of the Democratic Party, and in this case, with the Obama supporters here, of the Obama campaign. And in that way the Clinton-hating messages here seem to provide confirmation of the PUMA argument that Clinton was treated badly by the party and the Obama campaign. I realize people shouldn't blame Obama for messages posted by his sillier supporters. But we have people here blaming Clinton for the PUMAs. And while the PUMA sites at least are obviously not meant to be general Democratic sites, this forum is supposed to be, and it's very damaging to party unity -- at a time when we need it -- to have so very many topics and replies here bashing the Clintons in such extreme ways.



______________________________


As one of the people replying to my post in that other topic said:


Look at GDP today: even now, with Obama nd Clinton declaring unity, with Obama saying he embraces and trusts Hillary, some posters are STILL posting divisive garbage. They don't want peace or unity or whatever. They just want to fight. That's it.


LostinVA is right.

And the fighting HAS to stop if we're going to have unity. With Obama and Clinton able to understand that, we should be following their lead.

As Skinner reminded us in the topic pinned to the top of GDP, there are DU rules against "highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents." There's some allowance for OTT rhetoric during the primaries, but the primaries are over, and it is long past time for the Clinton-bashing here to stop.

It should have stopped when the primaries ended, but it didn't.

It really should have stopped after the Obama/Clinton unity appearance in Unity NH, but it didn't.

It's still going on after yesterday's joint statement from Obama and Clinton.

I'm beginning to think that without more action by the admins and mods, the Clinton-bashing will be continuing here even after the convention, even if she's on the ticket.

The relentless attempts by some misguided DUers to create more division are hurting the party, and they have to stop. Now.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

3. Thank you for making this an OP- We must have Unity

We need to follow the lead of Pres. Nominee Sen. Obama and Sen. Clinton.

[highplainsdem]

32. You're welcome, and I agree that we need to follow Obama and Clinton's lead.

We have an election to win, and a lot of Republican mistakes to undo.

[SIMPLYB1980]

4. K&R. Warn them then cook a pizza.

[Lisa0825]

5. Clinton, Clinton, Clinton....

It is still ALL ABOUT HER. Now the convention is all about her too, instead of being primarily about our nominee. I am tired of all the posts about Clinton, whether they are from her supporters or Obama's. Can we PLEASE focus on Obama and McCain?

[kiva]

6. Thanks, highplainsdem, for posting this as an OP.

The echo chamber effect has become magnified as of late, to the detriment of DU. The name of this site is Democratic Underground. It isn't Obama Underground or Clinton Underground, and presumably those who join and post support/are Democrats. That doesn't mean we can't disagree with our Democratic candidates and elected officials, but it does mean we should all be working toward getting our people elected. Instead we have threads that glorify Republicans past and present (Powell, Hagel, Eisenhower) and viciously attack other Democrats. This isn't unity, it's playground bullying.

[highplainsdem]

41. You're welcome, kiva! And you're right about the bullying -- it's really hurt DU.

[peace13]

7. Please repost the kind words that you sent my way when Kucinich was eliminated.

No I mean really! When the newspapers decided to not let the man debate I am guessing that you called them and pleaded. When he was cut from the picture after a debate I am sure that you wrote here at DU to try and bolster the Kucinich fans. I think that you are the misguided DUer that is trying to create and sustain division here. Really as beautifully put in the movie As Good As it Gets....."Go sell crazy somewhere else we are all full up here."

I have fallen by answering you in this manner. As Dalai Lama 13 said, 'Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible.' I am sorry to answer you with unkind words but please give us a rest out here. Gloat and revile all you want in your own private way but please give us a rest.

[elocs]

8. Isn't free speech messy, especially when you hear or read things you don't like.

We are supposed to all be Democrats here--you know, the ones who actually believe in free speech, but we see both sides telling the other to STFU. Perhaps Skinner could rule DU with an iron fist and come up with a detailed list of exactly what can and cannot be said and purge all who violate the rules. That way we could become a cozy, same-think, mutual admiration society here at DU.

[peace13]

10. Can't wait until we can all back the Dem candidate together.

When we are all on the same page together, that my friend will be a beautiful day! Peace, Kim

[kiva]

11. Ummm, did you read the OP?

The reference to "echo chamber"? Your fear that "we could become a cozy, same-think, mutual admiration society" is exactly what is happening, as the OP mentions--many voices have been silenced here, some deservedly so, others not. I don't worry that we'll ever become a mutual admiration society here, but think that eviscerating other Democrats is foolish and unnecessary.

[QC]

34. You expect people to read posts first and *then* reply to them?

Nice idea, but it'll never catch on. ;-)

It is far more important to post quickly than intelligently, it seems.

[elocs]

38. Umm, yes I did. I am saying that people will disagree, sometimes nastily and unfairly.

Exactly how are voices here at DU silenced except by Skinner or the mods? I've never seen DU as any kind of an echo chamber, but one where there are many people with many different opinions. That does not mean that opinions, such as those about Clinton, have to divide up 50/50. That does not mean that every Democrat gets fair and equal treatment. How exactly do we go about silencing the voices of those who do not like Clinton because not everybody likes Clinton or is required to like Clinton? I actually think that Senator Clinton has a much thicker skin than a good deal of her supporters and she has a better grasp of what the real situation is. I am sure she realizes that if she does not give it her all in supporting and campaigning for Obama and he loses, then she can kiss 2012 goodbye because any enmity that Clinton supporters feel now would be a walk in the park compared to what those Obama supporters would feel if they thought Clinton only half heartedly campaigned for Obama and he lost.

Oh, and eviscerating Democrats is a popular pastime here at DU, especially our Democratic leadership, of whom many have a negative opinion and are not shy about expressing it. Clinton may not be at the top of the evisceration list, but she is hardly alone.

[Spazito]

9. I was never a fan of the typical high school cheerleader clique

and I still find them insufferable and superficial, go figure.

[Faygo Kid]

12. OK, fair enough. Does this mean Clinton supporters will quit demanding apologies?

One of the most extraordinarily annoying things during the primaries and continuing now is the penchant for demanding apologies by Hillary's backers whenever their noses are out of joint.

I don't recall Obama supporters constantly demanding apologies each time our sensibilities are offended. I have no problem with what you are asking. Can we also get a moratorium on the endless demands for apologies by Hillary's supporters? Some of us feel there is nothing we need apologize for. And even if we did, the barrage of apology demands is just plain stupid and annoying.

[paulk]

13. couldn't agree more - thanks for the repost

although I'm sure the usual crew will turn this into another flame war and get it locked...

-------

ps - I think some of those DUers aren't misguided at all - they know exactly what they're doing and why.

[Occam Bandage]

14. DU? An echo-chamber? I can't believe such a thing might come to pass!

:rofl:

[ProSense]

15. I think we can all agree, although the joint statement didn't state this explicitly, that

Hillary lost!

That's true even outside DU, the so-called echo chamber.

[JoFerret]

18. But - WE didn't

and WE won't if we can remain civil.

[ProSense]

21. You don't agree? n/t

[JoFerret]

45. I think you

should eat your nice steamed nettles.

Don't you know there's a war on?

[PresidentObama]

25. If a sore winner is possible, then well...you fit the label well.

[ProSense]

43. But it isn't possible is it?

Time for you to get over it: Hillary lost!

[Lilith Velkor]

50. You are living proof that it is.

Obama won. Get over it!

[pecwae]

53. Too bad the Yahoo boards

aren't still around. This post would have fitted perfectly there.

[Lucky 13]

16. So if she does something I feel is wrong, you want me to shut up about it?

Sorry, no sale. No elected official is immune from criticism. Not W. Not Lieberman. Not Clinton. Nobody.

Look, I don't do OPs about Clinton. If I had my way she would leave the country on extended vacation not to reappear until sometime after Obama has taken office. That way I wouldn't ever have to talk about her again.

But when other people post about Clinton, I AM going to respond.

I feel like she keeps shoving herself down our throats and then her supporters get angry if we complain about it.

We wouldn't be talking about her STILL if she and her supporters didn't give us NEW material to work with. If she behaved like any of the other losing candidates and focused on our nominee instead of herself, I'd feel much differently about her.

But with Hillary... it's all about Hillary. Primetime speaking spots for her, Bill and Chelsea? That's a bit much, but whatever... I said nothing negative about it. Producing her own tribute to herself? Nauseatingly narcissistic. Putting her name in for a roll-call vote? That is divisive and self-centered.

YES they released a joint statement about it, but I believe Barack had no choice. Unless he wants to take on PUMA and the fringe nutbags threatening to disrupt the convention, he had to acquiesce.


What this comes down to is simply a difference of opinion. You and I clearly have a difference of opinion as to how we view her actions. You think they're fine. I think they're selfish and destructive to our nominee. And as long as I believe she is acting as a destructive, selfish force within the party, I'm going to respond to OP's posted about her. It's is our right and responsibility to police our elected officials. To speak up when we think what they are doing is WRONG. And I believe she is very very very wrong about this.

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[iconicgnom]

19. Thanks for keeping this going.

[polmaven]

20. Right on, my friend!

The Clinton bashing has gone on here for as long as I have been a member, but NOTHING as vile as this has been.

You're 100% right. It should have stopped with Senator Clinton's concession, but at the very latest on June 11, when GD-P was archived.

It doesn't appear it will stop, or be stopped any time soon. The relative handful of true hate mongers will continue to bash President and Senator Clinton for eternity, and will continue to call those of us who supported her during the primaries all manner of nasty names, in an attempt to chase us away from DU. They will tolerate no Hillary avatars whatsoever on "their" board.

Anyone that remains here is supporting Senator Obama for president, but that does NOT matter.

Yes, LostinVa is absolutely right. I have stated before that the acronym PUMA could not apply more to the loudest of those Hillary Haters here. They have NO interest in party unity...only in their own need to wallow in hate. That sometimes appears to be more important to them than does winning this election.

Here's to a well stated post. :toast: As we aging hippies used to say "Keep on keepin' on".

[bvar22]

22. Does anyone here really believe....

...that the rabid Hillary acolytes are going to quietly join ranks with the supporters of the Democratic nominee after Hillary loses the Roll Call vote at the convention?

Those who need "catharsis" or "closure" should go to a therapist or attend a 12-Step Group...NOT the Democratic Convention. The Democratic Convention is ALL about getting Obama elected in November. Anything that is NOT focused on that single goal is a distraction that helps McCain in November.

Hillary LOST the Democratic Primary. She does NOT have any "supporters" at the Democratic Convention. There will be ONLY Obama supporters or Republican enablers at the Democratic Convention.

WORD!

[polmaven]

23. You have not even TRIED

to understand the OP, have you?

[bvar22]

37. I understand THIS:

It is critically important that the Democratic nominee be elected by as wide a margin as possible in November. Anything that diverts attention from that goal is counter productive.

What is wrong with you people that you cannot see this?
STOP the chaos, whining, divisiveness, and distraction; it is NOT helping.

[polmaven]

40. The Democratic Convention, however,

is not, the last I knew, being held at DU.....Has that changed? :shrug:

[LostinVA]

24. Oh brother -- you are too much

:rofl:

[MrCoffee]

28. Aren't you the cutest thing?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Agreed!

:toast:

[peace13]

48. I feel your pain but...

your words are wasted here. The last two sentences are the best. Peace, Kim

[PresidentObama]

26. You're right DU isn't an Clinton hate forum. Doesn't stop those who are trying to turn it into one

And I challenge all those who use the GDP forum to attack, smear and lie about the Clintons--what does these primary rehash threads you launch on a daily basis have to do with McCain or Obama, or the race we're trying to win? How is this helping Obama? How is this hurting McCain?

Your obsession with the Clintons will do NOTHING to help Obama, or hurt McCain.

And most importantly, it's pathetic.

[MrCoffee]

27. Hear Hear!

:thumbsup:

[LostinVA]

29. Good post!

[LisaM]

39. Well stated

and that fact is that Hillary does represent close to half of all the people who voted in the primaries. The convention is a culmination of the primaries, so the fact that we cheer her historic run as we move forward with a nominee should not bother anyone.

[LisaM]

30. Thank you for re-posting. n/t

[highplainsdem]

51. You're welcome, Lisa!

[Supersedeas]

31. why is it so important to distinguish Clinton supporters from PUMAS -- what is it about PUMAS?

[merh]

33. Who was driven away?

If you are talking about folks that were banned then you seem to have missed out on the facts. The banned folks did things that violated the rules. No one made them break the rules.

I've come close to posting things that were wrong. I have deleted them and taken breaks when my self-deletions became all of my efforts.

The nastiness is on both sides and there are no "victims" - there are only those that want to blame the bad behavior (on both sides) on others and not take responsibility for their actions.

The "ignore" and "ignore thread" features were provided for a reason. If posts and threads bother you, ignore them on your own (stay out of them) and/or use the features the forum offers.

[Scout]

44. people don't have to have been banned to have been driven away. fucking duh. n/

[merh]

46. See the subject line of my post.

"Who was driven away?"

Do you have an answer or is snark all you are about?

Duh - if you can't be nice put me on ignore, don't respond to me.

[Forkboy]

47. Then that decision was theirs, not someone else's.

These people have freewill. If they believe that DU is too harsh on them then they can leave, but let's be clear, that decision is theirs and theirs alone. If they're being driven away they themselves are behind the wheel. These people should take responsibility for their own decisions and stop trying to fob the blame off on others.

The endless victimization from some this year is among the worst shit I've ever seen from the Democrats in a campaign season. I've seen people upset at every election, but this is beyond neurotic.

[AdHocSolver]

36. The best "alpha male" has the best chance to win. Hillary is still vying to be top alpha male.

In studying wolf packs, observers have learned that the leader is always the alpha male. The alpha male need not be the strongest or the smartest wolf in the pack. It is always the most aggressive wolf in the pack. This wolf never backs down. It never concedes defeat. It maintains leadership by intimidating all the other wolves until it comes up against another alpha male who succeeds in driving it away from the pack.

In accommodating Hillary supporters who won't acknowledge that the majority of the people, both Democrats and other Americans, prefer Obama, the Obama camp may be making a serious tactical error. Hillary, by her half-hearted support, and her fuzzy words about McCain, sends the message that she is still looking to grab the nomination. Even if she doesn't succeed, she weakens Obama's chances in the general election by making Obama look weak within his own party. This is not good for the general election.

Running on a platform of change, Obama needs congressional support to enable his policies. If Hillary supporters act as a fifth column within the party, that support will not be forthcoming. The reason the Republicans win elections is because they have party discipline and can "get things done". The fact that the things the Republicans do best is get us into unnecessary wars, and have destroyed or sold off the economic infrastructure of America, is less important than the fact that they "get things done".

Bill Clinton's presidency is overrated as being good for the people. He only won because Perot took away a large chunk of votes from Daddy Bush. Clinton pushed through NAFTA, which cost American jobs, and he helped repeal the Glass-Steagall Act which would have prevented the housing market meltdown we are now facing. Overall, Bill Clinton was not that good for Americans.

Hillary and Bill have earned the hostility that they are getting by many on DU. Implying McCain would make a better C-i-C than Obama (totally preposterous), saying things like "to her knowledge", Obama is not a Muslim, and Bill's refusing to say unequivocally that Obama is ready to be president are all indicative of a subtle attempt at sabotage.

If Hillary supporters want to stop the antagonism of the rest of the Democratic party against Hillary (and Bill), then send Hillary a message to stop the backstabbing tactics. You could point out to her that, if Obama doesn't win against an obvious loser like McCain, she will get a lot of the blame. Then she can say goodbye to her political career. She couldn't win a dogcatcher job in Podunk.

[Scout]

42. "if Obama doesn't win against an obvious loser like McCain"

then he doesn't deserve to be our candidate.

I trust Obama, why don't you? I think he WILL win against McCain.

[pecwae]

52. Damn Clinton presidency.

The very worst! He sucked and I was reduced to dirt farming for those eight years.

[KoKo]

49. I was always a Gore First, Kucinich Second Supporter for '08...but the Hillary Bashing

has been so OTT and the OBAMA BLINDERS so GLARING and posters supporting both kind of turned me off. Didn't get involed much in the crap that went on. Just observed. Gotta say that Obama supporters on DU are enough to turn many folks off even those of us who have been involved in politics since way back.

The PUMA stuff was so OTT...that I finally had to Google what "PUMA" meant because (first, I don't deal with acronyms...just a fetish I have) and that it was used in such a derogatory way, I assumed it was just some kind of RW Trolls here trying to "stir up mischief." I wouldn't be surprised to find out if "PUMA" was jointly coordinated between Michelle Malkin and Annie Coulter (with Limpballs thrown in) to disrupt Dem Voters.

I think Bill and Hillary feel they deserve the same chance to right their wrongs as Chimpy got to right his Father's Wrongs (in the NeoCons eyes) and so that they are politicians who saw Chimp destroy our economy and the RW who took advantage of Bill's dreadful behavior take over our media (after Bill was convinced to give the media away to Corporations along with our Manufacturing)...and so they feel they DESERVE A CHANCE TO HAVE A COME BACK...to do BETTER THIS TIME! I don't think they deserve it...but then again...Bill and Hillary got TWO TERMS when no other Dem since FDR has been able to achieve that. In "Politico World" that means a damned lot...and demands some respect!

I get sick of the "Obama the Rock Star vs. Hillary the Deamon" ravings. And, most of America doesn't want to hear that stuff. They are "dumbed down by M$M and belittled by their Congress and the Courts." Most Americans have NO VOICE in America today. They don't give a shit about Dem Infighting...but they notice when the Democrats CAVE... And Obama is caving....just like Kerry/Edwards caved and the rest of them before "Clinton Charm" managed to worm his way in. We did get "two terms of Charm" but...times have changed big times since "CHARM" will win an election. If Obama and his handlers are thinking his "charm, beautiful wife and children" will carry him on this alone...he will learn like the rest of our Dems who were defeated were... Don't listen to what "THEY TELL YOU."

Just saying...

[Indenturedebtor]

54. There's nothing wrong with criticising someone who did wrong

If people were running around saying that she was a child molester or something I'd agree with you. But calling her on what she did isn't wrong. Sorry. I was an Edwards supporter... he cheated on his wife during the campaign? Done with him now. I won't get mad at anyone who insults him either.

[davidpdx]

55. Part of the problem is the gross over reaction on the part of those

former Clinton supporters of ANY criticism of the Clintons. I've openly said I hope Obama doesn't pick her and said exactly why. So please tell me why I'm a Clinton hater?

I also think the one track mind set of you and others who have repeated the "Obama can only win with Clinton on the ticket" falls under the definition of an echo chamber as well.

Yes, I have no doubt that some people say things that are out of line. I've also seen former Clinton supporters repeat some of the same talking points about Obama from the primary with no consequence for doing so (the cultist, Obama worshipers comments come to mind).

So if this is about unity, maybe both sides need to get off their high horse including yourself.

[SeaLyons]

56. K&R

for unity...

[kiva]

57. Kick n/t