The FL and MI primaries are still playing out. Accusation of unfair primary continues.

[madfloridian]

Among the angriest of the Clinton supporters, that is. Those of us who express concern recognize what some of you do not...that they do NOT believe the primaries were fair. They blame Barack Obama and Howard Dean for skewing the primary vote. There is no doubt of that belief, it is all over their websites with the angry looking cat.

The word is out here at DU to just post positive stuff. That would be nice. But why can't we at least stand up for someone who has worked his butt off for the party for 4 years as chair...and gets stalked and condemned in ads. He can not effectively defend himself right now.

I don't see how a group of people could call a primary result unfair if rules were followed scrupulously. And they were. Governor Dean and the Rules Committee went strictly by the rules that were made before the primaries began.

The worst part is that during the primaries the former president expressed doubt that the outcome was fair. Bill Clinton blamed Howard Dean and Obama even though they stuck to the rules as to FL and MI delegates. This is not supposition. I have it in his own words. Today at another site someone surprised me when they said the delegates were forced to vote for Obama. I am still stunned at the vitriol. Yet those words were also said by Bill Clinton.

Here is why I worry, and yes, I will quote the man I respected as a two-term president. I do it because I am worried that Howard Dean and Barack Obama are doing everything they can to be nice, and it is never enough. Never.

From May this year. A very bitter statement.

Today, at the first of five campaign events in Kentucky, just days ahead of the May 20 primary here, the former president said the lack of attention to the unseated Michigan and Florida delegates was proof that the party and the political pundits are trying to force Democrats to get in line behind Obama.

....."What did the Democratic National Committee do? They obliterated them. Who cares if you wanted to get up there with these other states because you've been broken by this economic policy of the current administration. We're gonna show you who's boss. We are obliterating you from the face of the earth and pretending that your voters did not vote. You just have to know, that is the position of your national party. Nobody quarrels with their right to discipline them. They made a decision they did not have to make. And do you seriously believe, if the votes had been the other way, that they would have made the same decision?" Clinton asked a crowd in Owensboro.
Accusations toward the DNC

He just in effect said that Dean played favorites. Outrageous. Those same words are being echoed now in the groups like the PUMA alliance and the Denver Groups. They may be few in number, but they get great media access.

Another time in May he accused the DNC of not wanting to win as much as the Republicans did.

Kendrick Meek, a 40 year old African American Congressman from Miami.... knows that the Democrats are blameless in Florida's decision to have an early primary, and yet we basically gutted them. The Republicans, who did it, were treated quite differently. Because the Republicans like to win elections. So they did what their rules provide. And what our rules also provide, they said, 'Okay...you went ahead of time so we're going to seat you at half-delegates and seat all your super delegates. That's what any political party with any sense would do."

—Bill Clinton, Eugene, Oregon May 12, 2008
Denigrating party rules

There are other instances, but that is enough to show that these groups are simply continuing feelings that began when FL and MI broke the rules.

The group I call the "Catharis" group is today getting attention from the NYT. They are getting great mainstream media coverage.

Calling All Votes

Symbolic gestures and signs of respect always hold a larger meaning for the campaign that came in second. More than a few of Mrs. Clinton’s devotees, including plenty headed to Denver this month, are in need of catharsis and a bit of closure. They remain convinced that their gal got a raw deal, that she was treated unfairly by the news media, that she was cheated out of her Florida and Michigan delegates by hostile power brokers like Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi, that she was a victim of sexism, that the historic nature of her candidacy was callously dismissed in all the hullabaloo over the historic nature of Mr. Obama’s, and on and on and on.

Some of these allegations ring truer than others. But many of Mrs. Clinton’s supporters believe them intensely enough to want to make trouble for Mr. Obama. Discouraging Mrs. Clinton’s name from being entered into a roll-call vote would give her legions yet one more opportunity to feel that their candidate had been snubbed.

No, none of them ring true at all. That is the problem. Rules were followed.

That column is geared to garner sympathy for them. The rest of us have to make our own way out of the upset when our candidate loses. We don't get to wallow in self-pity. Other candidates and their supporters have not done that.

There is a danger in being too agreeable when people really feel like this. When they are so angry they even put ads in papers that claim Dean was neither impartial nor objective now or in the primary.It appeared in FL and MI papers

This ad actually says that Howard Dean took sides in the primaries and since.

"Howard Dean as chairman of the DNC is supposed to be both impartial and objective. The feeling of most of Senator Clinton's 18 million voters is he was not. They believe he was not during the primaries and they believe he hasn't been since."

I had this post done for a while, but I had almost decided not to post it. Then I see the horrible attack ad on Howard Dean at the Puma Alliance and see that NPR has asked them to contact them for an interview. That really made me angry.

They claim Obama is not the official nominee, and that Dean is the one who should place her name in nomination. The ad was in The Lansing Journal and The Tallahassee Democrat yesterday.

It is such an outrageous claim that I keep waiting for someone in the leadership, anyone, to stand up and say enough is enough.

But no one is doing that.

[madfloridian]

1. A thank you to a couple of bloggers really speaking out on this group now.

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/08/09/puma-g... /

http://www.yestodemocracy.com/yes_to_democracy_no_to_pu...

Good to see someone else concerned.

Since NPR won't be knocking on their door, they need some attention.

[PatGund]

16. As one of the bloggers.....

on "Yes To Democracy"......

Thank you. And I also thank Christina for the forum she's allowed me to share.

[madfloridian]

18. That is a great site with lots of good info.

And thank you for blogging there.

[sniffa]

2. I love Dean (always have)

There are some very vocal lunatics still making hay, and yes, they should be called out and hammered for their shit.

Thank you for everything you bring to DU (including the stuff I sometimes don't agree with).

[madfloridian]

3. Appreciate that comment.

I guess I was following the primaries so closely in FL that I knew this was not going to end easily.

[Sidney J Mussburger]

4. I never really respected Bill as a president

but with that quote there's no way I will ever respect that piece of shit. Fuck him. FYI, this has nothing to do with Hillary. Even though I don't like her, especially since the actions of the primary. I personally think she'd be a much better President than her husband. If history were reversed and Hill were president instead of Bill, I think we'd be living in a completely different world. Think about it, no impeachment, the economy would still be as good in the 90's as it had nothing to do with Bill. Prosperous nation without penis scandal would equal a democratic President in 2000 and we would live in what would be to us, an alternate universe.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

5. This is a very vocal, and perhaps reasonably well organized...

...but VERY SMALL band of fanatics -- they can't overturn the nomination now.

The most they can do is show up at the convention, produce some kind of stink, and make Hillary look like the angry, bitter, vengeful Queen of Sour Grapes.

This will only hurt Hillary's reputation, not Obama.

[madfloridian]

6. The only one who can not defend himself right now...

is Dean, because of his role as chair. That is my concern because it is so unfair to accuse him of sort of throwing the primary....and no one says hey guys, enough.

Yes, they are fairly small but have great access to media as they have teamed with some right wing groups it appears.

[GreenInNC]

20. Gov. Dean helped bring me back to the Dems

The year was 1986 and I was a college student in the North Carolina mountains and the fall election that year was the first time that students could vote in the towns where they went to school. I decided to run for county commission and the local Democratic Party did not give me any support because I was a student. I was so pissed, I left the party and reregistered unaffiliated. I eventially became very active with the Green Party and at one point was the only Green Party member in North Carolina to hold elected office. I also served as national co-chair of the party in '04-'05.

I reregistered Dem in 2005 because I saw the openness that Gov. Dean and NC Dem. Chair Jerry Meek were bringing to the party and I felt that my voice would be heard and what was important to me would be considered. I have since become very active in the party. I now serve as precinct chair, county party treasurer, chair of the county progressive dems, on my state senate district committee and am on our state and county executive committee.

I am headed out to Denver in a couple of weeks and I hope to be in the crowd Thursday night when Obama gives his acceptance speech. That night will be a truly historic moment for our country and I do not want to miss it.

[madfloridian]

21. Yes, the word "openness" in regard to Dean and Meek is a good one.

Bringing openness.

[dmr]

7. It truly baffles me that after all the lives losts, civil liberties destroyed

the destruction to the government, outing of Plame, forged intelligence, the rape of our treasury, crime after crime after crime after crime ... there are Democrats utilizing resources, time, energy and funds working against the Democratic Party at a time this country and world desperately needs a Democratic president in 2009.

It baffles me that these same people aren't aiming those resources against those who want to destroy this government further. Is Hillary Clinton more important than our country, or even our Party? We have already had 8 years of Bush*/Republican loyalty partisans infiltrating all aspects of our government, creating a disaster that must not be repeated.

I live and vote in Michigan. I'm over it. My candidate wasn't on the primary ballot, and subsequently pulled out of the race. I am angry at my state's Democratic leaders for screwing it up for all of us. I am mature enough to recognize that Howard Dean and the national Democratic Party's hands are clean. They have a job to do, and are doing it honorably.

The only vote I have cast that I am not over, and will never be over, is my 2000 vote for Al Gore in Broward County. Where were all those complainers back then? Where are they now against McCain?

If there are those who do not like the rules that they originally helped design and agreed to, I've no problem with that. They can work to effect changes for future primaries, or spin off to form another party. But to continue to use intellectual dishonesty tells me where they truly do stand, and that they are more Republican-like than they may care to admit.

I want Howard Dean to continue as our National Democratic Party leader. I think I'll call and write Monday to thank him for the work he has done.

[madfloridian]

8. Nice thought.

Hubby and I are having a hard time getting back into local politics now.

It has been very bitter here.

I agree, there is no good reason for this.

[davidpdx]

9. Good information MF

I'm sure you'll be attacked for bring it up though. I do want to point out that one of our most infamous haters on DU was repeating the meme the other day about the primary being unfair. It surprises me people have the gull to say that crap and don't get banned.

[madfloridian]

22. Yes, it is one of the main themes.

I think it happens a lot here under the radar.

I really worry about that undermining things.

[barack the house]

10. They can cut it however they wish but even fully seated Obama won....

It's like they are trying to say they want to enter a lottery then change the rules to win. Every Democrat candidate is beaten down in media just a reality.

[barack the house]

Hillary has said she doesn't wish to be put on the roll and honors the result so it's all cool -->

A lot of media spin out there to make the small things larger than they are. For them to dispute the result is to say Hillary doesn't know that the delegates would of still been behind if fully seated. The caucus scenario mostly comes down to the GOP who have left states underfunded all they can stretch to for the primary is caucuses. They are hoping for a fight that simply isn't there. If the 90s treated the clintons unfairly in media why did they somehow think it would improve for 08 both candidates were beat on it's so time to move on as Hillary herself urges.

[barack the house]

12. PUMA must calm down or she won't even make VP this isn't swaying delegates.-->

First the party won't overturn a result and look a flip flopper seconly they must use empahty and figure would they give a job to somewone who demaded it. no. ask nicely. Very nicely, that's helps Hillary.

[madfloridian]

25. I agree it could hurt Hillary.

.

[barack the house]

11. Hillary has said she doesn't wish to be put on the roll and honors the result so it's all cool ...

A lot of media spin out there to make the small things larger than they are.

[RNdaSilva]

13. This madness should come to a halt in 18 days...

hopefully.

[Pab Sungenis]

14. Obama has said he wants them fully seated

so STFDASTFU, PUMA.

[madfloridian]

17. His offer to fully seat them has angered them more than before.

I really don't want to link to the sites much more than I have, but that did set them off. They are saying the only reason is that he thinks it does not matter now.

[PatGund]

15. Understand

"Here is why I worry, and yes, I will quote the man I respected as a two-term president. I do it because I am worried that Howard Dean and Barack Obama are doing everything they can to be nice, and it is never enough. Never.

Something I wrote along these lines recently for an article on some PUMA's attempt to claim Sen. Obama's birth certificate and citizenship is a lie:

"It doesn't matter if Sen. Obama presents these things or not. Why? Because it will NEVER be enough Even if he were to do all these things, the PUMAs and their right-wing allies would just find something else more and more and more unreasonable to demand."

It's the same thing here. Every single bit of evidence showing it was fair will not be and never be enough for these people. It's not about Sen. Clinton to them, despite the lip service paid.

It's about blind unreasoning hatred. They're unhinged about Sen. Obama, and willing to believe almost anything about him, no matter how far-fetched.

[madfloridian]

19. NPR picks up on it...but not a single major Dem blogger will defend Dean.

They just ignore the whole thing. Some think that is best.

I think when a party leader is being publicly ridiculed then someone should speak out.

That show tomorrow morning on NPR...wonder who else will be asked via online comments?

This is all pathetic.

[madfloridian]

43. Did anyone catch the interview on NPR?

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?ac...

[polichick]

23. I think Obama should insist that Hill and Bill speak on the same night...

By giving them two nights of a four-night convention, he's offering the Clintons and disgruntled supporters too many chances to disrupt things.

[madfloridian]

26. I agree two nights in a row are too much.

[madfloridian]

24. Not just Bill either. His wife said similar things.

Interview with St. Pete Times

So why didn't she speak up sooner about the need to count the votes of Florida Democrats, rather than wait until her campaign was in trouble after losses in Iowa and South Carolina?

"I was a little preoccupied,'' she said, laughing. "I was trying to stay alive, frankly."

.."The elected officials in Michigan were all united — let's revote. The Democratic National Committee decided to support a revote. The only person who didn't want to let people vote was Sen. Obama,'' Clinton responded.

"The cynical explanation is, no, Sen. Obama does not want people's votes to count. We're Democrats. I thought we believed in counting votes."

And still talking about a catharsis at the expense of party unity.

[Dr.Phool]

27. A partial reason can be found here. I found the link at TPM.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12420.html

[knitter4democracy]

28. I think Dean was played. And I think we should lose our superdelegates.

If they want to seat Michigan at all, I say strip us of half our delegates (same as the GOP), and make sure those are our superdelegates. They're the people who got us into this mess, and it'll hurt them more than it will the rest of us.

[madfloridian]

29. I feel MI and FL worked together in coordination.

The fact that no one in either state is coming out in defense when Dean is accused of throwing the primary tells me so very much.

Our superdelegates in FL should praise the Lord if they only get half a vote...I hope not a whole one.

[knitter4democracy]

33. I've gotten the feeling that it was all worked out long ahead of time.

Sen. Levin's been working on moving up the Michigan primary for awhile, so I'm not sure it was anything other than the usual for him. Granholm and Stabenow, though, are both moderates firmly in Hillary's camp. I think they conspired with Hillary to make all this happen, believing that Michigan was enough of a swing state that we'd get our way in the end. Gov. Granholm made it quite clear whom she supported and expected us to vote for.

I don't think they should even get to go to the convention, I'm so pissed off about it. We, the rank and file Dems, were ignored and thrown away by our own party leadership, and I don't think they should get to vote at all.

[madfloridian]

34. Hubby and I are still estranged from many local Democrats over this.

Because we told the truth. Because they tried to crash Dean's fundraising.

They did not want to hear the truth. They just wanted revenge against Dean for not going along with the early primaries.

Yes, I think it was all coordinated. Perhaps in time we can prove it.

[knitter4democracy]

36. All against the best party chair we've ever had.

I worked to get him elected president, and while I do think he could've worked something out before it really hit the fan, using his weight, Dr. Dean is still the party chair and should still be respected and followed. I'm so damn tired of Clintonites ruining the party.

[madfloridian]

37. Actually only the rules committee could do anything like that.

His authority is limited by the bylaws.

[knitter4democracy]

39. Very true.

It's a mess.

[bertman]

30. They got the name wrong. Should be "Cheatahs" not "Pumas".

This is just another part of the Bill and Hill Show. They will never give up and go away. They will instigate and encourage these bitters to the, well, bitter end.

It's all another ploy to get Hillary on the ticket. Pure and simple.


Let's hope that Obama and Dean put that bullshit to rest quickly.

[Zhade]

31. Obama won fair and square, and that's a fact.

These people are whiny idiots.

[madfloridian]

32. This is scary...now blaming Dean and Obama for a missing Puma.

The person showed up, but this is getting very scary. They are blaming Dean and Obama for intimidating delegates and Pumas. When does free speech cross the line into actual lies and fear-mongering???

http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/sunday-it... /

"We have become aware of attempts by the DNC and the Obama campaign to intimidate delegates. We know how Obama feels about “those people”, like there’s something wrong with us and they should stay away from us. Oh, yes, they are trying to make us as unpopular as Michael Moore. It’s their goal to dehumanize us, to make us objects. That way they can heap scorn and derision on us and diminish our power. The Obama supporters can treat us like less than human without penalty.

Well, that kind of $#*^ has consequences.

Tonight, one of our coalition members is missing. She hasn’t been seen since she left our conference site earlier this afternoon. No one has been able to contact her on her cell phone. Her mother is worried because she knows her daughter has had anonymous phone calls to her cell phone, threatening to track her down, who actually *knew* where she was and where she was going.

We are all very, very concerned. But this is what happens when you reduce your opponent’s supporters to dirt beneath your feet, easily ignored, dismissed, illegitimate."

Someone needs to step in here.

[madfloridian]

35. A literal threat. "Someone is going to get hurt"....?

"Update: DancesWithPumas reports that our friend checked in and is safe. We are all very relieved. But the point still stands. We are sick and tired of the smears and dehumanizing speech and the death threats from the Obama supporters. It’s time to reign them in. We’re people, we’ve got lives and people who depend on us and none of us deserve this treatment from the mouths of the DNC, the Obama campaign and or Obama’s out-of-control supporters simply because we choose to exercise our right to speak freely and assemble.

Enough is enough. Someone is going to get hurt."

Someone will get hurt??

[Arnold Judas Rimmer]

38. "as unpopular as Michael Moore"??

Funny, the only people I know who don't like Michael Moore are Repukes and DLC'ers.

The only people who DO like the toothless pussycat brigade?

Repukes and DLC'ers.

Go figure.

[madfloridian]

40. It is an overall weird post.

And scary with the idea that Obama or Dean would harm one of them.

[TheKentuckian]

41. Most of these people are huge fakes

They say stuff like "liberal media" (only true Republicans utter the phrase)and hope for Romney (who creeps out everyone regardless of politics and religion) on the ticket.

I've also never seen so many "life long Democrats" that apparently have no clue to our primary process.
I also despise hypocrites. A favored talking point is "selected not elected" but that is exactly what they demand, they want the majority of elected delegates overturned to SELECT "their candidate".

Even DLC'ers don't spit the word liberal like venom. They just love money and buy into the global market.They are pleased to be liberal about whatever doesn't mess the flow of revenue.

[madfloridian]

42. But accusing Dean and Obama of disappearing a Puma...

unreal.

[ieoeja]

44. In another thread madfloridian posted a link to this thread.

And I wrote pretty much the exact same thing about that comment before reading down-thread here and seeing your reply.

The "unpopular Michael Moore" comment makes it pretty obvious this person is a fake. Even if that particular poster doesn't like Michael Moore, you would have to be a pretty isolated Democrat to think he was unpopular among Democrats in general.

If PUMAs write like rightists, if they all echo the same talking points as one another like rightists, and if they manage the media like rightists ... then they just might truly be members of the Republic Party.

[Maria Wr]

46. Puma s mostly are repugs for HRC

who liked hil more than mcsame and Sen O. Had no intentions of ever voting for Sen O anyways.

[madfloridian]

47. You may be right...my problem is their accusations against Dean

when all he did is stick to the rules of the Rules Committee that were voted upon by the majority.

That is what angers me. I firmly believe that many of these people are trouble making Republicans. BUT...

They are using Hillary's name to attack the party chairman and nominee.

I believe Hillary could stop it if she so chose.

[madfloridian]

45. There is still so much anger because of what these states did.

I see it here tonight.

If the right people spoke up, it could be eased. But they won't.

[DangerousRhythm]

48. I wish they would.. someone, anyone.

This is getting extremely ridiculous.