Will the "Ads" Dictate the VP Choice?

[DemocracyInaction]

Even before last week's garbage ads by McCain I was rolling my eyes at the possibility of someone like Kaine because two "rookies" (as they will be portrayed) would be disasterous to winning. Now post-ads, I think Obama seriously needs a McCain-equal attack dog like Biden. Because of all the years spent in Congress, Joe can treat McCain as an equal while we are seeing Obama have to treat the bastard "respectfully" as McCain constantly treats Obama like the shoe-shine 'boy' in the Senate cloak room. I honestly think McCain would fear to cross Joe's path. It's really going to take "senior senator"-type credentials to be accepted by the people as "not going after the poor old man"!

[darius15]

1. Biden is my #1 pick

[LeftyMom]

2. The upside to picking somebody older

is that they can't play the rookie card so much if he has an "elder statesman" sort in the subordinate role.

[BklynChick]

3. I'm inclined to agree.

[FrenchieCat]

4. McCain is an arrogant little man, and Joe Biden certainly could put him in his place....

But the shoe shine part of your text needs to be edited out. You are offending me with it.

[DemocracyInaction]

6. Frenchie---I think it aptly describes McCain's contempt

Shoe-shine boy is exactly the words that come to my mind when I hear the tone of McCain's speech when he's referencing Obama. From the get go he has talked down to him and had an arrogant tone that said "he should know his place", etc. I wish Obama was free to treat the bastard with the same disrespect that McCain treats him. It's not only the words, it's the body language and the tone. It's what McCain thinks of Obama and it's why it disgusts me.

[FrenchieCat]

8. Whatever McCain does, you repeating it

ain't exactly helping our cause, DemocracyInaction.

Like I said, it is offensive to me, as a Black Person.
Whatever McCain is trying to convey, you putting it in words for clarity
ain't exactly required.

Just sayin'.

[frogcycle]

13. I understand your sensitivity to the expression,

but I tend to agree that it is exactly what McCain conveys.McCain is an old-school racist; I wish someone would provoke him to really showing that. He'd probably use language much worse than "shoe-shine boy."

[FrenchieCat]

17. Do you also agree with this characterization of Obama by poster

from another thread? Cause he reads like a disruptor to me.

DemocracyInaction (1000+ posts) Sun Aug-03-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Hi - fellow Mainer
First let me begin by saying I hope the first off-shore drilling rig is right off Walker's Point!!!!..and that it leaks!

Second - we always have too much faith in the (gasp) campaign (the holy campaign and the brilliant people who run it, blah, blah). Well, who the hell would have thought that a power house like the Clinton political cartel would have been so fucking stupid that they paid millions to an idiot who had NO plan! And remember this (which should make you crap your pants): Obama was a phenom at the beginning of the primaries and sucked down the points early. Then he got his ass wiped by Clinton in the second half and his campaign just stood there. I've seen too much of this nutty believing that a campaign staff is just waiting to play all the brilliant cards. They were visibly knocked on their ass this week and despite all their "we will be ready for them", just had no clue what to do. If next week goes the same way, Obama needs to hire some balls (or iron tits) onto his team.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6575721&mesg_id=6582204


Sounds like a PUMA. Anyone else would know that Obama wasn't interested in fighting dirty politics with the likes of a member of his own party.

[frogcycle]

28. no, I don't

I was not an Obama supporter at the outset, but not because I have anything against him. I like him. I voted for him for Senator (well, ok, that's not saying much when Alan Keyes was the alternative, but I was glad to see him get the nom and glad when his pug rival self-destructed).

My opinion now is that he is the nominee, and whatever misgivings one might have about him or his campaign are best kept to oneself unless one is in a position to offer opinions personally, in private, to the campaign. THEN one can and should offer constructive criticism. REGARDLESS of one's potential preference for someone else (I still wish it was a Biden/Obama ticket) it is what it is, and we must make the best of it. Rants like the one you quote are pointless and unhelpful.

Attacking the OP over the post you quote is fair game.

But back to the offending expression: while agreeing that it is offensive, and disregarding the background you provide above, it is a characterization of McCain, not of Obama, and as such my opinion of THAT post stands.

[CakeGrrl]

5. Military/foreign policy cred is needed...that's where McCain *seems* most untouchable

His campaign is playing up his service record/POW status as his great credential to lead the US militarily and in foreign affairs, so that needs to be countered with someone who can be perceived as a peer lest the Dem ticket be painted as some neophyte draft-dodger types daring to challenge the great military man.

[Motown_Johnny]

7. a 2 senator ticket is not exactly the way to change D.C., or at least that will be the attack

Richardson is still my top pick

[DemocracyInaction]

9. I love Bill but

bless him, he gets all tongue tied and can't make a point for the life of him in a debate. They'll walk all over him.

[frogcycle]

11. yeah, he splutters and stammers

He's a nice guy and all, but far from inspirational

[bvar22]

35. Agree.

Two Northern sitting Senators does not make a good ticket.

[frogcycle]

10. You betcha

I can still hear Joe saying 'I can't WAIT to debate Rudy Guiliani on foreign policy' and "I can't WAIT to debate the republicans on morality." Ok, so the players have changed and even the issues may have, but I know Joe still can't WAIT to take on John McCain on Iraq/Iran/Pakistan/Afghainstan, as well as a host of other issues.

The only risk is Joe upstaging Obama. I know he'd not mean to, and I know Joe would show deference to him in person, but Joe would be doing point/counterpoint on the stump, and could begin to look like the stronger candidate. But so the hell what? If Obama's ego can stand it, it could be a winning move.

[Buddy Tess]

12. Bill Richard is a pretty good choice, IMHO NT

[DFLforever]

18. But Biden as VP would not be debating McCain but McCain's

VP choice. I doubt that debate will even touch much on foreign policy. It's not the usual province of our VP(despite Cheney).

Sorry, I can't envision an election campaign where the VP stumps on foreign policy. I don't think it's the main concern of the electorate this year.

And why would Biden want to relinquish the chairmanship of the Foreign
Relations Committee at a time when under a Dem president he could become one of the most powerful men in the country forming our foreign policy.

[Muttocracy]

19. I wonder about the relative influence of VP, Sec of State and SFRC chair

He obviously has mastery of SFRC, but unless we get a much bigger majority in Senate, he can be thwarted there even with Obama in the WH.

Sec. of State would give him a lot of foreign policy influence, but also remove him from working on judiciary and crime issues he cares about.

VP would really depend on how Obama wants to use his VP.

[frogcycle]

31. I agree that he should stay where he is

except that he'd be so damned good - overqualified, to be sure - as veep. I know that the formal debates are vpnom-vpnom, and on the stump it would be tricky. All that said, Kaine and Bayh leave me cold.

Bottom line: we HAVE to win the election, and mccain's staying power despite myriad gaffes and being more of the same is getting scary.

[frogcycle]

14. Supposedly there are three "finalists"

Kaine, Bayh, and Biden.
The fact that rumors surfaced about Kaine one day, then Bayh another, but none about Joe, leads me to suspect that Joe has the nod, and the rumors are intentionally circulated to keep folks from figuring it out.

[Muttocracy]

15. Excuse me but Biden is McCain's superior, not equal!!!

:grr: ;)

Seriously, Biden has been in the senate longer than McCain and can run circles around him on policy knowledge. I bet Biden knows McCain's voting record better than McCain does! (all those times on the straight-to-hell-express bus he can't answer press questions about his record)

Last summer I had a feeling the GOP would eventually go with McCain. It's one of the main reasons I wanted Biden as the Dem. nominee (that and I think our foreign policy and separation of powers are the two greatest problems we have)

I'm not entirely sure I'd want Biden as the VP candidate, but he's done a better job than my other preferences (Schweitzer, Feingold, Clark) for being an effective surrogate so far. Kerry did well this morning when he could get a word in, but I wish he had been as crisp as Biden, esp. on the surge issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tbZZPi0_Fw (watch Biden grin at 4:00 in, ready to pounce)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK0hW7VqGkg

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25315527#25315527

[DemocracyInaction]

16. you're right--superior!

Snarkey would need to dig all the way down to his balls in his pants pocket to dig out his infernal note cards if Joe fires a broadside. Joe knows Snarkey and where Snarkey's skeltons are hidden. Dear god I do hope it's Joe.

[frogcycle]

30. indeed

I had first-hand demonstrations of Joe's encyclopedic knowledge and ability to explain lucidly on a wide range of topics when I worked on his campaign. It was all I could do to keep from just hugging him when I was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with him after a campaign event and he was signing autographs and answering questions. His ability to connect with people person-to-person and delve into THEIR issues was astonishing. My family told me I had a "man crush" on him, and I guess whatever that is they are probably right.

[Think82]

20. I think Biden is the best choice... the Johnson to Obama's Kennedy, the Seward to Obama's Lincoln

I think Obama needs an elder statesman with experience in getting legislation through congress and to convince people who think Obama is "risky." I happen to think that Obama IS NOT risky, but I think a lotta people in Ohio, Indiana, Virginia and Hillary supporters might need that experience on the ticket.

Also, Biden does not totally destroy the "change" message. Biden has lead sweeping reforms and has been "changing" Washington for years.

[DemocracyInaction]

21. Seward was his Sec. of State

Lincoln..that is. His first VP was Fesseden from Maine (wasn't it) and his second Johnson. Anyway, I think Obama, like Lincoln, isn't afraid of people who are strong, of different opinions, etc. like the paranoid GOP is. I think he is someone who can interact with anyone and not be dominated by anyone. I detest that he's in a box where he has to be "respectful" to McCain...would love to have him push McCain against a wall in cloak room when no one is watching, give him a piece of his mind, and then lay his big smile on the bastard and stroll away............

[Think82]

23. I know he was SOS, but the SOS in those days was more like a cheney-esque veep IMO

The SOS was not abroad so much those days...

[salonghorn70]

24. Lincoln's VP 1861-1865

Hannibal Hamlin of Maine

[DemocracyInaction]

25. That's right - Fesseden was an Admiral

We have a lot of streets named Fesseden here that's why I went brain dead.

[Alter Ego]

37. Lincoln's first VP was Sen. Hannibal Hamlin of Maine.

[frogcycle]

29. I have long said that

Obama needs a "bench coach." For those who don't know baseball, that is a long-time baseball man, often a former manager, who gets paid to sit in th edugout next to the manager and whisper in his ear. Not much glamor, but frequently calls the shots that win the game.

And Joe is the best man for that job. Not just foreign policy - across the board.

[gateley]

22. The beauty of Biden, is that even though we're referring to him as an

attack dog -- his attacks are VALID. And ON POINT. Not just an attack for the sake of it. He knows his stuff and he'd pulverize the Rep ticket.

(Even though I'd still prefer him as SOS, I think he could bring a lot to the ticket and could help with the win in November.)

[PatSeg]

27. I agree

I think Biden is far too talented and knowledgeable to be a VP, but I think he is the best choice for a winning ticket.

[TexasObserver]

26. I like Biden for VP.

Or Richardson, although I'm leaning more toward Biden now, for the reasons you state.

We need someone with some stones to be an attack dog with some class.

Biden knows everything McCain has done in the senate, and could use that for good effect.

[demokatgurrl]

32. No, but I'll bet the media will. n/t

[Debi]

33. Biden's my choice!

Go Joe :bounce:

[Fly by night]

34. Anyone BUT Hillary. Why? 'Cause all the Sunday morning talking heads endorse her.

Their reich-wing handlers know that the surest way to pull defeat from the jaws of victory in November is to put Hillary on the ticket. They keep hoping that Obama will abandon all reason to take that bait.

I'm not worried though. Obama may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

[Phoonzang]

36. Seeing how long he's going to be in Indiana....

It's probably going to be Bayh. I think I'll avoid coming to DU for about a week after that's announced. I'm afraid the screaming will blow out my CPU.

[gateley]

40. A panel member on Meet The Press said that Obama would

be spending "face time" with Bayh, Biden and Kaine this week. :shrug:

[DFLforever]

38. NO. McCain's outbreak of envy and contempt ads

will have no affect on Obama's VP pick, his agenda, his schedule, his strategy, his issues.

IMO, last week was a big FAIL for the McCain camp, because he was unable to get the 'angry black' response for which he'd baited.

[DemocracyInaction]

39. DFL---I realized in the wee hours of the morning

something you pointed out. It was "sit straight up in bed" moment. They didn't just want to bait Obama. They wanted a Jackson or Sharpton outcry. Why?...because of the responses that were swirling around the Imus case. While decent people were outraged at Imus, the appearance of Sharpton brought out all the racial fangs of the Republican base. Imus became a hero to them and they could wail that this was the 60's and the 70's errupting all over again, blah, blah. They wanted Obama to be right in the middle of a race war. With the way Jackson and Sharpton hang around Fox, I had the sick feeling in my stomach that they will eventually do this to him. However, Jesse blew his cover a few weeks ago and wouldn't dare.

[DFLforever]

41. You're right

It's maybe the chief reason McCain put those ads out under his own name rather than using a 527.

I couldn't figure out how he would make such a basic mistake - risking his own image by putting out defamatory ads. But he needed it to be 'personal' in order to get a personal and very angry response from Obama.

But our man is much too smart to fall for that.

I kind of think 'race' as an issue may have peaked last week. Not that we won't see more of it. But I think it's lost some of its sting.

[WheelWalker]

42. Anyone less than Biden puts the election at risk. Picking a lightweight will torpedo Obama. He

has to recognize that. He's shown excellent judgment so far. And Joe will do what's necessary to win in November. These two are pragmatists. I'm a closet optimist.