WP Kaine in Serious Talks with Obama-- Bayh and Biden also

[grantcart]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/28/AR2008072802041.html?hpid=topnews

There are more and more observers who are now agreeing with the observations first made at DU that a relistening of the MTP interview seems to tilt towards Governor Kaine.

Kaine in 'Serious' Talks With Obama

Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine has told close associates that he has had "very serious" conversations with Sen. Barack Obama about joining the Democratic presidential ticket and has provided documents to the campaign as it combs through his background, according to several sources close to Kaine.

Sens. Evan Bayh (Ind.) and Joseph R. Biden Jr. (Del.) are also being seriously vetted by the campaign staff, according to sources with knowledge of the process.


But several people who have spoken to Kaine said he has talked about the seriousness of the possibility. Each spoke on the condition of anonymity, citing the campaign's desire to keep the process secret. One said Kaine has stressed that there are other top candidates but described his discussions with the campaign as "very serious."

Two other associates said Kaine's staff is providing the background information necessary to allow the campaign to search for potential political land mines. One source said Kaine chief counsel Larry Roberts is coordinating with Obama's team. Roberts could not be reached for comment. Kaine will be in Washington today for his monthly interview on WTOP Radio.

Kaine and Obama became friends after they campaigned together during Kaine's 2005 gubernatorial race. Kaine, who like Obama has Kansas roots, has returned the favor, stumping nationwide for the senator from Illinois during the primaries. In recent weeks, Kaine and his staff have been in frequent contact with Obama and his campaign about strategy and operations in Virginia and elsewhere. The governor has said he plans to attend the Democratic convention in Denver with his wife and children.

Picking Kaine would seem to satisfy many considerations Obama has recently laid out. During an interview with Tom Brokaw on NBC's "Meet the Press" on Sunday, the presumptive Democratic nominee said he was looking for someone who shares his desire to change Washington politics.

Kaine, a former Richmond mayor, would bring outside-the-Beltway credentials to the campaign. The relationship the two share would seem to fit with Obama's desire, as he said, for someone "with independence -- who's willing to tell me where he thinks, or she thinks, I'm wrong." And the governor probably would bolster Obama in Virginia, where the campaign is making an all-out push.

In 2005, the major issue Republicans took aim at was his opposition to the death penalty, but since becoming governor, Kaine has declined to stop several executions.

"I want somebody who I'm compatible with, who I can work with, who has a shared vision, who certainly complements me, in the sense that they provide a knowledge base or an area of expertise that can be useful. Because we're going to have a lot of problems and a lot of work to do," he said Sunday. "I want somebody who's going to be able to roll up their sleeves and really do some work."

Speaking to Brokaw, he reiterated that Clinton "would be on anybody's short list." Yet few people close to the Obama campaign think she is a serious contender


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/28/AR2008072802041_2.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2008072802433&pos=

[ErinBerin84]

1. ah, I hate leaked info.

I want to be surprised. Bayd is third on my list out of those three though.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Kaine, Biden -- great.

If it's that tapioca custard DLC tool Bayh I'll gouge out my eyes with a grapefruit spoon.

[ErinBerin84]

4. I like tapioca custard .

I think of Bayd as more cottage cheese, or saltine cracker or something :)

[WheelWalker]

18. Oh, how I love that image...and if that doesn't make you feel better,

feel free to rip off my lips, climb down my throat, and eat my heart out.

[Pirate Smile]

81. I agree. Either Kaine or Biden sound great.

[David Dunham]

3. Kaine is a nice guy BUT NO NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERIENCE

In the end, Kaine would not be a strong candidate.

[thewiseguy]

5. Get this national security crap out of your system

National security experience? WTF does that even mean?

[David Dunham]

7. It means a lot to most US voters especially moderates.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. It means nothing

It's stupidity for idiots

[Egnever]

156. Theres a lot of idiots out there

[chimpymustgo]

132. How is Kaine ready to be a heartbeat from the Presidency??? This can't be serious.

Why will people in Ohio and PA and Mich and CO who're on the fence, come jumping off for Tim Kaine???

A first term Sen. picks a 1st term Gov nobody's heard of? This just can't be serious.

[saltpoint]

137. Virginia's governors serve 1 term by law.

Ohio and Pennsylvania and Michigan and Colorado all have significant Catholic voter populations.

Service to others is an excellent theme for any campaign, especially one for the presidency in 2008, after 8 years of Bush/Cheney.

Kaine meets these criteria nicely and several others as well.

[chimpymustgo]

170. I know that. Still doesn't qualify him to be a heartbeat away. "Service to others?"

That'll get laughed offed the ballot.

You still didn't answer the question. I know. You can't.

[saltpoint]

176. Kaine's qualified on all counts, IMO. If you have a Constitutional argument

that says different, post it. Otherwise, it's your personal bias, and it's a limited one at that.

One doesn't always get one's way, you know.

Obama's the nominee. He gets to choose for himself.

[chimpymustgo]

180. What a nasty, narrow, non-answer. My gardener is a 35 year old native born citizen.

Not an argument to put him on the ticket.

[saltpoint]

183. Excuse me, but that's incorrect. If your gardener meets the

specific criteria laid out by the Founders, it is literally an argument to put him on the ticket. Given his satisfying those Constitutional criteria, he is entirely free to run for office, entirely free to accept an appointment at any level of government.

Why do you feel someone who is a gardener should not be in the public sector?

[Dinger]

138. If You Have To Ask What It Means, Maybe You Should Wait To Decide

if it's important or not (and it IS important).

[grantcart]

6. It would be interesting if candidates actually indicated their national security

team during the nomination.


Appointing Clark and Hagel to key positions would help regardless of who is the VP


I have always wondered why they don't announce key senior cabinet positions during the campaign.

[MonkeyFunk]

25. A couple of reasons

You don't know who the pool of candidates for cabinet positions is until after the election. Recently-defeated senators are often a good choice.

Also, it opens up that many more people to media scrutiny before the election. Instead of the press latching onto everything two people do, there could 10 people who are scrutinized every moment of every day.

Then, vetting and choosing the cabinet is a BIG job, and one that rightfully occurs AFTER the election. Why take a month out during the campaign to do it?

Finally, if the candidate loses, his loss would taint ALL the people who were "pre-chosen" for the post.

[elocs]

11. Some might say that for Obama to pick a VP with national security experience

highlights his own lack of it, just as McCain picking a very young man in comparison with himself screams, "I'm old!"

[Barack_America]

21. Economy trumps terra. nt

[Pirate Smile]

86. Obama doesn't think he needs anyone re national security experience. He trusts his judgment and

has many experienced advisers.

[Skwmom]

122. So Biden and Bayh, with their so called experience, voted for the biggest DEBACLE

in US History.

[Virginia Dare]

133. Who gives a shit? We don't need another Cheney..

put Wes Clark in as the NSA, and you're golden.

[panader0]

8. Richardson, Biden and Clark

Please not Bayh or Kaine.

[elleng]

15. Please not richardson.

Kaine did a great 'show' at Brookings last week; saw it on c-span today. REALLY covers the waterfront, and clearly capable of handling lots of messes, imo.

[defendandprotect]

37. Not Kaine . . . too heavy a RELIGIOUS background . . .

Let's not have another LIEBERMAN . . .

[elleng]

I don't think 'heavy' religious background

(whatever that is) suggests lieberman; he's got other problems, imo.

[defendandprotect]

64. Kaine is an ex-Catholic missionary . . . pro life and anti-gay . . .

This is 2008 -- not the 5th century . . . isn't it?

[saltpoint]

126. You are mistaken. Kaine is a current Catholic who did missionary work

in Central America. He is not an ex-Catholic and he is not a current missionary.

grantcart and others have convincingly addressed your "issues" on pro-life and anti-gay, yet you continue to assert them as if they were factual. Your clipped slam is a cheap shot, given that others on DU have posted thorough treatments of both issues.

[Virginia Dare]

136. What about his governing has been 5th century?...n/t

[Thothmes]

163. So far as Governor he has not

allowed personal beliefs to interfere with public policy. He has allowed the state of Virginia to execute five men. He has commuted only one death sentence since becoming Governor.

[elleng]

165. So we're gonna make this election vs.

5th century?

or about Kaine's record as Virginia governor?

See his presentation at brookings; on cpan.

[saltpoint]

123. Bill Moyers, as liberal as they come, is a Baptist minister.

[Virginia Dare]

134. It doesn't effect his governing in the least...

in fact, he's let some executions go through even though he personally opposes the death penalty.

[hamsterjill]

171. Totally agree

We don't need to compromise Democratic values at this stage of the game.

I am not liking the fact that it appears as if Obama is waffling on a pro choice stance by choosing a possible VP who is not in favor of a woman's right to choose. The platform is pro choice and therefore the candidates should be pro choice.

Anything less is just ass-kissing.

[earthlover]

9. Kaine is kool. Biden is Great. Bayh is boring. n/t

[saltpoint]

12. Kaine doesn't seem kooky to me in the way the Republicans are kooky.

With someone like Romney, "kooky" becomes "creepy" awfully fast.

Agree on Bayh. I think he'd be loyal to Obama but he is a bit flat-spirited on the stump.

Biden has been a favorite of mine for many, many moons.

With Kaine I think we'd have a competent and compassion soul supporting Obama.

I get the Harvard law School intellect combined with the rolled-up-sleeves service in Central America.

I get a humble man and dutiful spirit and multiple accomplishments.

[defendandprotect]

40. Look at . . .

Kaine's religious background --- and his personal "pro-life" stand - tho he supposed

protected Roe vs Wade in VA --

and his background as a Spanish-speaking former Catholic missionary


. . . . and think LIEBERMAN . . . DEJA VOUS ALL OVER AGAIN?


We're also over the top in Catholics in Congress ---

[saltpoint]

50. For me the hinge is to contest the religious vote and to do it by

reframing the debate.

Jesus is not a right-wing kook. He was a firebrand, revolutional liberal.

I think we should redefine that discussion in the United States and then clean up at the polls. Let's have these mega-church fundie Protestants be forced to re-examine their own faith.

Kaine is Catholic, but he's a St. Francis Catholic and not an Inquisitor Catholic.

[defendandprotect]

60. Be careful you don't get un-hinged ---

this could be another LIEBERMAN -- remember him?

Jesus was a Commie --- great! But he's not running for office ---
and from what I can see he's on a perpetual vacation ----!!!

Kaine looks like another religous nut ---
This is 2008 and he's holding 5th Century opinions ---

PLUS we have an overflow of Catholics in Congress now ----

and think of Scalia and Thomas --- two Catholics we could live without!

[saltpoint]

63. On specific points, you generalize all Catholics as if all Catholics

were exactly like Scalia.

That is inaccurate.

The Catholic Church, for all its flaws and virtues, runs a kick-ass charity arm unrivaled by most other organizations. Many Catholics work in those centers and hospitals etc. and labor anonymously to help others.

That's the service I'm referencing. That's the Christianity I believe Kaine could help Obama redefine.

Your personal religion is not of consequence to me, so I'm completely neutral on it.

I'm a half-assed agnostic myself.

But I would support any effort by a national Democrat to redefine the tenets of Jesus' ministry as service to one's neighbors, whether they're actual next-door folk or abandoned folk along the Gulf Coast.

[defendandprotect]

69. Oh, please . .. you still have a RCC that denies the full personhood of females . . .

If that's not 5 Century, I don't know what is . . . ???

What I'm pointing to is the problems we already have --- Scalia and Thomas --- remember them?

The Catholic Church's charities are now sucking up taxpayer dollars with "faith-based"

programs.

We don't need more religion in government --- we need religion OUT of government!

We don't need anyone to "redefine Jesus' ministry" . . . we need to redefine our commitment

to a "people's government" and to "do the greatest good for the greatest number of people."


Jesus isn't going to stop the wars --- nor feed the hungry. It's up to us ---

Not Jesus ---

[saltpoint]

85. Your anti-Catholic bias isn't persuasive in the center of practical

politics where Obama, if he goes on to defeat McCain, must then govern.

Your argument for the personhood of women inside the Church is a valid argument IMO but you've aimed it at the wrong target -- the Governor of Virginia is not that kind of Catholic. You've failed to make distinctions of type and purpose and intent and context so far; I'm asking that you reconsider the vast milage between Francis of Assissi and the Inquisition. To lump those together is to say that RFK Jr. or Bella Abzug are Democrats just like early George Wallace was a Democrat. Which is to say, that dog don't hunt.

You may also be missing the opportunity of a political lifetime, namely the reconfiguring of a philsophical construct MIS-held by current fundamentalists. Obama may be engineering just such a vast sea change, and his own personal knowledge of the New Testament is likely far superior than most of the fundie nutbags who think women should stay home and help with the cookin' and that lesbians and gay men should not have the right to marry if the wish.

Kaine magnifies the odds of that change. We don't know if he's the pick or not. But there are positives to be found for those who care to look.

[defendandprotect]

95. You're suggesting that we need more religion to defeat religion . . . ?

Your anti-Catholic bias isn't persuasive in the center of practical
politics where Obama, if he goes on to defeat McCain, must then govern.

That's as near as I can figure out that babble ---

THIS governor is the kind of Catholic whose mind is still in the 5th Century . . .
He's pro-life and anti-gay . . . what in the hell does that say for his enlightenment?

There are no positives in more patriarchal religion in government ---
get off that merry-go-round . ..

[saltpoint]

98. You sound more angry than informed.

Which will isolate you to the larger process.

Obama gets to choose whoever he wishes, whether you approve of the choice or whether I approve of the choice.

That's the system, that's how it works.

If you want to discuss an aspect of religion in history as it crosses the intersection of politics and power, I'll co-host a thread with you in the Religion forum at a mutually convenient time. PM me and we'll set it up.

My argument here is in support of the OP, with whom I agree on most things, and in support of Kaine, who is a Franciscan Catholic and not an Inquisitorial Catholic, a distinction you either do not understand or stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

If the veep choice turns out to be Kaine, are you going to take your anti-Catholic biases on key issues and stomp off into the desert never to be heard from again, or are you going to play ball in the big arena?

You aren't going to get it the way you want it 100% of the time. Same for me, same for everybody.

[defendandprotect]

101. Obviously, you are looking for a right-wing religous candidate . . .

Obama wants to get elected -- therefore, he is going to select someone either that he's told
to take by the elites --- or someone who he thinks will appeal to the voters ---
because the way we have things set up now, the VP automatically becomes a very viable
candidate for President in the next round ---

That's the system - that's how it works ---


When you have some time to waste on this . . . try to rephrase it ---
If you want to discuss an aspect of religion in history as it crosses the intersection of politics and power, I'll co-host a thread with you in the Religion forum at a mutually convenient time. PM me and we'll set it up. and try to make clear what the point is.

This is laughable . . .

My argument here is in support of the OP, with whom I agree on most things, and in support of Kaine, who is a Franciscan Catholic and not an Inquisitorial Catholic, a distinction you either do not understand or stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

Who would not have known this . . . are you actually reading what I'm saying to you?

I'm quite familiar with what you're "argument" ---
I'm a Recovering Catholic ---

Now . . . try this --
Kaine's thinking is 5th Century . . .
Kaine has not been thru the Enlightenment.
Is that really what you want?
Evidently, you do!

However, more religion isn't going to improve the harm done by religion nor the harm
still being done by religion --


I'd protest heartily any choice such as Kaine ---
it would make me think much less of Obama ---
However, most of us are stuck with Dems until more of you wake up to the betrayals --
and the right-wing/corporate influence over the party ---

"Play ball in the big arena?" . . .

Yeah -- like we did when Gore took on Lieberman . . . ???


:rofl:

[saltpoint]

103. If it pleases you to advance histrionic remarks in support of your

bias, no one will stop you.

But you've missed the key point on the selection process.

You missed it right out of the gate by demanding female genitalia for the OP's list, although the OP was quoting a secondary source and conveying to those who would listen.

Which clearly did not include you.

Obama can choose anybody he wants. Male. Female. Whoever he wishes.

I honestly don't think you get that part.

[defendandprotect]

105. Ok . . .

clearly you're not really up to debate ---

and clearly you want another male religion pusher ---

you're now on ignore ---

[saltpoint]

106. D&P, it will be a honor to be on your Ignore list.

Happy trails!

[musicblind]

172. You don't seem very up for debate either

You just seemed to be filled with a lot of bigoted hate towards religion.

[book_worm]

112. obviously you are a religious bigot

and as such I can't have much respect for you because you lump all Catholics into one pot.

[jefferson_dem]

109. Wow. Hate much?

Besides your rant is based in an imaginary reality. Like you really know Kaine's religious belief system so well to impugn it in that way.

Who said anti-religion bigots can't be as offensive as religious bigots?

[sourmilk]

142. "Who said anti-religion bigots can't be as offensive as religious bigots?'

Good call. Not me, that's for sure. Freedom of Belief is one of the few freedoms they haven't gotten around to taking from us, yet.

Let defendandprotect go ahead ignore everyone here. Do you honestly believe that someone ignorant of a simple term like "deja vu" could coherently contribute to this debate?

[Thothmes]

164. guess you would not vote for JFK, or Ted Kennedy.

[saltpoint]

204. I'd vote for any of the Kennedys, for anything, anyplace, anytime.

[puebloknot]

115. Separation of church and state. Remember that?

Obama should not be involved in redefining Christianity. We are not a theocracy -- not yet, anyway.

Religion does not belong in government. Good will and caring for the poor and sick do *not* depend on religion for their inspiration.

Let Catholics labor anonymously without being involved in the affairs of state.

[saltpoint]

118. I seem to recall Jefferson, who penned the Declaration, re-writing his

own Bible.

You can buy a copy of that work on eBay or Amazon or any of the on-line book companies.

That's the tilt I'm taking in my position. There's a load of difference in the theocratic tilt someone like Jim Dobson or Pat Robertson intends and the (E)nlightened approach Jefferson used in his work.

The Constitution sanctions both, of course. I prefer the Jefferson model.

[puebloknot]

174. "The Constitution sanctions both ...."

The Constitution says any person can have any belief they want, as long as acting on it does no harm to the people or the state.

The separation of church and state is a principle we toss out at our own peril.

It isn't the task of a President of the United States to undertake the re-education of a segment of the population with regard to his view of what constitutes the *best* view of Christianity. It is his duty to follow the Constitution. And that includes letting extremist elements know that they have the same rights the rest of us have in their personal religious practices, but they do not have the right to take over our democratic republic -- what's left of it.

I don't see Obama following my (the Constitution's) prescription.

[saltpoint]

177. Obama's very possibly considering Tim Kaine.

You object to that on religious grounds, grounds which do not exist as your exclusive claim.

The Founders give you and I and Tim Kaine as well the right to believe as we choose, worship where we please, and so forth.

There is no passage anywhere that says Catholic governors are excluded from the sanctioned privileges of citizenship, including the right to hold office.

No one is arguing that there should not be separation of Church and State. I would suggest that John Kennedy's Catholicism is not objectionable in retrospect, although it prompted vehement misgivings when he ran for the top job.

Would separation of Church and State have been dissolved, then, in Kennedy's example?

No.

[puebloknot]

191. You are putting words in my mouth. JFK in no way kowtowed ...

... to extremist religious elements, as the Bush administration has done.

Yes, some people were sure the Pope was going to move to D.C. if Kennedy was elected.

Catholics have *every* right to hold public office. They do not have a right to try to instill their personal religious beliefs into our governmental proceedings.

I object only to anyone's trying to "tear down the wall between church and state."

As a great example: If Mr. Kaine takes office and holds a personal objection to birth control, he does not have the right to deny that privilege to women who don't share his religious beliefs. John Kennedy's Catholicism did not have a chilling effect on the development and dispensing of birth control methods during his political life. His fellow Catholics did what they could to fight it, but JFK did not try to stop its development, as Bush has done everything in his (seized) power to stop stem cell research, based on his own personal "religious" beliefs.

I object to anyone who aspires to public office who does not have loyalty to the Constitution first and last -- and not to any religious philosophy.

[saltpoint]

193. I get your point but see no grounds for assuming that Tim Kaine's

religious profile equals his imposing those specific beliefs onto an Obama administration's legislative agenda.

Where does that come from?

[puebloknot]

201. My concern is that specific questions should be asked well in advance ...

... of Obama and his VP choice taking office about what their intentions are with regard to the right wing "Christian" agenda which has come close to destroying our democracy.

I'm not comfortable with Obama's pandering to megachurches. I have concerns about his adopting as VP someone who holds extremist views with regard to women's rights.

[saltpoint]

202. I'm not in agreement that kaine could be tagged as holding 'extremist'

views on women's rights, inasmuch as he carries a strong endorsement from Planned Parenthood, an organization I have supported for many decades now and which is assertively pro-woman.

[puebloknot]

214. NOW has another view of Kaine.

So, let's look at some of the men whose names are being bandied about. Gov. Kaine is reportedly very close with Obama and is supposedly the frontrunner at this time. This concerns me a great deal, as it should all feminists. Kaine, a former Catholic missionary, is on the record as having "a faith-based opposition to abortion," and having promised to enforce the (numerous) restrictions in Virginia law. We think Barack Obama should look for someone who trusts women to make these important decisions with their doctors and their families.

http://www.now.org/news/note/073108.html

Kaine says he will uphold the law, and the law is Roe v. Wade. But as always with people who hold personal religious objections to abortion, he does not say he will not undermine the law, as it exists, with new laws, given the chance.

I watched the interview with Kaine on Charley Rose last night. He seems an affable guy, with some good ideas I agree with. But he doesn't feel like a very strong person to be in line for the top job in the land, should Obama not be able to serve.

And he is doing, consistently, something that drives me crazy: I never heard him properly use an "ing" ending once in the whole interview. His comments were rife with "gonna," "thinkin'," "doin'," plannin'." Is he doing that to pander to parts of the country that don't have the best English skills? Is he doing it to make himself folksy and not threating to people who don't want to be "talked down to"? Or is he doing it because he does not have good English skills? He has an elaborate vocabulary. Why dumb it down with sloppy pronunciation?

I've even been critical of Hillary and Obama and his Michelle over this issue. They have advanced degrees. They're clearly capable of using the language properly. So why lapse into that folksy jargon in certain situations?

We need leadership in this country, and especially in the area of education. We have a dumbed-down populace, susceptible to every whim they see on television because they never learned critical thinking in school.

We want someone in the Office of the VP who presents a mature personna to the country, and to the world. People in Europe speak better English than some of our "folksy" political leaders.

Small thing? I think not. Language skills are important.

[nxylas]

135. I don't think separation of church and state means Catholics are ineligible for public office

Which is what your last sentence seems to imply.

[puebloknot]

173. No. My last sentence says that Catholics can do their religious work ...

... separately from their governmental work, if they choose to be in government.

John F. Kennedy is a sterling example of a Catholic who kept his personal religion out of his politics. He did not take it upon himself to redefine Christianity. He kept his personal religious affairs to himself. There were occasional pictures of JFK and family attending mass, but he was not proactively involved in Christian influence in the affairs of state.

[onenote]

206. show me how Kaine has not kept his personal religion out of politics

His personal religion does not support abortion, but he supports Roe v Wade and has stated that even if Roe v Wade was overturned, he'd veto legislation banning abortion.

His personal religion does not support the death penalty, but the citizens of the State of Virginia do and he has sworn to uphold the law.

If there is an instance of his religious beliefs infecting his politics its that his personal religous code teaches him to be tolerant of others and to seek to lift up those in need - and he has tried to achieve those ends as governor. If that bothers you, so be it.

[puebloknot]

208. I don't personally know a lot about Kaine. I'm concerned, in a general way ...

... about too much religion already in our government, and Obama's catering to megachurches and the religious right. So I'm concerned that *any* VP choice not be someone who will bring religion even more into the public square, rather than keeping it separated from the affairs of state.

[rox63]

125. The Kennedy family are all Catholics

Would you have barred them from holding public office? Get your head out of your ass, and note that there are good Catholics in public service.

[elocs]

13. Has Obama ever claimed that he would not pick somebody who seemed boring? n/t

[babylonsister]

17. I agree with one thing; Bayh is boring. I like Biden, and know next to

nothing about Kaine, though I've read good things about him.

[Thothmes]

167. I like Kaine, he is a good governor

but I do not find him very inspiring. JMO

[saltpoint]

10. Kick.

I am impressed with the idea of Kaine's service in Central America matched with Obama's community-building service in the Chicago area, and with the idea that service matters.

Sure is a different point of emphasis than the last 8 years of the Bush administration.

[Cha]

14. I didn't know Obama campaigned with Kaine in

2005 when he was running for Gov..so they've known each other awhile..

I'd rather aides didn't speak with anonymity..don't they want it to be a surprise too?

[dontforgetpoland]

16. "Each spoke on the condition of anonymity, citing the campaign's desire to keep the process secret.

Good job helping the campaign keep it a secret. :eyes:

[grantcart]

19. welcome to DU

It is always possible that they wanted it leaked out - seems to have come from different sources now.

If true then it will continue to drown McCain's media message out as everybody starts talking about this.

[Triana]

20. Isn't Kaine anti-choice and anti-gay marriage?

Excuse my ignorance. I haven't googled him yet and don't know much about the man but read some not-so-great stuff about him on DU yesterday or so.

[Barack_America]

23. Kaine is "philosophically pro-life", but has protected Roe v. Wade as Governor.

I imagine that he, like Obama, also opposes gay marriage. I'm unaware of his position on civil unions.

[defendandprotect]

29. LIEBERMAN DEJA VOUS ALL OVER AGAIN . . . ???

Come on, folks --- !!!

This has the makings of another Lieberman Trojan Horse ---

[Barack_America]

34. Not even close.

Kaine is an honorable man and a loyal Democrat.

[defendandprotect]

45. .....and isn't that what you thought of LIEBERMAN . . . ???

We have a Congress overflowing with Catholics now ---

this guy was a Catholic missionary . . .

that's heavy on religion ---

PLUS he's personall pro-life and anti-gay ---

that's a pretty sick load of stuff ---


I think we owe it to women to get a female on the ticket --- we don't need endless

men --- but I don't mean HRC or Pelosi!

[PM7nj]

100. "Congress is overflowing with Catholics." Yup... and they're some of our best members.

Dodd, Biden, Menendez, Durbin, Murray, Kennedy, Kerry, Reed, Leahy, Cantwell, etc are all Catholic and are some of our most liberal Senators.

[saltpoint]

131. Excellent point.

[defendandprotect]

152. Menendez is my Senator --- like him --- like Lautenberg as well ---

however, when religion is made the issue as it has been in our country for more almost
three decades . . . they I would recommend caution.

[grantcart]

87. Really then why is he praised by both the local Gay Democrat Caucus and

Planned Parenthood.

[Maven]

31. He's against civil unions also.

Family values, etc. :puke:

[Barack_America]

36. Most importantly, he's willing to take a back seat to Barack.

If Barack's platform includes civil unions, he will support it.

[Maven]

43. Oh, fucking bull.

And in eight years we might get a president who doesn't support a court decision now in support of equality that happened TEN YEARS AGO.

Barack's cred with GLBTs is shaky as it is. Anyone who asks us to overlook someone like Kaine or Nunn simply DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT about us or our rights. I wish they'd just admit it.

"Marriage between a man and a woman is the building block of the family and a keystone of our civil society. It has been so for centuries in societies around the world. I cannot agree with a court decision suddenly declaring that marriage must now be redefined to include unions between people of the same gender.

"Virginia defines marriage as being between a man and a woman and I strongly support that law. Regardless of the court ruling today in another state, I am confident that there is nothing in the Virginia or federal constitutions that would require Virginia to alter its longstanding policy about marriage." - Tim Kaine

[grantcart]

54. Same old shit which has been thoroughly explained in other threads and down thread

Kaine enjoys the support of both the Virginia GLBT community and planned parenthood.

The quotes taken are from a campaign that Kaine had against one of the worst gay bashing politicians in the entire country.



What the poster knows but ignores is the fact that the day that Kaine became Governor his first action was to issue an executive order extending civil rights protection by including 'sexual orientation' as a protected class.

In Virginia where homophobia runs very high Kaine fought both the Legislature and the Attorney General on the issue who attacked him for supporting Gay Rights Unconstitutionally.

[Maven]

58. And the same old "executive order! executive order! executive order!" apologist hack bullshit

you keep trotting out. Sorry you support a bigot for VP.

Of course GLBTs in VIRGINIA have to support the lesser of two great evils. It's like asking whether you'd like to be poked with a fork or a knife.

Next, why don't you trot out some black Republicans to tell us how great the GOP is on racial issues. :eyes:

[grantcart]

83. they didn't support him because he is the lesser of two evils but because

he has delivered on real issues.

But you are a complete condescending ass who pays no attention to how the people that are actually going through real civil rights struggles.

Your use of Kaine's statements were without any intellectual honesty because you take quotes from a debate where he is defending himself against one of the most rabid anti gay hate mongers in the country.




Here is how gay publications outside of Virginia call it. This is from the Washington DC Publication Washington Blade


http://www.washblade.com/2005/11-11/news/localnews/va-election.cfm

Gay groups cheer Va. elections

Gay groups across the political spectrum celebrated the results of Virginia’s Nov. 8 election. With the defeat of Republican gubernatorial candidate Jerry Kilgore, and three staunchly anti-gay candidates for the House of Delegates, many say they sense the beginning of the end of agenda-setting by social conservatives in Virginia politics.

Lt. Gov. Tim Kaine, a Democrat, solidly defeated Republican Jerry Kilgore 52 to 46 percent. Both candidates oppose gay marriage and civil unions, but Kaine backs workplace protection for gays and opposed the Marriage Affirmation Act, one of the country’s most strident laws stripping gay couples of legal protections.

“Jerry Kilgore ran a campaign that included gay bashing, immigrant bashing, and bashing Tim Kaine for his religious beliefs as a Catholic,” said Josh Israel, president of the Virginia Partisans Gay & Lesbian Democratic Club. “His defeat is a sign that the politics of division are not the way to go.”


This is how civil rights is advanced in the real world outside of urbane areas like NY and CA. And yes the Executive Order is significant because he promised he would do it and he did it the first hour on the job - even though it was wildly unpopular in a state that is known for its homophobia. Now you may want to argue the issues and you have a right to your opinion but your use of selecting a few quotes during a campaign and ignoring the reality of the man shouts intellectual dishonesty. You apparently think that you have a private monopoly on GLBT issues but as I have lost my niece whom I helped raise to AIDS and my brother in law was so terribly physically beaten because of this transgender nature that we had to personally care for him I find your attitude complete dishonest and unproductive. You apparently are of the opinion that every one should just be as bold as they are in New York when the reality is that some places are ten years behind and they are fighting for real basic rights.

And how courageous of all those Democratic politicians in New York in gaining the right for same sex marriage - very bold very courageous. The fact is that Kaine has risked more and achieved more.

It is completely typical of a person that uses the type of personal attack rather than fact or historical reality that you would also bring a charge of racial bigotry. Any day you want to compare bona fides on that score be my guest.

[Maven]

92. You're telling me about the struggle for equality?

WTF is really at stake for you? Personally? How many YEARS of your life have you spent working to not be discriminated against?

You're the condescending ass, and even worse, you're a condescending arrogant apologist ass who insults everyone's intelligence.

Quotes where he's DEFENDING himself??? Gimme a fuckin break. That's a man stating an AFFIRMATIVE position, not a defensive one.

You're a dishonest piece of work. Keep defending the indefensible.

[grantcart]

150. people in the thread will have to judge if you have a sincere interest

in advancing anything or whether or not this is simply a proxy attack on Senator Obama.


I contacted the Virginia Planned Parenthood and they were enthusiastic in their praise for Governor Kaine

Here is their statement: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6554931


It is clear that your narcisstic view of the world is defined in only radically egocentric terms but that really isn't the way that the world moves.

I have contacted the Virginia Gay Alliance and hope that they will issue an explicit statement on what they know to be facts on the issue. I neither prejudge nor condescend on what they say.


You on the other hand I have no regard for. And you are the condescending ass.


When presented with facts indicating he did enjoy the clear support of Gays (both Democrats and Republicans) in Virginia you dismissed them.

When presented with the fact that Gay media outside of Virginia was also pleased you responded with personal attacks.


You have exposed your own bitter narcissistic point of view to all that read it here. You cherry picked quotes against a Democratic politician so that you could try and score a personal point of view.


I could care less if Governor Kaine is picked for VP. I will expose however anybody who makes unfounded attacks on Governor Kaine as a proxy attack on Senator Obama.


As for personal involvement I spent 8 years in refugee camps and refugee work and resettled 420,000 refugees. You see it is a complex world with lots of issues. It actually doesn't boil down to a single front on a single issue. I don't know how you evaluate the price one pays when they lose someone the love to aids or they see someone the love continually attacked because they are cross gendered. I don't know why you would even want to try.

The nice thing about an anonymous chat room is all of that is left behind. Nobody knows a persons ethnic or sexual orientation just the facts, logic and intellecual honesty they bring.


It is clear to all who have read your replies that you have taken a particular position on Governor Kaine and have tried, unsuccessfully, to bully people on the simple charge that he is either homophobic or does not support gay rights. While he does not support same sex marriages (not surprising given the fact that Virginia is a home to a large percentage of homophobe politicians who have poisoned public discussion on the issue), the fact is that he has championed expanding civil rights for gays in Virginia.

He not only made it a high priority he made it his first priority.

A fact that you have responded to with condescention.

[Maven]

155. You are the narcissist whose only interest is validating your stupid fucking little theory

All so you can get pats on the back from strangers on the internet for having "called it." And then when it was pointed out that your pick was a social conservative DINO you attacked and truth-twisted to silence your critics. Pathetic. You really don't care about any of the issues you're talking about, so take your brownshirt finger-pointing and shove it up your hypocritical ass.

"I could care less if Governor Kaine is picked for VP."

Oh, yes you could. You're transparent. It's just sad you need the validation so badly.

You've taken one executive order he signed and turned him into a champion for GLBT rights (!). Considering his "family values" position on BOTH equal marriage AND civil unions of any kind I guess that puts his positions on equal rights at about 7-10 years behind most Dems today. I'm well aware of the political realities of running for office in Virginia. However, as Bluebear wrote so eloquently in another thread, the pandering of a politician in an archconservative state is not the barometer for my rights.

GLBTs in Virginia and the other 49 states in this country can make their own judgments about politicians without help from false friends like you.

[grantcart]

162. I don't care if Kane is appointed

The parlor games on guessing who is going to get picked is interesting fun but not something that anybody takes seriously.

When somebody tried to give me that "pat on the back" I made fun of both them and me http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6552046&mesg_id=6552098

You will notice that in this thread I have not made any reference to the earlier thread you did. I simply mentioned that someone had made the earlier observation and kept my previous thread out of it.

I am serious about stopping proxy attacts against Obama if Kaine is selected and it is clear that is exactly what you are doing.


Here is my proof that I have no dog in the Kaine fight

In two different threads people have made countering arguments about Kaine's environmental credentials

I asked both of them for more facts

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6555163&mesg_id=6555246

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6554535&mesg_id=6554772

Unlike you when it comes to bringing disparaging charges against a Democratic office holder I would like to see some actual facts than simply pass on rumors.


To sum up

1) Your charge that I have a personal interest in Kaine - proven false - I have sought people to contribute facts even if it hurts Kaine

2) Your charge that I seek to show that "I called it" - proven false - You had to provide the link to my previous post I deliberately preferred not to bring it up again because I don't think that it is actually relevant.

3) Your charges against Kaine on gay issues - He is not on the forefront of gay marriage - like many including Obama on the issue. As Governor he not only championed increasing civil rights for gays he made it his first action. Your point is partially true but the way that you have presented it is completely intellectually dishonest - almost Rovian in nature.

4)You have explicitly engaged in your own form of gay bashing by completely dismissing the opinions of gays in Virginia out of hand. I cited numerous examples of why they think he has been a leader on their issues and also how he is the first Governor of Virginia to openly embrace a Gay political group. But I cannot speak for them so I have sent them an email and will publish it as a special thread regardless of what they say.

(I did the same for Planned Parenthood in Virginia in this thread - they were very supportive of him and completely dispelled any charges that Kaine had pro life policies as Governor ) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6554931&mesg_id=6554931

You cannot really believe that you are convincing anyone with this exchange can you? You have resulted in exaggerations, personal attacks and misrepresentations. My interest is that we get a VP candidate that can move the polls in OH/PA/IN/VA/NC by 6-7 points. Kaine appears to be one of the ones that could do that.

I think that it is abundantly clear that your interest in attacking Kaine is simply a proxy attack against Obama - what else could possibly explain the tremendous amount of energy that you have put into attacking Kaine as homophobic when the facts show that he has put increasing civil rights of gays at the top of his agenda.

In addition to the executive order Kaine

a) took on the #1 homophobe of VA and defeated him
b) backs workplace protection for gays
c) opposed the Marriage Affirmative Act
d) supports gay adoptions according to VA law (which in VA excludes any couple not married hetro or homo from adopting)
e) publicly supported the Virginia Democratic Gay Alliance = Virginia Partisans - the first to do so publicly.


I will responde to one more of your outrageous replies before I move on.

[Maven]

184. It looks to me

more like your little "joke" was meant more like an ironic affirmation of your own prescience.

So no, I'm not buying that you were "making fun" of someone for patting you on the back.

The only "Rovian" here is the one trying to silence critics by invoking with-us-or-against us tactics equating criticizing you and your choices with aligning with the enemy. Once, again: utter hypocrite.

The only "Rovian" is the one using up-is-down big lie tactics to convince people that a politician who labels himself "pro-life" and came out against ANY kind of formal recognition of gay relationships is actually a pro-choice, pro-GLBT crusader. Utter hypocrite.

And now I'm going to put you on ignore, so that when I cast my vote for Sen. Obama in November I can maybe forget about some of the repugnant attack parrots who will be voting the same.

[saltpoint]

181. grantcart is one of the LEAST narcissitic people I've ever seen, if you

are quoting the popular notion of Narcissus.

There are other interpretations of the Narcissus myth. Among them is that Narcissus did not long gaze into the surface of the water to admire his own reflection but in fact to dissolve it and stare far deeper to the bottom of the body of water as a metaphor for self-searching and self-actualization.

It takes time and brains and a good, strong heart to be the Narcissus of that second interpretation, and as it happens, grantcart offrs posts in threads that suggest he has all three.

[saltpoint]

120. Ok, grantcart, now stop it. You're introducing cool-browed facts and

specific insights into the dialogue here.

That isn't fair!

[Barack_America]

55. I'm sorry.

But I just don't think that gay marriage/civil unions is going to be anywhere near the top of Obama's first-term agenda.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crowdance]

215. More's the pity. n/t

[defendandprotect]

46. Sounds like a fanatic --- a real 5 Century kind of guy . . . !

[onenote]

203. yeah -- supporting roe v wade and opposing criminalizing abortion is soo 5th Century

:sarcasm:

[Thothmes]

168. He also allows executions to occur in Virginia.

[onenote]

205. and obama supports the death penalty for certain crimes. What's your point?

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/12/11/fact_check_no_news_in_obamas_c.php

[Kber]

30. Found this from the VA Gov race

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/racetorichmond/2005/07/the_meaning_of.html

"I am pro-life," Kaine said when talking about his view on abortion.

Kaine says that while he has a personal, religious opposition to abortion, he is supportive of a women's right to choose.

[grantcart]

44. He is also against the death penalty but allowed executions to proceed

He did however fight to stop a huge expansion in its use in Virginia.

[defendandprotect]

48. Bleech . . .

[grantcart]

68. Kaine has been at the fore front of fighting for Gay rights in VA and is

supported there by the Gay community.


1) In the Lt Governor race he took on one of the most rabid gay bashing politicians in the country. The quotes seen are his shading towards the middle so that he could take down one of the great homophobic hate mongers in VA history.

2) He supports Gay adoption but VA law is very particular that while single individuals and married couples can adopt no couple that is not legally married can adopt - so he is in the odd position of supporting gay adoption if they are single. The people he was running against were against gay adoption and made it a major campaign attack against him. He is also against DOMA.

3) On his first day as Governor the first action he took was to expand by executive order civil rights protection to include 'sexual orientation'. Both the legislature and the Attorney General fought him on it and attacked him for trashing the constitution for helping gays.

4) He is the only Governor in the history of VA to openly embrace the gay community and shows up physically to help the local Democratic GLBT Alliance - called Partisan - raise its profile.

5) As for his personal opinion he is against abortion but has not done anything to reduce the mother's right to choose and in fact the Planned Parenthood of Virginia has praised him for successfully taking out all funding of abstinence only sex education.


he is also against the death penalty and has successfully stopped the state from expanding that to be even more aggressive than Texas in its application - but - he did not stop the executions that were up during his tenure as Governor.

[Dinger]

24. Biden, Bayh, and Kaine

Why am I not surprised? Or enthused? Do these prospective VP's actually excite you? Will any of them put Obama over the top? C'mon, be honest.

[Mass]

28. Biden is the only one in this list that I like., I just cannot see the other ones on the ticket.

Biden is not perfect, but he is a good campaigner and he knows what he is speaking about, and, compared to the three other ones, he is a flaming liberal.

[Dinger]

35. Being "not perfect," a "good campaignjer," and "knowing what he is speaking about,"

sound like pretty tepid endorsements to me. But I have to agree with you that compared to the other two, he's a flaming liberal.

[highplainsdem]

110. Biden is the only one on the list who isn't incredibly boring.

[Blondiegrrl]

210. Agreed. Biden is the only one of those three I like. n/t

[defendandprotect]

32. I think there is an obligation to put a female in the VP spot . . . NOT HRC . . .

but I do think Obama can find a female for whom we can all find enthusiasm . . .

Obviously NOT HRC and NOT Pelosi --- thank you, anyway!

[ErinBerin84]

33. I have no idea at this point who he will choose.

I mean, there have been some pretty random "leaks" to the press, maybe they are as clueless as we are.


Which VP picks would excite YOU?

[Dinger]

42. Here Ya Go,

Wesley Clark. That pretty much covers it for me.
And yes, he does EXCITE me, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

Edited to add: There might be others, but Clark is the first to come to mind.

[ErinBerin84]

47. word, that would be exciting to me too.

[defendandprotect]

51. Do you not feel an obligation to females to put a woman on the ticket . . . ?

NOT HRC AND NOT PELOSI --- !!!

[Dinger]

65. I Like Hillary, Can't Stand pelosi (nt)

[defendandprotect]

84. Hillary is DLC . . . do you want a DLC candidate . . . ???

Hillary is part of DLC leadership -- that's the corporate-wing of the Dem Party . . .

and the agenda is to move the party to the RIGHT ---

Is that what you want?

[mod mom]

141. I agree. DLCer Bill Clinton helped lay the groundwork for the Republican coup

with his Telecom Act of '95 (of course with the support of all the DLC lackeys).

DLCer Evan Bayh Co-Chaired the neocon pro-war Committee for the Liberation of Iraq:

Obama VP Prospect Evan Bayh Co-Chaired Committee For The Liberation Of Iraq With McCain

TPM | July 16, 2008 10:50 PM


Senator Evan Bayh's appearance today with Barack Obama at the "21st Century Threats" summit has stirred a lot of talk in the press about the possibility of him being on Obama's Veep short-list.

But we're not sure that's such a viable idea. That's because in 2003, Bayh was an honorary co-chair of the neocon pro-war Committee for the Liberation of Iraq -- a group he joined along with none other than John McCain and Joe Lieberman, according to a press release from during the run-up to the invasion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/16/obama-vp-prospect-evan-ba_n_113217.html

The DLC pushed the Free Trade agenda that enriched few folks at the top of the economic pyramid at the expense of the middle class.

NO DLC!

[defendandprotect]

153. Keep spreading the word-!! . . . Meanwhile, Bayh would be a huge mistake . . .

another TROJAN HORSE for the neo-cons . . .

a la Lieberman ---

This is a sad history of Clinton --- and unfortunately a lot of us don't want to recognize it ---

very destructive . . . !!!

And I'm really glad that HRC is out --- but I'd love to see a female in the VP slot ---

Elizabeth Holtzman would be GREAT!!!!

[wyldwolf]

144. So is Kaine. Biden is a New Democrat as well...

...as are most on Obama's list.

[defendandprotect]

154. We should avoid any DLC candidates --- huge mistake . . . !!!!

Meanwhile, I'd love to see Elizabeth Holtzman in the VP slot ---

[wyldwolf]

159. why?

[defendandprotect]

160. Did you see her testify re impeachment the other day . . . ?

That's one reason why ---

Do you mean why no DLC . . . ?

They are the corporate-sponsored wing of the Democratic party --- with an agenda to

move the party to the RIGHT. HRC is part of DLC leadership ---

Kaine is DLC ---

Bayh is DLC ---

[wyldwolf]

161. hanging out with the KOS kids too much?

The purpose of the DLC was to move the party BACK to the center after the landslide defeats of McGovern, Mondale, and Dukakis.

The DNC (that's D-N-C) founded the Democratic Business Council to get corporate money HALF A DECADE before the DLC was ever founded.

I prefer DLC policies as do many Dems.

[defendandprotect]

185. The DLC exists to move the party to the right . . .

and corporate money couldn't be more damaging to our elections and democracy ---

Corporations are interested in taking us backwards --- pre-New Deal days ---

and you're helping them?


Yeah, we're all "kids" and you're a grown-up?

[wyldwolf]

192. says the KOS kids

Corporations are interested in taking us backwards --- pre-New Deal days ---

Says the Kos kids. And Obama is helping them, too. See my sig quote? It's from Obama.

[defendandprotect]

194. And corporations haven't been overturning government regulations . . . ???

How do you think that we got the S&L theft and emberzzlements ---

or the current speculation in oil pricing --- ?

These are corporate ideals --


As for Clinton and the trade deals -- and overturning 60 years of welfare guarantees ---

doesn't look like that is working EXCEPT for job losses in America -- and to increase

our homeless, impoverished and hungry.


Companies moved jobs overseas .... "to harvest slave labor" ---

[wyldwolf]

196. "to harvest slave labor."

:eyes:

How do you think that we got the S&L theft and emberzzlements ---

or the current speculation in oil pricing --- ?

These are corporate ideals --

And this is the DLC's fault how?

As for Clinton and the trade deals -- and overturning 60 years of welfare guarantees ---

doesn't look like that is working EXCEPT for job losses in America -- and to increase

our homeless, impoverished and hungry.

FDR stated in a state of the Union address that "this business of relief must end."

January 1935 - Roosevelt proposes that welfare be replaced with a work program which Congress passed into law in April 1935.

JFK considered a welfare to work program.

Bobby Kennedy stated welfare should be a hand up, not a hand out.

1990 saw the lowest poverty rate in a generation and the lowest African American poverty rate ever.

So I'm still waiting to see you DLC theory plays out...

[defendandprotect]

197. So you're for overturning the New Deal completely . . .

And, by the way, I think we need some context for those quotes ---

Again --- if you want a corporate party, you have one in the Republicans ---

is that where you want to go?

[wyldwolf]

198. Changing the subject, avoiding the question. lol.

[defendandprotect]

199. This is what you consider a question . . . ???

So I'm still waiting to see you DLC theory plays out...

Also keep in mind that Nixon was seriously thinking of issuing regular checks to people
living below the poverty line ---

[wyldwolf]

200. you're the one trying to tie all these things to the DLC - unsuccessfully I'll add.

[Maven]

38. Two of them are pretty much conservatives, yet

if Obama chooses Bayh or Kaine the same people who were screaming about the possibility of Hillary as VP ("she's practically a Republican," they cried, despite her overwhelmingly liberal voting record) will be hailing them as the right choice.

It will be both funny and sad to watch.

[politicasista]

179. I only like Biden n/t

[defendandprotect]

26. " ...and his background as a Spanish-speaking former Catholic missionary "

I'd be looking at attempts --- LIKE LIEBERMAN AS VP -- to move a Trojan Horse in ---

I find these increasingly heavy religious backgrounds questionable . . .

and that also includes Obama's religious comments about his own faith ---


"Not all the saints are in churches, nor all the sinners outside of them ---"

[DarthDem]

27. No Kaine

Anti-choice, anti-gay. WRONG CALL.

[grantcart]

41. Kaine receives high marks from both planned parenthood and

Partisn the Virginia Democratic GLBT club Partisan.


His first action as Governor was to issue an executive order expanding the existing Civil Rights Act (which by coincidence was passed by his father in law) to include sexual orientation.

He is also the first Democratic Governor to public embrace Partisan. His campaign for Lt Governor defeated the number one gay basher in Virginia.


Planned Parenthood praises Kaine in Virginia for vetoing and taking out all of the funding for abstinence only education.

While his personal preference may be 'anti-choice' I have not been able to find anything to link his actions as Governor to that.


On a similar note he also is against the Death Penalty personally and fought to expand its use in VA, but did not use his personal feelings to stop the executions that took place under him.

[DarthDem]

49. You're Right

. . . but he ran on a "defense of marriage" platform in order to beat Sappy Gilmore. He has said he's "personally pro-life," but will uphold the law. Not exactly the guy I want potentially naming Supreme Court nominees.

[defendandprotect]

52. You're right . . . Kaine is WRONG for the job . . . !!!

[saltpoint]

127. Actually the Consitution is very specific in listing qualifing points.

Kaine meets all criteria.

[saltpoint]

39. While I don't know how serious the serious talks are, they sound

sufficiently serious to me.

Which means Kaine is on the short-list, and pretty far up high on it as well.

I think deservedly so, understandably so, and promisingly so.

Obama would not even be talking about the job with these guys if he didn't find immutable positives in them. While I'm not exactly a huge Evan Bayh fan, I can make a practical political case for his being on the ticket if I have to.

Biden is an easier argument for me because I've had a long-standing respect for him.

Kaine is a newer name for some on the national scene, but he's drawn the attention and respect from Barack Obama -- evidently from some time ago.

IMO the two men share the notion of service to others and may even find service to others -- whether in Central America or greater Chicago -- to be definitional to why they're in politics in the first place.

[defendandprotect]

53. Does no one here question why there are NO FEMALES on the list . . . ?????

Helloooooo . . . !!!

except . . . NO HRC AND NO PELOSI, please . . . !!!

[saltpoint]

57. Who exactly among females do you want on the list, or dare I even ask?

[defendandprotect]

61. Let's start with my original question . . . WHY is no one questioning

why there are no females on the list --- ????


Meanwhile, there are a number of females in Congress -- perhaps Barbara Boxer, for one ---

and female Governors who could be thought of ---

but, at least LET'S BEGIN WITH THINKING OF IT --- !!!

[saltpoint]

67. I love Barbara Boxer. Would that she were president, for that matter.

But she isn't.

The discussion centered on three names reportedly on Obama's short list.

Excuse me, but you were the one to turn it into a gender pissing contest.

[defendandprotect]

70. Again --- why wouldn't you question WHY there are no females on the list . . ????

Why does it seem so natural to you that there are 3 males on the list --- ???

Three males make it "a gender pissing contest" ... don't they?

What if there had been three females ONLY on the list ---

what would you be telling me now?

[saltpoint]

72. Near as I can tell, you don't need a uterus to be a vice president.

You don't need testicles or ovaries or any other of the reproductive components.

Swear to god.

Either may serve in the position and does so at the pleasure of the president.

That's how it works.

[defendandprotect]

75. OK . . . so where are the FEMALE names . . . and why does no one ask?????

[saltpoint]

78. Here are some female names for you.

Meryl Streep.

Grace Slick.

Annie Liebowitz.

Joan Didion.

Evita.

Cher.

Mary Hopkins.

Nina Simone.

Olympia, Queen of Macedon.

Betty Rubble.

Robyn, in Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

Clara Schumann

Margaret Chase Smith.

Louise Fletcher.

Sacajawea.

[defendandprotect]

82. Glad you're taking the issue seriously . . .

[saltpoint]

88. Come up WITH an issue and I'll be as serious as you like.

[defendandprotect]

90. What you're being is disingenuous . . .

but who'd notice . . . it's so well hidden!

Thanks, anyway ---

[saltpoint]

93. if you have a point, make it.

Otherwise you've posited a non-issue on gender grounds.

Completely unpersuasive.

No sale.

[Thothmes]

169. That is a question for the Presidential candidate.

[AnnieBW]

56. Any one of them would be good

Too bad you can only pick one!

Biden would be a great SecState if he doesn't make the cut.

[biscotti]

62. Absolutely No Bayh

[Muttocracy]

66. Didn't Obama say a while back if you're hearing rumors about someone

it's a good clue it's not them, i.e., they are keeping things very secret?

Or maybe that's just my hope that it's Schweitzer, Clark, or Biden.

[DFLforever]

77. Yeah, but I suspect this has been leaked.

The story is in too many places today. It's like a dry run.

[Muttocracy]

80. I been off da tubes most of today, so that could be it. nt

[defendandprotect]

71. I think we have to get some FEMALES on the list . . .

and I'm disappointed that the women's groups haven't put some names forward ---

at least that I'm aware of . . .

They should be pushing for it --- BUT NOT HRC ... AND NOT PELOSI!


For instance, I think that Barbar Boxer could bring great excitement to the ticket ---

and recapture those interested in a female president . . . at least in the wings!

[saltpoint]

74. How do you know there aren't any?

This list is unofficial. There's been no pronouncement of an official short list by the Obama campaign.

At all.

These talks have ensued following the attributes personally and politically these three candidates -- that's 'candidates' and not 'males' -- might represent to Obama's election odds and governability if he wins.

If you have some names you'd like to advance, be they male or female, why not start a thread and do so?

[defendandprotect]

79. What I know is that no one has asked where the FEMALE names are . . . !!!

There may be a list with 100 females on it --- and only 3 guys ---

Since we don't know, that's simply game playing --- an effort to confuse the issue.

It would also be another attempt to confuse the issue to not understand that these

are MALES being considered --- let's not ignore it, let's not try to hide it.

As I said I think Barbara Boxer would be a good choice ---

Evidently, there are a number of female governors who would be interesting ---

Again --- I'm disappointed that the feminist groups haven't put up names ---

I'd certainly be against HRC or Pelosi ---

[saltpoint]

91. Well, thank god you're on hand to ask that very question.

It's a no-point point, IMO.

This isn't a gender issue. It's a selection process.

There appear to be some males on the list; there may also be some females on the list.

I find your "objection" to be idiotic in that it asserts that Obama owes you a gender acknowledgment. IMO he most certainly does not.

[CTyankee]

124. I like Barbara Boxer but Obama has talked about a VP who would help him change

the way we do business in Washington.

Some liberal feminist friends of mine think it should be HRC if any female is considered because she was able to get the white male vote during the primaries and "we need white males" to win.

I think it is at least feasible that Obama wants to go full bore on his "change" theme and will get someone who compelements, not makes up for, so-called "deficits" he may have. But, what do I know...:shrug:

[PM7nj]

108. If it's going to be a woman, it will be Hillary.

Sorry.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saltpoint]

119. LOL!

[ErinBerin84]

128. well.

Marc Ambinder says that in addition to Bayd, Biden, and Kaine, Sebelius is also being vetted and seriously considered.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/07/sebelius_kaine_bayh_biden.php


Sebelius, Kaine, Bayh, Biden
29 Jul 2008 07:56 am

The following three Democrats are being vetted by Eric Holder and Caroline Kennedy and there is independent evidence that Obama is taking a serious look at them: Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, Gov. Tim Kaine, Sen. Evan Bayh.

Additionally, allies of Sen. Joe Biden say that he is under serious consideration, although he is not being subjected to the same level of vetting. The huffing and puffing over Kaine is the result of Kaine's allies getting excited...and confirming what has been reported here and elsewhere, which is that Kaine is being vetted and that Obama is seriously considering him. Based on discussions with high-level Obama aides, I do not get the impression that Obama has made up his mind yet. These aides do say that Obama is narrowing his choices.

snip

Sebelius and Kaine are both governing choices, not campaign choices. They're not going to match Obama's enthusiasm levels; they're not going to do all that well at the VP debates; they're not even going to solve political problems (even Kaine). But they are solid; they are centrist-in-style; they are Washington outsiders; they know how to balance budgets and deal with Republicans. As an historical analogy, think Clinton's choice of Gore.

Choosing Biden or Bayh would put in the White House strong and knowledgeable legislators who would be expected to do heavy lifting with allies and adversaries. both would do well at the debates; Biden is flashy and might upstage Obama, but he'd be the best sheer campaigner and his selection would bring a jolt of enthusiasm to the Democratic ticket (as if it needed more). The downside here is the same as the upside: the focus will be on the ticket and not on Obama, per se. Bayh and Biden would call attention to Obama's manifest lack of engagement with American foreign policy. And Biden, in particular, would face a prolonged period of press recapitulation. (And could Obama trust him to keep his mouth shut?)

[StevieM]

73. I think Kaine is the most likely choice, followed by Bayh with an outside shot for Wes Clark (eom)

[defendandprotect]

76. You seriously think you can put over a Pro-Life VP . . . an anti-GAY VP . . . ???

Let's get some FEMALES names on these lists ---

[defendandprotect]

89. with a background . . .. "as a Spanish-speaking former Catholic missionary " ...!!

[PM7nj]

102. That's a bad thing? nt

[defendandprotect]

157. You think we need former "missionaries" in the VP slot . . . ???

I see another LAYERING of religion in government a something to be wary about --

We've had this religious/Bible waving going on in America for three decades now ---

Let's upholdl Separation of Church & State -- it's a better idea.

[saltpoint]

182. Let's try to follow the spirit and letter of original posts first.

The OP does not argue at any point for dissolution of the separation of Church and State.

Despite your mad ravings to the contrary.

[saltpoint]

104. A bilingual-in-Spanish truehearted servant of others

would be an excellent choice for the vice presidency.

[Alcibiades]

94. Why settle?

We need a gay woman, or at least one who is beloved by the gay community. And she has to be pro-choice.

[defendandprotect]

97. Well, we all love ZELDA . . . . . !!! And she's working on health care in CA . . .

[StevieM]

99. I'm not trying to "put over" anyone. I'm just making predictions. My candidate in the primaries

was a female and I'll always believe that she is the best president we never had.

I don't like Obama, and the only reason I am voting for him is to save the Supreme Court, especially because of Roe v. Wade. So of course I want a pro-choice running-mate. I thought that Kaine supported Roe and was only personally pro-life.

Steve

[defendandprotect]

158. I'm not sure about Obama either --- but I'm waiting to see what he does . . .

I'd like less religion/"god" waving and more progressive ideas ---

and a list of VP's where everyone doesn't have a penis ---

Yeah, evidently Kaine has upheld Roe vs Wade in VA ---

However, remember Lieberman . . . who thought that was a bad idea at the time?

We've had three decades now of this religious campaigning and I think its dangerous for us.

Meanwhile, I'd love to see ELIZABETH HOLTZMAN as the VP --- now there's a ticket!!!

[grantcart]

166. and this is really what the objections about Kaine are

they are nothing less than a proxy fight against Obama

[defendandprotect]

186. I'm not clear on what you're saying . . . try again ---

However, Kaine is DLC ---

I'd be against any DLC candidate and I think Kaine and Bayh are definitely ---

Biden, slightly questionable ---

[saltpoint]

96. I got to be the third rec on this post and ask that others

consider adding their recs too.

It's informative, timely, provocative, interesting, and genuinely useful.

Hard to argue with a post like that.

[DFLforever]

107. Looks like Tim Kaine has been picked

The only question is when they'll announce it.

[babylonsister]

111. I just want to say that I'm so warm and toasty due to the boredom. HA!

DUers continue to rock, and mostly for the best reasons.

[book_worm]

113. Biden or Kaine would be fine with me and great additions to the ticket.

[Eurobabe]

114. Probably a distractor, will be someone else

All this is just to keep the media on its toes.

My personal choices are as follows, not that anyone should give a shit: Biden, Kaine, and LASTLY Bayh (puke)

I've met Tim Kaine, he does have a firey side to him. He just seems rather subdued on M$M. I guess we could do worse.

[grannie4peace]

116. no, no, no

i live in va. and i'm not fond of kaine. he doesn't have jim webb's ball and seems to me on the sleazy side. i'd rather have hillary. i respect her for her run for pres & her "straighter" talk as she grew.

[saltpoint]

121. "He doesn't have Jim Webb's ball" ?

Well, I would hope not. What would he do with it if he did? He has his own.

My guess is that there are 20 or so people who would be able and willing to serve an Obama administration. The candidate has the wind at his back and a lot of Democrats would be outstanding in his veep slot or for Cabinet positions, likely eager to serve, as it is an honor to be asked.

That includes Hillary Clinton and it includes Tim Kaine. I'd like it to include Brian Schweitzer, Kathleen Sebelius, Barbara Boxer, Bill Bradley, and Russ Feingold, among others, but I'm not expecting to get my way in politics. Once in a while I do, but not all that often.

Obama's a pragmatic soul. I think he knows what to ask Eric and Caroline to look for before they get to the final 4 or 5 names.

I'm taking a pretty scrutinous look at Tim Kaine and don't pick up the sleaze factor you reference at all. In fact, I'm getting exactly the opposite.

[nxylas]

143. But would Webb give him the sweat off his ball?

Damn, I want the hate mailbag back....

[saltpoint]

178. The remark threw me. On one hand people are arguing for a female

candidate to advance the feminist agenda, supposedly, and on the other they're counting testicles.

This observer is confused.

[defendandprotect]

187. No DLC'ers . . . they're dangerous for the party and democracy . . .

[SuperTrouper]

129. It will be Hillary Clinton, makes political sense.

[saltpoint]

130. It's possible that the Biden-Bayh-Kaine talk is a head fake and that

Clinton -- and others -- are actively and seriously being considered.

Or not.

Eric and Caroline will deliver the goods to Obama.

I think Senator Clinton's stock has fallen in the veepstakes. That's just my take. I think Kaine, Sebelius, and Richardson all have an inside track.

[mod mom]

139. BAYH CO-CHAIRED COMMITTEE FOR THE LIBERATION OF IRAQ W JOHN MCCAIN!

Obama VP Prospect Evan Bayh Co-Chaired Committee For The Liberation Of Iraq With McCain
stumble digg reddit del.ico.us news trust
TPM | July 16, 2008 10:50 PM



Senator Evan Bayh's appearance today with Barack Obama at the "21st Century Threats" summit has stirred a lot of talk in the press about the possibility of him being on Obama's Veep short-list.

But we're not sure that's such a viable idea. That's because in 2003, Bayh was an honorary co-chair of the neocon pro-war Committee for the Liberation of Iraq -- a group he joined along with none other than John McCain and Joe Lieberman, according to a press release from during the run-up to the invasion.

-SNIP
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/16/obama-vp-prospect-evan-ba_n_113217.html

THIS MUST BE BROUGHT UP WHENEVER HIS NAME COMES UP! Not to mention his DLC connection.

[saltpoint]

140. grantcart, I have already rec'd this and would do it again if the software

would let me.

Kaine, IMO, would be a potent choice because he represents a model of service to others.

Obama came under the spell of that model, that principle, early on in his life and I'm thinking he is interested in Kaine for perhaps that reason alone, and that Kaine's other multiple attributes just add to the argument.

And not least, it means McCain is going to have to dump some serious bucks into defending Virginia, and Kaine, plus Mark Warner's Senate race, is going to bring some serious Democrats to the polls there.

[Blackhatjack]

145. Here's my take (for what its worth!) ...

Bayh would be a mistake.
Biden brings too much baggage from past campaigns and gaffes.
Kaine won't bring complementary skills, knowledge and experience to ticket.
Clinton is the only woman with a chance of making the ticket, and her confrontational primary and former President husband will likely keep her off the ticket.
Clark is possible, but not likely.
Webb of Virginia is more likely than any of the above.
Edwards would be a tireless campaigner and his anti-poverty slant will play well given the shape the economy will be in by election day PLUS you get Elizabeth Edwards in the deal! However, his best position would our new Attorney General.
Richardson has foreign policy credentials but won't bring much else to the ticket.
Chris Dodd has not been mentioned, but he would bring a wealth of experience to the ticket.
Bob Graham would bring a lot of experience and Florida voters to the polls.
Gephardt would not bring in additional voters.
Sam Nunn of Georgia has been out of the public view for a while and his age would work against him.
Al Gore will never take the VP slot. He is doing exactly what he wants to do.
Chuck Hagel? Not a chance.
Michael Bloomberg? Nope. He would not accept a position where he must take orders from anyone.


So who is left?

Someone completely off the radar?

Right now the best choice IMHO would be(in no particular order):

Either Webb, Clark, Edwards or Dodd.

[ram2008]

146. None of those choices are possible

Webb already ruled himself out and said he would NOT serve if chosen, and doesn't want it.

Edwards has that love child scandal out which even though it may not be true will be a distraction. Also he lost in 2004.

Dodd is a Washington insider counter productive to Obama's message of change, he has baggage with the whole mortgage thing, sitting senator which would be replaced by a repub.

Clark is probably the most likely out of these but still improbable after the whole attacking McCain's military experience.

It's going to be Kaine or Sebelius, possibly Biden.

[Sparkly]

147. "the whole attacking McCain's military experience"

But he didn't attack McCain's military experience. That's a classic example of the rightwing and its media spinning a "nontroversy" into a supposed "gaffe." (They're doing this to Obama, too.)

The VP is supposed to be an "attack dog," anyway.

And, Obama can simply stand by his "rejecting" what Clark said -- although I think it was a mistake for him to reject it -- by saying he's independent. His recent remarks on VP qualifications included just that -- the independence to speak honestly even if Obama disagrees. So if that's true, I don't see a problem.

[ram2008]

148. yeah but

The average American isn't the brightest bulb in the bunch, I wouldn't be surprised if Clark's disapproval is higher than his approval now especially among independents.

The Obama campaign is really good at marketing their candidate(s) which is why I think they want someone who is relatively unknown with low or neutral ratings, so they can bring them up. Like Tim Kaine.

[Sparkly]

149. So the GOP won, again, and they will every time Dems give in and give up.

If Democrats throw in the towel every time the RNC/GOP/MSM lie about somebody, there'll be nobody worth a dime left.

Which is, parenthetically, what they want.

[defendandprotect]

188. Madelaine Albright . . . ??? Chris Dodd looks too much like McCain . ..

-- I also think that McCain is waiting for Obama to pick someone so they have a better
view of the competition before they pick ---

if they can find anyone to run with the Mc ---

I bet he'd like Swartzenegger --- but a tricky nationality problem there . . . at this moment!

[Douglas Carpenter]

151. for the sake of humanity, for the sake of the peace of world A.B.B. ANYBODY BUT BAYH!!

"- A.B.B. - ANYBODY BUT BAYH!!

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/bayh_as_veep_he_cochaired_wing.php

"In 2003, Bayh was an honorary co-chair of the neocon pro-war Committee for the Liberation of Iraq -- a group he joined along with none other than John McCain and Joe Lieberman, according to a press release from during the run-up to the invasion.

Check this out, from the group's press release on February 14th, 2003 (via Nexis):

The Committee for the Liberation of Iraq (CLI) is pleased to welcome Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Ind.) as an Honorary Co-Chairman. Bayh becomes the third U.S. Senator to join the committee after Sens. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.) announced their participation on January 28.

The Committee is a neo-con group that was formed to propagandize the country into war. It boasted such illustrious neocon members as Bill Kristol, former CIA director James Woolsey, and even McCain senior foreign policy adviser and Chalabi-bamboozler Randy Scheunemann, whom Josh has been blogging about.

Bayh would, to put it very charitably, muddle Obama's message. It's true that Bayh was said to have subsequently removed himself from the group. But Obama's campaign is partly about -- and rightly so -- the judgment he made, and others didn't, in the run-up to the invasion.

The McCain campaign and the Repubs would have a grand time mocking the choice. Indeed, the McCain camp is already trying to make an issue of Bayh's past."."

[phoenixriz]

175. Might I Add

that I am also looking at Kaine. He grew up in the Kansas City area which incorporates Kansas and Missouri. He attended Rockhurt Jesuit High School (they also have a college) one of the the top schools in the metro area. The Jesuits are the most progressive of all Catholic orders. They are highly educated, critical thinkers and also service oriented. It is a very respected institution and has it's counterpart in St. Louis University which is also Jesuit. He attended the University of Missouri in Columbia. Kansas City and St. Louis are very pro Democrat and are responsible for the Obama vote that made it a tie in Missouri vs Clinton. He might have an impact on bringing Missouri into the fold for us and possibly have an impact on Kansas although the northeast section it is already highly Democratic.

[defendandprotect]

189. We don't need any more religion in politics ---

he's an ex-Catholic missionary . . . !

He's philosophically anti-choice, though supports Roe vs Wade ---

he's anti-gay ...

This is 5th Century thinking ---

Jesuits "progressive" . . .???

They are completely authoritarian as the church is ---


This is dangerous --- lete's move on to someone else ---

[barack the house]

190. I don't feel he will pick this guy somehow.

[Marrah_G]

195. There is no reason to question or discuss. To do so undermines the campaign. GoBama!

[Phoonzang]

207. It kind of makes me sick, but Bayh is the best choice....

He was a governor, is a senator, has "experience", has foreign policy AND domestic policy cred, and is very popular in his state, and can appeal to uh..."hard working white people" in the Ohio/Michigan/Pennsylvania area.

I know he's DLC and way too conservative, but winning is the most important thing. I was all for Kaine, but thinking about it more....he just doesn't cut it. Besides being a governor, he has none of the benefits mentioned above. Biden has most of them, but he also has loose lips and I don't think he'll appeal to the people that (unfortunately) determine the election. Sebellius...I don't want to think about the backlash from Hillary voters. That and the whole lack of XP thing.

All that being said....hey, how about that Gov. Schweitzer? Isn't he a great guy? ;-)

[Blondiegrrl]

209. Please no. Kaine's pro-war rhetoric from a couple of years back will

be used against us. Plus he's anti-abortion. And, worst of all, he endorsed Douchebag Lieberman during the last presidential run.

No. Just ... no.

[onenote]

211. y'know, Robert Wexler -- huge advocate for impeachment -- he endorsed Joey in 2004 too

Want to run him out of the party?

And Kaine is avowedly pro-choice.

Facts. Find them. Use them. They can be your friends.

[Blondiegrrl]

212. I didn't say I wanted to run Kaine out of the party. He's fine as governor of Virginia.

I simply DON'T WANT HIM AS VP.

Oh, and FUCK YOU and your snide little "facts" comment.

[onenote]

213. I love you too.

And if you don't like Kaine's position on abortion, you probably don't like Obama's (or Hillary's for that matter) -- they're virtually indistinguishable.

[kurtboss]

216. I'd like him to go very liberal

Obama's taking on some rather nasty, powerful interests. A liberal VP would be a sort of insurance policy they don't try anything.

[Independent_Voice]

217. Graham, Richardson, Clark, Sebelius, Feingold, Schweitzer

These seem to be the potentials whose skeletons could be most easily managed, as long as Obama's team is willing to hash out a game plan for confronting any potential controversies before the announcement is made.