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George W. Bush was photographed wearing a ribbon he did not earn

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:21 AM
Original message
George W. Bush was photographed wearing a ribbon he did not earn


We can clearly see that in this picture, George W. Bush is wearing an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award and a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon, however, on line 24 of his ARG22 National Guard discharge form, George W. Bush has NO awards listed:



Now, here in another picture where his father is pinning lieutenant bars on his shoulder, George W. Bush is again wearing the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon:



So, in fairness we must give George W. Bush the benefit of the doubt here. Let's dig further and look at other records released by the Bush campaign team. Our next stop is a a Form AF11 dated May 16, 1971. You will note on this document Bush has already been promoted to First Lieutenant:



All that is listed in this document is the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon. The Air Force Outstanding Unit Award is not listed.

Our next stop is the "military biography" released by the Bush Campaign:




In this document, the claim is made that Bush was awarded the National Defense Service Medal and the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon, BUT NO MENTION OF THE AIR FORCE OUTSTANDING UNIT AWARD!!! This document was clearly prepared after Bush's service ended.

Exhaustive searches for any indication that any unit Bush served with was awarded the AFOUA have, to date, yielded nothing. The ONLY documents released by the Bush administration related to his service that make mention of any awards whatsoever have been included in this report.

The only conclusion that can be made is George W. Bush wore a ribbon he did not earn in the above photograph.

Webliography:

USA Today source of documents used in this report: http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-02-14-bush-docs.htm
Source for ARG22: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/2-Discharge.pdf
Source for AF11: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-4_2004_Personn...
Source for "military biography": http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-1_2004_Personn...
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. he did however earn
The Pabst Blue Ribbon for beer drinkin'
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
63. Time to roll out THIS classic:
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ruocal Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #63
155. Got here through a link at Buzzflash
The word is spreading. I found this through a link at Buzzflash (http://www.buzzflash.com /). I am using the "side by side" comparison as my 'background'--pictures are worth a thousand words!

Unless that ribbon on his chest is one he got for good conduct at the dentist's office in Alabama, he didn't earn it!

On that topic: Has anyone brought up the fact that rich boy's (aka: "Fortunate Son")only documented appearance in Alabama was when he went to the dentist--on the taxpayers' dime? I thought republicans were against entitlements.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #63
167. LOLL
thats a good one, I never saw that before, should be on the front page
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chelsea0011 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. Nice job. CNN, Fauz, ABC, NBC,CBS, MSNBC, and CNBC are on it
Right?
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. LINK TO EASY ACCESS TO MEDIA CONTACTS --
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. Yeah right.
:eyes:

LOL
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
32. If bush's lips are moving, then he is lying.
I am absolutely convinced of it. That man is such an ASS.

Thanks for posting this.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. Is this your original work, Walt?
If so, I'd love to buy you a beer some day.

And, may I use it?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Yep, started out as an attempt to compare Kerry's awards to *'s
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 08:32 AM by Walt Starr
Unfortunately for *, the AFOUA is not documented anywhere in the record.

Feel free to use, dispense, copy, whatever!

:evilgrin:

All that's important is that it gets out.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. Walt, you and DoYouEverWonder are my heroes.
Great work on this.

When you win a Pulitzer, I'm gonna tell everybody that I knew you when!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. This is nothing more than a bit of Googling
and noticing that somethng just didn't jive between the picture and the record.

It all basically started out as an attempt to compare Kerry's awards to Bush's. I started by looking at National Guard medals because those are almost no-brainers and are given automatically in most cases.

Nothing.

Looked at the ANG22.

Nothing.

I knew I had seen pictures of * with ribbons, found some, and then was surprised to see the AFOUA. The SAEMR is almost a given. You really ahve to be a lousy shot to not earn that ribbon, but the AFOUA appeared in none of the documentation I had seen. My next step was to read every last bit of documentation that Bush has released. Low and behold, the AFOUA appeared in not a single document!

So basically, discovering this was an accident.

:)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
130. Way to go, Walt!
You ol' sleuth, you!

Did you see a red flag when you saw the picture of bush with "medals" on his chest? }(

Man, I hope this gets some National play..maybe moveon.org could move on it.

Since Kerry needs to be above the fray.

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #130
141. Michael Moore Moved on it!!
Thank you, Michael! We love you, too!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #130
145. The red flag I saw was an award that appeared in no documentation
Every last award you see on Kery's chest is 100% documented in teh released DD214 and DD215.

There is a SAEMR on bush NGB22 when he was released from enlisted service to be commissioned. There are *NO* other awards listed on *ANY* official document released by Bush, not even the National Defense Service Medal they *claimed* he earned in the dubious *military biography*.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. The Plot is thickening!
I just got here from a democrats.com link...the magic of the internet!

Thank you, Bob Fertis!
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. some problems with your theory
1. in the army, unit awards are things you wear while you are with a particular unit, but they arent "your" awards. So for example, when i was assigned to the unit I was in previously, I wore the Presidential Unit Citation because my unit had won it previously, but when I transferred to trial defense down the hall, I took them off because I was not with that unit anymomre. Assuming the Air Force operates the same, having an outstanding unit award on his uniform but not in his record would in fact be normal, provided he was in that unit and it was authorized said award.

2. My DD 214 was woefully wrong also, it didnt have my ARCOM that I earned as a PCS award, it didnt have my AAM for winning Brigade soldier of the year, it didnt have my good conduct medal, it didnt even have that I went to BNCOC. DD 214's are notoriously wrong.

As horrible a person as i think the current president is, i dont think this line of attack is going to be very effective given the above, but I reserve the right to be wrong lol
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. AFOUA Requirements (This is an Air Force award, not an Army award)
Sorry, but Army regs don't cut it with an Air force award. This award can even be issued with a Bronze Combat "V" device!

Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
In recognition of exceptionally meritorious service or outstanding achievement of a numbered unit whether in peacetime or wartime.


The following site will replace lost AFOUA's under the requirements listed:

http://www.amervets.com/replacement/afoua.htm#irq

Issue Requirements
You must submit the following:

An unaltered photocopy of your DD-214 or other military issued document clearly displaying your award of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award.


Contact The War Library if you do not have a DD-214: 1-310-532-0634.
Or, obtain a copy of your DD-214 from your military file.


George W. Bush wore a ribbon he DID NOT EARN!


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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. um, so can army unit citations
and since the air force came from the army (and since i also spent two years at purdue in AFROTC) there is likely little difference on how the two services do these types of awards.

There are two separate groups you are confusing:

Group one was in the unit when the award was given, this group IS allowed to continue wearing the award even when not part of the unit anymore

Group two comes in after the award was given, usually decades later, this group would wear the award ONLY when part of the unit, after they left, they wouldnt wear it any longer.

I highly doubt this is a valid thing to hit him with, wish it were, but I would do a little more fact checking with this one.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Not the AFOUA.
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 09:07 AM by Walt Starr
Only the Army Presidential Unit Citation, Valorous Unit Award, Meritorious Unit Commendation, and Superior Unit Award are authorized for temporary wear. The Korean Presidential Unit Citation is also authorized for temporary wear for members of the 2nd Infantry Division.

The AFOUA can ONLY be worn if you are in the unit during the period covered by the unit citation. There is an order published and it is in the file of each member who receives the award.

This order is NOT in Bush's record, nor does the AFOUA appear on ANY document including the "military biography" provided by the Bush campaign.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. sorry but i dont know of ANY
unit award that is only worn if you were in the unit during the period covered by the unit citation, were are you getting this from? Dont cite to some veterans group, you have to have Air Force Regs on this before you try to present this as an issue.

its a UNIT award, so I see no reason why only members of the unit who were there when the unit was awarded it would be the only ones authorized to EVER wear it. I can see why they would be the only ones authorized to wear it AFTER they retired or left the unit (thus why the Vets want to see your 214 with it specifically listed on there).

There is nothing that makes the AFOUA any different from the PUC, VUA or any of the other unit commendations. Why would it be considered differently, it isnt even the highest Air Force Award from what i can tell.

You are going to need a lot more proof than this I am afraid, I want to buy it, but it seems to me like its just like any other unit award, you wear when you are part of the unit and then take it off when you arent, or if you were there when the unit won it you get to keep it.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Thank your for the requiring I cite the regulation!
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 10:20 AM by Walt Starr
AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2803; Chapter 4; Paragraph 4.2

Individual Entitlement. All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.

Merely being in the unit during the period covered by the award is not enough in the Air Force. According to the regulations, one must have contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit in order to qualify, which means an order is published listing all members of the unit qualified to wear the award.

Bush's name appears on no such order.

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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. thanks n/t
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. No problem, THIS IS FUN!
I love being able to shoot holes in the arguments against the contention that Bush wore a ribbon he did not earn! As shown in the regulation, even unit awards in the Air Force, MUST BE EARNED BY THE INDIVIDUAL if the individual is to be authorized to wear the ribbon!
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
83. you quoted
individual entitlement, that means can they wear it as an individual, not as a member of a unit. the same rule applies to all unit awards, you can only wear it permanently (i.e. individually entitled to it) if you were a member of the unit when that award was given.

You are picking and choosing what you want to see.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Bzzzzzt, WRONG ANSWER
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 02:31 PM by Walt Starr
Read the entire Chapter 4 of AFI 36-2803. The Air Force makes NO PROVISIONS WHATSOEVER FOR WEARING A UNIT AWARD TEMPORARILY!

This is a practice of the United States Army, not the United States Air Force.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. There is one instance in which ANY award is worn temporarily in the AF
The AF Recruiter ribbon is worn temporarily at thirty days into recruitment duty. It becomes permanent after three years recruiting.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. Do you have a copy of the regulation
from the 70's?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #94
106. No I don't
I've found that alterations to the regulations are generally made when the uniform is significantly altered to show how to wear decorations after a uniform change, for corrections to clerical errors, or for the addition of awards or badges.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. So was the cited regulation enough for you?
Hello?

Bueller? Bueller?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. Just to humor you as well, here are pertinent sections from AR 670-1
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 11:48 AM by Walt Starr
The Army does not allow the AFOUA for temporary wear, either.

AR 670-1, Chapter 29, Table 29.1:




In fact, as you will notice from the regulations, MOST unit awards are for permanent wear only to those members of the unit during the time covered by the citation.
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. AR 670-1 addresses mainly active duty awards.
In other words, the conventional kind. I don't know if we have any Air Guardsmen or AF Reservists here, but there are also ribbons that pertain to those branches exclusively, I am willing to assume that unit citations that are only awarded to reserve units are worn under much the same circumstances as active component awards. Note that the temporary nature of the AFOUA makes Bush's chest even more sparsely decorated than it already is.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. In the Guard and Reserves, the host service regulations apply
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 12:56 PM by Walt Starr
The only awards the National Guard may cover with regulations are specific National Guard awards, (Texas Faithful Service Medal comes to mind).

Where the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award is concerned, the only authority is the Air Force regulations covering it as Air Force National Guardsmen are wearing the Air Force uniform.

If somebody leaves one branch and enters another, the new branch's regulations regarding the wearing of the ribbon apply, however, it applies only as regards placement. If you leave the Air force to join the Navy, you get a DD214 that will list the award and you may wear the award on your Navy uniform, but only wihtin the regulations of the Navy.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
78. if the only authority
is the Air Force Reg, why are you quoting AR 670-1 which is an Army Reg??
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #78
84. I quoted the AFI 36-2803 above! That's the reg. covering the AFOUA.
I quoted the AR 670-1 as it had the table for awards that are worn temporarily in the Army, just to humor you. The Air Force has no such regulations for the temporary wearing of Unit Awards.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
82. think about this for a second ok...
you are citing the ARMY Regulation.

Check all the ones that arent for temporary wear, they are ALL from NONARMY services.

The only time an Army member, the only one who would fall under AR 670-1, would have any of those other ribbons would be if he/she earned them with the unit.

Otherwise, they wouldnt be authorized for temporary wear because they wouldnt be part of another services unit while in the Army.

You are using Army Regs to prove that an Air Force unit citation in the Air Force is temporary...you are mixing apples and oranges.

You aren't poking holes in anything, you havent proven anything yet.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Read post #24. I quoted the *AIR FORCE* regulation AFI 36-2803
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 02:33 PM by Walt Starr
The Air Force *DOES NOT ALLOW THE WEARING OF UNIT AWARDS TEMPORARILY*. You will find nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in ANY Air Force regulation regarding the temporary wearing of Unit Awards.

I quoted the *Army* regulation as that is the *ONLY* place you will find such regulations.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. Do we know for certain that the unit did not win the award while
shrub was a member?

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #93
105. No, we don't
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 03:53 PM by Walt Starr
But if it did, there are several documents that shrub released whe the award should eb present. It is not.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #85
95. you have shown
absolutely nothing that says that temporary wear is unauthorized, you havent shown ANYTHING discussing temporary wear period vis a vis the air force, all you have shown is the Army's regs and I have told you why that is apples and oranges.

The Army is NOT the only service that authorizes temporary wear.

You are wrong, you can be stubborn and keep on this all you want, but at the end of the day, you are going to turn out to be wrong because after ten years in the military and two in air force ROTC, I can tell you that i have a decent understanding of how unit awards work, that the most likely explanation is that it was a temporary wearing of a unit citation because he belonged to the unit...and until you come up with something from the air force regs that says temporary wear is unauthorized, you havent proved anything.

Tell ya what, go ahead and link to where you are pulling this regulation from.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #95
108. You're asking me to prove a negative
There are *NO* instances where temporary wear of Unit Awards are authorized under AFI 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND
DECORATIONS PROGRAM, or AFI 36-2903, DRESS AND PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF
AIR FORCE PERSONNEL.

It is simply not in any Air Force regulation. The Air force does not make any provisions for wearing unit awards *temporarily*.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #95
134. re: qazplm
Don't bother with this stuff. Just another vanity thread.
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Blue Wally Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:50 PM
Original message
Walt
That is the current wording of the regulation. Might not the regulation have been different earlier?? Awards change as do criteria for wear. When I came in the Army, the Meritorious Unit Commendation was represnted by an embroidered wreath on the lower sleeve of the blouse with numerals for subsequent awards in the center of the wreath (as I changed units, my wife kept having to sew it on and take it off of my green and TW blouses. Later the embroidered wreath was changed to a red ribbon with a metal border with subsequent awards denoted by oak leaf clusters. Unless you go to the archives and determine which regulation was in effect then, you can't tell if it was authorized or not. Hell, the TXANG might have a local regulation, requiring all personnel to wear it. If you look at pictures of me from Vietnam, I am wearing green "combat leaders tabs" on my uniform which were not authorized for my type of unit. The battalion commander decided we were in a combat zone and told all of the company commanders and platoon leaders to wear them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
128. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
196. That's my experience also
Done Air Force, done Army. I agree with you.
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. Since you are researching ...
check out if the Outstanding Unit Award was handed out for just being assign to the unit and therefore not an earn ribbon. I wore three ribbons on my right-side in the Army that were Unit Earned Citations; when I left the unit, I turned them in and they were never on my DD214 - don't know what the AF does.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. This is different from those army awards
This is an award that is earned when the Unit is awarded, and is worn forever more after that.

Don't believe me? Go look up biographies on Air Force Generals. Nearly every Air Force General will have this award from some unit they were a part of when the unit earned the award.

For those complaining about the DD214, look at Kerry's. Every last Unit award he earned is on either his DD214 or his DD215.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
137. My husband's DD-214 is complete, as well
he made sure of it before he got out so there'd be no question later.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. Good catch, Walt. I hope this gets media coverage.

It seems logical to me that he'd have gotten those "automatic" medals you wrote about in the other thread IF he'd served all his time. That seems to explain why he was still a Lt. when he was discharged, too.

I just had a vision that somewhere J. Hatfield, the author of "Fortunate Son," is getting a lot of laughs out of all the investigations of Bush*.
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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. Walt, my memory is hazy ...
but I believe all Air Force members back in the '80s had to attempt to qualify for the Marksman Ribbon. It's one of those things AF guys do, like running the mile and a half each year (yeah, they were a bunch of groaners; you should've heard them all gripe about having to run that mile and a half). Anybody who shoots above a certain percentage (90? 95?) gets the small-arms marksman qualifying ribbon. I'm pretty sure the ex had one for his dress blues. What I don't know is, since everybody is required to do marksmanship qualification shooting, if that ribbon shows up on their 'papers.' It may be that since it's required, and since it's sort of a 'gimme' for anybody who shoots well enough, they don't mark it, I don't know.

Any Air Force vets out there who know whether they put that small-arms expert ribbon on the paperwork? I sure don't remember ever looking at my ex's paperwork, so I couldn't say. Not saying you don't have anything there, just that you might want to tread cautiously about that one.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I don't question the SAEMR, Bush did not earn the AFOUA
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 08:35 AM by Walt Starr
The AFOUA is listed NOWEHERE in his record, yet he is clearly wearing the award in the above photo. The SAEMR is listed in his form AF11 and in the "military biography".
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
15. It appears that BOGUS DECORATIONS ARE A TRADITION WITH GENERATIONS OF
BUSHES.

In l9?? during WWI, it was reported that Prescott Sheldon Bush (W's grandfather, Poppy's father) had received the Cross of the Legion of Honor, the Victoria Cross, and the Distinguished Service Cross "for a deed of rare valor and great military importance"

YET,

"Four weeks after the news of the decorated Prescott Sheldon Bush appeared in the newspaper, the following Notice appeared:

Editor State Journal:
A cable received from my son, Prescott S. Bush, brings word that he has not been decorated, as published in the papers a month ago. He feels dreadfully troubled that a letter, written in a spirit of fun, should have been misinterpreted. He says he is no hero and asks me to make explanations. I will appreciate your kindness in publishing this letter....

Flora Sheldon Bush.

Columbus,"

Prescott Bush was discharged in mid-1919, and returned for a short time to Columbus, Ohio. But his humiliation in his home town was so intense that he could no longer live there. The "war hero" story was henceforth not spoken of in his presence.

(The above is from Webster Tarpley's BUSH THE UNAUTHORIZED BIOGRAPHY)

AND THEN ....

THERE IS THE STORY TOLD BY POPPY OF HIS HEROIC BAILING OUT OF A PLANE ENGULFED IN SMOKE AND FIRE for which he received a medal as well and is considered a heroe ... except that there are reports that he doctored up his own story and that he actually bailed out (parachuted out) of a plane which was putting out a thin line of smoke, which he could have landed on the waters of Chichi Jima and at least attempted to rescue the two crewmen in the plane with him. The implication is that like a coward he bailed out, swimmed to the life raft and never once looked back to the two crewmen his actions sentenced to a sure death.

and now ... here is George being pinned with a ribbon he did not earn!
Just like the presidencies neither he nor his father earned and both of which they attained through trickery. GHWB to the Vice-Presidency in l980 through inflicting the OCTOBER SURPRISE ON JIMMY CARTER, and in l988 through the mud and slime he and his Lee Atwater inflicted on MICHAEL DUKAKIS ... and Junior, we all know too well, through the mafiosi arm of his brother Jeb and Jeb's equally mafiosi secretary of state Katherine Harris and their father's connections to an equally dishonorable Supreme Court.

And now out of this Journey full of mud and lies and trickery THAT HAS BEEN THE BUSHES JOURNEY FOR A WHOLE HOST OF GENERATIONS, they want to (and may be succeeding) in sliming Kerry while portraying themselves (as they have done time and time again) as the untarnished virtuosi Bush Family. That which they do not have, they do not strive to attain. They just confer it upon themselves.


:thumbsdown:
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. And there are those troubling allegations...
That George H W Bush strafed Japanese fishermen who were in lifeboats during WW-II.
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. These low life bushes! How they got to be in such a powerful place in life
is ..... beyond: aggggggghhhhhhhh! I can't say it any other way. :-)
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
79. Links? and Links!!
Do you have any links handy for the GWHBush stuff? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to have them, and others reading might too.

Here is an excellent link re the October Surprise:

Bush's Impending Watergate
By Harvey Wasserman
originally published on May 23, 1991

http://old.valleyadvocate.com/25th/archives/bushs_water...

George Bush should be impeached. Whether he will be impeached depends on the intestinal fortitude of Congress. But the evidence is clearly sufficient to begin proceedings.

The grounds for impeachment rest in the now-familiar circumstances around the 1980 Iranian hostage crisis. The story has circulated since the mid 1980s, but in recent weeks has gained startling new confirmation.

The circumstances are worth repeating: On November 4, 1979, radical Iranian students seized some 55 American citizens and began a crisis that lasted until the moment Ronald Reagan was inaugurated as president 444 days later.

Future historians may well blame President Jimmy Carter for the inception of the crisis. He ignored warnings that it could happen and stumbled badly once it began. Some may also wonder if he exploited the situation to deflect a challenge to his renomination from Sen. Edward Kennedy.

But by October of 1980, one thing was clear: If the hostages were released prior to the election, Carter would be re-elected. If not, Ronald Reagan would win. All major polls -- including one by the primary Republican pollster, Richard Wirthlin -- showed a 10 percent swing on just that issue.

-- much more --

Another:
May/June 1991, Page 11
Special Report
Reprise of the October Surprise: Is the Worst Surprise Still to Come?
By Richard H. Curtiss
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0591/910501...




"Congress will not formally investigate charges that the Reagan campaign stole the election in 1980, in large part because Israel's supporters on Capitol Hill do not want to put the spotlight on Israel's role, which during that period sold weapons to Iran in blatant disregard of President Carter."

Prediction by Newsweek correspondent Eleanor Clift, on the NBC television talk show The McLaughlin Group, May 12, 1991

For regular readers of this magazine, there is little that is new in the current flurry of American media reports on the "October Surprise" of 1980, other than the fact that Gary Sick, a retired career Navy officer and a National Security Council Middle East adviser in President Jimmy Carter's White House, now is writing a book on the subject. His article in the April 15 New York Times, and a one-hour sympathetic examination of the evidence on PBS's "Front Line, " shown nationwide on April 16, left little doubt among open-minded readers and viewers that Ronald Reagan campaign officials promised arms and money to Iran to delay release of 52 American hostages until after the Nov. 4, 1980 presidential election.

-- more --

A few additional links (and, of course, google would probably turn up hundreds more):
Archive: October Surprise 'X-Files' Series (several articles)
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/xfile.html



Who is Jim Moore? Part Seven
CAMPAIGN 1980 & THE IRAN-CONTRA AFFAIR
2002 by Jim Moore
(John Anderson, R. Secord, Ollie North -- quoting the above article)
http://www.geocities.com/omegareport/Authors/04-Moore-g...


INSLAW, OCtober Surprise, many other articles by Henry V. Martin
http://www.american-buddha.com/napa.sentinel.htm#THE%20...


ex-President Carter's Operation Desert Claw sabotaged?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
"Only Christian soldier is a good soldier" by Lt. Gen (R) James Vaught
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
22. Send that directly to David Hackworth.
The rest of the media will ignore it but he won't.
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bigmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Truer words were never spoken.
Hear! Hear! Send it to Hackworth!
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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. Not only will Hackworth not ignore it,
he'll be able to determine immediately if your theory is sound, and his judgement will be credible.
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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. here's his email
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Thanks, I sent him a link
I asked him if he would please look at this thread.
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MallRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
26. If this is true, then this is the ultimate indignity to our Armed Forces.
So much so, that when Admiral Jeremy Boorda, Chief of US Naval Operations, was presented with evidence that he wore medals that he had not earned, he committed suicide in disgrace.

He was posthumously declared eligible to wear the "valor" decorations, but that was two years later.

For more info, check out the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Michael_Boorda

Walt, if you're right, then this is far bigger deal than the "he said, she said" bullshit that Kerry is fending off right now. Granted, these are low-level medals from a National Guard post, but regardless, it is an affront of the highest order to wear a medal you haven't earned.

-MR
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Well, some further evidence
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 10:26 AM by Walt Starr
Bush served in the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron which is a subordinate organization of the 147th Fighter Intercept Group. Now, the 147th earned the AFOUA in 1966, but Bush did not join the guard until 1968.

And even if the 147th earned the AFOUA during the period of Bush's service, neither he nor the 111th automatically get the award.

AFI36-2803 Chapter 4 covers this. Paragraph 4.2 clearly shows individual entitlement:

Individual Entitlement. All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.

...and paragraph 4.5 covers subordinate organizations:

4.5. Units Sharing in the AFOUA or AFOEA:
4.5.1. Subordinate activities do not automatically share in an award with the parent unit or organization. Organizations can share their award only with like subordinate organizations (i.e., for a numbered parent organization, only numbered subordinate units may share; for an unnumbered parent organization, only unnumbered subordinate units may share unless otherwise specified in this AFI).
4.5.2. Identify each sharing subordinate activity in the parent organization nomination.
4.5.3. Host organizations may identify tenant units to share in the award providing the tenant units parent major commands concur.

What all this means is, if Bush was authorized to wear this ribbon, orders would have been cut and would appear in his personnel record. Any such record is absent from the record Bush has produced.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
30. Hey Walt, dKos picked up on this thread and links back to DU!
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
31. I'm still trying to figure out WHY he was promoted to 1st. Lt.??? N/T
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
33. 70230, enlisted. question?
did he have to enlist cause a draft was imminent until he got placed in national guard. havent heard what is with this yet. he was enlisted and was apr administrative specialist?

whats up with that. has anyone heard the story in this
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Tims Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
115. The Draft Lottery
was instituded by Nixon, so it could not have come before 1969. In fact I remember my senior year in High School (69-70) was the first year of the Lottery. This means that so long as Dubya was of draft age in 1968 (18-27) he could have been called at any time.

Once the Lottery was established, you only had to worry about being drafted the year you turned 19. If your number was low, you would probably get called. Most people I knew who had low numbers went ahead an enlisted so that at least they had some choice into what branch they would serve and had more say regarding the type of duty they would be assigned even though it meant a four year stint rather than two for the draftee. If you waited for the draft, you were pretty much guaranteed a front row seat on the front line. Everyone I know tried the Reserve first (all were turned down), then the Coast Guard (one friend got in), then the Navy and Air Force, which accepted most of them unless they where way low on the standard tests they gave.

Prior to 69, the draft boards still had all the control on who would or wouldn't get a draft notice. It was pretty well known that if your family had pull with a congressman, your name could pretty much be guaranteed not to come up or you could get a deferment. Deferments pretty much went away when the lottery came in.

I think Dubya would have preferred not to have served at all, but Poppy insisted and secured him the position in the champaign unit in the Guard rather than an under the table deal to keep the draft from getting him.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #115
228. I believe you are mistaken on the timeline.
The lottery was instituted when I first got to college in 1970-71, not 1969-70.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
34. if the medal is legit...
...then Bush should be able to immediately clear it up.

Right?

The question needs to be asked.

Has anyone contacted Helen Thomas?
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
35. OMG, Walt
Look at this page:

http://www.usndemvet.com/blog/archives/000656.html

Prescott Sheldon Bush was so humiliated by the false stories of his made-up medals that he had to move away from his home town when he returned home.

This web site has all the dope on it.

This story is huge when the two Bushes are combined. I just sent the info to Keith Olbermann.
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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Kick
This thread keeps getting more interesting
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jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
255. GWB never mentions his Ohio family roots when campaigning in OH
now you don't have to wonder why
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. My Heartiest Congratulations, Mr. Starr!
You have performed a splendid service here.

This research ought to be dissemminated far and wide; sent to all Democratic campaign organizations and independent groups, and to all news organizations, and not just once, either, but repeatedly.

This is a telling charge that will have real resonance ith the people, and with veterans particularly, in the current climate.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. spread out, pals
Take the URL for this thread far and wide.

Post it on veterans' boards, send it to reporters, put it on blogs.

There's a family tradition of lying about military medals, apparently.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. Found the NGB22 from when he was released as Airman
This was a requirement before he could be commissioned. This form lists the SAEMR, which he is obviously wearing when his father pinned him with lieutenent bars. Here is line 24 from that document:



You can find the full NGB22 on page 11 of this PDF:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personn...

When I first saw this document, I thought it was yet another copy of his ANG22, but was mistaken. I discovered this while going over every last document for a second or third time.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. OMG, Bush was a SECOND LIEUTENANT IN THE PHOTOGRAPH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From the same document that contained his NGB22:



Page 12 from here:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personn...

I KNEW I saw this picture in one of the document packets!!!!!
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. help us out, Walt
What are you seeing in this pic?

Explain.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Lower Left Hand Corner, it says, and I quote:
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 12:46 PM by Walt Starr
"Bush, George W., 2LT"

On his AF11 dated May 16, 1971, Bush is listed as a First Lieutenent. That document also only lists his awards as the SAEMR. The AFOUA is NOT listed.

This means, without a doubt, that this photograph had to be taken after September 4, 1968 and before November 7, 1970.

This is damning.
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #45
158. for those who may be unfamiliar w/ some of this . . .
terminology, here's a helpful chart:

http://www.ecsu.ctstateu.edu/personal/faculty/pocock/ra...
(USA military ranks)
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strizi64 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
43. Sent it to a bunch of newspapers
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 12:14 PM by strizi64
Hi to DU, from a longtime lurker from Switzerland and my first post here in!

Great job that you have done, we all over here are looking forward to 2. November and we all hope that day will be the beginning of the end for GWB. Europe is on your side, 100 percent. Ok, without Tony Blush, but who cares about him...

Sent your findings to about 30 newspapers yesterday, mostly international. Feedback was mostly upbeat and I hope some of them jump on the story.

Please don't send further mails to the following adresses:

headlines@marketwatch.com
corporate.affairs@telegraph.co.uk
rklose@illinoistimes.com
headlines@wn.com
arktimes@arktimes.com
aneill@armytimes.com
salami@tehrantimes.com
caitimes@cairotimes.com
mcooke@suntimes.com
feedback@hindustantimes.com
opinion@japantimes.co.jp
foreign.news@thetimes.co.uk
dcburo@latimes.com
editor@atimes.com
home@guardian.co.uk
foreign@guardian.co.uk

They all sent me already mails about "we are working on this issue", etc, etc...

All the best to you, DU is a realy nice and interesting board. Much better than these dumb mess over at FR where I used to act as a provocator. Maybe they don't banned me upon now becaus I'm from Switzerland. Who knows. But they will be very surprised when i will let down my cammo. After 2. November.

St

(and sorry if there some gramma-mistakes, ok?)
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. send the followup, too!
Walt's work is even BETTER when you consider that Bush's grandfather lied about his military medals in WW1, and was fully humiliated for it.

Good work!

Let's roll!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. please remove that phone number immediately
...in fact, I suggest that post be deleted.

We don't want to give the freepers the contact info.
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strizi64 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. That's ok to me
but I hope you saw it before :)
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. thanks, mod
It was a nice idea to post the info that a story is being developed by a publication, but not good to have the contact info up.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Please take out the contact information in this post
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
56. I've shrunk the time line for the photo!
I've established the Bush as a second lieutenant in the photo. If we assume Bush is legitimately wearing his wings, then the photograph must have been taken somewhere between November 5, 1969 (date he finished the Undergraduate Pilot Training course) and November 7, 1970 (The date of his promotion to First Lieutenant).
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Walt, you are ALL THAT
AND a bag o'chips! :toast: :kick:
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DarkHemlet Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
58. Could applicable regulation have been subsequently changed?
I read the applicable regulations you posted, and must admit I am now confused.

I was in the Regular Air Force at about the same time (initially at the beginning of 1971). The unit I was assigned to had previously been awarded both the Presidential Unit Award, with Oak Leaf Cluster for subsequent award, and the Outstanding Unit Award, also with Oak Leaf Cluster. Both awards had been given to the unit prior to my arrival, but I was instructed to purchase both ribbons with bronze oak leafs for both, to put them on my dress Blue uniform and wear them for so long as I was assigned to the wing/squadron. Of course, neither award shows up on my DD-214, which is as it should be since I was not in the unit when it received the awards.

The point that I am confused over is that the regulation you posted says that the Outstanding Unit Award is not to be worn temporarily. Could it be possible that the regulation was changed subsequent to 1974?

(Can't believe that I am putting forth a point which supports Bush - especially since I was taking flight physicals at the same time he was blowing them off - I just want to bring forward the point in the quest for accuracy, so that it can considered )
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. welcome to DU!
Dig in and help us prove or disprove the allegation that Bush lied about his medals!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. The AFOUA and surrounding regulations were created as a result
of Air Force General Order 1 on January 6, 1954.

The list and criteria for awards is only changed to correct clerical erros (spelling etc.) or to add an award.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
97. thats absolutely not true
awards regs are changed for all types of reasons, not just to add or subtract awards, order of precedence can change, authorization of wear can and does change too.

EVEN if you are right that today the reg doesnt authorize follow on members of a unit to wear the ribbon, and i am still not convinced you are right, you have no evidence that was the case over 30 years ago!

I tell you what, you better be darn sure it was or this is going to backfire big time.

If it was, then you are right, although I doubt people are going to be very upset that he might have worn a unit citation when he wasnt supposed to, doesnt exactly breech the line.

It would be one thing if he had worn an individual award he wasnt supposed to...but could as easily be a case of the below:

"Greg When I retired in 1965, the proceedure at that time was to the effect that if I was in a unit at the time of the award, I could wear the award permanently....If I was later assigned to a unit that had received the award, I could, and, WAS ORDERED to wear the award as long as I was assigned to the unit....but on reassignment, I no longer was allowed to wear the award. If I was then assigned to another unit with the award, I, again was ordered to wear the award...again, as long as I was assigned to the unit.
I was told that the award was part of my uniform, and if I did not wear the award,where authorized,I was out of uniform.

I accessed the quoted regualation, however, I was not able to access beyond the listing.

I will have to contact the Military Flight at Grissom Air Base at Peru, Indiana.

Thank you for your answer.

Jim :-) M/Sgt USAF (Retired)"

This was from an air force forum that asked this very question, the forum guy brought up the same reg but it was pretty clear no one knew what was going on back in the day. You are on pretty shaky ground here IMO.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #97
116. Are you talking *SPECIFICALLY* about the AFOUA?
That's the award at issue here.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #116
160. I am talking about awards regulations
you made a blanket statement that the only reason the reg would have changed was because awards are added, and I am telling you regs change to alter who is entitled to an award as well.

You have several posters now saying they remember wearing a unit award and being told they had to wear a unit award back then, so that tells me that at some point people were either confused about the regulation even in the units back then, or the regulation was changed sometime after to change the entitlement.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #160
166. No, actually I didn't
I used the term "Generally".

Big difference.

I am definitely open to seeing older regs. I've been unable to locate them online.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #97
119. Do you have a link to that forum?
Please, give a link.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #58
74. Welcome to DU.
Intelligent challenges keep us digging. And prevent us from looking like idiots when we go public, btw.

I say "we" just because I'm a DU'er. I KNOW who's really doing the work. (Not wishing to wear a medal I didn't earn, as it were.)
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DarkHemlet Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #58
86. Thanks, & Found a date for initial 147th Outstanding Unit Award
Thanks for the welcome.

I am looking for copies of the applicable Air Force Regulations of the time, so far not too much luck, since all I am seeing are the Army Regs.

On a side note I see on a personal web page that in an article attributed to Paul Burka that:

'The 147th earned its first Air Force Outstanding Unit Award in 1966 when it was proclaimed, "The most combat ready of all Air Guard units."'

Another web page says that the 147th earned their third in 1982, so that would seem to leave the date of the second awarding as a point of interest.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. That's anectdotal
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 02:40 PM by Walt Starr
anecdotally, they had a third award in 1982 and a first in 1966.

Still don't know if either apply to the 111th or to George W. Bush.

For this to apply, the award must be within the timeframe of the completion of his Undergraduate Pilot Triaining and his promotion to First Lieutenant. That's about 1 year. He would have been detached from the 111th FIS to go to UPT.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
60. Kick!
Keep it up, Walt! :thumbsup:
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
61. Did He Throw His Ribbon?
I am shocked, shocked that he would stoop this low for a photo op.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
62. I'd be careful about making a big deal about a unit commendation:
From my experience, those pretty much by default go to everyone in the unit--no matter what-- if the unit is cited.
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TrueAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. This is true
And if some in the unit were awarded the AFOUA before Bush was there. He may of been confuse and thought he was suppose to wear it also. Young inexperience airman do this all the time.

I'm a 20 year USAF veteran.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. He was a second lieutenant in the picture. Officers are held to a higher
standard.

If he was mistaken, he can say he was mistaken. It does not alter the fact that he wore a ribbon he was not entitled to wear.
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TrueAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. True
Officers are held to a higher standard and ignorance is not an excuse. If it was an official Air Force photo, he should of known better.

But, everyone makes a mistake now and than.
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TrueAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Also in my 20 years of service
I have never, never seen an officer with over 5 years of service(especailly a pilot) with only two ribbons. Never. Something is not adding up here.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. At the time of the picture he had only served between 1 and 2 years
Also, in the "military biography" he is listed as having been awarded the NDSM. That is reserved for Active Duty troops only during the time periods covered for the award and Guardsmen on temproary active duty for training are not eligible.

You're damn straight something doesn't add up here!
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Blue Wally Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #73
165. I have.
I was in active duty in the early sixties. It wasn't until 1966 that they awarded the NDSM (backdated to 1961). That was my first medal. It wasn't till Vietnam that they began handing them out in buckets.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Then he can answer for his mistake. That does not alter the facts, though.
Seriously, this is only being brought up by me because I discovered it when looking into Bush's awards.

We know the pciture had to be taken some time between November 5, 1969 and November 7, 1970. During that time he was attached to the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron which is a subsidiary of the 147th Fighter Intercept Group. I can find no documentation that during this time period.

I am open for this to be disproven. All that needs to happen is for a document to be produced showing that either the 111th FIS was awarded the AFOUA some time between 05NOV69 and 07NOV70 or the 147th FIG was awarded the AFOUA some time between 05NOV69 and 07NOV70 with the provision that the 111th FIS is included in the award.
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Milflier Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #75
90. May need to check previous units
Probably need to check for awards given to units he was assigned to during training. Unit awards are given for performance or action during some period of time and as noted by someone else, it is/was not unusual for awards to be given to everyone who was in a unit for at least a minimal amount of time during the award period.

Generally, in my 20 years of service students in a training unit did not get included in unit awards, but that was not always the case and rules might have been different for USAF/TANG back then. Also wish to second the comment above about newbies, even relatively new officer, not always being up on rules for uniforms and personal awards. Particularly true for direct commission types, as ROTC/OCS types had those rules covered during training.

Final comment: in my branch of service shooting medals/ribbons were good for one year unless requalified three times (think it was three consecutive years but ???). What was the rule in TANG at the time, and when was the qual for that ribbon?

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. There should be accompanying documentation for the award, regardless
If there is, it certainly hasn't been released by Bush! In fact, every document where this award *SHOULD* have been listed has it conspicuously absent!
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Milflier Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. Agreed, only meant as a caution
Agreed - there should be paperwork specifically authorizing him to wear that medal/ribbon.

However, if one of his his training commands had received the award it would not be surprising to find that he initially thought he was entitled to it. A not entirely uncommon newbie mistake. Would be more questionable if there is a picture from later in his service showing him still wearing the same ribbon. Also really questionable if his offical bio lists that award since you'd expect authorizations for awards would have been checked and confirmed by now.



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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #96
118. 10:1 I know what happened and why he wore it
Some grizzly old Master Sergeant probably told him he had to wear the thing and he believed him.

Sergeant LOVE to pick on second lieutenants!

:evilgrin:
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CARENE Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #70
250. AFOUA
Do your homework on the unit in question, the 147th. They were awarded this in 1966,that is why the award is worn.
And you can not tell by that picture what rank is on his uniform.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Try as I might, I cannot find the unit citation for the 147th FIG or the
111th FIS.

I am open to any documentation anybody may desire to share, however, the award does not appear on his ANG22, nor any other document he has released.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. Well, as I recall,
I was expected to enter all the background information, including any citations or awards received on the commissioned officer's effectiveness report (COER) prior to evaluation each time period which was then signed by my commanding officer. THAT information (I believe) was the ultimate source of documentation for the DD214 entry. Thus, if I neglected one year to complete or update that section (or if there were a clerical error as these records were transcribed onto the DD214), that could be an explanation. The more important issue to me is the possible absence of his being awarded the 5 year citation.

All I am saying is tread carefully. Sometimes bureaucratic bungling explains a lot.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. Problem is, there are ample documents where this award *Should*
appear. It does not. The only thing listed is the SAEMR on any document with the exception of the "military biography". That document also lists the NDSM, but not the AFOUA.
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Milflier Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #77
99. Not only in OER
Someone could forget to include the award in their submission for their OER. However, as a separate process the unit should have submitted, shortly after the unit earned the award, a copy of the award citation and/or authorization to HQ for inclusion in each recipient's official personnel record.

It's possible a personnel clerk could mistakenly leave names off of the award list. It is also possible that the unit's personnel officer and administrative officer would not catch the mistake. Finally, when separating from the service one is required to review their personnel record and presented with an opportunity to correct any mistakes or omissions.

So, there were at least three formal occasions when an omission about the award could have been caught and corrected. Further, his official bio does not include the award. Can't believe it would have been left out when there is so little to crow about miliary service-wise in that bio. it seems most likely that he did not receive it, making the wearing of the ribbon in the photo inappropriate.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. or you could be like me
where they missed a whole host of awards and because i hadnt physically saved the hard copies (actually i had them stuffed in one of my bags but was in a hurry to get out of there) several didnt make it to my DD 214.

Yes my BNCOC graduation made it to anotherr document, but several of the awards did not, if i didnt have the hard copies, i would have been sol when i came back in after law school.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #71
98. "The 147th earned its first Air Force Outstanding Unit Award in 1966"
...when it was proclaimed, "The most combat ready of all Air Guard units."

From 1968 through 1970, pilots from the 147th participated in "Palace Alert" and served in Southeast Asia during the height of the Vietnam War.

With the continued draw-down of air defense units in the United States, the 147th FIG came off runway alert on Jan. 1, 1970 to start a new mission: training all F-102 pilots in the United States for the Air National Guard.


www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. Yep, and 1982 is listed as a second award of the AFOUA
In any case, if the 147th FIG or 111th FIS was awarded the AFOUA between November 5, 1969 and November 7, 1970 it should appear somewhere within the record of George W. Bush.

It does not. At least, not in any records Bush released!
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CARENE Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
249. Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
In 1966, the 147th Combat Support Group earned it's first Air Force Outstanding Unit Award when it was proclaimed, "The most combat ready of all Air Guard Units". He was assigned to this unit,He was required to wear the award.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
64. Has anyone sent it to Keith Olberman?
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 02:31 PM by Pirate Smile
Nevermind, just saw that someone above did send it.
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TrueAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
65. Here is his alibi
After waking up with a hang=over, young Lt Bush had to get his picture taken. His service coat had a big puke stain all over it. So he borrowed his friends coat and forgot to remove the extra ribbon. An inadverant wearing of a ribbon he was not awarded.

Expect a similar story form the Bush campaign without the hang over and puke stain of course.
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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
66. WTG Walt, this need a huge kick for the media boys n/t
:kick:
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
67. KICK THIS BABY
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usg353d Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
80. Double KICK!
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
88. Media, where are you?
Walt, thank you for your EXCELLENT work... I found your post (link) on Democrats.com; reading it lowered my blood pressure which was surging after yesterday's outburst by Viagra-Bob. I guess all that Viagra has pickled his brain.

Anyway, the media HAS to pick this up, if there is any justice in the world. I forwarded it to CNN's CROSSFIRE, the DNC and Howard Stern's website (he has the ears of many undecided voters). Any other ideas? Oh, I'll try thesmokinggun.com, too.

Another fine citizen took it upon himself to do the media's job and analyze the massive White House'document dump' (of Bush's military records)... and has proven beyond a doubt that Bush WAS AWOL- the URL is:

http://www.glcq.com /

Thank you thank you thank you, again.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #88
102. Welcome to DU!
Dig in and help!

What took you so long to get here? <grin>
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No Mandate Here. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
100. This thread should NOT stop... <nt> (until * is retired)
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
103. Trippi posted dKos link on Hardblogger!
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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #103
110. Walt - I have a question about the other medals
Is there still a question about medals he should have gotten for showing up that he didn't get? Medals that just about everyone gets? You had a thread on this yesterday but it hasn't been mentioned here. I wondered if it was still an open question. That seems to me at least as damning as wearing an undeserved ribblon because it proves the AWOL story and would put it back on the front page.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. I'm unsure about when the Texas Service Medal was created
That's the one for three years.

The Texas Faithful Service Medal has defintily been around since WWII at least as in the Texas law, the Federal Service Medal is newer code than the Faithful Service Medal and specifically mentions dates in 1940.

Bush served officially, according to his ANG22, 5 years, 0 months, and 28 days. If he served faithfully, he should have received that award.
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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. I sent the missing medal thread
to CNN and to Josh Marshall yesterday. I am hoping if enough people are sending this stuff to enough media something will come of it. How appropriate for him to be missing the "Faithful Service Medal". Just perfect!!
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #112
140. Congraulations Walt..
I put your synopsis on my home board in Texas, last night, other than one of the usual ignorant comments. No one else even made mention of it at all. And we do have a few Viet Nam Vets who post there. Though they seem to hate Kerry but for what, they have not exactly been specific...but even other vets who do not made not one mention about it.

I was nice in how I laid it all out too, unlike this SB group..

Still I think it is just fantastic that your questions on Bush's medals actually made the air. I will watch MSNBC tonight, I haven't yet.

I feel as if I am close to a celebrity..lol..
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #103
111. WOW
I'm humbled!
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
104. MSNBC's Hardblogger is linking to DailyKos about this issue
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 03:50 PM by Pirate Smile
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5445086 /

DesertDem you beat me to it.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. hoooray!!
Thanks, Keith or whoever picked it up.

But KOS needs to add the info about Prescott Sheldon Bush, who lied about getting fancy military decorations and his MOTHER had to send a letter to the newspaper correcting the info! I'm not registered at KOS -- can someone post the news over there?

Editor State Journal:
A cable received from my son, Prescott S. Bush, brings word that he has not been decorated, as published in the papers a month ago. He feels dreadfully troubled that a letter, written in a spirit of fun, should have been misinterpreted. He says he is no hero and asks me to make explanations. I will appreciate your kindness in publishing this letter.... (signed) Flora Sheldon Bush.
http://www.usndemvet.com/blog/archives/000656.html

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
113. I nominated this one for the front page!
awesome work, Walt!
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
117. Walt....here's some other info from KOS
Don't know if you have seen this yet:

Update III: It looks like Bush wasn't eligible for the Texas State Guard Service Medal, since the TSG is apparently a whole different entity than the Texas National Guard. However, he should've received the Texas Faithful Service Medal, which is awarded to members of the Texas National Guard who have "completed five years of honorable service during which the person has shown fidelity to duty, efficient service, and great loyalty to the state." Bush's ANG-22 claims Bush served over five years.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. Thanks, DOES ANYBODY HAVE ACCESS TO AIR FORCE PAMPHLET 900-2?
AFP 900-2 lists all unit awards in the Air Force up to about mid 1991. It is not available online from my research.

Anybody know of somebody with access to this document?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
121. Kick for AFP 900-2
Does anybody have access to this document? It coudl settle once and for all if * was eligible for the AFOUA!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. One more time, kick for AFP 900-2
I need to see this document!
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. kick again
come on, folks!

Walt, you might write to hackworth about this pamphlet you need. Or ask at some message boards?
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F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #122
129. Pssst.....
If you can't find it here on the web site(they have it), then contact them. If you need help preparing a FOIA let me know, but they also have info on this as well.

http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil /

Good luck.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
124. Wow Walt!
That's an awesome find! I hope it garners some media attention! :-)
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
125. WOW! Great research!
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robo Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
126. HEY!!! Past Duty Assignments WHERE IS ALABAMA ON IT?????
Where in Hell is Alabama on IT?????
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. Actually, nowhere
Alabama appears nowhere in the Bush records. Not once. Nada.

Maybe it's a unit there where he earned the mysterious AFOUA?

Oops! I forgot, he was a second lieutenant when he was photographed above and allegedly a first lieutenant when he was in 'Bama.
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shellbelle101 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. Michael Moore loves you.
I thought you'd like to know, you're on Michael Moore's website at this link--http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php
I've really enjoyed reading this. It's a great topic. I've been sitting here with a stupid grin on my face for the last 15 min reading this imagining the look on *'s face if this pans out! Good luck and congrats!

Shell
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #131
135. ON GUARD -- OR AWOL?
What about these guys who are quoted in the Memphis Flyer as never seeing Bush in Alabama, not even at the bar

http://www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=2837&onthefl...

THERES NO WAY WE WOULDNT HAVE NOTICED a strange rooster in the henhouse, especially since we were looking for him, insists Mintz

I talked to one of my buddies the other day and asked if he could remember Bush at drill at any time, and he said, Naw, ol George wasnt there. And he wasnt at the Pit, either.

The Pit was The Snake Pit, a nearby bistro where the squadrons pilots would gather for frequent after-hours revelry. And the buddy was Bishop, then a lieutenant at Dannelly and now a pilot for Kalitta, a charter airline that in recent months has been flying war materiel into the Iraq Theater of Operations

I never saw hide nor hair of Mr. Bush, confirms Bishop. . "In fact," he quips, mindful of the current political frame of reference, "I saw more of Al Sharpton at the base than I did of George W. Bush."

Published on Monday, August 23, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
The Clash Thesis: A Failing Ideology?
by M. Shahid Alam

"They hate us because we don't know why they hate us."
- Bill Maher




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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #131
136. welcome to DU
Shellbelle!

Stick around! We've been needing you here.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #131
139. Wow!
Way to Go, Walt!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #131
143. Welcome to the DU.
:hi:
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charlie105 Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #131
179. Welcome to DU shellbelle
You'll love it here. If you can ignore some crazies!

:hi:
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
132. I heard that the Outstanding Unit Award is a local award and would
not show up on records. Sounds strange that there are awards that wouldn't be recorded, but that's what I've heard.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
133. Excellent work Walt Starr!
If you come to New Orleans, I'll buy you a beer and some tasty, hot boiled crawfish!

:toast:
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kicktheelephant Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. UH OH! USA TODAY ASKING QUESTIONS OF BUSH
Questions about Bush's Guard service unanswered
By Dave Moniz and Jim Drinkard, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON At a time when Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has come under fire from a group of retired naval officers who say he lied about his combat record in Vietnam, questions about President Bush's 1968-73 stint in the Texas Air National Guard remain unresolved: (Related item: Bush urges end to TV attack ads by outside groups)

Since February, the White House has banned all Guard and military commanders outside the Pentagon from commenting on Bush's records or service. Requests for information must go to the Pentagon's Freedom of Information Act office.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/p...


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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #138
164. Thanks for posting, kicktheelephant, and welcome to DU!!!
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LimpDickCheney Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
142. Splendid work
I mentioned your research on a local Salt Lake City talk radio show hosted by former Republican Congressman Merrill Cook. I think Merrill might be a closet Kerry supporter... he was pretty receptive and hasn't been so with the SBVFT swill.
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RDL Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
144. I HEARD
he earned his brown wings for cornholin' the 'Murcan public
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
146. Well, goddam, Walt.
Whodda thunk it? Outstanding work! Too bad more of the press doesn't think like you.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #146
157. REally!
They're too busy digging into Kerry's medals and missing the real story.
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martinheldt Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
148. Kudos!
Great work Walt!

I have another document you might be interested in:




Martin Heldt

coldfeet@cis.net
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. Hey Marty!
Honored to have you here!

DU-ers, Martin Feldt is the man who ORIGINALLY acquired Bush's military records via FOIA request and who started the whole AWOL trail. This was prior to election 2000. Netizens tried desperately to make the story known to the American people.

Martin Heldt, American hero.

(mrs p)
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:14 AM
Original message
I hope you stick around Martin!
:hi:

Welcome to DU!!
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #148
154. welcome to DU!! n/t
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #148
156. Wow!
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 01:00 AM by Spazito
Your document states only ONE medal as well! The date is very interesting too, given that bush had been "missing" for the period prior to the May 10, 1973 date. According to this document, bush was "not rated" for the period 1 May, 1972 to 30 April, 73. That tells me that it is unlikely, highly unlikely he earned the questionable medal after. Here is the above mentioned document:

TXANG acknowledges it cannot account for Bushs training for an entire year



I found the site on another thread by Tandalayo_Scheisskopf:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #148
159. Welcome to du, Martin Heldt!
And thanks for your hard work!
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #148
161. Thanks for the post!
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #148
175. Welcome to DU, Marty! I can't see the document:
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 09:54 AM by Stephanie
I remember you from TT! Great to see you here.


*edit* - the doc jpg won't display - it says it contains errors. I added spaces so we could see the link:

http://www . alexandersarrow.com/bushawards.jpg
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #148
181. Marty, can you email this doc to Walt or somebody?
That site has exceeded its bandwidth and the jpg won't display.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
150. Nice job, Sherlock!
Jeeze dude- nice work!
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Target_Acquired Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
151. Have been checking the
"mission uncomplished" flightsuit photos in case * was dumb enough to wear the ribbons. I haven't seen any yet but there's a ton of the photos out there. Everyone should keep an eye out for one that might show the ribbons.
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
152. kick
TYY :kick: :toast:
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Scorpious_Maximus Donating Member (578 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
153. Brilliant! Well done!


I wonder if this will go "mainstream"

(as if)

Nice job.

- jb

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LimpDickCheney Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
162. TAFMS TAFCS
Found this at: http://www.topplebush.com/article3_military.shtml

Bush's Texas Air National Guard files also contain strange omissions and abbreviations on his discharge papers. Bush received three citations, according to the press release upon Bush's graduation from flight school. However on box 24 of his official discharge papers, Bush had the markings: "TAFMS" and "TAFCS." These Abbreviations (for Total Active Federal Military Service and Total Active Federal Service Commissioned Service) are oddly out of place.




You probably already knew that, but thought I'd pass it along anyhow.

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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
163. wow, is all i can say! Excellent job, Walt Starr!!!
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 02:57 AM by progressivebebe
I'll be keeping an eye out in the media now for any bobbing stories of bush's awol years and his "medal"

p.s. I hope the Kerry campaign gets whiff of this. They certainly have venues and access to give this legs.
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slutticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
168. This is being mentioned on Air America.
On Morning Sedition.


Good work guys.

Hi AIR AMERICA LISTENERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :hi:
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
169. Great job, Walt!
Michael Moore's web site! Think of how many people will now read about this! Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
170. AAR Morning Sedition is talking about this!!!
Now! :bounce:
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bwise Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
171. Sorry, Bush may well have correctly worn the ribbon.
In the USAF of the late 60s, early 70s, we all wore the outstanding unit award of the unit to which we were assigned if it had in fact won the award. If you were not in the unit when it was won, you only wore it while assigned to the unit. Whether it was "custom", authorized by regulation, or "extralegal", I don't know...and it doesn't really matter in distant retrospect...It is what was done. I wore the AFOUA of the 465th Bomb Wing(later absorbed by the 19th), 8th AF, while I was in the unit. I was instructed to do so, and did not wear it after leaving, and it is not on my DD214. You can call this "anecdotal", but that's how it was.
We should ask ourselves just how relevant trivial issues like this are, given the collosal failures of George W. Bush.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #171
172. Please, cite the regulation
Sorry, but one post does not make you credible.

Give me the reg.
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bwise Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #172
173. 1000+ posts, and you can't understand????
Please read the post again and try not to think like the swift boaters for "truth"...you have ignored facts from someone who was there to cling to your own prejudgment. The post clearly stated it was the custom and practice whether specified in a reg or not. Case closed, except possibly for those with an interest in diverting attention from the important issues.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #173
174. Again, you lack credibility
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 08:50 AM by Walt Starr
Please, anything anywhere to back up your statement. I'm sorry, but I need independent confirmation.
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bwise Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #174
188. You win, I'm releasing my entire military file to you...
Just kidding, of course, like I'd give my records to someone who has no concept of "burden of proof" and rejects evidence which doesn't agree with what he wants to be true...

The problem with your quest here is that those with firsthand knowledge would not hear of it or lack the interest to respond...and what good would it do for them to respond? You dismiss factual observations anyway! I came here because I saw a post on Buzzflash and was curious about the ribbon issue BECAUSE I had personal knowledge on the subject. I registered BECAUSE I had relevant information. Then my factual input is deemed "uncredible" because I am new, when it is obvious there is a lack of individuals on the site with the personal experience to comment!

There is a relevant pursuit you should be taking if you have interest in the facts...1. Find out the date of the photo, 2. Find out the unit to which Bush was assigned on that date, 3. Determine if that unit had been awarded or authorized the ribbon at that time. You could possible show Bush had no right to wear it! Then you would have contributed positively. Until then, I, who merely was "there", think he probably had a right to it by custom/policy at the time. I say "probably", because, with only two ribbons (even I had more!), an improper one would have been as noticable on his uniform as a "Nixon's The One" button"...Got to go now, forgot to read "Pearls Before Swine" this morning.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #188
189. Anecdotal evidence is unacceptable
Got a regulation for me?
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1timeonly Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #172
178. Not Credible Either
But I joined the AF in 1980, spent 14 years serving and remember early in my career people wearing the AFOUA when the unit they were in had previously earned the award, even when those people had not been assigned to the unit when the award was awarded.

This practice ended shortly after I enlisted, and I never was allowed to do it.

I believe it was one of those things people did because someone thought it was OK, and so everyone did it.

But it was never OK.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #178
180. Then an officer should know better.
Enlisted personnel are never held to the same standard as officers.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #180
184. what?
Absolutely they are, having been both.

The poster is right, you are holding onto what you want to be true and ignoring people who are telling you that back then it was definitely common practice if not in fact the regulation.

You keep asking for a regulation that you know no longer exists because it was 30 years ago. At this point, I am beginning to wonder if you care about the truth or just to push a meme.

The bottom line is, if this gets any traction, eventually it will turn out it was quite alright to do it, liberals/democrats are going to look like we dont understand the military or the rules, and it will feed into every crappy stereotype and look like a weak desperate attack on Bush.

I hope for one it doesnt catch on past the internet...because in the end, you are going to end up with egg on your face...try listening to people instead of assuming we must all be freepers just trying to hide the truth.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #184
185. Give me the reg
Again, I'll ask it one more time, cite the regulation allowing temporary wear of the AFOUA.

That's all I ask. I'm still researching to see if I can find the regs.

"Custom" doesn't cut it. There has to be a specific regulation.
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1timeonly Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #185
190. Regulations vs Custom
Custom carries a lot of weight in the military.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #190
192. Sorry, show me anything in writing, that's all I ask
Even it written down as being the "custom".

The Army has regulations covering the temporary wear of Unit Awards.

The California Air National Guard SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITS the temporary wear of ANY Unit Award in CA ANGI 36-2803 Chapter 1, Section 1.4 Definitions, Paragraph 1.14.21 and I quote:

"1.14.21. Temporary Wear. Individuals who were not assigned during the period cited but were subsequently assigned to a unit recognized by a unit award may wear the award only for the duration of his or her assignment. ANG personnel are not eligible for temporary wear."

I'm still hunting down any regulations regarding this in Texas.

I won't hold my breath waiting on a regulation citation from those who are offering anecdotal evidence.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #190
264. Not in the Air Force
The USAF is so new they haven't had time to develop customs. Nothing but regs. Icky.
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1timeonly Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #180
191. Date the photo
And find out if he was authorized those wings.

If he was wearing those and not authorized, that would be noteworthy.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #191
193. He should be authorized for the wings upon completion of UPT
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 11:18 AM by Walt Starr
I've confirmed he was a 2LT in the phot, so assuming the wings are legitimate, the photo is dated between November 5, 1969 and November 7, 1970.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #178
263. I'll see your AF in 1980
And call you with an Air Force enlistment in 1984. In my 4 years I never saw anyone wearing an AFOUA they weren't allowed to wear. And the bases I served on were particularly picky for various reasons.
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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #171
182. I think you're missing the point
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 10:09 AM by Onlooker
If the Bush campaign through its surrogate Swift Boat Liars elects to question Kerry's medals, it's relevant and important to question those worn by Bush. The media has given undue attention to the Swift Boat Liars, and hopefully (yeah, right!) will give equal time to charges against Bush. If Bush was wearing a medal he did not deserve it will serve to draw more attention to his undistinguished record of service. For disinterested voters, the issues brought up by the Swift boat liars and the truths uncovered by the likes of Walt Starr will garner more attention than any serious discussion of issues.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #182
187. Even if he WAS authorized to wear the ribbon under some now defunct
regulation, the comparison of Bush's awards to Kerry's is STRIKING!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
176. Still looking for confirmation on AFP 900-2 and old copies of regs.
and any regulation allowing temporary wear of unit awards.

I've still found nothing and have gone back to early nineties on Air Force regs.

Anybody with actual copies of AFP 900-2, or copies of AFI 36-2803 and AFI 36-2903 dated before November 7, 1970 would be greatly appreciated!
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #176
177. great cross checking Walt, Keep up the good work
keep digging, I have a feeling you'll find MORE than what you are actually looking for. On balance this is kinda trivial, but when Bush can find 250 vets to say Kerry lied but can't find one to say he completed his national guard duty, you KNOW something stinks to high heaven!!!!!

don't let up!!!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #177
183. Yes, and possibly.. like some duers have
stated..it can the ribbons he's Not wearing.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #183
186. Like the Texas Faithful Service Medal?
Or the National Defense Service Medal that is awarded to Active Duty Personnel, but not to those who are not on active duty? That's teh one the "military biography" claims he was awarded but is found nowhere else in the documentation.
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martinheldt Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #186
195. NDSM
Yes, the bio is the only information we have stating Bush had earned the National Defense Service Medal.

I do not know when the bio was written, but it was written after Bush's final discharge. I received it in a FOIA request to Denver in 2000.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #195
197. Yep, from the way the regs are worded on the NDSM, he was ineligible
yet this "military biography: claims he earned it. My question for the dubios "military biographer" would be, "When was Lieutenant Bush ordered to Federal Active Duty Status for purposes other than training or a physical examination?"

The Criteria for being awarded this medal are as follows:

3. Criteria : a. The National Defense Service Medal was awarded for honorable active service for any period between 27 June 1950 and 27 July 1954, between 1 January 1961 and 14 August 1974, between 2 August 1990 and 30 November 1995, and between September 11, 2001 and the present. For the purpose of the award, the following persons will not be considered as performing active service:

(1) Guard and Reserve forces personnel on short tours of duty to fulfill training obligations under an inactive duty training program.

(2) Any person on active duty for the sole purpose of undergoing a physical examination.

(3) Any person on temporary active duty to serve on boards, courts, commissions and like organizations or on active duty for purposes other than extended active duty.

b. The National Defense Service Medal may be awarded to members of the Reserve Components who are ordered to Federal active duty, regardless of duration, except for the categories listed above. Any member of the Guard or Reserve who, after 31 December 1960, becomes eligible for the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, Vietnam Service Medal or the Southwest Asia Service Medal is also eligible for the National Defense Service Medal.


I can find nothing in Mr. Bush's record to support eligibility for the award, nor documentation that the award was ever given to Mr. Bush.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #199
200. This is nothing personal
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 01:34 PM by Walt Starr
I question your motivations. It's nothing against you, it is suspicion for the very nature of what is being worked on here. This coupled with the fact that you registered today lends a definite lack of credibility to those things you say. Simply present the documentation to back your case up as I have.

I've got requests in for the specific regulations covering this. I've got further requests in for the dates covered in trhe 147th FIW AFOUA awards.

The NDSM does not appear on the ANG22, ergo, it is not valid unless the original award citation is presented. Those are the regulations regardless of any claims to the contrary.

If you've got documentation to the contrary, by all means present it. Anectdotal evidence is unacceptable as has been said time and again.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #199
201. BTW, his active duty was for training, not a federal activation order
read the regs again.
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bwise Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #201
203. Read the reg and
beyond that, I understand what it says...You are confusing inactive duty for training, active duty for training as a "short tour" (less than 30 days) and extended active duty such as for the many months of flight training. The short tours were commonly called "active" duty for training to distinguish from the typical weekend duty which is "Inactive" duty for training. Those who served only 2 week tours or weekends were denied the National Defense ribbon. Those like Bush who served on extended active duty got the ribbon. It appears you have erred by putting your own spin on things you have no personal knowledge of...and... you do want to understand, don't you? The reg you have cited above clearly shows Bush eligible for the National Defense ribbon by virte of extended active duty during the relevant time frame, and the reg says nothing about "special" mobilizations to qualify. And still you cling to false beliefs...at least you can't say you weren't warned. I'm just sorry to have a reckless person like you on our side.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #203
205. If he was awarded the medal, please present the documentation
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 02:22 PM by Walt Starr
The medal DOES NOT appear on his ANG22. The NDSM *DOES* appear on John Kerry's DD214.

Where's the documentation? Supply it!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #203
208. You know what, I just figured out where the documentation is for the NDSM!
It will be on the DD214 that would have been issued on November 21, 1974 after completion of his hitch at HQ ARPC (ORS) that began on October 2, 1973. That's where the missing NDSM documentation will be!
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LimpDickCheney Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
194. Out of Uniform
If George received the National Defense Medal, then he is out of uniform in the above photos (I was in the Navy, and you had to, at the very least, wear your top 3 decorations). Additionally, the campaign says he received the National Defense Medal, but it appears nowhere in his service record (paperwork or photos). Did he lie about his service in the press release?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
198. Troubling information regarding the "temporary wear" of Unit Awards
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 12:52 PM by Walt Starr
Now that I'm on my lunch, I can get back to something that has troubled me as the issue of "temporary wearing" of unit awards has been brought up. All research into this issue demonstrates that history of the unit and direct lineage come into play. Unit missions are altered as time goes by, but the accomplishments of the unit within its history lives on forever.

That brings us to the history of the 147th Fighter Intercept Wing, which while Bush was a member was the 147th Fighter Intercept Group. Bush belonged to a subsidiary of that Group called the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron.

Here's the troubling information from the history of the 147th FIW on its web site:

"By November 1942 the squadron was in Europe. During 23 months of continuous combat flying, from June 1943 through May 1945, the 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron flew 3,840 reconnaissance missions. While keeping Army Headquarters informed of enemy movements, the 111th destroyed 44 enemy aircraft, damaged 29 others and claimed 12 probable kills. The squadron received eight Battle Stars and the Presidential Unit Citation for its World War II accomplishments. The squadron also served during the Korean War, flying mostly close-air support and interdiction missions and destroying two MiG-15 fighter jets."

Under the doctrine of direct lineage, the 111th TRS became the 111th FIS and is still recognized as having been awarded the Presidential Unit Citation. If temporary wearing of Unit Awards was in effect while Bush was a member of the 111th FIS, he should have been wearing the PUC as well as the AFOUA! Based upon the dating of the above picture, Bush would have been a member of the 111th FIS as that is where he was assigned after his Undergraduate Pilot Training and before he was promoted to First Lieutenant.

While not conclusive, it is certainly worth considering and this all comes down to a single question, "when did the 147th FIW receive its second AFOUA?"
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #198
202. thanks, Walt
As is usual with Bush family stories, the more you find, the more there is to find. I urge you to keep digging.

Of course, there's always the possibility that he kept the ribbons in the ash tray of his beat-up and filthy car (described by his contemporaries) and had no clue what he should or shouldn't be wearing. He was known to live a disheveled and chaotic life then.
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1timeonly Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #198
213. URL
Where is their site? When did the 147th get their AFOU awards?

And then, what about the 111th FIS?
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Jack from Charlotte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #198
217. Do I understand this correctly? Bush is wearing a ribbon because
the unit he was attached to was awarded that ribbon during.........

.............. World War II? 20 some years and 3 wars later Bush gets to wear that ribbon?

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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
204. The best part of this thread is the freeps quibbling about details.
They have an entire group that want's America to take their word for it that navy records and regulations are wrong and Kerry didn't deserve those medals. Here, they want us to a) provide the original regulations and b) (my fav) accept the fact that it was common practice even if it was against regulations. LOL!

My response: Fuck you. See, we're playing your game. IF this gets in the press it DOESN'T MATTER what the old reg or common practice was. The stories will raise serious questions about chimp wearing medals he didn't earn. That picture will be on the TV with the ribbon cirled. Bam. How ya like it?

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #204
206. My favorite was the requirement that I prove the Air Force had a specific
regulation saying that you couldn't wear a unit award temporarily!
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #204
209. Take no prisoners
Amen, John_H!

You are RIGHT.

Since the American public is being subjected to the Swift Vet Liars' vicious ads played ad nauseum on cable TV it's time to kick their dirty tactics right back at 'em... the photo of Bush wearing an unearned decoration is a FINE, FAIR comparison to an opponent whose bravery and service to all of us that he (the talking chimp) has chosen to demean. Let the pundits debate the rules and regs, in the meantime, the photo will be seen again and again, reminding the public of the considerable difference between the wartime achievements of both men.

Also, putting Bush's military accomplishments (yuk yuk) back in the spotlight may result in Karl Rove calling off the Swift Vet Liars crusade (or diminishing it, if he can).

This is a nasty, dirty game and let's face it, we are LOSING this one now- we have GOT to get them on the defensive on this issue. If this doesn't stop soon, a critical sliver of voters may be peeled away, then it's 4 more years of HELL (Teresa had it right).

WHEN is this getting on the (network, cable) news? In the newspaper?
I forwarded the info to a number of news wires, newspapers, magazines, journalists, and the DNC early this morning.

Walt, you are a great man.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #209
210. If nothing else, Kerry's awards must be shown beside Dubya's
I'll even accept them adding the ones without full documentation to Dubya's.

:evilgrin:
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1timeonly Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #204
211. Your Fav
I threw my two cents in because if someone out there has time to research this stuff, I think they would like to at least be able to consider whether or not its worth pursuing.

I am not telling anyone not to keep looking just because I vaguely remember it being a common practice a long time ago to wear a ribbon you were not involve in a unit earning. Keep looking,you may find out he is wearing a rather insignificant (wasnt involved in promotion selection ) ribbon he isn't authorized to wear. Or you may spend 3/4 days searching just to find out that he was authorized.

Your choice.

To be honest, I would much rather know where he was during his missing years than what he was wearing on his chest in that picture.

BTW, I voted for Dean.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #211
212. Provide the documentation
Cite theAir force Regulation that allowed * to wear that ribbon.

Can't do it, can you?
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Willy Mugobeer Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
207. Great work Walt!
I've put your first post up on the web at http://www.awolbush.com/awards.asp - hope that's OK with you. I'll link it up from a more prominent place on the home page later on tonight when I get back to my web tools at home.

And hey everybody - feel free to stop on by AWOLBush.com for a plethora of links, editorials, letters to the editor, cartoons, etc. etc. about GW's desertion from his pilot duties. Site traffic has really been smoking in recent days - looks like the Swift Boat Smearies campaign has really drummed up interest in GW's service record, too...

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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #207
231. another celebrity visits Walt's thread!
Willy Mugobeer -- owner of awolbush.com.

Welcome to DU!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #207
234. Thank you
I'm honored you would link to this work!
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #207
239. Welcome to DU
I post your stuff on DU sometimes. You got a good site. :)
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Willy Mugobeer Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #239
265. Thanks Joanne...
...actually, Marty Heldt should be the real celebrity here; he and a merry band of TableTalkers have supplied practically all the materials for the site; I just cut-and-paste...

Oh, and have you guys seen Paul Lukasiak's work at http://www.glcq.com/bush_at_arpc1.htm ? He lays out the case for a desertion charge very convincingly.

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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #265
276. yeah I seen it
Maybe we can get him and all the AWOL bloggers to help put this story in Google prison. :)
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
214. Temporary wearing of Unit Awards in Air force DEBUNKED!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #214
215. Another kick for the naysayers
We're almost home!
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Herosmith Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #215
216. Not DEBUNKED!
Here is s reference from the National Guard of Texas. While it may not be the exact reference, at least it shows that this is not an exceptional practice. Check under MERITORIOUS UNIT AWARD at http://www.txusa.com/tsga/Ribbon%20regulations.htm
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #216
218. You GOTTA read the above post!!!!
Hey folks! The Air Force must let people wear awards they didn't earn! Hey, the Texas Air National Guard Association does! BWAHHAHHAHHA

Also, check out the hilarious top page from whence this "info" came.

http://www.txusa.com

If you want, you can send them money so they can buy realistic looking medals and ribbons for their make believe awards.

http://txusa.com/tsga/association%20medals.htm

LOL! Stick with this folks. The freeps are in a tizzy and more pathetic than usual--and that can only mean one thing!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #218
220. ROFLMAO!!!
He thinks Hicks and Associates CPAs from Houston Texas know more about Air Force regulations regarding the wear of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award than the Air Force Personnel Center!!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

That CRACKS ME UP!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #216
219. Um...dude, like, that's *NOT* the award Bush was wearing.
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 07:09 PM by Walt Starr
Like, Bush is wearing an *Air Force* Outstanding Unit Award he did not earn

Um...(how can I say this delicately?????)the Texas Meritorious Unit Award is a Unit Award for Texas *ARMY* National Guard units and is worn over the right pocket.

I've never contended the practice of wearing unit awards for Army units temporarily was invalid, let alone claim it was invalid for Texas Army National Guard units. I even cited the Army regulations governing the practice in this very thread as a dichotomy to the lack of such regulations from the Air Force.

I have to admit, though. All of the misdirection and bogus claims made by the naysayers on this thread really tell me I'm onto something huge here. Apparently, the Busheviks have been preparing to counter-attack the truth of this matter for years and years!
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #219
222. You're such a nice boy...
...and so proud of yourself.

But as a Democrat who really wants there to be something to this issue, I don't think you're there.

I see posts by some people saying wearing the award was something that was done in that time era if your unit had previously won the award.

The regulations are only as strict as the enforcement, and if it was a common practice to wear the award based on something one's unit did before someone was with it, they probably just went along. Remember that for the first several years of service, especially for someone who's there only cuz Pappy says he's gotta be there, the military is pretty much about going along.

A pity, really, cuz this thread held such promise, too.

Thanks for the "Vietnam era ribbons" pic, though.... it's a hoot.

Paul H.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #222
226. Another 'In Your Face Kick"
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 09:43 PM by Walt Starr
For those who think they know better than the AIR FORCE PERSONNEL CENTER who quickly debunked the "temporary wear" garbage:

Walter Starr, below is your initial request, and resolution. If the resolution is not sufficient please e-mail us at mailto:contact.center@randolph.af.mil or the POC below. Include your ticket number. You can also submit an update to your original request by logging into https://webcolab.afpc.randolph.af.mil/Scripts/rightnowd ...

Problem : A couple of questions about the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
Problem Details : Hi, I have a couple of questions about the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award.

1) Has the AFOUA ever been authorized for temporary wear? The Army has many Unit Awards that, when you transfer into a unit, the award is worn temporarily, and then removed upon leaving said unit. Is this a practice of the Air Force or has it ever been a practice of the Air Force?


2) I have no access to the Air Force Pamphlet 900-2. I have found that the 147th FIG (now the 147th FIW) received a first award of the AFOUA in 1966 and a third, I believe, in 1982. Could you give me the dates of all AFOUA awards the 147th Fighter Intercept Wing has been awarded in its illustrious history?


Thank you so much!
Resolution : Mr. Starr,
IAW AF Instruction 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND DECORATIONS PROGRAM

All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.


Additionally,
there isn't a "temporary" wear of AF Outstanding Unit Awards for AF personel. Unfortunately, we do not have access to 900-2 however, if you request verification of entitlement of award of the AFOUA while assigned to a specific unit from the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, they can research the data for you. Please send your request to the below address and include a copy of your DD Fm 214 showing proof of service. They'll be able to provide a one time issue of the award upon verification.
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P_J 4 Kerry Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #226
251. Air Force Regulations
I realize that I am new here, and that this may not be well received, but here it goes....

I am an Air Force brat. While my dad was stationed overseas (The Azores, Portugal, to be exact) I worked in the Legal Affairs office aka Judge Advocate's office. We were required to keep ALL current Air Force regulations as well as those for the Army and the Navy, as there were Army and Navy units assigned to the base. My job was to update all of those regs. I had to pull out the old ones and replace changes as they were received. Changes are made CONSTANTLY! I spent at least 4 hours a week pulling pages and pages out of loose leaf notebooks and replacing them. I imagine that they are all on the Internet now. Anyway, you need to find the revision date on the regs provided to you by the Personnel Center. If they haven't been altered in 35+ years, then I hope every media outlet around the world airs this story and where it came from and you should get the Pulitzer. It will be difficult for someone outside the military to find the old regulation if the reg has been revised. We were instructed to destroy all of the old regulations upon replacement.
Good luck in your efforts...
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #251
271. I verified the information via the AFPC
Temproary wear of the AFOUA is not authorized for Air Force Personnel.
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bwise Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #219
225. So evidence contrary to what you want to believe
now makes you think you're onto "something huge". What kind of thinking is that? You have been repeatedly told by people like me who were "there" that your assumptions are wrong... but to you that makes me a "Bushevik" (despite my daily stack of mail from Democratic candidates I've contributed to.) If you do get "national" with this easily disputed issue, the smackdown should be what's really "huge". PS: Have you taken my earlier advice and simply called an Air Guard or Air Reserve Unit and simply asked? Well, actually, it's obvious you haven't. It's looking like I stumbled into a Dem Freeper's site.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #225
227. Nope, unfounded claims that are in direct contradiction to the evidence
provided by the Air Force Personnel Center makes me question the credibility of one who would make such a claim.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
221. One more kick in the face of the naysayers
Still no evidence to counter my investigation!

:evilgrin:
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #221
223. Yes there is.
There is anectdotal evidence from one or two people who claim they were instructed to wear unit ribbons that were not awarded during their time in the unit.

You know, not everyone one who disagrees with you is a Bush lover. There are other possibilities. For instance, you could be wrong, you know.

All I'm saying is, after reading your evidence and the replies of others, I am unconvinced. And I am partisan toward your view.

Without a stronger case, the media will never pick this up. It's much ado about nothing.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #223
229. "There is anectdotal evidence "
so much for credibility...

Hey, I know a guy who talked to a guy who says bush* is an asshole.

Must be true!

RL
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #229
232. The point is....
....all you need are one or two talking-head military guys (you know, the "experts" the networks use to explain military stuff to us simpletons) to say the same thing, and it evaporates into nothing. It's not a crime to be caught wearing wearing a ribbon you didn't earn thirty years ago.

I really don't know one way or the other whether this is a big deal or not, and that's the point: The average voter won't either. So it is hard to make something like this mean anything.

Now if they can break the Plame case open (I hear they're implicating VP Chief of Staff Libby), that could be promising.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #232
238. Ol' half-a-John_H here is missing the point.
The story is not "Oh my god bush wore a ribbon he didn't deserve" per se. It's about Bush is letting other people question the validity of Kerry's medals while having worn a medal he didn't earn. It's the hypocisy that gets you the story, pardner.
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #221
224. But there is some value to this thread
I learned a lot about Bush's military service. For a guy who was in it as long as he was, he got virtually no awards of any kind. I bet his officers didn't like him much but put up with him the same way they put up with the other rich kids.

I bet he got picked on by bullies in school too.

I mean, face it, the guy's a dweeb.
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Willy Mugobeer Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #224
266. I'm still puzzled by the "TAFMS" and "TAFCS" in Box 24...
...I mean, I know what they stand for, but what the hell are they doing in Box 24? They're not awards, badges, etc. etc...seems like serious incompetence on the part of some clerk to throw two random abbreviations in there that just don't belong in that place on the form...
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
230. So what's the bottom line? Does this dog hunt?
I'm assuming it does. However, I know the Repuglified Freeperzoids might find some "point" to make about the whateverthefuck...
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #230
233. I believe I had made my case beyond a reasonable doubt in the first post
All that remains is a single shadow of a doubt.

If he had earned the award, it would be in the documentation. It would be on his ANG22. It is not, nor is there any substantiating documentation anywhere released by Bush. Nor is the award in question mentoned in the "military biography" prepared by the Bush team.

There have been some naysayers who threw out the red herring of "temporary wearing" of Unit Awards. I demonstrated this is a practice of the United States Army, not the United States Air Force. I provided the documentation on the full regulations regarding this from the Army and provided the source on wear of Unit awards from the Air Force in which nothing whatsoever is said about allowing the "temporary wearing" of the AFOUA. I further went to the experts on the matter, the United States Air Force Personnel Center, got 100% verification that the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award is never worn temporarily, and provided that documentation.

The final red herring thrown out is that he earned the award, but somehow it never made it into the record, nor into the "military biography" contrived by the Busheviks. The final nail into the coffin of this "shadow of a doubt" that remains will be the absolute verification of dates covered by awards of the Air force Outstanding Unit Award to the 147th Fighter Intercept Group (now the 147th Fighter Intercept Wing), which we know from second hand sources may have earned the award in 1966 for the first time and in 1982 for the third time. The only other avenue for this miraculous injustice done to Bush by omitting the award from his record would be if somehow, the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron (a subsidiary unit of the 147th FIG) earned the award while Bush was a member.

Does this dog hunt? I'd say it's returning with the pheasant in its mouth. Expect the final nail to be fully driven into the coffin within the next two weeks. Sooner, if some enterprising journalist who has connections capable of providing the historcal data on the 147th FIG and the 111th FIS decides to pick up on this.

If there is a journalist who meets those qualifications reading this message, feel free to take everything I've written in this and other threads and use it to your heart's content. I only want this issue which demonstrates the depths of depravity contained within the character of George W. Bush to see the light of day.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #233
235. Good job, Walt!
We'll shall see. Whatever happens.. it has been an interesting and educational ride.
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Billjohn Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
236. Do you have any clue what a Unit Award is?
Do a little more research and you will find that a unit award is worn by anyone assigned to the unit that received it. When the individual leaves that unit they are only allowed to wear it if they served in that unit when the unit actually received it - it is then (ad only then) a permanent award that goes in their record.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #236
237. This is an Air Force unit award, not an Army unit award
Edited on Wed Aug-25-04 10:35 AM by Walt Starr
This was debunked yesterday by the Air Force Personnel Center. The Air Force does not allow "temporary wear" of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award for Air Force Personnel.

Doing what you describe in the Air Force is a flagrant violation of Air Force regulations.

Get your facts straight before registering to spew incorrect information.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
240. This thread is getting to long
for us losers on dial-up. do we really have to wait 2 weeks for the last info? Nobody can get the history of the Air National Guard awards? Why is that so hard?
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masshole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
241. found this page
I have no idea what significance if any it may have.


"The 147th earned its first Air Force Outstanding Unit Award in 1966 when it was proclaimed, "The most combat ready of all Air Guard units." But Bush didn't join until 1968, so he wouldn't be eligible to wear the ribbon, correct?

From 1968 through 1970, pilots from the 147th participated in "Palace Alert" and served in Southeast Asia during the height of the Vietnam War." Could the 147th won some award for this? Would Bush be eligible to wear the ribbon if so?


http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm

Great job Walt.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
242. Great job Walt. Keep digging, keep this alive.
Don't you just love the way all these new posters just happened to join DU and their first post is in this thread, claiming total knowledge of the topic and why it is debunked.

Then Walt just smacks them down with facts.

Then the Chickenhawk Repukes go scurrying like the cockroaches they are...

RL
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no_more_W Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #242
243. I don't know about anyone else, but
when I first looked at the photo in Walt's original post, something didn't look quite right. After following this discussion with great interest for the past 2 days, I went back to the photo and discovered what it is that originally bothered me. To my eyes, the wings and the ribbon below look like they were added to the photo later. The left side of W's head and jacket have a distinct shadow, but the wings and ribbon have no shadow whatsoever. Call me crazy (or blind), but it might be more an issue of "Bush is pictured wearing medals he didn't even WEAR." Any photo experts out there?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #243
244. If the photo was doctored, the Busheviks did the doctoring
From the documents released by bush:

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no_more_W Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #244
245. no question the Busheviks would have done the doctoring
but, do you think the badges in the photo look "funny" Walt? or am I crazy?
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no_more_W Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #244
246. no question the Busheviks would have done the doctoring
but, do you think the badges in the photo look "funny" Walt? or am I crazy?
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Pot Kettle Black Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #246
247. Doctored? No. Lemme 'splain.
My undergrad degree is in film, and I worked in TV for a few years before returning to school for an MBA, so I'll tell you a little story about lighting that may explain why the first picture and the medals may look a little doctored but aren't.

* is lit from his right, the objective left, in the photo. His lapel is casting a major shadow on the left side of his uni, where his hardware is displayed. It's a cheap photo, the kind you'd get at the DMV, with only one major light source with nothing to balance the shadows on his left side.

Naturally, we would assume his medals to be dark, since they should be in shadow. However, there are other light sources in the room, like the overhead light, they are using to see. That is what is illuminating the bright brassy medal that I guess is either his wings or the disputed award. Being bright and shiny, it is reflective, which is why it looks so bright. You can see a similar effect on the US tag on his lapel. His big stupid head is casting a little extra shadow on that, which is why it is not quite as bright as the wingy thing (yeah, I know squat about medals... I know a little about photography though). The button that is wholly in the shadow of his head is obviously not getting enough light from the overhead to be shined up, like the things facing forward. From that, I can determine that the room's light is probably an overhead in the center of the room, and Bush is up against a wall, probably in front of a screen, not the actual wall.

If you want to see this effect blown way out of proportion, look at some of the moonshot photos, where the guys are standing in the shadows, yet very bright. Some of those "we didn't go to the moon" people point to that effect as proof that the photos are phonied. They would be wrong too.

no_more_W: The badges look a little funny, but not any funnier than can be explained with an introductory course in photographic lighting. I'd say you're crazy, but it's not a well known phenomena to the lay person.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #247
248. Thanks for the info!
The wings are his pilot wings. There are two ribbons under the wings. The one on the left as you look at them is the ribbon in question.
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #242
252. Yeah, keep digging, Walt.
And let me know when you find something that's really gonna hurt Bush.

Cuz this ain't it.

I don't know much about the topic, mostly what I've read on this thread is it. I'm just saying that based on what you've presented here, there isn't a whole that that is very condemning of Bush.

You have dug up some pretty interesting facts. I don't have a problem with that. However, you jump straight to the conclusion that this is going to somehow sink the Bush campaign. It's gonna take more than this.

And as far as the remark about the newbies is concerned, we've all been newbies on every board we've posted on. This thread probably attracted some attention because it was linked from metafilter on August 23.
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Pot Kettle Black Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #252
253. If I were a lawyer, I'd say....
It goes to pattern.

In and of itself, wearing some bar that he wasn't supposed to is not going to be a big deal to anyone other than a few military people and sticklers for detail (Bless them all). But there are two other things going on here:

1- Kerry got his medals fair and square. Even if you buy everything the Swift (with the facts) Boat Vets for (something that might be mistaken for) Truth, Kerry still got three purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star in somethings resembling combat action in Vietnam. And they are raking his ass over the coals (wrongly by any reputable source) for talking about his experience as a combat commander.

At the same time, there's *, who probably used Daddy or Grand Pappy's pull to get into the Guard before he got hauled off to Nam (where Kerry signed up to go). *, by even the most glowing account of his time in the TANG, was an undistinguished officer. And here he is, sometime between November 69 and November 70 (when Kerry is off getting medals in Nam), wearing a decoration for something he had nothing to do with, and out of line with the rules of the day (I accept that it may have been common practice, but that doesn't make it right, it just means the standards were too low). It's a pretty stark contrast, before you even factor in the missing time and the other tales of *, the TANG Five years and twenty-one days.

and 2- Bush is pretty fast and loose with the facts. I'm not gonna call him a liar, because I don't know him, and he may just be ignorant. No single misrepresentation of reality has sunk him. Not Yellow Cake, not A few bad apples, not I don't know Ken Lay, not any ironically titled regulation removal or new initiative on the poor (you gotta hear Marianne Edelman Wright talk about No Child Left Behind, which was Children's Defense Fund's moto before it got co-opted into something that CDF doesn't like). But there is a whole world of reality ignoring (supply side economics) or reality distorting (Mission Accomplished) things that come out of the current occupant of the 1600 Penn, and this medal dust up, is just loony enough, just down to earth enough, that it might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Or maybe the straw before that straw.

Someday, we might, if we are lucky and the Republican'ts actually fail to cover it all, get the whole story on the Five Years and Twenty One days * spent in and around the Texas Air National Guard. Since the records haven't been forthcoming, this'll have to be a piece of the mosaic of what will probably, ultimately be a portrait of a developing alcoholic, party boy, child of privilege.

So, Walt, if you wanna keep digging to help fill more of that mosaic with this story, go right on ahead.

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no_more_W Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #253
262. thanks Pot Kettle Black
for the explanation - that was exactly what I was looking for. And now it's confirmed I'm not really crazy, just uneducated on this subject (but more educated now!). Thank you also for your comment about "newbies." I wasn't new to the DU site but an infrequent visitor as I have limited time to spend on the Internet, and Buzzflash is my first site of choice - that's how I came across this thread the other day. And this is the first time I have ever participated in an online forum. It's been a pleasure reading posts from intelligent and articulate people like you and Walt.
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Pot Kettle Black Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #252
254. If I were a lawyer, I'd say....
It goes to pattern.

In and of itself, wearing some bar that he wasn't supposed to is not going to be a big deal to anyone other than a few military people and sticklers for detail (Bless them all). But there are two other things going on here:

1- Kerry got his medals fair and square. Even if you buy everything the Swift (with the facts) Boat Vets for (something that might be mistaken for) Truth, Kerry still got three purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star in somethings resembling combat action in Vietnam. And they are raking his ass over the coals (wrongly by any reputable source) for talking about his experience as a combat commander.

At the same time, there's *, who probably used Daddy or Grand Pappy's pull to get into the Guard before he got hauled off to Nam (where Kerry signed up to go). *, by even the most glowing account of his time in the TANG, was an undistinguished officer. And here he is, sometime between November 69 and November 70 (when Kerry is off getting medals in Nam), wearing a decoration for something he had nothing to do with, and out of line with the rules of the day (I accept that it may have been common practice, but that doesn't make it right, it just means the standards were too low). It's a pretty stark contrast, before you even factor in the missing time and the other tales of *, the TANG Five years and twenty-one days.

and 2- Bush is pretty fast and loose with the facts. I'm not gonna call him a liar, because I don't know him, and he may just be ignorant. No single misrepresentation of reality has sunk him. Not Yellow Cake, not A few bad apples, not I don't know Ken Lay, not any ironically titled regulation removal or new initiative on the poor (you gotta hear Marianne Edelman Wright talk about No Child Left Behind, which was Children's Defense Fund's motto before it got co-opted into something that CDF doesn't like). But there is a whole world of reality ignoring (supply side economics) or reality distorting (Mission Accomplished) things that come out of the current occupant of the 1600 Penn, and this medal dust up, is just loony enough, just down to earth enough, that it might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Or maybe the straw before that straw.

Someday, we might, if we are lucky and the Republican'ts actually fail to cover it all, get the whole story on the Five Years and Twenty One days * spent in and around the Texas Air National Guard. Since the records haven't been forthcoming, this'll have to be a piece of the mosaic of what will probably, ultimately be a portrait of a developing alcoholic, party boy, child of privilege.

So, Walt, if you wanna keep digging to help fill more of that mosaic with this story, go right on ahead.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
256. Additional information to be released later this afternoon
Thursday, August 28th.

I have to get some stuff done at work before I can post it. Look for a new posting late this afternoon.

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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
257. The Word is out at Freepville...they are wetting themselves...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1199970/posts

And they might even be helping...!

The clowns at DU obviously missed the most important thing in the pic: The Wings! He should have received a row of ribbons just for surviving F102 training

My favorite comment:

They're trying to discredit Bush because he got more awards than he says he did????? Desperation to the nth degree...

Hah!!!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #257
258. Wait until I break my information this afternoon
:evilgrin:

This ois gonna be great!
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #258
259. Walt, can we start a new thread on this?
This one is very long now.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #259
260. Sounds like Walt's gonna start another later today...nt
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Kukesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #258
261. We're waiting, Walt. Great job; thank you. n/t
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #258
274. Where is this going?
Walt, though your revelations have been circulating on the net, I wonder if they will 'break through' to the national media.... I wonder why the DNC has not taken advantage of this yet? Could they be sitting on it, waiting to leak it on the eve of the GOP convention? (That's wishful thinking) Surely they must have knowledge of this by now. Have you heard anything, or has anyone been in touch with you?

With today's (terrible) news that the Swift Boat Liars' smear campaign has driven Kerry's poll numbers down (and Bush's up) you would think that the DNC would want to hit back hard, in the chestnuts. I am disheartened that Kerry continues to take the high road while those bottom-feeding dirt bags spread their lies. And tomorrow they (the filthy Swift Boat Liars) will release a third ad, guaranteeing blanket coverage on cable news. This is NOT GOOD. Why isn't the so-called liberal media jumping on this?

BTW, I checked out the Free Republic thread on this topic, and not to be rude, but the folks who post here seem to be much more literate, articulate and intelligent than those who post there. I guess that's the strata that a dim bulb like Bush appeals to.

That's another thing: the longer this sits around, the more time the Bush camp has to cook up their response. Let me guess: Kerry added the medals himself in PhotoShop- a cut-and-paste job, if I ever saw one.

Thanks again for your great work.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #257
270. It's amazing how much those idiots lurk over here and they admit it.
And they call us desperate.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
267. I have learned so much from this thread.
Thanks. :toast:
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
268. Kick
:kick:
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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
269. *kick*
:kick:
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #269
272. I hope your new thread is before bedtime.
:hi: I can't WAIT!!!!!!!!! :bounce:
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
273. The whole election could hinge on this information. This may be
the biggest breaking news of the campaign.
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #273
275. Oh, puleeze!
This is a mere blip on the radar. I bet it won't even be carried by a major media outlet.

The story is just not that compelling.
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