Something that shouldn't get lost in the talk of atrocities...

[A_Possum]

These things happened, oh yes. My Lai and the rest. But what should not get lost is what these GI's were faced with--not only the mines, the trip-wires, the stakes, all of the terrifying moments when soldiers were one step from horror, when they saw their buddies blown apart or when they themselves took that wrong step, looked down and had no legs...added to this was a terror campaign by the VC...Americans would find things like their captured buddies' testicles hung on trees, and worse. There were children wired with bombs. It was a horror-movie mind game.

Without trying to sound like an apologist for what Americans did in Vietnam, it's impossible to judge it honestly without a clear idea of what they were going through. I do not think any one of us can be sure of what we would do in those circumstances unless we have lived it.

For those who can face reading it,And a Hard Rain Fell is one of the most vivid descriptions of a soldier's experience in Vietnam. It's long out of print and only available used.

[NV Whino]

1. Regret to Inform

is an excellent documentary about the women who lost husbands and families on both sides. Had a hard time watching it... had to keep wiping my eyes.

[salib]

2. Stop sounding like an apologist

Atrocities are just that. No excuses, but hopefully lessons can be learned and remembered.

[A_Possum]

3. What lessons?

I don't really think your reply is grounded in much thought.

What lesson would you teach to those guys who faced that?

[stray cat]

4. I didn't serve and I sure won't judge.

[salib]

5. You are right, my response was not grounded on much thought

However, let's try an analogy. As my mother often commented after we were stationed in Germany for three years: "There were no Nazi's in Germany during the war." It was sarcasm, but it reflected what everyone there told her (she spoke German). They could only talk about how they were not Nazis, did not support the Nazi party, etc., etc., etc..

Now, how does this relate? Well, these Germans were not trying to say "well, you had to be there to know what you would do." They knew what they did, they knew it was wrong, and they were now denying it. Not great, but better than asking for apologies or understanding. They know it is WRONG and explanations do not change that.

As I said, atrocities are atrocities. Does not mean one cannot forgive such acts, I think that can be done. People can live on and live well. But they cannot be Excused, apologized for, etc.. It sucks, but one has to live with those for the rest of one's life, and a country in turn will have to deal with them for the rest of its existence.

[A_Possum]

6. Thanks, that was more thoughtful

And I don't intend to apologize for things like My Lai, where unarmed civilians were executed. What I meant to do was remind us, particularly those of us who haven't been through that kind of combat, that terror over a long period of time will warp you. I don't intend to apologize at all, but to try to comprehend.

I think a better theoretical instance than yours would be, perhaps, seeing someone like Berg beheaded in front of your eyes, then come across his head in a ditch, and know when you are captured the same will happen to you. Then your best buddy next to you is blown up by a grenade thrown out of a crowd that has children in it taunting you. Walk into a house that is empty and find the last American who walked in there skinned, probably alive, after he had followed a friendly civilian woman inside.

Take that kind of situation and live in it every day, 24/7, for months on end. After you have been trained by the military that your job is to kill, kill, kill.

Most will be able to take it, amazingly. Some won't. I don't excuse those who can't, but I don't think it's possible, ethically or morally, to ignore the full context of the situation they were in, either. I think ignoring it leads to the excuse that these things are just done by "a few bad apples."

Most of us don't know what happened in Vietnam. I myself only know what I've read, but it made me realize the truth of David Christian's words, "The older generation, our fathers, let us down. they treated us, their sons, as if we failed. If only they could have seen the gallantry of their sons on the battlefield."

[salib]

7. Maybe the lesson learned by that generation

Was to not go. That is perhaps at the core of the real animosity that many of the vets express, and those who put their future and citizenship on the line also express. Often it is harder to not do something, than it is to do something.