McCain was a total fuckup in the Navy

[stevedeshazer]

The son and grandson of admirals who, despite their diminutive statures, stood tall above John Sidney McCain III.

Exhibit A: From Carl Bernstein in 1999: http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_mccain.php

<snip>

When John Sidney McCain III was born. in 1936, there was little question that this grandson of an admiral and son of an admiral would attend the Naval Academy. At Episcopal High, the prep school across the Potomac from Washington, he seemed like anything but a clean-cut prospect for the academy. Fixated on women, as he would be for much of his life, McCain once managed to get arrested for shouting "Shove it up your ass!" at two older girls who judged his attempt to pick them up somewhat crude. McCain was "a hard-rock kind of guy, a tough, mean little fucker," according to an Episcopal classmate quoted in The Nightingale's Song, a book written by fellow Annapolis graduate and Vietnam veteran Robert Timberg. The book, about five graduates of the Naval Academy—McCain, Oliver North, John Poindexter, James Webb, and Robert McFarlane —is a generational classic and an indispensable source of material on McCain's life.

<snip>

As for John McCain III's years at Annapolis, "I hated the place, and in fairness the place wasn't all that fond of me either," he has written m his memoir, Faith of My Fathers, published in September. As Timberg notes in his book, McCain was a mess—"shoes unshined. late for formation, talking in ranks, room in disorder, gear improperly stowed." He devoured literature which had nothing to do with his course-work, but "I was adept at cramming for exams, and blessed with friends who did not seem to mind too much my requests for urgent tutorials." He was a jock and—as he acknowledges today—"a wild one" who developed a reputation for escorting one beautiful woman after another off campus. He and his fellow Annapolis revelers were known as "the Bad Bunch."

Always on the edge of flunking out, McCain finished fifth from last in his class. Poindexter—the future national-security adviser—finished first. After graduation, McCain went out of his way to choose a naval career that was as different from his father's as imaginable. "Actually," he says, "I wanted to be a navy pilot, because I thought it was a pretty exciting life. I wasn't interested in being on a destroyer or a battleship or a submarine. I thought being a navy pilot would be a lot of fun. But that was the extent of my ambitions. It was not to reach higher rank or to advance up the ladder. I just thought it would be a great life, and it turned out indeed it was."

But it was also extremely hazardous. Flight school at Pensacola was a riot of hard playing for the young flier, whose Corvette was most likely to be found parked by a beach or at Trader John's, a strip bar. He dated a dancer nicknamed "Marie, the Flame of Florida" before moving on to advanced flight training in Corpus Christi, where his carousing and womanizing evidently took a toll on his flying. He found himself literally underwater after his training jet stalled and he couldn't make land. Knocked out as his plane smacked into Corpus Christi Bay, he regained consciousness on the bottom and struggled to the surface. While deployed in the Mediterranean in the early 1960s, he hit some power lines while flying too low over Spain. "I liked the squadron life," he recalls. "We'd be in port for a week, 10 days. I was single. I mean, it was wonderful. I was embarrassed to take my paycheck."

McCain also renewed a friendship with Carol Shepp, a divorced mother of two who had been married to one of his Annapolis classmates. A tall, attractive former model, she was exactly what Mc-Cain's friends agreed he needed—someone smoother around the edges than he but full of life. In July 1965 they were married. That fall he was flying back to Norfolk solo when the engine of his plane failed and he had to bail out just before it plowed into a tidal stand of trees. It was his third accident, but, miraculously, he floated onto a deserted beach with only minor injuries.

Undeterred, he took his work more seriously and began steeling himself for Vietnam. In 1966, McCain was sent to Yankee Station in the Gulf of Tonkin at a moment when the air war against North Vietnam was intensifying. His first combat missions were flown solo in an A-4 Skyhawk carrying 500- and 1,000-pound bombs. Each flight off the deck of the U.S.S. Forrestal was an hour of sheer excitement and unspeakable terror. "The trick is to control fear," he explains. "You know, you should be afraid. You'd be crazy not to be. But the fear can help you because it heightens your awareness, it heightens your senses. But it's also exhilarating. When a surface-to-air missile misses you, you know, you're afraid. When you drop your bombs on the target and get back, you feel great."

***

The entire article, written nine years ago, pretty much blows McCain's credibility to smithereens. I recommend all the McCain defenders here give it a read.

We've had enough of President Fuckup already, we don't need another.

[Cha]

1. The m$$fm is good at covering up military fuckups

and dragging down real patriots.

[EVDebs]

44. It'd be like electing Gen Custer president, huh ? In the meantime...

McCain would be busy covering up for the missing $2.3 TRILLION
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/m...

which is why the MSM and M/I complex are so desparate to keep Obama from investigating the crimes of Bush & Co.

[Cha]

59. Yeah, like Colonel Sanders in charge of

of the chickens.

[jmowreader]

71. Please don't say things like that

Unlike John McCain, Custer wasn't a total fuckup. He did well in most of his Civil War engagements and was known as an "aggressive" cavalry commander. Also, you're probably unaware (I didn't know this either until about two minutes ago) that Custer's forces at the Battle of the Little Big Horn went in at a 4:1 disadvantage. No wonder he got waxed.

McCain, OTOH...that fucker couldn't lead a platoon of kindergarteners to Dairy Queen.

[bigbrother05]

99. Aggressive isn't the half of it

Custer ignored orders and moved his men into a fatal position without reinforcements. He had always been able to come out on top due to reckless abandon and superior forces. The primary source of his fame after his "last stand" was a glowing account written by his widow.

[The Wielding Truth]

95. Or another George W.Bush?Handed everything & accomplishing

"Always on the edge of flunking out, McCain finished fifth from last in his class. Poindexter—the future national-security adviser—finished first. After graduation, McCain went out of his way to choose a naval career that was as different from his father's as imaginable. "Actually," he says, "I wanted to be a navy pilot, because I thought it was a pretty exciting life. I wasn't interested in being on a destroyer or a battleship or a submarine. I thought being a navy pilot would be a lot of fun. But that was the extent of my ambitions. It was not to reach higher rank or to advance up the ladder. I just thought it would be a great life, and it turned out indeed it was."
hing.

[WCGreen]

104. Exactly...

[EVDebs]

117. That's right, one of Sean Hannity's screaming points is Obama hasn't "accomplished" anything

That's right, one of Sean Hannity's screaming points is Obama hasn't "accomplished" anything whereas McSame is supposed to have gotten stuff done. Like what ? Staying out of jail during the Keating Five S&L disaster ? THAT'S some accomplishment.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Won't matter - DUers will still defend him. They like ripping Obama more.

[roguevalley]

50. shhh! you're not supposed to critically review someone's military

record. somehow that is like swiftboating. Apparently.

[Kdillard]

3. Kicking

[NattPang]

4. That's the last thing we need; another f*ckup!

[Masterofarts11]

5. Yes He was bottom of his class

In his academy.

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. He was also at the bottom of the ocean

bottom of his class and the bottom of intellectual curiosity.
McCain's media imagine is a fabrication. He is a petty, self serving hollow man.

Welcome to DU and I also kick and nominate this thread.

[Whisp]

11. and the bottom of the barrel.

DUers defending McCain?



I'll bet I know which ones.

[nikto]

60. Gosh, are we...

Swift-Planing the old coot?

[nikto]

63. Oh, I forgot...

In "Swift-ing" anything,
TRUTH isn't allowed.

So, in answering my own question,
NO, we're NOT "SwiftPlaning" 'Ole McPain.

Except for the part about his *Vietnamese
Teen-age--drugAddict-Love-Child
on WELFARE!!*






______________________
*(Source: Rove2000)

[spag68]

92. Not exactly the bottom

Fifth from the bottom. IMHO we should stop wasting time on this as it is old news. If you want to learn some more, read Sailors to the End, by Gregary A Freeman. I was in the Navy and McSame is a blight on the academy and the Navy as a whole.

[FMArouet]

36. A meme: bottom one-percenter

[hay rick]

121. when mediocrity is not enough

Bush received more notice for his "gentleman's C's." Bottom one-percenter is more memorable (and damning) than "fifth from the bottom." It's also generous- it gives McCain almost a half-percent bonus.

[jaysunb]

7. This is not "news"......

yet.

Think September.

[stevedeshazer]

16. I'm thinking late October

Now that ya mention it.

[Brigid]

8. Ok, so . . .

McBush couldn't clean his room, shine his shoes, show up for formation, or keep quiet when he got there? I knew that stuff before I even got to Marine Corps boot camp. My parents taught me. It's called "parenting."

[Thothmes]

119. You have obiously never

been aboard a ship of the United States Navy. That was pretty much how all officers serving on ships at the time lived. It has change somewhat since the 70s.

[thewiseguy]

9. CNN was talking about it two days ago

They mentioned that he was a party boy and a womanizer when he was in the academy. So he failed a test and he had one last chance, but the night before he went out and partied and yet he somehow persuaded the commanders to keep him.

Most probably due to who his dad was...

[hisownpetard]

35. Hmm - let's see: a party-boy, a no-show, a wanton flirt, not too bright in school, somehow

managed to get help from others, wanted to match up to his father and grandfather...

well, gee, I don't think this country has ever seen anyone like that.

Oh, wait...

[Loubonilla]

73. McCain was below average

I'd have to agree on that statement: below average when it comes to military talent.

[stevedeshazer]

10. Also from the article

<snip>

* He voted against campaign-finance reform in 1987 and 1988—and didn't support the concept until 1990, shortly after the Keating story broke. (True.)
* Despite owning more than $1 million worth of stock (with his wife) in the family Anheuser-Busch distributorship, in 1991 he did not recuse himself from deliberations in which the Commerce Committee refused to take up container-recycling legislation opposed by the beverage industry, including Anheuser-Busch. (McCain, who was not then committee chairman, responds rather lamely that he regarded container recycling as an environmental question.)
* While presenting himself as an environmentalist in speeches and op-ed pieces, he has consistently been ranked near the bottom of the League of Conservation Voters' list of environmentally friendly members of Congress. (McCain maintains that his conservation record, especially in regard to the Grand Canyon and wilderness protection, is admirable.)
* Until he began thinking about national office, he consistently opposed gay rights—to the extent that he spoke at a 1993 fundraiser for Oregon's anti-gay-rights initiative. (McCain produces a copy of his speech, in which he excoriated "the party of Lincoln" for not being nearly inclusive enough and for ignoring gays, blacks, and the poor.)

[IndianaJones]

12. and quite possibly a traitor as well. nt.

[RamboLiberal]

14. From OP article - bet most of us would've signed that confession as well

Told he was guilty of "black crimes," he was beaten with such savagery that several ribs were broken, some of his teeth knocked out, and his injured leg battered anew. Then ropes were tied to his disfigured arms and tightened behind his back until the pain was unbearable. For the next several days, he was beaten repeatedly and told to confess. Collapsing to the cement floor from a fist in the face, he broke his arm again on a bucket that was his toilet. Again, the torture ropes were administered. After each beating, he slipped in and out of consciousness, lying in his own waste, given no water. After a week he could take no more. "Fearing the close approach of my moment of dishonor," McCain writes in his memoir, he tried to hang himself with his shirt. "Every man has a breaking point," he wrote. "I had reached mine."

He worked on a "confession," using stilted Communist jargon, elemental misspellings, and obvious grammatical errors that would indicate coercion. But after a 12-hour interrogation, McCain was made to sign a statement which said, "I am a black criminal and I have performed deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life."

Signing that confession, McCain says today, was the worst experience of his life. He insists that he still feels remorse for failing to hold out. "I'll never get over it," he says.

Sorry, I can't call him a traitor on this.

[IndianaJones]

33. he divulged information to the enemy before he was tortured. nt.

[awoke_in_2003]

40. And how exactly do we know that?

No, we really need to stay away from the prison camp meme and stick to the facts: He was a fuck up as a student, a fuck up as a pilot, and a womanizer. At least that stuff is verifiable.

[IndianaJones]

52. because he wrote an article and a book stating as much. nt.

[Zynx]

62. This discussion has no relevance to the campaign.

Everyone will give him the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Just leave it alone.

[Major Hogwash]

69. Sure it does. Everything McCain has said or done has relevance when running for President.

The fact that Magoo has lied about his naval exploits is not news to those of us who were following the 2000 campaign.
The fact that Magoo wants to be Bush's lap dog and run a 3rd Bush term is not news either.

Just the same the character of the man is just as important when choosing a President as any other quality.

And Magoo is a liar.

His own words contradict what he is saying today about the Iraq War.
If the Paris Peace Accords had not been successful in 1973, Magoo would still be rotting in a POW camp in Vietnam.

Yet, Magoo thinks the Paris Peace Accords was a mistake!!
And he has said so many times over the last 30 years.
Magoo has been a member of Congress for 26 years.
Yet Magoo has changed what he says now from what he said then about his own service!!

[BrklynLiberal]

67. While his behavior as a pow may not disqualify him for Pres office, it sure as hell does nothing

to make him more qualified for the office.

[1Hippiechick]

77. His supporters would disagree - "at least he served." What did Obama do?" Can't you hear that BS?

[BrklynLiberal]

82. Since he was born in 1961, he would not have served in Nam.

[1Hippiechick]

87. Other conflicts since Nam...... n/t

[raebrek]

110. One of the problems from previous wars

I want to say that it was a lessons learned from WWII and Korea. Were that they had to train soldiers how to give up some information so that they didn't die in captivity. That is one of the reasons that they have SEER school these days. The interrogators will get the information they want if they beat you long enough. The idea is to know when to hold them and when to fold them. That is what I was told before SEER school.


Raebrek!!!

[autorank]

13. k*r Thanks Steve

What an insight. Just like Bush, he thinks lots of important things are a joke.

Wonderful! What will the rogue elite faction, which rules us, think up next? Hulk Hogan for President?

[Pierre.Suave]

27. Watch the movie Idiocracy...

Not too far from Hulk Hogan there...

[RNdaSilva]

15. Could make a "fun" r-rated movie...one of these days.

[ColbertWatcher]

17. What McCain defenders?

Thank you for posting, and I'm gonna read it all anyway.

[Mabus]

18. He was also good a crashing planes

I think I read that he crashed five of them in his career. If history is any indication, Bush used his presidency to drive us drunkenly into the the ditch, so I guess this means that McCain's past indicates that he would send us into a quick nosedive, not be able to pull out and we'll all go down with him.

[caraher]

51. Three for sure

The ones mention in the OP he lost for sure, and the one in Spain is inexcusable (one might forgive a training accident or mechanical failure, which the two in the States arguably were).

One plane lost when he was in the cockpit was consumed in the Forrestal fire. There is an account out there that claims McCain did something that resulted in a rocket on an other aircraft firing on the flight deck, but the source is the Washington Times and it first came out when the ultra-right were honing their Swift Boat techniques in the 2000 primary against Bush, so I consider it highly untrustworthy.

Plane #5 was the one that was shot down. It's hard to blame someone for losing a plane in combat absent a detailed story of gross incompetence; I haven't yet read an account of the shootdown that would substantiate this.

I also hope DUers are smart enough to distinguish between "defending McCain" and calling bullshit on poorly-supported claims. There's no shortage of good ammo in the fight against McSame, as others have pointed out. Every time we level a charge that's hard to support (even if true) those we hope to persuade will give less credibility to our other arguments.

Focus, people, focus!

[BearSquirrel2]

54. He crashed 3 ...

He lost 3 planes to what can be argued as pilot error.

Plane 4 was lost on the Forrestall. Some claim he wet started his engine sending a plume of flame into the guy behind him with ignited a rocket which set the carrier on fire. Some claim his transfer afterward is proof. But I get the idea that the Forrestall was in no shape to launch and receive aircraft after the fire so perhaps all the pilots were transferred.

Plane 5 he was shot down after his bombing run. You can't blame a guy for that.

No doubt, McCain was not a good aviator having lost so many planes. I think everyone has to be careful about criticizing McCain's service precisely because it doesn't have anything to do with being President. You will seem like you're just picking on an old man who got the shit kicked out of him at the Hanoi Hilton.

[RamboLiberal]

65. On the Forrestal there was no plane behind McCain's

All the planes involved had their jet exausts facing the ocean. The one that fired the rocket was aft and on the opposite side of the deck of McCain's jet.

Lookup DU'er CherokeeProgressive who was a aircraft carrier flight deck sailor who explained how the Forrestal accident wasn't McCain's fault. He had some posts last week on this.

[Major Hogwash]

70. The official report doesn't say that.

And I don't care what CherokeeProgressive said about it.

If Magoo wasn't at fault for the Forrestal incident, then why was he transferred off ship that night?
End of story.

You guys really need to read the official report that the Navy did on this rather than rely on someone posting on the internet.

[caraher]

106. How do we get this report? My understanding is that it's classified.

I've watched video of the fire, and unless multiple sources are deliberately mis-identifying McCain's plane his Skyhawk was on the port side of the deck, pointed in. This is completely inconsistent with the "wet start" allegation that McCain's carelessness setting off the Phantom's Zuni. Even if that was a hobby of his the plane was simply not oriented properly for this story to be true.

[bertman]

115. Major, I would love to see that report. Apparently you have seen it. Where do I go to get a look??

I saw the video and agree with caraher that it looks like McAnus' planus' anus was pointing in the wrong direction to have started that disaster.

This is the Captain, out.

[BearSquirrel2]

118. I saw the video as well ...

I saw the video as well and this same critique. So at this point I think this claim is pretty shaky. Though, the film is so messed up that it's difficult to tell. The official story is the Zuni rocket streaked across the deck and hit McCain's plane. I really couldn't see anything from the video.

However, there is likely SOME reason why McCain was immediately transferred off the Forrestall. Apparently, the other pilots stuck around. In any case, the deal isn't worth pursuing. If there was any evidence that connected John Jr. to a fire that killed 123 people, do you really think that Admiral McCain would allow it to survive? If the sailors on the Forrestall hadn't come out before this against McCain, what is the chance that they will now?

Remember, the Swift Boat smear didn't magically appear in 2004. Nixon had that asshole over to the White House to bash Kerry way back in the day. The bulk of the Swift Boaters had been intact for 30 years.

[1Hippiechick]

78. Go to McBomb's website - he is actually NARRATING the Forestal incident..

[TexasObserver]

19. Yes, McCain was a total fuckup in the Navy.

From the first day he stepped onto the Naval Academy campus on.

[Major Hogwash]

20. Great post. McCain has a long history of fucking up and then lying about it later.

The Keating 5 is another example of how McCain looked at the world as if he owned it.

[Tutonic]

21. Still fixated on women--remember Vicki? Also he has a serious

gambling problem. Charlie Black has gotten pledges from MSM to bury this story in exchange for scoops, etc. Swears like a sailor--of course he was one. Has been overheard by strangers to call blacks, hispanics, Vietnamese, Chinese, Muslims and women a host of impolite terms. And of course as everyone knows now he likes physical confrontations. Has been involved in several during the last ten years. Oh yeah, has had several cancerous growths removed during the last seven months. What do you think he's really doing in South America? Hows that for a 71 year old grandfather?

[Rose Siding]

22. WWTB

way worse than bush

These 8 yrs have been the frying pan. A McC administration would be the fire.

[NatBurner]

23. figures.

he represents, after all, bush's 3rd term

[Peregrine Took]

24. Sounds like 21st century presidential material to me.

[dccrossman]

25. K&R

Scream it from the mountain tops!

[uponit7771]

26. Graduated 5th from the bottom of 880!!! This should be on the table, HOW DID HE GET A PLANE?

[Auggie]

58. That jumped out at me too

[Hoof Hearted]

64. He was the only little fart small enough to fit the last flight suit they had available?

Think "The Brady Bunch" "Adios, Johnny Bravo"

[Seedersandleechers]

75. Actually it was

894 out of 899.

[Misskittycat]

28. The personality of a military pilot is likely ill-suited for the presidency.

Even a pilot as unskilled as McCain must have a risk-taking personality who enjoys living on the edge and also relishes the thrill of a highly dangerous mission.

This is not the personality type we want with a finger on the nuclear button.

[Captain Hilts]

47. Bush, Rumsfeld and Gen. Myers - all pilots - decided invading Iraq was a Good Idea. NOT. nt

[Thothmes]

113. McCain was not unskilled as a pilot

He was carrier qualified. I spent my Navy career as a black shoe, never had a lot of use for fliers. Generally considered them egotistical and arrogant.
But, qualified carrier pilots are skilled airmen, no matter how you put it. Try to catching #3 wire on a moving air field at night in an aircraft that falls out of the sky at less than a 100 miles an hour, is not a task for an unskilled airman. Come in just a little high and miss that wire means that you have about 150 ft. to get that aircraft back up to a speed that will hold it in the sky as you loose the carrier deck from under your landing gear, or go for a swim. Come a bit low and you smash in aircraft into 75,000 tons of very unyielding steel. I do not know how many cat shots or arrested landings McCain had in his flying career, I would guess a couple of hundred at least. He was a skilled pilot where it counted, he could get an fully armed aircraft off of an carrier deck than, with one exception, get it back on board that carrier to be refueled and rearmed for another mission. That does require a skill level that most in the aviation community do not reach.

[suston96]

29. By all means, keep trashing McCain's military service.......

....trashing Bush's National Guard service really worked also.....didn't it.......?

[speedoo]

31. Getting the truth out is not "trashing".

Either in the case of McCain or Bush.

[suston96]

34. Truth? We got the truth out on Bush's ANG service and what happened?......nt

[speedoo]

42. Not much, but that's no reason to suppress the truth.

The inaction re. Bush's BS ANG service was due to a combination of things.... the MSM not wanting to go after Bush in the wake of 9/11, strong-arming by Rove, Poppy and company, etc. etc.

None of which are permanent barriers, so getting the truth out remains an important thing to do.

[suston96]

43. Look all over this board...much more wrong with McCain than questions about his service....

Questioning anybody's military service leaves bad tastes in people's mouths - especially veterans - and there are plenty of those around who are surely thinking about a choice between candidates - one of whom never served.

I would suggest dropping the war service angle while it still can be done. May backfire.

For one thing, I am very concerned about McCain's stand on Bush's attacks on Medicare on what really may be a preemptive strike on Universal Health Care - as one poster on this board suggested.

[EVDebs]

45. Correct. Just like Randy 'Duke' Cunningham, it's his connections to corruption

Like the Keating Five fiasco that resulted in a $500 billion S&L taxpayer bailout. Bring on the $2.3 TRILLION he'll be covering up for,

War On Waste
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/m...

[speedoo]

30. K&R. Thanks for posting this.

The more truth we can get out about this guy, the better.

[bow-tie]

32. Sounds just what the

"moral majority" needs. A man with no morals and positioned to take advantage of any one he can. The "excitement in danger" is what scares me. How are his handlers going to keep him away from the THE BUTTON?

[bdamomma]

37. another fratboy we do not need another one in the WH.

[AngryOldDem]

38. He wrote about that in his book....

...and he's always thought his behavior as a young man was a joke.

[rateyes]

39. And, what does the fact that the Repukes nominated him

say about them? Thanks, Steve.

[kmac3]

41. His prisoner of war story gets bigger and better with age . . . .

I've read numerous articles about McCain over a fairly long span of time. Seems his story of being prisoner of war gets bigger and better with time. Sadly, it appears to be the only favorable thing he can articulate to get people to like him.

[Captain Hilts]

46. WHY do so many writers mention height???

[stevedeshazer]

55. Stature. Not height.

[Captain Hilts]

68. No, they mentioned height of his father and grandfather. Stephen Hunter also mentioned...

in his article in the WashPost yesterday that McCain was "short," - he's 5'9", which is the average.

And WHAT does it matter except that voters prefer the visibly taller candidate?

[1Hippiechick]

79. Definition of Napoleon Syndrome below:

A word often used to decribe somebody who suffers (with or without themselves being aware) of Napoleon Syndrome.

In the fields of psychology and psychoanalysis, Napoleon complex (or Napoleon syndrome, or Short Man Syndrome) is a colloquial term used to describe a type of inferiority complex suffered by people who are short. The term is also used more generally to describe people who are driven by a perceived handicap to overcompensate in other aspects of their lives. This behavior can sometimes go as far as acts of violence or will to dominate those who are taller than the short person.

Alfred Adler pioneered the psychological work on inferiority complexescitation needed and used Napoléon Bonaparte as an example of someone whom he considered driven to extremes by a psychological need to compensate for the perceived handicap of being short (although there is debate regarding the common assumption that he was of below average height).

[obamacon]

109. LOL

Short man syndrome. I suppose there's a fat chick syndrome (read: obnoxious, desperate), cranky old man syndrome ("get off my lawn"). Wow, this is fun. Psychology has been great in diagnosing these 'conditions', like when they filed homosexuality under a mental disorder.

[1Hippiechick]

111. "..used outside of medicine to refer to a combination of phenomena seen in association..."

from Wikipedia (edited to correct spelling)

My post was based on an actual syndrome. And yours?

[stevedeshazer]

89. Look, I personally don't care how tall McCain or you or anyone else is.

Further, I don't accept your "visibly taller" meme.

My candidate in the Oregon primary for US Senate was Steve Novick. He's all of 4'9". I never made light of that.

Stature is different from height, at least in the sense I was referring to. Hunter's reference is irrelevant to mine.

Merriam-Webster defines stature in two ways:

1 : natural height (as of a person) in an upright position

2 : quality or status gained by growth, development, or achievement

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stature

The latter is what I meant.

If a candidate I agreed with was three feet tall, or eight feet tall, I could not care less.

Give me a break.

And if your prurient interest leads you to curiosity about me, I'm exactly 5'11. If you need more measurements of my body, I'll be happy to provide them.

Jeez.

[Captain Hilts]

96. For president, we nearly always vote for the visibly taller candidate...

taller people earn higher salaries than shorter, etc.

[stevedeshazer]

98. True, but what's your point?

I think discrimination is wrong no matter where it comes from.

Guess I'm not tall enough, because right now I make eleven bucks an hour.

And I'm rather handsome, too, for an older guy.

[happygoluckytoyou]

48. WHY DOES THE NAVY HAVE GLASS-BOTTOM BOATS... to keep an eye on McCain's bomber

[ooglymoogly]

49. He would have to be a dumb fuckup to buy into the crap he is

preaching.

[santamargarita]

53. Yes! Absolute Fact - And a Total Asshole!

~

[LuckyLib]

56. "a tough, mean little fucker" -- listed as 5'6" -- no doubt actually shorter.

I worked with a guy like that once. Spent his whole professional career suffering from the "little man syndrome." (With apologies to those together DUers who consider themselves vertically challenged.)

[whistle]

57. The prefect rePUKE/neocon corporate fascist pawn

[jimshoes]

61. Join the GOP, the only place where

you can fail upwards.

[bertman]

66. While I think McAnus is a sorry piece of shit I have to agree with RamboLiberal about his

POW experience. Anyone who has not been in that position would be wise to withhold judgment about what THEY would do or would not do. And they have no business at all saying what McAnus should have done under the circumstances. Let his fellow POW's be the judge of that.

The former POW deserves respect for what he endured while in the service of our country, but beyond that he needs to be treated like any other candidate and examined top to bottom, warts, cancer and all. The man's career should give us way more ammunition than we need to sink his candidacy. Let's don't be stupid about how we use those negatives.

I have to laugh when I think how pissed A HUGE NUMBER OF CONSERVATIVES ARE THAT HE IS THEIR NOMINEE. Serves the bastards right.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

72. Michelle Bernard said McCain's war experience will be highly celebrated at the GOP convention

On MSNBC, she opined that they will have a major extravaganza at the convention making his military service the centerpiece and contrast it with Obama's lack of military service.

[janetblond]

74. Always on the edge of flunking out, McCain finished fifth from last in his class.

And Obama finished at the top of HIS class.

[Moosepoop]

76. Speaking of class...

Obama has it. So does Michelle.

McCain, of course, never had it, and never will.

People with class in the White House... we need that again.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. Hmph, here's how they'll spin that:

"McCain was no effete intellectual snob. He was a regular, fun-loving guy."

[1Hippiechick]

80. Bingo!

[stevedeshazer]

90. That's all they have

Except for what Fred Barnes said on Fox News Sunday, who suggests that Repubs go after gays.

[pleah]

81. K&R!

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
- Edward R. Murrow

[saracat]

83. And to think I thought we were better than this.With all the things wrong with Mccain this is what

some are using? Some of the exploits of our guys as well as their academic records don't hold up under scrutiny.And as for being womanizers, we really don't need to go there. Why the hell don't we attack substantive issues like McCain's "flip flopping," the "Keating Five" and lack of a voting record?

[stevedeshazer]

91. saracat, I beseech you. This is war!

I've been there for forty years.

I assure you, with all due respect, we need to "go there".

Al Gore and John Kerry, both good candidates, LOST because we did not go there.

And, it does not preclude attacking McCain on "flip flopping," the "Keating Five" and any number of things.

If we don't attack McCain on EVERYTHING, we will lose.

Do you think the Republicans will hold back on exploiting Democrats?

I don't. I KNOW they will.

Fight hard.

Now is all you have.

[Catchawave]

94. Steve, this is dangerous territory

You're alienating veterans, independent and crossover voters with CARL BERSTEIN, fer chrissakes.

Think about it

[stevedeshazer]

97. Okay, I've thought about it.

I've decided to ask you to provide an example of a veteran, independent or crossover voter whom I may have alienated.

See, my friend, I prefer facts over politics. I think most Americans do, too.

So, think about it yourself!

[Catchawave]

101. My husband.

A decorated combat veteran who abhores swiftboating of any type. You should provide facts yourself, how about starting with some truth...http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24518450 /

What your doing is attacking a man for serving his country honorably, veterans are crossover voters, but they're also very protective of their "brothers". See: George W. Bush

Jus'saying. There's a smart way to attack McCain....this is not one of them.

[Shakespeare]

105. When he's running on that military experience, you bet your ass we need to go after it.

In addition to the things you mention, his dubious military career is most certainly fodder for examination.

[uppityperson]

122. I know people who are supporting him ONLY on his military "experience"

Seriously. The advertising is working and needs to be countered.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

84. Now coming to a station near you! McCain's Navy! loveable group of fuckups

who will entertain, dance, gamble, and party while the nation simply goes

er

away.

[galledgoblin]

85. *giggles* er, um, I mean...

don't attack his service record!


*giggle* yeah, ok, some of that is pretty lame. stereotypical flyboy type behavior... Han Solo would be proud.

still, he didn't go AWOL for weeks at a time.

[minnesota_liberal]

86. It doesn't matter unless Obama can say it without alienating vets

And given his response to Gen. Clark's recent comments about McCain's military back ground and fitness to be president, I doubt that Obama will try.

[NC_Nurse]

88. Wow, he really IS just like Bush!

Creepy....

[uponit7771]

93. wifey jus said same thing !

[LaStrega]

102. Well, these guys certainly have a right to talk ...

of McSame's POW experience.

[Catchawave]

103. Nice group...

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.org /

[LaStrega]

107. Meh ... whatevah.

I'm just sayin'

[obamacon]

108. I really don't think this is going anywhere

I would like to see it work- because I think McCain has exploited his military experience beyond what's reasonable. And Wes Clark's points were legitimate. But as far as whats effective- I see this as backfiring. And I know the temptation, because of what happened in 04. But the only reason that tactic worked is because these smear campaigns work when they build off a basic prejudice that people already have (in the case of Democrats- perceived as less supportive of military -> can't be a real war hero, must be a PR job).

I've tried this kind of argument on a few people I consider independent and they get their backs up pretty quick. I think Obama has to go on the offensive - but working off a basic premise people believe about the Right- IE: don't care about poor/middle-class, single out a few votes McCain has made (there are MANY) that suggest this. For example, McCain voted against a program that would provide low-interest loans to workers in job training. Why? Why would he do something like that. There has to be answer- let him field it. And once he does (and few will take note of the answer). Throw another vote- 2003 voted against extension of unemployment votes. Well, 2008's an election year and suprise- he supports them. Why? Of course its rhetorical. The point being: build off basic prejudices, in this case of what people already believe to be true about conservatives. It always has a ring of truth, and forces the opposition to answer- he ends up playing defense all day long, and eventually sinks in the polls. One at a time, sound-bited - for at least a news cycle or two, and then launch the next. Just my thoughts.

[bertman]

112. Well, if you had listened to NPR this morning you'd know that McAnus was a

HELLUVA COMMANDER of the squadron they gave him after he came back from Vietnam.

Maybe he was, maybe not, but those NPR types must love his barbecue recipe.

[Overseas]

120. That's why I haven't listened to NPR much in the past 7 years.

They're far too kind to the killer right wing. And here they go, praising JSM III, contrary to the facts.

[Ganja Ninja]

114. I wonder how many other Navy pilots could crash 3 planes

in non-combat related incidents and still be allowed to fly? I'll bet that's some kind of record.

[bertman]

116. Obama's surrogates (sorta like Gen. Clarke) should be hitting McAnus' military record

Leave the "I respect Senator McCain's military record" comments to Our Candidate.

See, we can learn something from the Repigs.