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ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:47 AM
Original message
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 08:13 AM by LynnTheDem
This crap is making me CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!! (er)

WaPo:

"The new ad could prove even more damaging, according to several Democratic strategists. The ad, which will air next week in Pennsylvania, New Mexico and Nevada, takes selected portions of Kerry's antiwar testimony from 1971 to portray the nominee as brutally critical of Americans in Vietnam.

"They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads" Kerry is shown testifying in the opening clip. A few seconds later, Ken Cordier, a veteran, says: "He betrayed us in the past -- how can we be loyal to him now?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20193-20...

EXCEPT:

1) THAT IS NOT what Kerry said.

http://www.urich.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimo...

2) Ken Cordier was WORKING FOR BUSH/CHENEY 2004 campaign until TWO DAYS AGO. (or still is, but was listed on bush's site until 2 days ago!)

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:7Mtcv7gCB14J:www.g...

And ANYONE with a computer can go to their search engine, type in "Kerry Winter Soldier testimony" and find out EXACTLY what Kerry actually said.

And if *I* were one of Kerry's spokespersons, that is all exactly what my response to WaPo would have been.

But noooooooo...HERE is what Karry's IDIOT "spokesperson" blurbled;

"This is another ad from a front group funded by Bush allies that is trying to smear John Kerry," Kerry spokesman Jonathan Beeton said in a statement. "The newest ad takes Kerry's testimony out of context, editing what he said to distort the facts. He testified as a 27-year-old Vietnam veteran. He opposed a war that, at that point, cost over 44,000 lives of the 58,245 names that are on the Vietnam Memorial wall."

Exsqueeze me, but WTF kinda BULLSHITE reply is THAT?????!!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!! Kerry's people MUST be working for bush/Cheney!!!


edited for typo




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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. well, will the truth set us free. . .?
or will Americans prefer someone who skipped out on his service and lies about the wars god told him to initiate.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. breathe...breathe...
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. They are saying it's out of context
I've also noticed it's slowed down to make his youthful voice sound lower and more sinister.

Ken Cordier -- INTERESTING! Your link isn't working, but are you sure was working for Chimp? Is it possible he was working for the Chimp in an official way when the ad was taped??
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Try the link now
The google cache shows Cordier working for bush/Cheney 2004 campaign on their website until August 19, 2004.

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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Lynn, I'm still not getting it to work, but
if he was working for the B/C campaign and participated in an ad for SwiftLiars, seems to me that'd be a HEEEUUUUUUGE violation!!

How did you catch this? Send it around!!!
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sparkly!
Honest, I fixed the link this time, sorry!

Note to self: Don't type angry...don't type angry...

LOL!
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. I grabbed the relevant section from Kerry's speech.
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 07:56 AM by Skinner
I think the campaign's response was basically correct: "The newest ad takes Kerry's testimony out of context, editing what he said to distort the facts." Which is exactly what they did. But I kinda wish the campaign was more clear about what they mean. (Maybe they were more clear, but the reporter chose that quote.)

Anyway, the distinction you are making would be lost on many people, but you are exactly right. Kerry did not say that they did it. He said that they said that they did it.

Here's the relevent section from the speech:

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. His Testomony Was Heartfelt But Not Helpful In The Present Context
A country that has seen

Casualties of War


Platoon


Full Metal Jacket


Dead Presidents


Apocalypse Now

can fathom that attrocities took place..... With the benefit of hindsight I'm sure Kerry would have highlighted the fact that his testimony was a condemnation of the war and not the soldiers who fought it....

Let's deal with it and move on....
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. EXACTLY!
:thumbsup:
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Exactly, Skinner...but!
BUT!!! He went on & on and sounds like he was "making excuses" for Kerry.

Most in this country are too busy and/or too damn dumb to get what he's saying with his "out of context" stuff.

Just a nice flat "THAT IS A LIE; that is NOT what Kerry said" is what we need to be saying, imo!!!
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
5. Will history repeat itself?
How many "precision" bombs were dropped on civillians in Iraq?

How have we treated prisioners in Iraq?

WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION?

How many American casulaties do we have in Iraq BASED ON A LIE?

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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. Some of Kerry's Support came from Winter Soldier Conference
This was a meet up of Nam vets that talked about the atrocities they saw and commited...





"Thirty-three years ago this winter, more than a hundred Vietnam War veterans from around the United States gathered at a Howard Johnson hotel in Detroit's New Center.

ABOUT WINTER SOLDIER

Why did the Vietnam War veterans call their 1971 conference Winter Soldier?

The title was a reference to Thomas Paine's "The American Crisis," written to rally Revolutionary War troops during the winter of 1776.

"The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in the crisis, shrink from the services of their country," Paine wrote. "But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."

And why did they choose Detroit for the conference?

They liked the city's large working-class and African-American populations, two groups that sent a lot of soldiers to the war.

In a second-floor ballroom, before an audience of hundreds of long-haired youths and conservatively dressed older people, the vets confessed to atrocities they claimed to have witnessed or committed in Vietnam, where hundreds of people on both sides still were dying each week..."

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/winter2_20040302.htm
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Bullshot Donating Member (807 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. A political ad analyst on PBS Friday night said the excerpts from Kerry
were taken out of context. Kerry testified that he had been told, or he had heard reports of U.S. soldiers cutting off ears and other body parts of the Vietnamese, however, the ad edits that part out, making it look like Kerry testifying that he had originated the reports.

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
11. Just...tell...the...truth.
DO NOT SHOW FEAR.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. At some point the story should become the distortions themselves.
Where are the media?
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. You mean our "friends" in the media? The whores we've been
howling about for the past four years?????!! I wonder where they are. :eyes:
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
15. so the right wingers are saying its best not to expose
atrocities? how fucking EVIL.....I can't believe people don't see THAT aspect of all of this bullshit.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. The Swift Boat Veterans For Bush
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 08:41 AM by DemocratSinceBirth
want to leave the impression that Kerry was saying every soldier was commiting attrocities...


I'd like to hear from someone who was there but I would suspect most soldiers just wanted to come home in one piece
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. that is what annoyed me the most about the dick cavette
show from 1971 that was aired on C-SPAN featuring Kerry and O'Neil. O'Neil kept inferring that Kerry was accusing ALL Vets by exposing the actions of SOME (probably too many). I am sure he is breaking some logic rule of debate(which i should probably familiarize myself with) by utilizing that method of misrepresenting what Kerry was doing. This irritates me to no end!!
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My Pet Goat Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. That is serious, intentional misrepresentation...
(i.e., a lie) by the Swift group that is very easy to explain to the public. I hope the Kerry campaign calls them liars on this account.
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My Pet Goat Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. I wonder that too...
They're saying you're not allowed to report about a public conference of Vietnam vets that was designed to determine problems with U.S. operations in Vietnam? So there were not problems in Vietnam that needed correction? Vietnam vets had not earned the right and were not allowed to speak about their concerns? Do they think the recent prison scandal in Iraq should have been covered up too? What exactly is their point, that operational problems hurting U.S. interests during a war should never be exposed or corrected?

I hope the Kerry campaign does not run away from the fact that there were problems in Vietnam that needed to be reported and corrected. The Vietnam vets certainly had the right to speak out about them.
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JLuckey Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
19. From 1968 to 1970.........
Many of my friends came home from Nam. This is how we stateside found out how fucked up this war was. We didn't get it from the press or TV. It was the veterans that told me of the atrocities and the crap that the brass was pulling. Veterans like John Kerry had the guts to call them out on this crap. It took courage to do what he did and unless you lived through that time it might be difficult to appreciate his efforts. John Kerry was a hero than and he is a hero now, you will not change my mind on that point ever.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
20. WP READER REP: ombudsman@washpost.com (the reporter's...
e-mail is not listed in the WP list of e-mail contacts). The context of the statement should have been contained in the article. Even Bill Schneider, in a CNN report, played tape of the entire statement, making the context clear. I may e-mail my first positive message to Schneider -- bill.schneider@turner.com
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