Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

McCain's Vietnamese Jailer says he was never tortured

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 05:59 AM
Original message
McCain's Vietnamese Jailer says he was never tortured
Weirdest article I've ever read.... Former jailer supports McCain for President, but says he was never tortured.

From ABC (Australian Broadcasting Company):

"REPUBLICAN US presidential candidate John McCain has got some unexpected support from his former Vietnam War jailer, who said he would vote for the former navy pilot if he could.

Speaking to the BBC from Haiphong, Tran Trong Duyet also insisted that Senator McCain's assertions that he was tortured during his time at the prison were lies, and that no one held there was ever subjected to torture."

From - http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23913409-5012572,0...

BBC article here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7459946.stm

:wtf: doesn't even begin to explain it....

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sorry Mr. Duyet, our pilots were most certainly tortured in the Hanoi Hilton.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm figuring Duyet is using the new and improved definition of torture
as created by the Bush administration.

so under the Bush doctrine, there was no torture, only "enhanced interrogation techniques".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Ahhh, excellent point. Thanks for the clarification. I have such a pre-9/11 mindset.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. This is not only completely wacky . . .
But perilously close to swiftboating. We don't need to go there. McCain's service doesn't need to be attacked for him to lose -- it's what he's done in the 40 years since Vietnam that disqualifies him for the office he's seeking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The difference is...
I don't believe there are any shadowy Democratic operatives paying Mr. Duyet to say these things. I thought the same thing ("he's being swiftboated!") for about two seconds when I read this. But it's not the same thing.

I do question the timing of this, though. Where has Mr. Duyet been for the last 30 years???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Ahh! Your definition of "swiftboating" is more precise than mine . . .
I just meant "telling lies about a politician's wartime service" rather than "manufacturing lies as part of an explicit (Scaife-funded, Rove-led) campaign tactic."

And who knows there *aren't* shadowy operatives in the background? If one is paranoid enough, one could see this as a preemptive strike by the McCain campaign to tarnish Obama's image by calling him out as a swiftboater.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Got ya....
I just meant "telling lies about a politician's wartime service" rather than "manufacturing lies as part of an explicit (Scaife-funded, Rove-led) campaign tactic."

In times like these, when the military is put on these pedestals as the only thing protecting everyman and woman from the unspeakable evils in the world, any smear of a warrior's "honor" does seem to pack the most punch, huh??

And who knows there *aren't* shadowy operatives in the background?

Who knows indeed??? The timing of all this and the man's statements.... this is all just a little weird....

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. But IS it a lie?
I'm not prepared to say that it is, just on the weight of "he was at the Hanoi Hilton, therefore he was tortured". I need evidence.

Of course it would seem there is no way to prove one way or another what conditions were like during McCain's captivity, and questioning the official line would no doubt wake up a great deal of incipient patriotism amongst the voting populace. Misplaced and misguided patriotism to be sure, but I fear the net effect would be negative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Excellent question
But IS it a lie?

Mr Duyet is quoted as saying: "But I can confirm to you that we never tortured him. We never tortured any prisoners."

Is the Vietnamese government trying to re-write history? And to what purpose?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. Go to a POW/MIA gathering and tell them about the spiffy article you found...........
claiming they weren't tortured. And then mention that you might even believe their former captors.

Let's just see how that goes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. Can you read?
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 06:29 PM by Number23
This article states that ONE man, his former jailer, says that they didn't torture prisoners there. And as I've noted and has been noted by others, there is a very good chance that man is delusional or lying through his teeth. There is no corroborative reporting by either the BBC or anyone else that supports his claims that no prisoners were tortured, because it is common knowledge the prisoners there were tortured.

The BBC is merely reporting this man's claims. Would have been good of them to have a side article where they note that the likelihood of this being true is slim to nil, but they don't.

So, show me in this thread where I say or agree that McCain wasn't ever tortured. You've got your righteous indignation undies all tangled up at the wrong person.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. The reason many deny there was torture at Gitmo or Abu Graib
No country wants to say they totured. This in fact may be proof that torture is wrong at a very basic level.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. come on
this has nothing to do with patriotism.

You are never going to get "evidence" other than the words of the men that underwent it.

What "evidence" do you have that every last single one of them was lying? What about the silence and in some cases nonsilence of the Vietnamese?

One guy comes along and you are willing to say it might not have ever happened?

Seems to me like your skepticism only flows one way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
47. Altho McCain broke both arms and a leg in the crash, he was indeed tortured, immediately!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. This is not where we want to go against McCain
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. By the republican definition of torture
he's right, McCain wasn't tortured
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
11. If we need to question his honor
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 07:07 AM by Jake3463
Talk about his first wife and his behavior when he got home towards her.

This is out of bounds in my opinion. Attacking a POW on his story of imprisonment when it is backed up by many other POWs will win us no friends, voters, or respect.

The Viet Cong treated our prisoners with the same respect that we treated theirs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. So are you saying...
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 07:20 AM by Number23
that the BBC and the ABC (who are the ones reporting this story. Not me, or some pajama-clad blogger, or some DNC-affiliated organization) should NOT do any reporting or investigating of this story?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dems_rightnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. Yes, I'd say that.
Torture at the Hanoi Hilton is well-documented. So when one crackpot 30 years later says it didn't happen, I'd dismiss it without a second thought.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Okay
I can dismiss it, but that certainly does not mean it won't be news. This is the BBC. Their stories are taken very seriously.

I question the timing and even the validity of the story, but I certainly don't question its newsworthiness. We should definitely know in the coming months whether the American news media considers this a news story as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dems_rightnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #48
56. Question the validity but not the newsworthiness?
If you question the validity, then sort of by definition you have concern that it's "made up". Which is almost certainly the case.

If it's fiction, it's not newsworthy.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. I question the validity of the man's statements
But there is no question that a man who served as one of McCain's captors saying that John McCain was not tortured in Vietnam is news. That goes without saying. And I think any news pieces that prove that what he's saying is not true are equally newsworthy.

When George Bush says he's committed to American civil liberties or bringing down gas prices, there is no question that this is news. Is it true? I seriously doubt it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. Or his writing off remaining POW's to normalize relations in Vietnam
http://www.newsweek.com/id/94827

This is why McCain has lost a shitload of support from veterans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #30
58. That is just crap
We have found the remains of numerous soldiers due to normalization. There were no POW's left in Vietnam. It is a myth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
14. Right. And the NVA never killed thousands of people
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 07:23 AM by old mark
in HUE. it was the brutal Americans.(sarcasm)
The Vietnamese (then the North Vietnamese) were fucking liars then, and they are no better now.


mark
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. The kind of torture Mcsame went through is easy enough to detect
and I believe it's been well proven medically that what he said was done to him WAS done to him.

I agree, we can blast this asshole on MANY other things, but this is not one, nor would I even want it to BE one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. Right, and zhere has never been an eshcape from Stalag 13!
I'm sure the official party-line response to questions about torturing American POWs is that "no one was ever subjected to torture." He's probably repeated this line dozens of times. Why is it strange that he'd say it again when asked?

It's not atypical for people to compartmentalize unpleasant things, to fudge the facts. I suspect that a lot of what this man says about McCain is true. Just not the stuff that's difficult to face up to, all these years later.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
17. Our government officials make similar claims about our prisoners
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Excellent point
Our government officials make similar claims about our prisoners

Nicely said. But this man had to realize the consequences of his statement during a presidential election year, particularly as he gave the "I support McCain for President" part of his statement. Perhaps as one poster suggested earlier, this is all part of some pre-emptive swiftboat. Who the hell knows anymore?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
20. I ain't readin' it - did he bond with his captive? opposite of Stockholm Syndrome? NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. what are you alerting and shaming exactly?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Here are my thoughts
I have to say that this post being allowed to stay up makes me think twice about DU in general.

Is this really the road we want to go down, to question whether or not all the freed POWs were liars and frauds on the word of one NVA guard? To insinuate that maybe the guard is telling the truth.

This is obviously someone attempting to make DU look like anti-soldier (different then anti-war) assholes.

There is plenty to go after McCain about. But to incite rumors based on the word of someone who claims to be his former captor, especially with the permanent injuries he sustained and the length of time he was held, is really almost unforgivable.

It is a slap in the face to every soldier who survived those camps and a real disrespect to the ones who never came home at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Bravo!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. What in God's name are you talking about?
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 05:36 PM by Number23
Why are some of you incapable of understanding that this is a NEWS article, written by the BBC, one of the world's preeminent news organizations and reported on by other reputable international news organizations??

Some of y'all are acting as if I wrote the damn story myself! This didn't come from Fox or something similar. This did not come from ihatejohnmccain.org. This is not part of some smear campaign, as far as I know anyway. I've stated at least 5 times in this thread that this is a bizarre article with strange timing, but unlike alot of stuff that gets 200 recommendations and replies on DU, at least it is NEWS. If you think the BBC is wrong to report on this, blast them!

I have to say that this post being allowed to stay up makes me think twice about DU in general.

I feel the same way about yours. Perhaps if I'd created a thread talking about Cindy's numerous and obvious plastic surgeries that would been considered more appropriate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. They would both be inappropriate
You didn't write it, but you posted it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Well, thankfully for us all
Neither your nor I determine what's appropriate around here.

The admins and moderators do. And they apparently are pretty good at telling the difference between flame-bait and a (semi) legitimate news story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. Oh, and here we go!
This is obviously someone attempting to make DU look like anti-soldier (different then anti-war) assholes.

The obligatory "s/he has less than 41,000 posts, therefore s/he MUST be a troll!!" bullsh*t. There may be someone on this thread making DU look bad, but it damn sure ain't me. Get down off your high horse. That view is MUCH too high for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ToeBot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
22. Hey, the United States doesn't torture either! (wink, wink) nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
25. This is not a path I want to go down, too many other ways to attack McCain
He served his country honorably just like Kerry did
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
26. that AU headline is pretty strange.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
29. I don't buy it.
And I don't think this should be discussed barring any real proof.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JudyInTheHeartland Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Yes, McCain was tortured
And tragically, it has had long-term consequences for him. He seems full of rage and short on control. Not the type of guy we need in the WH now. That needs to be our argument.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. Yeah, but isn't that what our non-torturers in Gitmo say? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
33. Maybe he uses the same definition for torture
that George Bush does.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. This makes me more than a little queasy.
I don't think we should go there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
35. Former POW camp jailers for truth??
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 03:07 PM by karynnj
McCain has severe restrictions on how much he can move his arms. There are many stories that people were tortured.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Smear Talk Express Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
37. I don't believe it...
But that being said, it's trivial compared to the number of Vietnamese killed during the French and American occupation of their fatherland.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pwb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
38. Don't go there? Says Karl Rove
After all the pukes did to our two Nam vets we are suppose to sit back and listen to the lies about a fake hero? bullshit. everything is on the table.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
39. So, he broke his own arms twice, and reset them? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. John McCain embraces GW Bush & his failed policies.
The short list

Iraq,

Top end tax cuts

Privatization of Social Security

Unraveling employer based health care,

Cuban embargo.

Illegal Spying on Americans

Busholini Policy of Torture

Veto of new GI Bill

Offshore oil drilling

Denying Habeous Corpus

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
42. Well, according to McCain's definition of torture, this Tran guy is correct!!
Edited on Tue Jun-24-08 05:36 PM by Major Hogwash
Because McCain doesn't think that the US is torturing people at GITMO either.

It's good to see 2 old former foes like Tran and McCain patch things up between themselves, don't ya think?

hahahahahaha!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
46. I wouldn't think they would necessarily be truthful
But then again, who knows if McCain is truthful either? It's hard to know who to believe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PM7nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
50. Then why are McCain's arms and hands are totally deformed and don't move.
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
52. Is this the new swift boaters? Vietcong Captures for Truth???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
53. That's just CRAP
that we don't need to get into, no need to stoop to swiftboat low levels. I just don't go for attacking McSAME on this kind of thing, it's just too low and also very STUPID.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kevinmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
54. That Guys sounds like GW Bush ......
Likes and backs McCain and doesn't know what torture is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 05:09 AM
Response to Original message
55. Quite a difference between the two articles: Australian article omits the caution mentioned in BBC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
57. Does this mean that McCain lied about his Purple Hearts? Some people say...
Note - I'm sure that McCain was in fact tortured while he was a POW. I'm still angry about the horrible people who spread lies about John Kerry during his campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
59. I am sure he would have said
"Yeah, We tortured the hell out of all the pilots" with no statue of limitations on war crimes....


just saying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec 28th 2014, 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC