Freedom of religion?

[margotb822]

Isn't that supposed to be one of the bedrock ideas of this nation? Why, then, does it matter what religion the President is? Or even that he has one? Some of our most successful presidents have been non-denominational. I would argue that only recently has the denomination of the president been a campaign issue, but that it doesn't translate into a successful term (or two).

Maybe this is too far out there, but shouldn't we be challenging people as to why religion is important if choice of religion is protected by the Constitution?

From now on, my response to the "Obama is a Muslim" claim is going to be to ask people why it matters. RW Christian extremists are no different that Islamic extremists and neither represent the majority of the religion.

(Check out this link for a listing of presidential religions: http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html)

[Ioo]

1. I think it is a fair question.

Because you can know a lot of things based on a person faith.

[margotb822]

6. Professed or actual?

W has professed to be a Christian, but his actions don't attest to that. I think actions are more important that words, and that faith can be a guide, but it is more likely used as a cover in modern elections.

[Fovea]

8. What does my thirty four years as a Wiccan

tell you about me?

Not a flame, just curious.

[margotb822]

9. I agree

I don't know much about Wiccan, but I can see that people would try to paint you as a devil-worshiper. I'd have to do some serious research to actually know what values you hold. And, I bet that most people aren't willing to do that (they're rather have Bill-O tell them what to think).

[Fovea]

18. Ah, the war cry of 'Devil Worshipper'

I have had a circle I presided over attacked with baseball bats
during a Lammas celebration by ten or so drunken YFC boyz from Piper Kansas.

Too bad for them the majority of the circle was comprised of martial artists.
How did that Johnny Horton song go again-- oh yes.

"Well they ran through the briars and the ran through the brambles. And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit wouldn't go."

One important fact they learned that night. Wiccans often carry staffs to outdoor circles and do not take kindly to armed trespassers.


Of course, they came back with guns on Samhain, but that is another story, and fortunately, one in which no one died.

Late addition- from my photostream.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameraobscura/109497302/

[MorningGlow]

14. Hey RP, see my reply (#12) downthread

Sound familiar? (I left out the part about "we eat puppies".)

[unpossibles]

15. such as?

I'm not trying to be overly rude, but I cannot think of any trait which is inherent in one religion and in all of its believers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. I don't see any need to play dumb.

It "matters" because a large proportion of Americans are Islamophobic bigots, and if some of them think Obama is a muslim, they won't vote for him.

It's like calling somebody a "commie" fifty years ago.

[margotb822]

11. I don't think it's playing dumb

It's just questioning relevancy, imo.

[anonymous171]

3. BIll O and the GOP have tried their hardest to make "Secularism" into "Atheism"

When in fact, Secularism is not atheism or theism.

[melm00se]

4. government is supposed to

be religion agnostic. Individuals carry around their own opinions and prejudices and to some (many?) this information is important to them.

[stray cat]

5. People also have the freedom to vote for who they want on whatever basis they want

[yardwork]

13. Since the media wouldn't allow a non-Christian to be a candidate,

we really don't have much of a choice, though.

[BOSSHOG]

7. A similar statement in this mix

that I've pissed some folks off with:

Don't tell me you are a christian let me figure it out all for myself.

My sentiments on this subject are succinctly summed up in my sig line.

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. You comparing apples and puppy dogs

The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, yes. How does that, in any way, prohibit me from considering a candidates religious views when preparing to vote?

I agree that being a Christian or Muslim is irrelevant. However, I would never, EVER vote for someone with Dominionist leaning, even if he was the last Democrat in the country. Why should I not take such things under consideration?

[MorningGlow]

12. Because some idiots think that only religious people are ethical and moral

And too many people believe that only Christians are ethical and moral. That totally pisses me off. I know lots of nonreligious people who are absolute saints (so to speak), and we ALL know lots of "religious" people who are the most reprehensible individuals on Earth.

Most of the time, if I tell your average Joe that I'm a pagan (or, heaven forefend, a witch), they automatically assume that I 1) don't believe in God, 2)don't pray, and 3) am not only amoral, but immoral. Of course the exact opposite is the truth for all three of these assumptions. But alas, "majority rules", for better or worse. Oh yeah, and ignorance rules, as well, especially for those who, when you try to educate them on your chosen religion, plug their ears and start shouting "La la la la I can't hear you!"
:eyes:

[margotb822]

16. Specifically

I don't see Muslims as "bad." I just see it as a personal choice. And, looking back through history, where was the center of civilization while Europe was in the "dark ages?" A lot of religions have done great things and some pretty horrible things. I guess I care more about the person and their actions than whatever they claim about religion.

[Fovea]

19. There is a divide between a faith

and the cultural expression of it.

I do not credit Christianity (I.E. the paracletes and adjurations of Jesus of Nazereth) for the behavior of the Piper Xtians.

Nowhere in the gospels does it adjure Christ's followers to get liquoured up and start shooting at the witches in the farmhouse, minding their own business. Now I know why so many farmsteads in Bleeding Kansas were made of stone.

[MorningGlow]

22. Unfortunately, too many people think "Muslim" automatically means "terra-ist"

That's the thing that's highly offensive, IMO. As you said, people of the Muslim faith were highly spiritual and extremely advanced in the sciences and culturally, when Christians were mucking about just trying to survive long enough to see their 30th birthdays. Hell, Islam is also based on the Old Testament and has the same stories in their Koran as are in the Christian Bible! (Oooh, I'll bet that gets the fundies' panties in a knot.) And, today, true Muslims believe in love and peace, just as Christians (and, honestly, any truly spiritual people) do. To assume that everyone who is a Muslim is a terrorist is, again, willful ignorance, and using "he's a Muslim" as an epithet is just massively offensive.

[demokatgurrl]

17. I am with you 1000 percent.

I am very disturbed that religion is a litmus test in this country. And it IS, no matter what anyone says. See how far an atheist will get in politics.

[old mark]

20. Evidently, our President thinks that atheists

should not even be citizens.
Yet he is one of the most immoral people now alive.

mark

[margotb822]

21. I would say he doesn't do much thinking

But, how sad are the state of affairs where someone who has done the things that he has can claim to be a good Christian and that is accepted at face value?

That's pretty much why I think that religion is irrelevant and people who use it as a litmus are coping out of the real issues.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

26. It was his idiot

father, George HW Bush that said atheists should not be allowed citizenship. W, as of yet, has remained silent on the topic.

:)

[Cleita]

23. I don't think religions should be free to create victims, like

with the polygamists. We have to draw the line somewhere as to what constitutes religious freedom in a diversified country like ours.

[Super Soaker Sniper]

27. The Constitution drew the line pretty clearly

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Any line drawn by Congress or the Government constituting anything is pretty much off limits. While I believe whole heartedly in God, truly believe that Jesus is the Savior, I do not consider myself a true Christian. I also believe that God's standard, not my own is going to be used to judge me. I am endowed by God the right to believe this and it is validated (not bestowed upon me) by the Constitution. And this very right is also yours and everyone else's. You have a right to practice any religion you wish or not practice one at all. What no one has is a right to like it or to prevent one from practicing it in any way they wish.

[Cleita]

28. Or how about forcing ones beliefs on people who are not believers?

As a woman I don't need any church telling me that I'm a slut. As a person who enjoys an occasional alcoholic drink, I don't want churches telling places of business that they can't sell me a six pack on Sunday. I don't want anyone telling me how to dress. If believers want to wear different clothes, by all means do so, but don't expect me to and don't be telling my government to pass laws about it or pass laws telling me what I can and cannot do with my body.

[Super Soaker Sniper]

30. Does this apply to everything

or just religion? I drive a big 2007 Dodge Ram. I do not like people telling me I should drive something else. I shoot guns and hunt, I do not think that I should be told that I am not "Democrat Enough" because I am all for an armed citizenry.

I leave the religious to their beliefs. If they chose to worship fervently I am free not to. I am not gauranteed a right to live free from knowing that religion exists. As a Democrat I am do not have a right to live without ever having to lay eyes upon a "Vote McCain" sign and no Republican has a right to live free from ever seeing an "Obama '08" sticker. Whenever someone has a right others are not free from being exposed to people exercising that right.

People who do not agree and are actually offended by even the thought of Gay Marriage will have to live with the fact that it exists and will have to be exposed to it. I believe that applys to everyone.

If someone from the pulpit demands that women cover their head or not wear short skirts, my wife does not have to follow that decree. Same thing with someone on the other side demanding that everyone driving a large truck should trade it in for a hybird. They can say it, I can choose not to do it. My rights do not trump anyone else's. Not even the rights of misguided Republicans.

[Igel]

24. Your argument doesn't hold together.

The Constitution provides freedom of religion, which is to say, that the government will not foist a religion upon us. It protects people from the institution and the people that form the institution.

A lot of people think that religion matters. For as long as the Republic's stood, and longer, there have been religious preferences and dispreferences played out in personal behavior in public.

The Constitution does not protect the government from religion, because religion is an attribute of the people. The government is there to do as the majority wants, as long as the rights of the minority are upheld. Ultimately we get the government that the supermajority wants, if the supermajority holds long enough.

When a Muslim refused to shake my hand because he thought I was Jewish, he wasn't violating my civil rights, nor the Constitution. He was acting on his personal beliefs, and did so in public. Were he to vote in the US presidential elections, he would vote how he wanted, on whatever basis he wanted. And that's his right. Why?

Because the Constitution grants him freedom of religion and, to be honest, conscience. If he wants to have his personal actions ruled by his beliefs--be they religious or secular--the government has nothing to say about them. You can think he's wrong, but you're powerless to do anything about it other than talk. If you talk in the wrong ways, it can be considered "Islamophobic". It's your right to be Islamophobic, as long as you don't violate any laws governing your behavior.

Note there are no laws governing the behavior of a voter in the ballot box, as long as he doesn't damage the equipment or infringe on other voters' rights.

[Cleita]

29. You should not be victimized because of that person's beliefs.

Not shaking your hand or shunning you is one thing, but what if he as a majority passed laws forbidding you to get food or water because of his personal beliefs, then what? It happened in Nazi Germany.

[Super Soaker Sniper]

31. Keep food and water from anyone

is not the protocol of any religious belief. Should such a law pass, religion would have little to do with it so the whole point of the OP would be mute in such a case.

[AllentownJake]

25. Right now

It matters. Rightfully or Wrongly

I doubt with my very Germanic Last name I'd be elected President in 1922 - 1944 (Exception of 1940 if I had flown a plane accross the atlantic ocean) no matter how great and qualified I was or if I had a Russian last name from 1950-1992.

[ileus]

32. I'm yet to meet a religious extremists of any type here in America.

[FourPieRun]

33. religion is an ideology, just like a political ideology, so i consider it a relavent issue.